So Paizo seems to have a thing for not statting their deities—(maybe an aspect of the deity in a future product, but not the real thing)—but some clues I've gathered point to their not using the 3.5 Deities and Demigods book. For example, Ahriman is explicitly referred to as a demigod in Inner Sea Gods, but the stat writeup in Mythic Realms makes it clear he doesn't have a 3.5-style divine rank, even rank 0. Nor is he a mythic creature.
So I think it's safe to say divinity in Pathfinder is more freeform than in 3.5 edition.
Further muddying the waters, 9th-tier mythic characters with the right path ability selections can provide divine spells to worshippers just as effectively as a true deity, and at 10th tier become almost equally hard to kill.
The only abilities associated with the truly divine (in 3.5 terms) that aren't readily available to 10th-tier characters (at least, martial characters) are enhanced senses, remote sensing, and avatar/exarch designation.
So what differentiates a mythic being from a demigod, or a demigod from a god?
Ahriman is mythic in that his regen can be stopped by mythic creatures. Though I am surprised he doesn't have any mythic powers in his realm.
According to JJ (forgot the post), demigods are creatures that have four domains and are CR 26-30. Creatures with less domains, or are lower than CR26 are quasi deities.
Gods have five domains and for all intents and purposes are un-CR-able.
So, Ahriman is a demi god. On the lower scale, but he is a demigod.
Gods are creatures of such power that they basically own reality well beyond what any mortal could hope for. Things such as being attacked by weapons from a mortal or a mortal's spells cant hope to do them any harm.
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Regarding Xenophanes' theology five key concepts about God can be formed. God is: beyond human morality, does not resemble human form, cannot die or be born (God is divine thus eternal), no divine hierarchy exists, and God does not intervene in human affairs.[22] While Xenophanes is rejecting Homeric theology, he is not questioning the presence of a divine entity, rather his philosophy is a critique on Ancient Greek writers and their conception of divinity[23] There is also the concept of God being whole with the universe, essentially controlling it, while at the same time being physically unconnected.[22]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophanes
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So Paizo seems to have a thing for not statting their deities
There's a very good reason for that
Paizo just wants players to know that, no - you CAN'T kill a god (because if it has stats, that means you can kill it). I mean this literally, Gods have only been defeated on a near permanent basis (except for Aroden, who is the exception)
That is the difference between a 10th tier mythic and a God, the Hero can always die, it just gets REALLY tough.
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So Paizo seems to have a thing for not statting their deitiesThere's a very good reason for that
Paizo just wants players to know that, no - you CAN'T kill a god (because if it has stats, that means you can kill it). I mean this literally, Gods have only been defeated on a near permanent basis (except for Aroden, who is the exception)
That is the difference between a 10th tier mythic and a God, the Hero can always die, it just gets REALLY tough.
Lamashtu killed Curchanus when she was only a demon lord. Took his portfolio too. And being a bonafide demon lord requires you to be CR 26-30. Not impossible for PCs.
Let's just face facts. There are two groups of people. The first like the idea of killing gods. It takes them back to Birthright and mythologies where cultural heroes defeat the gods. The other thinks that you shouldn't kill gods. Gods are kind of the last ultimate thing left in the universe and should be unkillable unless the story wills it.
Both believe the other group is having BADWRONGFUN and are probably dirty little powergames/power hungry GMs.
Meanwhile, This is a thing.
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So Paizo seems to have a thing for not statting their deitiesThere's a very good reason for that
Paizo just wants players to know that, no - you CAN'T kill a god (because if it has stats, that means you can kill it). I mean this literally, Gods have only been defeated on a near permanent basis (except for Aroden, who is the exception)
That is the difference between a 10th tier mythic and a God, the Hero can always die, it just gets REALLY tough.
Interestingly, a 20th level/10 MT character is CR 25 and could get 4 Domains and 4 Subdomains. CR-wise, just barely short of being considered a full on Demigod.
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Interestingly, a 20th level/10 MT character is CR 25 and could get 4 Domains and 4 Subdomains. CR-wise, just barely short of being considered a full on Demigod.So Paizo seems to have a thing for not statting their deitiesThere's a very good reason for that
Paizo just wants players to know that, no - you CAN'T kill a god (because if it has stats, that means you can kill it). I mean this literally, Gods have only been defeated on a near permanent basis (except for Aroden, who is the exception)
That is the difference between a 10th tier mythic and a God, the Hero can always die, it just gets REALLY tough.
Having PC wealth increases CR by 1.
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Having PC wealth increases CR by 1.Interestingly, a 20th level/10 MT character is CR 25 and could get 4 Domains and 4 Subdomains. CR-wise, just barely short of being considered a full on Demigod.So Paizo seems to have a thing for not statting their deitiesThere's a very good reason for that
Paizo just wants players to know that, no - you CAN'T kill a god (because if it has stats, that means you can kill it). I mean this literally, Gods have only been defeated on a near permanent basis (except for Aroden, who is the exception)
That is the difference between a 10th tier mythic and a God, the Hero can always die, it just gets REALLY tough.
The CR 25 includes that. Without PC wealth, it'd just be CR 24.
I've actually contemplated giving players the half-celestial/fiend or advanced templates to continue on into godhood.
What about being 25-pt buy?
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What about being 25-pt buy?
I know that an NPC that has both 20 point buy and PC wealth is given +1 CR. Beyond that, I couldn't tell you.
So Paizo seems to have a thing for not statting their deitiesThere's a very good reason for that
Paizo just wants players to know that, no - you CAN'T kill a god (because if it has stats, that means you can kill it). I mean this literally, Gods have only been defeated on a near permanent basis (except for Aroden, who is the exception)
That is the difference between a 10th tier mythic and a God, the Hero can always die, it just gets REALLY tough.
Lamashtu killed Curchanus when she was only a demon lord. Took his portfolio too. And being a bonafide demon lord requires you to be CR 26-30. Not impossible for PCs.
Let's just face facts. There are two groups of people. The first like the idea of killing gods. It takes them back to Birthright and mythologies where cultural heroes defeat the gods. The other thinks that you shouldn't kill gods. Gods are kind of the last ultimate thing left in the universe and should be unkillable unless the story wills it.
Both believe the other group is having BADWRONGFUN and are probably dirty little powergames/power hungry GMs.
Meanwhile, This is a thing.
But that was when PF was operating under 3.5 rules and deities had stats so the lore matched up. If they were rewriting the lore now it would not happen since deities are now unable to die from non deities. I guess they could go back and retcon everything, but they may not have the time.
edit:or maybe they allowed it for story reasons, but dont want PC's fighting gods. :)
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When I saw the topic, I was hoping this would be a more philosophical discussion.
Instead it's about mechanics. Mechanics for things that are explicitly without stats.
"What makes an engine a V-8? When it has eight cylinders arranged in groups of four & perpendicular to each other. Does this engine have that arrangement?"
"Who knows, we have no idea of any of it's specifications."
Kind of nullifies any mechanics approach.
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When I saw the topic, I was hoping this would be a more philosophical discussion.
Instead it's about mechanics. Mechanics for things that are explicitly without stats.
"What makes an engine a V-8? When it has eight cylinders arranged in groups of four & perpendicular to each other. Does this engine have that arrangement?"
"Who knows, we have no idea of any of it's specifications."Kind of nullifies any mechanics approach.
You want philosophy? Okay! Here's a quote:
"There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other."
Discuss!
But in all seriousness, to address your point, it is interesting to regard the parallels between false gods like Razmir and the practice of post-mortem (or in a few unfortunate cases pre-mortem) deification of kings and emperors in many classical civilizations. Can someone be a cleric of themselves, picking their domains to match their personality and interests or a longstanding tradition (i.e. a pharaoh)?
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Interestingly, a 20th level/10 MT character is CR 25 and could get 4 Domains and 4 Subdomains. CR-wise, just barely short of being considered a full on Demigod.So Paizo seems to have a thing for not statting their deitiesThere's a very good reason for that
Paizo just wants players to know that, no - you CAN'T kill a god (because if it has stats, that means you can kill it). I mean this literally, Gods have only been defeated on a near permanent basis (except for Aroden, who is the exception)
That is the difference between a 10th tier mythic and a God, the Hero can always die, it just gets REALLY tough.
Already noted, but they'd be CR 24 normally. PC wealth kicks them up to CR 25. Then they could do something to gain that extra point or two of CR they need. Viable options are lichdom (+2), vampirism (+2), or, to swing it close to the Mythic, they could go to a Mana Well. By standing in it to accept the power and getting the right roll on the table, they will immediately gain the Mana Wastes Mutant template, which provides +1 CR. Sure, you're a deformed wreck half-destroyed by primal magical forces, but you're CR 26 and thus a demigod. Sort of a baby-Nethys, perhaps.
If becoming said deformed wreck is unappealing, however, then you can always politely ask the right person to give you the tribal tattoos and scarification necessary to become a Runescarred warrior. That's another +1, which would also do the trick.
At level 20/MR 10, the best bets are the Half Celestial/Half Fiend templates. Both would give a +3 to CR and be fitting for PCs that want to step into godhood.
Lich and Shadow Lord would be cool, clocking in at +2 CR.
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So what differentiates a mythic being from a demigod, or a demigod from a god?
Gods are basically entities that control, either completely or simply to a great degree, primal and integral parts of reality. This is best represented by domains in Pathfinder. The elements, life and death, morality, all types of lore, the various aspects of warfare, you name it. So, it makes sense that the line between mythic being and god be whether or not they posses the ability to fully harness and control the power of at least one domain. If yes, they're a god of some kind. If not, they're not. What that degree of domain control is is kind of fuzzy, I'll admit. It's not a 9th-tier mythic character who took Divine Source 3 times, though. That's not quite the same as literally being master of an entire planet's body of water.
Demi-gods are a more interesting prospect. The term itself just means 'half-god'. So the question is, does that mean they still have to have domains, and, if so, does it have to be the same kind of domain control? I'd say yes, but perhaps they can simply draw power from them instead of actually controlling those aspects of reality. Such power could be in the form of spells that a mythic character could gain and provide to others. As an example of how this concept works for actual mythological demigods, Hecules' power was all about strength, valor, and rage. His mythic power was derived from a primal source in our minds that goes back to the days of hunting as cavemen, where instinct and brutality took the forefront. If he had ever ascended to actual god-hood, those would be a good place to start for his domains.
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There is an old saying that I don't remember who by: "Dragons are the ends of the Earth", meaning the philosophical ends; the wind, the sky, the earth, fire, etc. I like to think that a god's portfolio isn't just part of their stat sheet, but what they ARE. That is, a god of fire isn't just tip-top with fire, can burn anything, can cast 100d6 fire spells, etc., but they're so big on fire, that they define it. They ARE it. They get to determine what this word called "fire" actually means in the world, for good and bad and everything in between. A rival deity who steals Fire from them gets to redefine it for the entire world, and possibly turns it into a dessert topping instead of a chemical reaction.
Games like Nobilis and In Nomine give one a little perspective on the philosophical side of things. It's kind of fun leaving the stat sheet behind once in a while.
And I'm one of those who thinks the gods don't need character sheets.
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I was originally attempting to make a template for a nascent deity (one who, if their physical manifestation is killed, actually suffers a temporary setback), and here were a few thoughts I had:
Their unkillability covers everything except critical hits or coup de graces made by 10th-tier mythic characters with a major artifact antithetical in alignment, theme or personality to the specific demigod or to divinity in general, or by a critical hit or coup de grace made by another demigod.
They get immunity to pretty much all non-mythic afflictions, represented by a large number of free universal mythic path abilities.
Their spells and abilities are protected from nonmythic dispelling effects.
+10 to the two lowest ability scores, +8 to the next lowest ability score, +6 to the third-lowest ability score, and +4 to the two highest ability scores.
And here is where I got stumped. Different demigods are different. Not all of them can shapeshift, or fly, or predict the future, or conjure items out of nothing. I've resigned myself to creating a separate list of abilities for each domain.
For example, the Air domain grants fly 120 feet (perfect), Empowered Intensified mythic chain lightning as a supernatural ability at will with a caster level of 25th, the ability to conjure an Augmented mythic whirlwind at will and direct it as a free or immediate action once per round, or use ride the lightning, winds of vengeance, or Extended augmented mythic control weather (as a druid) at will. All of these are supernatural abilities with an effective caster level of 30th.
For a true deity deity, the constraints of physical form are purely voluntary, and they can discorporate into a being even more intangible than an invisible silent incorporeal ethereal creature with mind blank and nondetection. Think the Valar as described on page 11 of the Silmarillion.
Many if not most would have something akin to a Flash of Omniscience ability tied to their domains, worshippers, and allies.
Another very large part of being a true deity is possessing an extraplanar soul zoo.
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So Paizo seems to have a thing for not statting their deitiesThere's a very good reason for that
Paizo just wants players to know that, no - you CAN'T kill a god (because if it has stats, that means you can kill it). I mean this literally, Gods have only been defeated on a near permanent basis (except for Aroden, who is the exception)
That is the difference between a 10th tier mythic and a God, the Hero can always die, it just gets REALLY tough.
Lamashtu killed Curchanus when she was only a demon lord. Took his portfolio too. And being a bonafide demon lord requires you to be CR 26-30. Not impossible for PCs.
Let's just face facts. There are two groups of people. The first like the idea of killing gods. It takes them back to Birthright and mythologies where cultural heroes defeat the gods. The other thinks that you shouldn't kill gods. Gods are kind of the last ultimate thing left in the universe and should be unkillable unless the story wills it.
Both believe the other group is having BADWRONGFUN and are probably dirty little powergames/power hungry GMs.
Meanwhile, This is a thing.
Making up rules for the killing god part of RPG is too niche and causes too much pissing and moaning.
More to the point, vagueness and refusal to answer certain questions leave more wiggle-room in the metaplot and the Big Picture mechanics.
I can't really blame them for that, any more than I can blame them for not telling us where Nex is, What happened to Aroden, or Where in the world is
Carmen SandiegoThe Axe of the Dwarvish Lords. These mysteries are tasty little seed pods that can grow full adventure paths sometime in the future.
idk, the pissing and moaning didn't stop Paizo from bringing out an Asian setting or firearms. God I remembered the borderline racism when Tian-Xia was announced.
So Paizo seems to have a thing for not statting their deitiesThere's a very good reason for that
Paizo just wants players to know that, no - you CAN'T kill a god (because if it has stats, that means you can kill it). I mean this literally, Gods have only been defeated on a near permanent basis (except for Aroden, who is the exception)
That is the difference between a 10th tier mythic and a God, the Hero can always die, it just gets REALLY tough.
Lamashtu killed Curchanus when she was only a demon lord. Took his portfolio too. And being a bonafide demon lord requires you to be CR 26-30. Not impossible for PCs.
Let's just face facts. There are two groups of people. The first like the idea of killing gods. It takes them back to Birthright and mythologies where cultural heroes defeat the gods. The other thinks that you shouldn't kill gods. Gods are kind of the last ultimate thing left in the universe and should be unkillable unless the story wills it.
Both believe the other group is having BADWRONGFUN and are probably dirty little powergames/power hungry GMs.
Meanwhile, This is a thing.
I was under the impression that his head was cut off and thrown into a volcano - not that he was truly dead. Was that something else?
You might be thinking of Ydersius from Serpent's Skull.
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I'd like to point at that gods don't make the universe run in Golarion. If Pharasma were to die, people would still shuffle off the mortal coil. The afterlife would just be a little bit hectic without her guiding hand. Even if every god just left or died, the world would still function normally. They are just beings of PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER.
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Are gods willing to prevent murderhobos, but not able? Then they are not omnipotent. Are they able, but not willing? Then they are malevolent. Are they both able and willing? Then whence cometh murderhobos? Are they neither able nor willing? Then why call them gods?
These are the things that haunt our age.
Empyreal Lords are demigods and they start at CR21. So CR21 would be the starting point for a pathfinder demigod.
Interestingly, a 20th level/10 MT character is CR 25 and could get 4 Domains and 4 Subdomains. CR-wise, just barely short of being considered a full on Demigod.So Paizo seems to have a thing for not statting their deitiesThere's a very good reason for that
Paizo just wants players to know that, no - you CAN'T kill a god (because if it has stats, that means you can kill it). I mean this literally, Gods have only been defeated on a near permanent basis (except for Aroden, who is the exception)
That is the difference between a 10th tier mythic and a God, the Hero can always die, it just gets REALLY tough.
Already noted, but they'd be CR 24 normally. PC wealth kicks them up to CR 25. Then they could do something to gain that extra point or two of CR they need. Viable options are lichdom (+2), vampirism (+2), or, to swing it close to the Mythic, they could go to a Mana Well. By standing in it to accept the power and getting the right roll on the table, they will immediately gain the Mana Wastes Mutant template, which provides +1 CR. Sure, you're a deformed wreck half-destroyed by primal magical forces, but you're CR 26 and thus a demigod. Sort of a baby-Nethys, perhaps.
If becoming said deformed wreck is unappealing, however, then you can always politely ask the right person to give you the tribal tattoos and scarification necessary to become a Runescarred warrior. That's another +1, which would also do the trick.
At level 20/MR 10, the best bets are the Half Celestial/Half Fiend templates. Both would give a +3 to CR and be fitting for PCs that want to step into godhood.
Lich and Shadow Lord would be cool, clocking in at +2 CR.
The Pathfinder core rule book already has the rules for going to level 21. SO if you are Mythic Rank 10/ Level 20 and your DM decides to have the game keep going and determines to be a demi-god you need to be CR 26, you can just gain your 21st level.
A god can be in more than one place at one time.
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Mechanics aside, if you get drunk and don't remember how you passed some tests, you're a god. Not a demigod, quasi-deity or a level 20/10 MT hero, but a true god.
So that's all you have to do, at least in Golarion:
1. Go to Absalom
2. Get hammered
3. Take the tests
4. Black out
If you survive; god. If you don't, roll up a new character and go again.
Who created Golarion then? Were the gods themselves created?
Dot.
Also: Muwahahahahahah.
A lot of Azlanti gods seem to have perished during the Earthfall.
I believe it was just two and those two willingly sacrificed themselves to lessen the extent of damage Earthfall caused. Otherwise, it might have looked like this.
Who created Golarion then? Were the gods themselves created?
Apsu created the multiverse with the help of Tiamat. I believe it assumed that Apsu and Tiamat have "always been", existing outside the multiverse. Though I'm less certain on that.
Subsequently, I believe they created other pantheons of gods which created golarion and other gods. Until you arrive at the current setting.
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Are gods willing to prevent murderhobos, but not able? Then they are not omnipotent. Are they able, but not willing? Then they are malevolent. Are they both able and willing? Then whence cometh murderhobos? Are they neither able nor willing? Then why call them gods?
These are the things that haunt our age.
*slow clap*
Are gods willing to prevent murderhobos, but not able? Then they are not omnipotent. Are they able, but not willing? Then they are malevolent. Are they both able and willing? Then whence cometh murderhobos? Are they neither able nor willing? Then why call them gods?
These are the things that haunt our age.
1) Some are willing - some fully, some to a limited extent, and some support or encourage instead (and are malevolent)
2) Some are able, but only to a limited extent (at least partially due to other gods' interference)3) They are "gods" because of their nature (regardless of their nature pre-ascension), hence "god" becomes a term different than that which we are oft used to utilizing in Western society. Also they are worshipped and generate actual divine spells in faithful worshippers (instead of just faking it). Also field hosts of celestials and/or fiends and/or "other". Also, they can squash you like a bug.
Wow. Polytheism+Game Rules makes deep-seated theosophical argumentation easy.
(Nice post, though.) :)
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Are gods willing to prevent murderhobos, but not able? Then they are not omnipotent. Are they able, but not willing? Then they are malevolent. Are they both able and willing? Then whence cometh murderhobos? Are they neither able nor willing? Then why call them gods?
These are the things that haunt our age.
1) Some are willing - some fully, some to a limited extent, and some support or encourage instead (and are malevolent)
2) Some are able, but only to a limited extent (at least partially due to other gods' interference)
3) They are "gods" because of their nature (regardless of their nature pre-ascension), hence "god" becomes a term different than that which we are oft used to utilizing in Western society. Also they are worshipped and generate actual divine spells in faithful worshippers (instead of just faking it). Also field hosts of celestials and/or fiends and/or "other". Also, they can squash you like a bug.Wow. Polytheism+Game Rules makes deep-seated theosophical argumentation easy.
(Nice post, though.) :)
Also, the first premise of the conjecture is wrong. Gods, none of the them we know about in Golarion, are omnipotent. They are far beyond mortal power, but their power is not unlimited.
If any god had unlimited power and possessed of any alignment other than neutral would that deity not simply destroy the antihesis of their alignment?
Why would it have taken a multitude of good gods, and a great bargaining with Asmodeus to stop Rovagug and trap him within the planet? Clearly, none of the deities involved were all powerful as they alone could not stop Rovagug on their own, and Rovagug was defeated by their combined power. Omnipotent beings could not be defeated.
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Lots of power and lack of a stat block.