Goblin Squad Member
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That's a fair point. With zero MMO experience I could see terms like "sandbox" and "avoiding meaningless PvP" not meaning much to you. It's more of a failure on my part to acknowledge that not every person has played or looked into MMO's before. I should have phrased my opinion in a less condescending way; apologies on my part.
Perfectly acceptable, Shane. While your quote bore the brunt of my response, it was by no means the only, or maybe even primary, factor in my frustration.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pathfinder Online’s robust trading system puts players in control of the world’s economy with player-created items, consumables, fortifications, and settlements. Character-controlled settlements can grow into full-fledged kingdoms that compete for resources as they seek to become the dominant force in the land, raising vast armies to hold their territory against the depredations of monstrous creatures, NPC factions, and other player characters.
Which would be a perfectly valid point, if I'd ever heard of the "technology Demo" kickstarter before I put my money down. But that quote does not appear in the "Pathfinder Online: A Fantasy Sandbox MMO" kickstarter which I supported.
And even if they had, there are close to 4k words in the description. I feel like not understanding the nature of how centrally PvP is in the game, while an error on my part, is not an unreasonable mistake for someone new to online gaming.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Casual here.
I'll be honest, I kinda feel the same way at OP. It's these forums specifically that I find generate some anxiety about the game. I come around here, casually, and find so many people planning and theorizing and building. The Land Rush has been a frenzy. There's been all this activity here and I have the sinking feeling of, "if I don't have enough time to keep up with the forum boards, how will I ever have enough time to contribute meaningful in the actual game?!"
My only solace is that when the game does launch I won't see everything that everybody is doing. I'll have my own little corner of the world, where I can - with the help of a few close people I already know and hopefully a few that I'll meet along the way - carve out my own niche.
And as a casual, that's all I'm really asking for: to be able to carve out a little piece for myself, while experiencing being a part of a living, breathing world around me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My only solace is that when the game does launch I won't see everything that everybody is doing. I'll have my own little corner of the world, where I can - with the help of a few close people I already know and hopefully a few that I'll meet along the way - carve out my own niche.
And as a casual, that's all I'm really asking for: to be able to carve out a little piece for myself, while experiencing being a part of a living, breathing world around me.
I think you will be fine.
The amount of teaming, scheming *and* dreaming is indeed humongous at these forums. Especially right now with the landrush. It will be a part of the game later on, but what you describe above is probably 99% of the actual gameplay. I would not worry, if this game can only cater to grand schemes and huge, organized endeavours, it will not succeed. It is the individuals that make the game and they need to be able to have fun on a much smaller scale too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can honestly feel your pain. Having one's advancement in a video game in someone else's hands doesn't sit too well with me either. Truly a game such as this requires people you can trust which is one of the reasons Eve fell through with me. This game is very likely to require one to find a trustworthy group. I would not have looked twice at PFO had I not already been part of such a group. So far most of the drama I've seen is mostly political noise and differences of opinion between groups and not internal guild drama. It'll only get worse as peoples' settlements are sacked.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can see how people can feel overwhelmed. I know not everyone in my group is as active as others and that's okay. Those active are those who like to talk, theorize, etc. Can't really formalize everything until we are actually there in game. I want to encourage all who are casual to have fun just as much as I encourage the really active folks to have fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's seemingly having to be tied to someone who has control over my access to training taht I don't like.
This may be partly an incorrect assumption. Again, you'll be able to get all of your training from the NPC settlements for months. By the time anyone has become powerful enough to need training in the 'top tier' abilities there should be numerous options to choose from. Some settlements and PoIs may limit training to members only, but others will be open to everyone or have specific requirements. Still, with dozens of settlements and hundreds of PoIs, being 'unable to find training' seems unlikely. Indeed, given that no single settlement will be able to provide training for all abilities there will be a general need for all but the most narrowly focused groups (e.g. 'Paladins only') to seek training from multiple locations. That should inherently make it easier for individuals to do so as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is going to be the first game I've ever played in the company of strangers; since Meridian 59 and everything in the almost-20 years since, it's never been other than my brother and me. It's a big leap to try to imagine playing "someone else's game", but this is one where learning to do that feels worth it.
As always, my statements apply only to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the definition of Casual gaming needs to be defined as well.
I expected most of the table top community coming here to be able to put just as much time into PFO as they would table top. Personally, I have been table top gaming for almost half my life, and MMOing far longer.
Casual gaming, to me, is an individual that doesn't want to get caught up in politics, hardcore PvP, and usually doesn't have time to play more than 1-3 hours a session a couple times a week.
There are avenues for which this can be facilitated, it just means that you will mostly play in "High Sec" to use a EVE term. Essentially, relegated to the closest rings of the starter settlements, so that the NPCs can protect you. I feel as if GW could offer two types of Settlements, it might alleviate concerns. This secondary Settlement could be a "High Security" settlement that is attached to a nearby Starter Settlement, and that starter Settlement claim the PC settlement like it is a PoI. There by extending the "High Security" of that starter settlement to the PC settlement.
There would have to be restrictions of course, no access to tier 3 skills, you could not form Kingdoms as you are under the protection of a Starter settlement. Restricted to one alignment step of the Starter Settlement, and possibly other restrictions. Also, you would be limited to say 8 Hexes that you could claim, and limited on some of your options.
A group of casual gamers, low on time or not wanting to PvP for resources, would be able to get something meaningful out of the game, but it still rewards those people willing to risk it all for PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My benchmark is Lineage 2. If its a non-stop pvp murderfest designed for the closet psychopaths I ran against in that game, then its a complete waste of time. If its a pathfinder-esque, group centric with occasional pvp for those who dont mind then cool, I'm down for that. However I'm still not convinced its going to be anything but the former, and despite all the hand wringing and opinions thrown around on the forum, neither should any of you be. No ones played it, and there are no guarantees of anything. We wont know until a few weeks into launch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to admit that, good or bad, I also see strong evidence that PFO is being designed primarily to cater to PVPs and hardore gamers that are heavily into guilds/raids.
To be honest, as a casual gamer, this is not what I would have prefered but I can't say that this comes a surprise or that I didn't know the game would be moving in this direction. I mean, Goblinworks made it pretty clear that the content of the game is driven by the community and that it wouldn't be a themepark game. How else can the community generate content if not by socially interacting through PVP and inter-guild politics. So even though I'm not super stoked about this apparant direction, I don't regret backing it because it was the idea of Pathfinder becoming an MMO that I supported.
That said, I agree with Maccabee that it is too early to form a clear idea of how this game will play on launch day, or even a year ofter that. I am, however, going to give the game the benefit of the doubt because I see some innovation here and I really want it to succeed.
I will add, however, for any devs that may be listening, if it turns out that the game is designed to limit game content (areas, elite loot, game systems) to only those who heavily invest in the socal aspects of the game or if it severely limits the capabilities of factions who are not as economically powerful as others, I will have a hard time justifying paying a monthly fee. Conceptually, the idea of community driven content is cool but I would like to see more evidence that the game is fun outside of the politics. I want to be able to explore the world on my own if I choose to. Can I do that?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to admit that, good or bad, I also see strong evidence that PFO is being designed primarily to cater to PVPs and hardore gamers that are heavily into guilds/raids.
Those primarily PvP focused would not be able to focus primarily on PvP if it were nit fir the players performing the support roles of settlement management, harvesting, trade and crafting.
Settlement managers, harvesters, merchants and crafters would have nothing to do if it were not the PvP focused players breaking sh&t and killing each other.
It is a balanced system of mutual support. Without each other, neither would have a game to play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can I do that?
Welcome, Jerett. I'd expect, right now, that you can do that subject to versions of the same risks that most of humanity had for much of its existence.
Travelling alone, you're at the mercy of the elements (perhaps, but Pharasma'll take care of you there, most likely), of wild creatures, of getting lost, of falling off a cliff, of running into people who don't know you and thus have no reason to care about your survival--and perhaps, to their view, much to gain from ending it. Even one travelling-companion will likely cut your risk of death more than in half, and a small band can probably do quite well indeed.
Travelling with gifts can be a two-edged sword: you might become a target for those who want more than their share of those gifts, but you'll be able to use your burden to make friends. Lewis and Clark took 59 people (at one point on the journey or another) 7000 miles, and brought all but one home again; they lost him to appendicitis, and not hostile action.
Of course the psychology of those you run into in the River Kingdoms will vary indescribably from the Native Americans the Corps of Discovery met--and 59 people is far more than many Settlements will hold for quite a long time--but it's still a heck of a tale to keep as an example of what can be done peacefully by a small group in unknown places.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Two large groups having a spat does not equate to the whole community. I agree with you about drama and not having time for it. Ozem's Vigil is the ONLY settlement in the top ten that's independent. We stand firm in our independence and will form alliances on a case by case basis per settlement for now. More groups have stepped forward as well with the same stance. I'm happy to see this because it starts to tear down the Us vs Them mentality that's been prevalent of late.
It was not two large groups, it was one large group and many persons from diverse groups, a handful of which were from another large group... a group from which many other members held an opposing view.
If Ozem's Vigil is independent, you could demonstrate it by not dragging Pax's rhetoric in here.
I'm making this short and sweet because I'm cringing posting this almost as much as when I read the above quote ><
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want to be able to explore the world on my own if I choose to. Can I do that?
Did I hear "exploration"? I'm the Guild Master of The Empyrean Order's Explorer's League, and we don't have many requirements. We would set up chances for explorers to make money doing what they already want to do (explore) and to have a group of like minded players to explore with if they so choose.
What are the requirements? None, really. If you want to just wander the hillsides and see what there is to be seen, we'd love to support that. Take part in a few group activities if you want, or live the life of a loner who wanders in every few weeks to resupply. That's entirely alright by us.
If that sounds like what you're interested in, feel free to send me a PM and we can get you set up. If not, that's alright too, and I hope you do find a place to enjoy PFO in your own way. Best of luck!
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Goblin Squad Member
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PVP is least of my concern. It's seemingly having to be tied to someone who has control over my access to training taht I don't like.
Funny enough this is one of banner features for me!
I'm the same, the settlement game having very real consequences is something I'm really looking forward to. People being forced into grouping together with like minded individuals is something that a lot of games has failed at. I really like those two M's in MMORPG.
It was not two large groups, it was one large group and many persons from diverse groups, a handful of which were from another large group... a group from which many other members held an opposing view.
What was it Golgotha was told over and over... "Perception is everything"? Well. Quite.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It was not two large groups, it was one large group and many persons from diverse groups, a handful of which were from another large group... a group from which many other members held an opposing view.
If Ozem's Vigil is independent, you could demonstrate it by not dragging Pax's rhetoric in here.
I'm making this short and sweet because I'm cringing posting this almost as much as when I read the above quote ><
Well if you want to talk about throwing rhetoric into a discussion, there were not only Pax people defending Pax's actions, so it was many persons from diverse groups and many persons from diverse groups. Or you could look at it as "pro-Golgotha" versus "anti-Golgotha": two large groups. But that's all semantics anyways, so no need to try and correct someone on it.
I don't think it's necessary to cringe when talking about the arguments that went down a couple weeks ago. It's something we need to examine closely, to make sure we learn from it. Because I think we can be sure that the spat was a test run for what is to come, and if we as a community are to identify where to draw the line for keeping discussions civil, we need to examine it carefully. Why did discussions break down into personal insults and propagandism, and how do we prevent that from happening in the future?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed. I tried to keep my post short!
Like I said in my post, which you took care to quote, many people from T7V were 'pro-Golgotha,' so I find it difficult to perceive it as T7V vs. Golgotha.
The only large group that all came out on one side of the issue was Pax. Pax Aeternum, Golgotha, and Fidelis. As I said, those weren't the only people that held that position.
EDIT: And of course there were numerous people from all groups, large and small, that simply didn't voice their opinions, feeling it wasn't worth getting tangled up in the situation =P
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think the game design is specifically being designed as a "Hardcore PvP" magnet. But there will surely be plenty of PvP available for those who wish to pursue it. That said, there will be lots and lots of stuff in the game for non-PvPers to do.
I share the OPs concerns to a degree, but I suppose over the years I have to admit that without the threat of something unpleasant happening, any game would quickly become very boooooriiiiing....
To the OP:
Some of my most memorable gaming moments came from PvP encounters...some were awesome...some were total suck-monsters and I had to walk away for a while. But I still remember these moments vividly, and even chat with my brother about them occasionally (we have been gaming together for over 20 years). So, there is some good, some bad to be had from a heavy PvP environment.
Ryan was with CCP for several years and brings some good background to PFO regarding what works and what doesn't. EVE Online (imho) had the absolute worst player base in any game I have ever played. A bunch of complete asshats that are still running off many prospective new players. Ryan has stated many times this type of behavior will not be tolerated in PFO. So there is hope in both game design and company policy that your concerns are heard and understood.
There is a place for PvP in the game, but that doesn't mean it will be all you see or do. Keep reading the boards and give it a chance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that peeps who are worried about the game now should...wait. With so much of the content player-generated, I think it will be a mistake to try it before all the important systems are in place and some pioneering has been done. All of your Kickstarter rewards will still be there to take advantage of, only you will join a more complete game. So you might want to wait until OE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed, and I don't mean offense by this, but I'm not sure how people could have read the same things I read from the Kickstarters and expected "Pathfinder, but in an MMO". Granted, the title of the game is Pathfinder Online, which might suggest that, but if you read what they wrote before you threw money at them I think even from the start you would have had a good idea of where we are right now (at least for the second kickstarter; I will grant that things were still plenty nebulous during the first kickstarter, and part of the risk of backing things several years before they're realized is that not all the concepts are firmed up yet, but I do think PvP was always an important concept, even if they didn't use the word "PvP". It still wasn't at all a bait-and-switch like some posts in the past have suggested).
I felt that the PvP element only indicated that the role playing in the game would be extended to include that potential, not be centered around it.
As complicated as PvP mechanics can be I certainly grasp why the programming and design have to focus on that element. It is a challenging feature to include. And I understand why in marketing the game PvP is named so prominently.
But in fact it is to be a sandbox and the result should be whatever the players make of it. It will be up to us what the game really focuses on. The PvP is only a well developed potential that will be quite useful as we live out virtual lives interacting with one another. But ultimately it falls to the players to make of the game what they intend it to be. And to enforce that however we must. It isn't a themepark. Just because a feature is possible does not mean the game requires full expression of that feature.
We just can't ignore PvP because it's potential is quite likely to be explored, given the nature of many players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed. I tried to keep my post short!
Like I said in my post, which you took care to quote, many people from T7V were 'pro-Golgotha,' so I find it difficult to perceive it as T7V vs. Golgotha.
The only large group that all came out on one side of the issue was Pax. Pax Aeternum, Golgotha, and Fidelis. As I said, those weren't the only people that held that position.
EDIT: And of course there were numerous people from all groups, large and small, that simply didn't voice their opinions, feeling it wasn't worth getting tangled up in the situation =P
First, sorry if my post came off as poking anyone in the eye; I certainly didn't and don't mean any harm by it. I should have phrased it as a question to Kakafika, because it's obvious now that I misread his post.
I assumed your first sentence meant something you didn't mean by it by parsing it differently than intended. I read it as "one large group on one side vs. many persons from diverse small groups on the other", and I thought by that you were saying the argument was Pax against the rest of the community. With your explanation it's obvious that is not what was meant. No harm no foul, as they say.
I tried my darnedest not to post during all the arguments except to throw in some levity. Believe me, I had at least a dozen rather heated posts that I deleted before submitting when I realized they would do nothing but add fuel to the fire.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My benchmark is Lineage 2. If its a non-stop pvp murderfest designed for the closet psychopaths I ran against in that game, then its a complete waste of time.
GW has been up front that pvp will be a large part of the game but they are working to avoid a murderfest type game. (time will tell how successful they are)
You will run into some closet psychopaths but the intent is to provide in game controls via reputation, alignment, bounty hunting, etc. to try to mitigate that to the infrequent abnormality rather then the frequent regularity.
There will still be dangers from fellow players. If you try to harvest resources in another groups territory for example they might use force to persuade you relocate to another spot. Of course they might also invite you in and you could find a new home in game.
If you agree to fight for one of the river kingdoms many NPC factions, taken from the Pathfinder universe, you may well find yourself in conflict with other players fighting for one of the opposing factions.
Just a small side note. As I understand it the game is going to be released as a "Minimum Viable Product" with GW being the sole determination of whats viable (in the sake of fairness I disagree with what I believe to be there current definition of viable) and as I understand it that MVP does not include some of the deterrents to a murderfest style game (the part I disagree on) so I do hope GW is reading this thread and rethinking just how much emphasis random pvp (ganking) will have on day 1 because if it is going to be murderfest then you lose the disappointed silent (and the not so silent) and you further run the risk of alienating and losing the closet psychopaths when you start to clamp down on there behavior by implementing the deterrents after the horse is out of the barn.
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Goblin Squad Member
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cipher_nemo, I have basically no MMO experience, mostly because I can't remember what game I played as I played it for like a day. (I am old and my brain is cheese.) So I essentially have no experience upon which I can base expectations about how the game will be. That, of course, will not keep me from making them anyway. I believe that I will be playing with "strangers" that I have come to like and respect as a result of my interaction here on the threads; and, I will be playing with "strangers" that are not that.
I have no company or settlement affiliation. In game my characters will have to be associated with a settlement, but that can be the out-of-the-box NPC settlement easily enough. I expect (there, I told you) that I will have that "fresh off the turnip truck" attitude and attempt to do those things that anyone would do who finds themselves in a strange city.
Like most cities, I could get mugged. I could join a "gang". I could get a job. I could change jobs and move to a new city. I could go to school and learn something interesting. I could (and hope to) meet new people and make new friends. I also, without even trying, could make some enemies; I could be targeted because of the people I hang with.
I believe that there will be a whole lot of things that a player with limited time resources will be able to do in the MVP (minimum viable product) of PFO and that the quantity and quality of those things will grow as PFO grows. If I expect that something will be a certain way, that will be the only way it can be in my experience of it. My hope is that I will experience things in PFO that I can't even dream of right now. And that excites me to no end.
I will not disagree with anything you said in the OP. They all have a valid point of view in your experience. I even may have, deep down, some of our concerns. But I also have a great deal of hope. I ask that you have hope with me until our own experiences in the game prove otherwise. And even then, I believe that my experiences in-game will give me new things to hope for, way beyond anything I can imagine based on what I know now.
I have hope that the light approaching is not an oncoming train.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed. I tried to keep my post short!
Like I said in my post, which you took care to quote, many people from T7V were 'pro-Golgotha,' so I find it difficult to perceive it as T7V vs. Golgotha.
The only large group that all came out on one side of the issue was Pax. Pax Aeternum, Golgotha, and Fidelis. As I said, those weren't the only people that held that position.
EDIT: And of course there were numerous people from all groups, large and small, that simply didn't voice their opinions, feeling it wasn't worth getting tangled up in the situation =P
First, sorry if my post came off as poking anyone in the eye; I certainly didn't and don't mean any harm by it. I should have phrased it as a question to Kakafika, because it's obvious now that I misread his post.
I assumed your first sentence meant something you didn't mean by it by parsing it differently than intended. I read it as "one large group on one side vs. many persons from diverse small groups on the other", and I thought by that you were saying the argument was Pax against the rest of the community. With your explanation it's obvious that is not what was meant. No harm no foul, as they say.
I tried my darnedest not to post during all the arguments except to throw in some levity. Believe me, I had at least a dozen rather heated posts that I deleted before submitting when I realized they would do nothing but add fuel to the fire.
I didn't see it that way; no worries. And I was doing likewise; simply trying to block the eye poke (scroll down to the first photo) =P
I was cringing while posting what I did because I was anticipating some would read what they expected to see and not what I wanted to communicate. I actually breathed a sigh of relief when I saw Morbis's post (before he edited to address mine). I recognize I should have made it clearer for those that specifically avoided that thread that Pax had non-Pax support; anybody that didn't avoid that thread certainly came away from it seeing that it was a very divisive subject for the community.
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Speaking for a group of one, I'm sick of the argument. Neither side is getting any points for poking each other in the eye any more.
Speaking for a group of apparently six, yeah. When it gets to the point that people are even getting pissed at those of us nagging for the debate to end, it's a sign it's been going on way too long.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Two large groups having a spat does not equate to the whole community. I agree with you about drama and not having time for it. Ozem's Vigil is the ONLY settlement in the top ten that's independent. We stand firm in our independence and will form alliances on a case by case basis per settlement for now. More groups have stepped forward as well with the same stance. I'm happy to see this because it starts to tear down the Us vs Them mentality that's been prevalent of late.It was not two large groups, it was one large group and many persons from diverse groups, a handful of which were from another large group... a group from which many other members held an opposing view.
If Ozem's Vigil is independent, you could demonstrate it by not dragging Pax's rhetoric in here.
I'm making this short and sweet because I'm cringing posting this almost as much as when I read the above quote ><
I never defined what the two large groups are. I would never suggest that members of either group all felt the same way and never suggested as such.
I will say that there is no settlement or company that I'm aware of that is a part of both the Northern Coalition and the Accord. There was and still is an 'Us vs Them' mentality on both sides. I know this because we have found ourselves at times caught in the middle of that very situation. That is what I'm commenting on and this is from personal experience.
Now to your second and most offensive comment. You challenge Ozem's Vigil as being independent. I challenge you to tell me what we have done to 'drag Pax's rhetoric in here.' I want specifics on what I said in that quote above that in anyway is "Pax's rhetoric."
Rhetoric btw has a negative connotation.
Here's the definition for you:
: language that is intended to influence people and that may not be honest or reasonable.
here's the link
Your question about our independence by saying "if" and using the word "rhetoric" already tells me about your preconceived biased outlook and why you probably "cringed" to respond.
But continuing on...you ask that we could demonstrate it?
How about this. We have nothing to prove to you.
Instead, how about you demonstrate something to me and have the Accord offer an olive branch out to Aeternum and Golgotha. Ask them to join your Accord.
You want to say there isn't an "Us VS Them" mentality? Prove it.
It would make the rest of us that are independent...yes...really independent...lives a lot easier in dealing with negotiations on future settlements.
I'm over the drama and done playing.
And for the record - reading your reply was just as cringing, so consider us even.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I never defined what the two large groups are. I would never suggest that members of either group all felt the same way and never suggested as such.
I will say that there is no settlement or company that I'm aware of that is a part of both the Northern Coalition and the Accord. There was and still is an 'Us vs Them' mentality on both sides. I know this because we have found ourselves at times caught in the middle of that very situation. That is what I'm commenting on and this is from personal experience.
Now to your second and most offensive comment. You challenge Ozem's Vigil as being independent. I challenge you to tell me what we have done to 'drag Pax's rhetoric in here.' I want specifics on what I said in that quote above that in anyway is "Pax's rhetoric."
Rhetoric btw has a negative connotation.
Here's the definition for you:
: language that is intended to influence people and that may not be honest or reasonable.
here's the link
Your question about our independence by saying "if" and using the word "rhetoric" already tells me about your preconceived biased outlook and why you probably "cringed" to respond.But continuing on...you ask that we could demonstrate it?
How about this. We have nothing to prove to you.Instead, how about you demonstrate something to me and have the Accord offer an olive branch out to Aeternum and Golgotha. Ask them to join your Accord.
You want to say there isn't an "Us VS Them" mentality? Prove it.
It would make the rest of us that are independent...yes...really independent...lives a lot easier in dealing with negotiations on future settlements.
I'm over the drama and done playing.
And for the record - reading your reply was just as cringing, so consider us even.
*DE-ESCALATION, ENGAGED*
I am not going to respond, because you already know that I was referring to T7V vs Pax as the 'rhetoric' I thought you brought in here (and yes I did use the word purposefully). There was a time of confusion when some believed the issue was simply a political battle between 2 large groups; I just wanted to point out that the evidence out there is to the contrary.
We do not want to derail this perfectly fine thread by bringing up the thread that shall not be named, right?
Like I said, I tried to keep the drama level low in my posts, but I anticipated a flare-up =/ Sorry for my part in dredging this up, all!
Editted to be better...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hi Cipher, since you don't have private contacts turned on, may I ask if you are interested in transferring your account? I'd happily receive a message about what you put in and whether I might take it over.
What I like most about this post is that it is essentially a "Can I haz yer stuff" post, and yet it did not receive the expected attacks I tought it would get.
It also makes me think about the responses that the OP has gotten in general. Yes they have all been in a positive tone, however none of them except for the one I have quoted takes the OP's post at face value. I of course had done the same thing, and like many others tried to convince the OP that maybe there was something he had not considered.
That of course is based on the insulting assumption that this formerly silent lurker had nit put a great deal of thought into his / her feelings before having decided to put up this thread. He is certainly not the first person to post that PFO is not enough PFRPG. He is certainly not the first to say that it appears PFO will have far more PvP than what us to his liking.
So, I apologize to the OP for making the assumption that he did not think his feelings and or decision through. If he chooses to give the game a try, that is great. If he decides nit to, well I hope he finds the game more to his liking.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have a lot of sympathy with the OP's position.
I would have been happier with an MMO using recognised Pathfinder mechanics where, if I chose, I could engage with a series of NPC encounters for most of my online gaming time, and not worry that I might log in one day to find my home, possessions and pet burnt to ashes or on a fantasy equivalent of a car boot sale.
The interaction with other players is (hopefully) going to be fun on balance, and I can see that it will add a layer of richness to the RPing experience, but sometimes you just want to go kill hordes of goblins and steal their shiny stuff without needing to deal with RL idiots wanting to demonstrate how much better at gaming they are by being pricks.
Ultimately, the enjoyment of playing the game is going to be enhanced or limited by the other players. That's the weak spot and it doesn't take long playing online games to know that that weak spot can be very very weak indeed.
I am hoping it will be as much to play as touted, but PFO (as currently advertised) isn't what I initially expected from the game when I had the initial excitement that Pathfinder would be coming to MMORPGs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Like the OP, I bought into a kickstarted which I did not understand. I thought I knew, but it used terms I did not know. Being active in the forum I have learned more but have some enemies. They do not understand how I can be so stooped.
THere are others who understand what might be and actively advocate for special privileges.
I am not sure what will happen, but there will be many ways to play. The devs have been insistent that if you want toplay solo, you will have problems.
Coming out of table top (TT) or pen and paper (PnP) I have never water to be alone. Others coming out of theme park MMO, want to solo, but that has never been the case.
I am not sure where this is going. If you do not want to be in this, contact me (PM) about selling what you bought. I started where you are, but I am interested in giving it a try. I am uncertain how to approach that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My benchmark is Lineage 2. If its a non-stop pvp murderfest designed for the closet psychopaths I ran against in that game, then its a complete waste of time.GW has been up front that pvp will be a large part of the game but they are working to avoid a murderfest type game. (time will tell how successful they are)
You totally threw me off because you're saying 'GW' and my brain is translating that into Guildwars. Damn ARENA.NET messing with my Patfhinder..
Stupid brain cant handle being at work for a mid shift anymore.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think what it comes down to is this....
They are creating an MVP then crowdforging aspects of that product. MVPs, created with the budget that GW has, couldn't be Themepark if it wanted to, they don't have the budget to create the content needed. By teaming up with Paizo, they alleviate the need to create their own original art and background, which probably knocked hundred of thousands of millions of dollars off their budget, allowing for this amalgamation of Theme/Sandbox.
So, what we get is a game where 50%+ of content is user generated. A lot of user generated content ends up being PvP, but GW realized what this could turn into, since you know, half their team is from Darkfall and EVE. They have added two things to this game, they have never really been introduced together in a game, the thread and reputation systems.
These two systems strive to make user generated content more palatable, and with the rich magic of the world included, they can fairly easily add these systems directly into the immersion of the game. Threads will save you from losing your most precious gear, while Reputation will act as a valve to how much PvP most people are willing to do outside of feuds/wars. Without a decent reputation you won't be able to get into a settlement for mid to high end content, which I realize some of you don't like, but I am sure you like being murdered repeatedly less.
To take it further, Influence also helps to reduce PvP to something actual meaningful, since it really is the only way to to kill someone outside of taking hits to Reputation. As long as the maximum amount of generated influence doesn't exceed around a couple days PvP, and those PvP windows can't be turned on and off at will, then feuding will stay fun but expensive.
Goblinworks put a lot of thought into this system, and there are quite a few checks and balances to the content, helping it straddle that line between Themepark and Sandbox. Once they start getting more money rolling in the fall, they might be able to speed up production on more of the Themepark elements, that a lot of people want.
I would like to say this, this game will never ever been a themepark, nor will it ever trend towards a themepark more than sandbox, unless they end up making millions in profit a year. They just don't have the budget, and I don't think people realize how much it costs to constantly generate graphics, story, and coding for each expansion, and each new thing added to the game. This is why the Emerald Spire will only be 1/16th realized from the beginning....It will probably take them, depending on how in-depth they want to go, buckets of money PER level, which they just won't have right away.
I think for a lot of people, it might be best to come back later, to a more realized game, then to start from the beginning of EE with an MVP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Cheatle. Excellent post. GW definately has a leg up by being able to use an IP with such vast resources. Not only that, but they were able to use Paizo's expertise with things like the pledgemanager, shipping the goodies, CS and more. I already got an email that my mini's have shipped! :)
And everytime Lee or Stephen talk about the more familiar game-systems, like crafting, Factions, deities, combat, spells and Items, it really oozes "Pathfinder" to me. A mix of rich Pathfinder Lore, with cool new concepts like the "keyword" system coated in a yummy layer of "Old School" when they talk about Swords with the "Silver" and "Crushing" keywords.
I think people get a bit blindsided by all the awesome talk about politics and Settlements and land-control, and forget that GW is also creating a really fun and deep RPG-experience at a more familiar level, backed by one of the richests IP's out there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To the OP:
* Completely uninterested in guilds, settlements or factions. I played Guid Wars solid for 6 months years back, avoided all the PvP arenas like the plague of poworr gamurzz it is. I was nominally a member of (I think) MARA (Mature Age Roleplayers...Association?). A great collection of moderate and helpful, humorous, compassionate and insightful human beings. Was fun.
* Ganking and killing for fun ain't what it used to be in the real world.
* This should have been called Golarion Online. It is NOT Pathfinder. As soon as the blogposts suggested it was going to be classless, it was not Pathfinder. Simple.
* I have no idea how my training is going to be in the hands of someone else. Or what that means.
* I want to explore a world not get politically tribal. See how well that has worked in the real world.
* I'm happy with my backing of the project. Rysn Dancey seems really well versed in the industry and the culture. Kudos to him and his team.
* Peeps representing guilds (or factions or whatever they are called) come across to me as very strange and way too invested. It's wigging me out more than Second Lifers. There is a great line in an Ian McDonald novel (Hands Hearts and Voices?) where he states that there is an unwritten law of the universe that spokespeople for revolutionary movements must always speak in cliches and slogans. Or something like that. The crossfire, veiled and overt, between guild/factions is as demeaning to me as being present at a political rally or a courtroom. Then again, I'm a wackjob, what do I know.
* I hope you all have a lot of fun, and if you see a crazed avatar running around...crazily or seemingly communing with a flower, make sure its a headshot. I'll do my best to duck or greet the blast/smite/blow with a lurid smile.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And everytime Lee or Stephen talk about the more familiar game-systems, like crafting, Factions, deities, combat, spells and Items, it really oozes "Pathfinder" to me. A mix of rich Pathfinder Lore, with cool new concepts like the "keyword" system coated in a yummy layer of "Old School" when they talk about Swords with the "Silver" and "Crushing" keywords.
So: Golarion. NOT Pathfinder. Pathfinder Society? Maybe.
I think people get a bit blindsided by all the awesome talk about politics and Settlements and land-control, and forget that GW is also creating a really fun and deep RPG-experience at a more familiar level, backed by one of the richests IP's out there.
[emphasis mine]I think you are right on the former, and the part I bolded? This would be good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do concede thate Golarion: Online brings with it all the marketing cachet of a withered deepsea fruitnut. Tying into the Pathfinder brand is obviously a clever move. I just think the choice of nomenclature is a mistake in terms of veracity. Personal opinion, so I cannot be wrong, though I'm happy to be illuminated further to change my opinion/position). ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please bear in mind that I had not heard of Pathfinder at all before I bumped into the first Kickstarter, while looking for interesting, new RPG kickstarters. I can barely discern Pathfinder from D&D, so forgive me when I so loosely used the name Pathfinder in my argument. I actually wanted to say something like "old-schooly with dice'n shizzle" but that would look so stupid. :D
I think I understand your distinction between the world of Golarion, and the TT-game Pathfinder. Even though I know little about TT(not popular in Holland), it always intrigued me to no end, so when I see a MMO being made (something I am more familiar with) based on "dice'n shizzle" it peeks my interest.
I actually enjoyed DDO for quit a while too, though I think real TT-fans didn't so much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...based on the insulting assumption that this formerly silent lurker had nit put a great deal of thought into his / her feelings...
That wasn't an assumption, insulting as it may be, I perceived many of us making. Rather, I saw us addressing the original post in the only way we could *without* saying good-bye, by covering the bases,
By making sure, since we had no way to know, that the poster knew all that we believed it important to know. It seemed--to me--the only way to continue interaction, not an attempt to generate insult or ill-feeling.
I'm hoping these boards don't become a happy home of "can i haz ur stuff" posts, and I don't want them the home of un-addressed "Good-bye, I'm quitting" ones, either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hi Cipher, since you don't have private contacts turned on, may I ask if you are interested in transferring your account? I'd happily receive a message about what you put in and whether I might take it over.What I like most about this post is that it is essentially a "Can I haz yer stuff" post, and yet it did not receive the expected attacks I tought it would get.[...snip]
You might read it like that, and maybe that's what it is, but I know for a fact that's not how it was intended.
I dragged White tiger into PFO, and he spent a $100 to get quite a bit less than I got (More than that, actually, since the Canadian dollar is faltering again.)
He's been ignoring the forums, because they have zero interest for him. While I was in the middle of composing my original response, I sent him a note that he should offer to buy her out, in case that's what she really wanted. If she'd been interested, he'd have happily paid whatever she put in, then given his EE account to another friend who just can't afford to blow that kind of money. (We'd already discussed buying our other friend an EE as a birthday gift)
Yes they have all been in a positive tone, however none of them except for the one I have quoted takes the OP's post at face value.
I also know you are wrong in this. I did take the original post at face value, which did not stop me from making the case for why I have chosen to carry on, rather than writing my KS gift off and moving on. I'm a firm believer that people should try to find pleasure in things for exactly as much effort as they want to, then let go and be comfortable in their displeasure. If Cipher chooses to sell her kickstart and come out even, then it will be four happier people. If she decides to continue, I hope she is happy, two of us will be content, and one will never know anything happened. Both results are perfectly acceptable.