Dissapointment Among the Silent


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

T7V Avari wrote:
Nihimon wrote:

.

My guess is that you'll log in as a Level 1 (or 0?) Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, or Wizard. I think they'll do that so they can give you a reasonable set of starting gear and an ability or two to use to kill stuff. I also think they're still planning on having Feats (or something) called something like "Fighter Level 4" that you can buy after you get all the prerequisites. I think your Dedication Bonus might scale according to these.

I'll guess you log in as a 1st level commoner.

I almost said that same thing, but then I remembered I was "guessing" so I took a bit of a leap :)

Goblin Squad Member

Fanndis Goldbraid wrote:
TEO Cheatle wrote:

That isn't exactly true....

There are classes and there are levels.....

You have a specific set of skills that you have and once you rank those skills up, you qualify for a specific Role.

Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Rogue will be the first 4 roles/classes available, you slot these Roles in your Role Slots. I believe you do this through the implements. Fighters use luck charms/insignia, Clerics use their holy symbol, Wizards use their spellbooks, and Rogues their thieves tools. There is also plans for Commoner, Expert and Aristocrat.

Paladin, Sorcerer, Barbarian, and Bard will be in mid EE, and Ranger, Druid, and Monk will be in at the end of EE. Yes, there will be animal companions. Also, you level from 1 to 20.

EDIT: You can find more information HERE

Here are the implements used:

A Wizard's Spellbook (of course), which contains arcane spells
A Cleric's Holy Symbol, which contains divine spells
A Fighter's Trophy Charm, which contains self-buffing maneuvers
A Rogue's Rogue Kit, which contains poisons and other alchemical and mechanical tricks
An Aristocrat's Banner/Warhorn, which contains party-buffing maneuvers
An Expert's Toolkit, which contains maneuvers that buff or destroy structures
A Commoner's Holdout Weapon, which contains surprising attacks

Cheatle,

Those things are great. but you train skills and do stuff. you are not trapped in a shell of one class. Sure, bonuses for "concentrating" in one job category, but unlike the TT you don't "role a wizard"...you become one. and I would prefer no "levels"...which I hope they stick to, and use skills instead. Levels are obsolete.

Cheatle has it, but it is easily confused and gets locked up in TT approach.

In TT, the player selects a class and gets skills, aging rolls, BAT etc.

PfO approach is upside down.
In PfO, the player picks skills, (and maybe some form to feat or characteristic/attribute/saving roll adjustment) the character will have.

As the SKills are accumulated, the character will be rewarded with ROLE ?? (merit badge was used once, "levels") which support (are requirements) for further skills. Skills are prerequisite for other skills as (speculate) may be other feats, attributes, events.

In some cases the skill will be a common skill, and can be learned in any role tree. Others may only support a couple of trees. Some support one role only. That does not necessarily mean that one must be that role to learn that skill (but may need some "levels" of that role).

Stephen Cheney reports how this related to dedication bonus. I am not sure, but it may be that the bonus comes if you only slot related to a single role (including common and appropriate multirole skills).

So PfO roles resemble TT classes, but in PfO skills come first, where as in TT class levels give skills. If you want to be first level fighter, train those skills.

Goblin Squad Member

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TEO Cheatle wrote:
That wasn't aimed at you, but other people that list information without links on the boards a lot, and that information is either out of context or wrong.

C'mon, Cheatle. Sheesh... no fair giving away all my prestidigital tricks. I gotta make a living here, y'know.

Goblin Squad Member

I suspect it'll be like this:
You use a sword, bow and wear heavy armor, shield and thereby increasing your skills in each through usage, when you reach x points/ranks in each of those, you may earn a small tier one "fighter" bonus...

If you then start using spells and wands maybe you learn x spells and increase your skill in 2 schools of magic, then you get a "wizard" type bonus. Now you're a fighter/wizard, but not because you have those classes. It's because that's what you've actually trained in game to be.

Meanwhile, another guy stuck with raising his melee weapons, armor and other defenses past the tier one bonus and maybe gets another, nicer fighter bonus.

Same amount of XP, but one is way better at "fighting", and the other can fight, and added some spell casting.

Don't quote me on this, but this is how I envisioned the skill system working.

Goblin Squad Member

Kryzbyn wrote:

I suspect it'll be like this:

You use a sword, bow and wear heavy armor, shield and thereby increasing your skills in each through usage, when you reach x points/ranks in each of those, you may earn a small tier one "fighter" bonus...

You won't get better through use. You'll earn XP over time and buy the skill increases.

Are You Experienced?

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Kryzbyn wrote:

I suspect it'll be like this:

You use a sword, bow and wear heavy armor, shield and thereby increasing your skills in each through usage, when you reach x points/ranks in each of those, you may earn a small tier one "fighter" bonus...

Afaik:

You gain xp over time, regardless of whether you are logged in or not. You then go to a training facility in a settlement and look at what training they have for sale. If they have something you want, you can potentially train it.

You need to have a certain minimum in a relevant ability score to train a skill. Each time you train a skill related to that ability score that score goes up slightly. Ability scores (str, dex, etc) have no other functionality.

You need to have completed certain achievements in game to train certain things. Details on this are still fuzzy.

Assuming you have the needed ability score and the achievements you then spend money and xp to train what you wanted. Outside of the gaining of achievements you need not have actually used the skill you want to train.

Edit: Nihimon was faster

Goblin Squad Member

So, I don't log in for 2 months, but I'm subscribed, so I have 72000 XP that I can just instantly spend when I do log in? Assuming I've set skills to train?

Goblin Squad Member

Kryzbyn wrote:
So, I don't log in for 2 months, but I'm subscribed, so I have 72000 XP that I can just instantly spend when I do log in? Assuming I've set skills to train?

Not "instantly". You still have all the in-game achievements you have to meet in order to qualify for the new skills.

It's really a hybrid of xp-over-time-even-while-logged-out and doing-things-in-game.

Goblin Squad Member

Kryzbyn wrote:
So, I don't log in for 2 months, but I'm subscribed, so I have 72000 XP that I can just instantly spend when I do log in? Assuming I've set skills to train?

Yes, but there are walls to advancement called Achievements, Abilities, and Feats.

Goblin Squad Member

Weird.

Goblin Squad Member

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Yeah. Different, isn't it? Might just work well, too.

Goblin Squad Member

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Might.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

I think the idea is to set the rate of XP gain such that a player who can only play a few hours each weekday (and longer on weekends) will have enough time to complete the in-game achievements for a role and continue to advance in it just as quickly as someone who can play all day every day. The full time player will have completed more in-game objectives and have a wider variety of options to choose from, but the restricted pace of XP gain prevents them from racing ahead and 'completing' the game long before players with jobs and/or school.

Goblin Squad Member

Kryzbyn wrote:
So, I don't log in for 2 months, but I'm subscribed, so I have 72000 XP that I can just instantly spend when I do log in? Assuming I've set skills to train?

Your "two-months of XP gain but no training" should be able to log in, see his prodigious bank of XPs to spend and shop around for wanted skills. He/she must have completed certain tasks (kill 10 goblins, use a slashing attack 100 times, and shield blocked 50 times (made up tasks), then he could train shield block 1, slash attack 1, maybe qualify for slash attack 2 after 1 is complete, but each new skill would have to be trained at a facility you could train in, offered the specific training, and had a "teacher" available (similar to the factory slots in EVE...you could build a ship if the factory was booked up).

That's how I imagine it will work based on the blogs and comments. I like the idea. My previous post required Fanndis to go do clericy stuff in order to train for higher levels of clerical skills, which makes perfect sense, instead of "hitting level 20 and magically gain "tracking" (or some such thing).

Goblin Squad Member

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Kryzbyn wrote:
Might.

This, in my opinion, is actually one of the best characteristics of Pathfinder Online. Color me crazy, but your "might" seems to have a somewhat negative connotation, what in particular makes you second-guess this system?

Goblin Squad Member

Saiph the Fallen wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
Might.
This, in my opinion, is actually one of the best characteristics of Pathfinder Online. Color me crazy, but your "might" seems to have a somewhat negative connotation, what in particular makes you second-guess this system?

"Might" is found in the context between the intention and what will be in the game. I don't see it as a negative but more of cautionary term so that others might not have their hopes too high.

Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:
Saiph the Fallen wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
Might.
This, in my opinion, is actually one of the best characteristics of Pathfinder Online. Color me crazy, but your "might" seems to have a somewhat negative connotation, what in particular makes you second-guess this system?
"Might" is found in the context between the intention and what will be in the game. I don't see it as a negative but more of cautionary term so that others might not have their hopes too high.

I think you're just saying that because I'm Saiph and you're Bluddwolf and we will infinitely comprehend statements contrastingly...

Color me crazy? ;)

EDIT: Let me just say that my above comment is an inside joke between Bluddwolf and I concerning our contrasting opinions in the past regarding various subjects; It wasn't meant to be a jab.

Goblin Squad Member

The xp system is a hybrid between WoW-style MMOs and EVEs completely different style.

At one extreme you have people who play 12 hours a day racing ahead of casuals. In EVE everyone advances at roughly the same pace but you can log in just long enough to keep your training queue updated, minutes over the course of months, and have oodles of abilities without ever playing the game.

Pathfinder Online will make you play the game to get feats and skills related to what you were doing (logical) but also have the restrictor plate of xp accrual to keep everyone advancing at roughly the same pace.

We're actually going to have a Judgement Day of new characters with vast oceans of xp. We're not starting with Destiny's Twins, they'll be linked to an anchor character later on and devs have implied (but short of promised) that DTs will be granted the same amount of lifetime xp as their anchor has accrued since that's what seems fair to every single person who backed KS with (because of) the Destiny's Twin feature as it was described then.

At that point we'll have oodles of Twins with loads of XPs to burn that have to get out into the world and find a way to use them, then clog up all the trainers.

Goblin Squad Member

Saiph the Fallen wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Saiph the Fallen wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
Might.
This, in my opinion, is actually one of the best characteristics of Pathfinder Online. Color me crazy, but your "might" seems to have a somewhat negative connotation, what in particular makes you second-guess this system?
"Might" is found in the context between the intention and what will be in the game. I don't see it as a negative but more of cautionary term so that others might not have their hopes too high.

I think you're just saying that because I'm Saiph and you're Bluddwolf and we will infinitely comprehend statements contrastingly...

Color me crazy? ;)

EDIT: Let me just say that my above comment is an inside joke between Bluddwolf and I concerning our contrasting opinions in the past regarding various subjects; It wasn't meant to be a jab.

Wrong! Might is power and strength! RAWR!

Goblin Squad Member

Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
At that point we'll have oodles of Twins with loads of XPs to burn that have to get out into the world and find a way to use them, then clog up all the trainers.

That seems like a pain for everyone. I hope they'll let the DTs forgo using up trainers' time, and maybe even "quest" time, just to simplify it. (Or at least some sort of accelerated training regime? Maybe trainers can train double for a few months, with half the slots restricted to DTs) Otherwise it will create a serious bottleneck in the system.

Goblin Squad Member

That depends on how long it takes them to get DTs out. Hopefully it will be before the Great Catastrophe, when the vast majority of training is still done in the NPC Towns. By then we won't have that many new players coming in, and most of that training will have already been done by the first wave.

It's the lack of crafters to start off with, and then the massive surge when DTs arrive, that I am more worried about. I know quite a few people that have said they intend to have their DT be their crafter alt. That is my plan.

Goblin Squad Member

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GW shouldn't do anything special about training the DTs. Players have to do something ourselves :O).

DT is #1 priority on my personal crowdforging list just because that will double EEs ability to test everything and the user data going into GW which is exactly what they need at this stage. Also what Morbis said about 50-75% of early crafters are going to be DTs so the economy won't really start taking shape until they hit the ground.

Goblin Squad Member

I hadn't even considered the possibility that DT's might not be in on day 1.


Incidentally, one of my favorite things about this training system is that it means that even if the EE crowd is slow and sluggish, we'll still have a brief advantage over the OE newcomers thanks to our larger XP totals.

Basically, Goblinworks is giving us an extra buffer—no matter how lame we are, we'll still have enough of a basic advantage in a fight to help us hang on until we can recover our footing. Hopefully.

Goblin Squad Member

On the other hand, it's the reason a lot of people I talk to are not at all interested in the game. They can never catch up to EE players. Assuming EE lasts around 18 months like was proposed at one point, that puts us 18 months ahead of OE players. If it's still taking 2.5 years to get to max skill level, that puts us 60% ahead. As long as we're subscribed, their is no way for any of them to get to equal footing.

Goblin Squad Member

The "might" was a wait and see.

Goblin Squad Member

Crash_00 wrote:

On the other hand, it's the reason a lot of people I talk to are not at all interested in the game. They can never catch up to EE players. Assuming EE lasts around 18 months like was proposed at one point, that puts us 18 months ahead of OE players. If it's still taking 2.5 years to get to max skill level, that puts us 60% ahead. As long as we're subscribed, their is no way for any of them to get to equal footing.

Well, to be fair, Ryan has said that the gap won't account for much.

You won't immediately be outclassed by those that have come before, they will jsut have more options at their disposal.

Goblin Squad Member

Crash_00 wrote:
On the other hand, it's the reason a lot of people I talk to are not at all interested in the game. They can never catch up to EE players. Assuming EE lasts around 18 months like was proposed at one point, that puts us 18 months ahead of OE players. If it's still taking 2.5 years to get to max skill level, that puts us 60% ahead. As long as we're subscribed, their is no way for any of them to get to equal footing.

Yet people still join EVE.

In almost all TT games, there's some local NPCs in charge of the town or village or whatnot, and they are higher level than the PCs in many cases. So what happens when there's few NPCs? Some PC is going to be in charge of the town and have a more advanced set of skills than many junior PCs. It won't be that bad.

I hope. :). I'm due to come in to EE in month 2, so everybody will be 'level 8' after their month in EE, and I'll be one of the new 'level 1' commoners.

Goblin Squad Member

Crash_00 wrote:
On the other hand, it's the reason a lot of people I talk to are not at all interested in the game. They can never catch up to EE players. Assuming EE lasts around 18 months like was proposed at one point, that puts us 18 months ahead of OE players. If it's still taking 2.5 years to get to max skill level, that puts us 60% ahead. As long as we're subscribed, their is no way for any of them to get to equal footing.

You'll never "catch up" in Eve, either, but new players still join that game.

The power curve is supposed to be such that two Tier-2 players a couple of months old can beat a maxed vet. And the maxed vet is not going to be running around in his max-keywords T3 gear every day, anyway. There will be advantages to seniority in that a) you have broader skillbase so you can adapt to different roles, and b) when you pull out the top end gear from the vault you're pretty badass... but in terms of the everyday play experience he's not going to be that much tougher than anybody with a few months of XP who's trained and equipped for his role.


Crash_00 wrote:

On the other hand, it's the reason a lot of people I talk to are not at all interested in the game. They can never catch up to EE players. Assuming EE lasts around 18 months like was proposed at one point, that puts us 18 months ahead of OE players. If it's still taking 2.5 years to get to max skill level, that puts us 60% ahead. As long as we're subscribed, their is no way for any of them to get to equal footing.

That's not what I heard. From what I heard, the training gets slower as you move on. We'll still have more XP, but it won't mean as much. People will reach our level in much less time.

So, kinda like what happens when you stick a level 5 in a level 8 party—they will always have more XP, but he will be the same level soon enough. Assuming he doesn't die (or quit playing, in this case).

Goblin Squad Member

I haven't actually met a single person that plays EVE myself, but yes, most of the people I try to draw in have the same issue with EVE.

The problem they have with PfO isn't the single person so much as the entire settlements. If they get in during OE (when the game should have everything implemented), they're 18 months behind the curve. It might not be a big deal on one on one basis, but if they're in the settlement warfare game (the games emphasis), they're pretty much forced to join an already active settlement or be way behind the curve.

Even if they manage to build a settlement a hundred strong day one of OE, they're staring at 18 month old settlements of equal strength that have every reason to tear them apart from the get go (competition). 100 members with 18 months of extra experience across the board (settlement control, crafting, and combat) vs. 100 members just starting is never going to end well for the new comers.

Sure, the people playing longer are going to have an advantage, but the way most people I try to draw in see it, is that they are being punished for wanting to hold out until OE starts.

Personally, I think people will whine about anything, but it is worth noting since it's what I've heard from nearly every person I've tried to draw into the game. Most people don't want to pay to play a beta, but they don't want to be penalized for waiting for the finished product.

Goblin Squad Member

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Crash_00 wrote:

I haven't actually met a single person that plays EVE myself, but yes, most of the people I try to draw in have the same issue with EVE.

The problem they have with PfO isn't the single person so much as the entire settlements. If they get in during OE (when the game should have everything implemented), they're 18 months behind the curve. It might not be a big deal on one on one basis, but if they're in the settlement warfare game (the games emphasis), they're pretty much forced to join an already active settlement or be way behind the curve.

Even if they manage to build a settlement a hundred strong day one of OE, they're staring at 18 month old settlements of equal strength that have every reason to tear them apart from the get go (competition). 100 members with 18 months of extra experience across the board (settlement control, crafting, and combat) vs. 100 members just starting is never going to end well for the new comers.

Sure, the people playing longer are going to have an advantage, but the way most people I try to draw in see it, is that they are being punished for wanting to hold out until OE starts.

Personally, I think people will whine about anything, but it is worth noting since it's what I've heard from nearly every person I've tried to draw into the game. Most people don't want to pay to play a beta, but they don't want to be penalized for waiting for the finished product.

I doubt anyone will be able to change the mindset of those people waiting for OE that think they are being penalized for not contributing to EE. But I think that is the wrong mindset to take. They should be thinking that those that did contribute to EE are getting rewarded for their support for an unproven product.

Edit: Plus the OE crowd is going to be larger than the EE crowd. If we are lucky, during the 1st month of OE, that crowd might outnumber the EE crowd which I believe would negate any benefit extra XP/Time that EE crowd has obtained.

Goblin Squad Member

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If they plan on joining in and immediately making a settlement, that's probably not going to happen. You're going to need resources and training to create the buildings that make up the settlement; gathering the resources and training the skills will take some time. There might be other factors that delay it further. My point being, yeah a settlement of only 1st day dudes is going to get stomped by people who have been around, but there won't be any settlements of 1st day dudes. I'd imagine it'll take at least a couple months to get to that point, and by then your warriors should be able to stand a fighting chance against the other weaker settlements in the borderlands (though you will still be at a disadvantage, and you should expect as such and plan for it).

In a sandbox game, the fights are rarely fair. It's a hard fact to swallow, and is one of the reasons that the game won't be for everyone.

Goblin Squad Member

Crash_00 wrote:
...that have every reason to tear them apart from the get go...

Please remember, and tell them, that the further Settlements attempt to extend their radius of control beyond their site, the more expensive, in several measures, that effort becomes. There's a much stronger incentive to make friends with, to support, and even to defend newer Settlements at some distance, simply because conquering them serves no purpose for the conqueror.

Most of the conquer-and-raze activity'll be among immediate neighbours, and neighbours of friends. Conquer-and-control will take essentially the same amount of manpower as needed to run the conquering Settlement, and there may be few organisations that can muster that number of folks.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Crash_00 wrote:
On the other hand, it's the reason a lot of people I talk to are not at all interested in the game. They can never catch up to EE players.

That would only be true if characters could continue getting more and more powerful indefinitely. They can't. At around 2.5 years you've maxed out. Thus, anyone who plays the game for 2.5 will have 'caught up' with everyone else who has done so.

Sure, a player who has been in the game for five years may be able to configure their character as either a 'top level' wizard or a 'top level' fighter... but they won't be any more powerful than a wizard, fighter, rogue, or anything else who has only been in the game 2.5 years.

Goblin Squad Member

Even in EVE there isn't a huge disadvantage of starting late, you won't have the same breadth of options as a vet, but your depth catch up will be pretty quick. That last couple % difference is a lot of time investment for not a lot of gain. Most people don't even bother doing it unless they have nothing else to prioritize.

I can understand the misconception, without the details of how it works it's hard to see why there isn't an insurmountable gap.


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I'm gonna repeat*: It is easily possible to catch up, even without any form of interruption. Things like the power curve and caps don't matter, because they're aside from the real way GW has decided to prevent the "infinite advantage".

The higher level you are, the longer it takes to advance further. As such, the lower leveled characters will easily catch up, since they will advance at a much swifter rate. It's as simple as that.

*Because, honestly, I think this counterpoint really settles the whole issue much better than the others do.

Goblin Squad Member

Well the power curve and caps still kinda matters, if that last (the following are made up numbers) step of training that took most of a year gives you a 25% or better advantage over newbies all by itself, it doesn't matter how fast they get to the step below you, the difference is huge until they catch up well over probably 2 years into the game. If you're talking about 1-5% difference between maxed out and the couple steps below, well then that decision to commit more time means you're trading off on depth, which is okay at that point and you deserve your few percent advantage.

The math matters a lot, but from what GW has said about it I do not think it should be a major concern for prospective new players.

Goblin Squad Member

Anyone worried about EE players having too big of an advantage could only hope for the game mirroring EvE Online. EvE Online has one of the greatest David and Goliath stories in sandbox gaming – The Goons against... well, everyone. The Goons came into EvE and revolutionised how wars were fought. They didn't need veteran characters, they didn't need experience, they didn't need the very best equipment the game had to offer. Instead they relied on their organisational skill, their ability to learn from every encounter, their ability to think in non-linear patterns, and their sheer force of will.

They took their little bees and they brought the competition to their knees. The same will happen here. Someone will come in, do something different, and show everyone else how we were doing it wrong. It has happened before and it will happen again. No one is safe. And that is a very, very good thing.


...two years? Two years is when the caps hit. If it takes two freakin' years to catch up from half-year's* head start, I'm going to be seriously disappointed in Goblinworks's maths skillz. :P

*Well, it's more like 75% of a year, innit? I can't actually recall off the top of my head. Summon NihiMonster I! Because this is obviously a question worth his time.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Morbis wrote:
...show everyone else how we were doing it wrong.

Thought-experiment, Morbis, on an otherwise-slow night while I'm waiting to see vote-updates: it sounded as if the Goons knocking everyone on their heels caused a lot of turmoil in EVE subscriptions, but it was in both directions. Lots quit, but the gaming press made it sound as if many joined, due to the publicity, as well.

The question: if someone comes in on a massive scale and finds out we *are* doing it right, and we knock them on *their* heels, does that hurt PFO?

Everyone please note, this is all for theory-gazing; it's not a statement of belief, or hope, or anything else. It's a question that might find some folks with interesting things to say.

Goblin Squad Member

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Someone can always do it better. There is always room for improvement. It's how meta games develop; You come up with a way of doing something fantastic and you dominate with it. I spend all of my energy finding a way to counter it, and when I do, I dominate with it. You then do the same to me, and we spiral around each other in an ever-increasingly complex dance.

And then someone skips a beat or two. They don't just counter what is current, they counter the next thing, and the next, all in one sweeping step that everyone looks at and thinks "how the hell didn't I get there first? It's so simple...".

We may very well survive the first few assaults. What the Goons did doesn't happen often; they were in the right place, with the right people, at the right time. Chances are we will keep our advantage for a while. We will have had quite a lot of dancing around each other, and it takes something of a savant to skip that learning process.

But someone will. All we can do is hope that we are ready to rebuild when that happens.


I don't think Jazzle's saying it's likely we won't have anything to learn. Like he said, he's theory-gazing. Don't nitpick the rhetorical question. :P

EDIT: Out of curiosity, Pax, do you know of any good blogs or whatever that really delve into the Goons' initial entrance? It'd be neat to discuss the potential relevance on Gobbocast sometime.

Goblin Squad Member

That wasn't my intention, though I can see why you might feel that I didn't really answer the question.

No, it wouldn't hurt PfO. It happens all the time in competitive environments. New people come in, try their hand and get their asses handed to them. Sometimes they leave. The better players will dust themselves off, take the first step on the path to power parity and start working themselves up the rankings. Anyone that expects to walk in blind, pull off a miracle and become the supreme overlords of the game is kidding themselves. We can do without them.

But won't it be interesting to see which group actually pulls it off?

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
...the rhetorical question.

I also hope that folks with something to say don't treat my question as rhetorical; I'd love to hear their thoughts.

Okay, not literally.


Well, it's rhetorical in that it's...uh...okay shut up it's a hypothetical question LOOK A MOOSE

Also, in case by edit was missed: Out of curiosity, Pax, do you know of any good blogs or whatever that really delve into the Goons' initial entrance? It'd be neat to discuss the potential relevance on Gobbocast sometime.

Personally, I hope we don't get anything like the Goons, where just two organizations end up being the only legitimate players. That would be kinda lame.

Goblin Squad Member

Well yes, EE vs OE should be a small gap, but for the health of the game the person who joins 2 years in needs to be able to do something useful before they have played for 2 years. Even EVE only takes a month or two to train to something useful, there are still more advanced things that take a lot more time, but they aren't necessarily about being better and some of them are often not used (at least in large numbers) for logistic or expense reasons.

(Made up numbers following)
What I'm implying is that a maxed role should only give you a (relatively) 10% advantage over a noob. Enough that in a fair fight you probably shouldn't lose but not enough that you're impervious or insta-winning fights. After a month or two of training for the noob, the advantage should only be something like 3-5% for the maxed player.

I think we're pretty much all agreeing that's the way it should be and that is what GW wants, but the size of those advantages per level matter a lot in terms of insuring that and it that in turn makes the time per level matter.

Goblin Squad Member

I could probably go find some good blogs, but it is 5:14 in the morning and screw that noise. I might PM you tomorrow.

And to be fair, EvE isn't just two organizations any more, and it hasn't been for a long time. I'm not current with EvE politics right now, but I know that for a fact. Plus, the Goons don't really have the same oomph they used to. They have some incredible people behind them (Vee is an FC god), but it isn't like the good old days.

Goblin Squad Member

Duffy wrote:
...EVE only takes a month or two to train to something useful...

If I remember correctly, Bluddwolf and others have offered, here on the PFO boards, to meet new people in EVE and have them rolling out the same evening, doing useful and fun things. I want PFO to offer that same level of get-your-feet-wet-by-doing as well, and for many of us to be able to extend that type of EVE-players-courtesy to new PFO arrivals.

Thinking of those long-training situations: Duffy, I can't remember whether it was you, but a while back someone brought up how disconcerting it can be in EVE to finish training to fly a Titan, and then not be able to find someone who'll trust you to fly theirs.

Goblin Squad Member

@Jazz

There is something called EVE University that is a corporation designed to teach new people how to play EVE. They have a very robust setup to allow it and most of the corporations leave them to their stuff as they don't get involved in the big conflicts. Has anyone been talking about doing that for PFO?

The thing about Titans wasn't me but I do feel like I remember reading that somewhere here. Interesting disconnect between having the skill to do something but you need a trusting community to lend you the equipment to do it. I wonder if we'll see much of that in PFO.

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