Dissapointment Among the Silent


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

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Khimber Vhane wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Right, I forgot that paladins actually do have a "no gross stuff" rule in their codes. Boy, paladins are weeeird.
We do the weird stuff!

I had my heart set on where that link would bring me to, and I was not dissapointed.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I think the biggest challenge in a game like this is that an objective has to be, to some level, "Make things un-fun for your enemy." That makes it hard to avoid things like sore winners and sore losers. In bad cases, the winner is happy and the loser is miserable. That goes against what many people regard as the point of games: Keep things friendly outside of play and just enjoy yourself.

From solely the standpoint of someone who plays games non-competitively, to have fun, that paradox—the contradiction between "play" and "win"—is my second-biggest concern about PFO's future.

I like PvP, but I like friendly PvP. Whether I'll have the stomach to work in EVE-style PvP is just something I'll have to wait to find out.

If I could have favorited this a few dozen times, I would have.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Right, I forgot that paladins actually do have a "no gross stuff" rule in their codes. Boy, paladins are weeeird.

In 3.5 LG I had a Gnome Valley Girl Paladin who thought, despite detect evil telling her otherwise, that bad fashion sense was one of the more evil things possible.


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Kemedo wrote:
So, you take additional tasks to trying to minimize the death issues, and work around the difficulties. Per exemple, I never ever explore using diamond tools nor leaving my "castle" without minimal survival equipment (a door, a bed, torchs, food, map) and by having another copy of those itens stored at house. Once I clena up caves and fill it with torches, I can go back, get my diamond axe and pick the sweet rares cubes.

Laaame. Minecraft gets boring fast without risk, man! Shoot a creeper twice and then charge and try to get two hits in! Run around at nighttime just to see if you can cut it!


GrumpyMel wrote:

From my perspective PFO is going to have to strike a good balance between alot of different activities if it wants to be truely successfull. PvP is going to be a major aspect of the game. However, it is important that it does not become such a dominant aspect of gameplay that it crowds out the other aspects of gameply. If it does, IMO, then what you are going to see happen is a positive feedback loop where eventualy the only players logging in to play will be the ones doing so to PvP. If that is the case, then it better hope that the PvP it offers is qualitatevly better then the hordes of other PvP focused online games out there, or it will be drowned out in a sea of competition.

For fantasy based MMO's, it's not all that hard for PFO to come up with PvP that is competitive.... because most of them frankly do very poor quality PvP... at least the ones so far available. However, it won't just be competing against fantasy MMO's in that instance... it'll be competeing against all online games...from MMO-Like games like PS2 to pure match based games like the WoT or FPS like the Battlefield series....and even those in the fantasy-medeival arenas like Mount and Blade or Chivalry, etc.

It's also important to note that PFO's biggest selling points, persistance and sandbox, won't be particulary important selling points to the majority of players who will be PvP Focused. The reason why is that those gameplay elements only have an interesting effect on the strategic aspects of gameplay. However, the only people who really get to interact with the strategic aspects of gameplay in interesting ways will be the decision makers...the Guild Leaders and Millitary Strategists.... and those likely will encompass less then 1 percent of the player base. The rest of the player base, the 99 percent of rank and file grunts won't get to interact in an interesting and meaningfull manner with those strategic gameplay elements. For them it's going to be functionaly identical in terms of thier gameplay whether a guild leader tells...

Yeah, to me (and I understand I am not the only person who matters, still, I am expressive...), the idea of never being safe is realistic. The idea of constant war is realistic, but it's even a deeper issue than pvp vs pve. It's just the fear that the game will become simply easiest possible way to spec for pvp, all of the non-combat chars will be slaughtered, etc.

Pvp is good. I think everyone wants pvp (super assumption) in a sandbox. However, when the game world becomes a constant war where people cannot even go out to pick flowers on the edge of town, that's a problem. People want to employ safe zones or whatever, but I think it just needs (as I have said before) a tighter DM-level rein on it. Certain things should not be allowed to happen. BUT SANDBOX is a bad comeback to that because in any case, no matter how finely crafted a game is, if the world becomes predominantly pvp, nothing else matters.

There is no soldiers code in video games. Nobody thinks about players as other people. Thus, pvp can border on the level of psychopathic murder. It can be like the Huns always.

I believe that in order for a game to reach a higher level of sandbox-ness, there will come a time when it will have to tier up from the type of game where the best solution is always "killem!" And because it's doubtful you can get enough players who actually think about the world as the world and not just winkillpvp, something needs to happen to keep them in check. The players, as I still believe, can not be counted on to do this, and if they were, if they ever lost control, then the game becomes in-accessible.

I mean, also need such thing as deteriorating resources so that the strongest can not just stockpile everything. But that's another blog-length post...

More ways to play, more ways to win. That's what everyone wants. I don't think anyone wants happy fairy land, they just want to know that there is maybe medieval level order... opposed to say prehistory.

Goblin Squad Member

Actually here are some people who thinks about other players behind their characters. We are just not so vocal and numerous as other kinds of players. ;)
PvP adds some degree of "realism" to sandbox. PvP also keeps some undesirable activities in check so I will rather vote for PvP. Main problem of any MMO game with emulation of any RL patterns is: internal mechanic of MMO is different from RL.
In RL we have much more tools to interact with our environment than destroy/access/use single function. In RL we have no immortal crazies who can pop into and out of the world with 15-second delay. Yes we have thieves, bullies, maniacs and lot of other deviant people (including geniuses and extraordinary leaders too) but nobody tries to build whole society around these types. And main goal in RL for most of us is "live well" - not "have fun". What people considers to be "living well" varies.
Diversity of possible activities (more ways to play as celestialiar wrote) is one of the mechanics to dilute much of the problems of modern MMO. I'm all for this. PFO will use two other ways to make world functional - large game space and consequences of players' activity. They also will introduce escalations to nudge players into cooperation.
And yes, item deterioration, everyday needs and upkeeps, NPC economics and politics will not make in this game - but I'll play with any tools devs will give me. GW is small company - they can't deliver all the things at once. So I'll try to help shape this game into a good place to play.


Marlagram wrote:

Actually here are some people who thinks about other players behind their characters. We are just not so vocal and numerous as other kinds of players. ;)

PvP adds some degree of "realism" to sandbox. PvP also keeps some undesirable activities in check so I will rather vote for PvP. Main problem of any MMO game with emulation of any RL patterns is: internal mechanic of MMO is different from RL.
In RL we have much more tools to interact with our environment than destroy/access/use single function. In RL we have no immortal crazies who can pop into and out of the world with 15-second delay. Yes we have thieves, bullies, maniacs and lot of other deviant people (including geniuses and extraordinary leaders too) but nobody tries to build whole society around these types. And main goal in RL for most of us is "live well" - not "have fun". What people considers to be "living well" varies.
Diversity of possible activities (more ways to play as celestialiar wrote) is one of the mechanics to dilute much of the problems of modern MMO. I'm all for this. PFO will use two other ways to make world functional - large game space and consequences of players' activity. They also will introduce escalations to nudge players into cooperation.
And yes, item deterioration, everyday needs and upkeeps, NPC economics and politics will not make in this game - but I'll play with any tools devs will give me. GW is small company - they can't deliver all the things at once. So I'll try to help shape this game into a good place to play.

Yeah.

I think some people are vocal. I don't want to impose my way on other people. Personally, I can adapt. At a certain point, it gets annoying, but it's mainly because I want the world to be realistic. I like hardcore, I like sandbox, but yeah... there is something lost between life and game because in life even the craziest person fears dying. It's only a very rare instance where they snap and don't (or they are actually delusional enough to believe they can get away with their crimes.)

I think having people who were murderers, serial killers, thieves... all of that makes me more interested in the game. However, when the world is populated with them, that's an issue. I want to play a game where if someone wanted to do something on that level, they would have to plan it out, and if they succeeded even for awhile, it would be legendary in the game.

Who knows, maybe everything is unfounded. I have my worries, but yea I will try my best, too.

Goblin Squad Member

Given the reputation system, from what of it I have seen in Alpha, I doubt there will be very much in the way of 'unsanctioned' PvP. The time it takes to work off a serious amount of negative reputation is going to be an effective governor of PK activity. Since the character has to be in the game and moving to regain reputation and settlement NPC guards are totally devoted to removing low rep characters even when they respawn, all the low rep will have to do are things that increase encumbrance and slow them down. They will end up having to destroy their gains just to be able to walk until their reputation recovers over time.


Being wrote:
Given the reputation system, from what of it I have seen in Alpha, I doubt there will be very much in the way of 'unsanctioned' PvP. The time it takes to work off a serious amount of negative reputation is going to be an effective governor of PK activity. Since the character has to be in the game and moving to regain reputation and settlement NPC guards are totally devoted to removing low rep characters even when they respawn, all the low rep will have to do are things that increase encumbrance and slow them down. They will end up having to destroy their gains just to be able to walk until their reputation recovers over time.

Yeah, well I'll have to do more research on the mechanics of war. Do you have to be tied to a settlement in order to store stuff or train? Can a settlement that declared war attack non combat characters? I do think regular pk should be harder than most games, but if you're still in a war zone getting killed, that is the same result.

Goblin Squad Member

Depends on the settlement, but most likely a settlement will want your business even if unaffiliated. They might try to recruit you. However if you are a noncombatant and enter a war zone you may be flagged fair game if you are without 'papers' (factional affiliation, trade authorization, whatever)because you might be an assassin or saboteur.

Goblin Squad Member

celestialiar wrote:
Being wrote:
Given the reputation system, from what of it I have seen in Alpha, I doubt there will be very much in the way of 'unsanctioned' PvP. The time it takes to work off a serious amount of negative reputation is going to be an effective governor of PK activity. Since the character has to be in the game and moving to regain reputation and settlement NPC guards are totally devoted to removing low rep characters even when they respawn, all the low rep will have to do are things that increase encumbrance and slow them down. They will end up having to destroy their gains just to be able to walk until their reputation recovers over time.
Yeah, well I'll have to do more research on the mechanics of war. Do you have to be tied to a settlement in order to store stuff or train? Can a settlement that declared war attack non combat characters? I do think regular pk should be harder than most games, but if you're still in a war zone getting killed, that is the same result.

Give this a read.

Goblin Squad Member

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I think that first sentence under PvP in the blog:

"At the core of Pathfinder Online is player versus player (or PvP) combat." ~R. Dancy

...might be only from the developers point-of-view. Ultimately it could turn out to be generally true for everyone if thing 'go south', but it is rightly said that the core of what GW is programming into the game is centered on PvP. It is the most likely problem area that has to be hard coded.

I think that, for the player's experience, PvP will only be the core of the game for those players primarily interested in PvP.

The core game will be other than PvP for those player who aren't into PvP.

By its nature PvP will surely intrude on the core game of all players, but it doesn't have to be the core of your PFO.

Just think twice or three times before you venture out alone.

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