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This is not endorsed by the rules at all. A dragon's weight is not specified. You cannot argue that they are not strong enough to fly with their weight if you do not know what they weigh.This isn't a matter of aerodynamics. It's about weight to power ratios. Weight to power ratios that are fully endorsed by the rules since strength modifiers do not go up with the cube of size categories as they would have to for biologically powered flight to scale up.
That's what people used to say about bees flying when they didn't understand how bees flew. Bees continued flying anyway, and it turned out not to be magic. I suspect the same is happening here.
Not specified? Perhaps.
But we know the general range of weight for each age category.
For example, an Adult Red Dragon is Huge size.
Huge creatures weigh anywhere from 2-16 tons.
Anywhere in that weight range is a bit too large to fly on a single set of leathery wings the size of which is generally only about as long as the dragon's body (each).
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It also comers into play for the spells arcane cannon, banish seeming, gaseous form, and healing thief, the feats Dragonheart and Witchbreaker, the conductive magic weapon ability and forsaken banded mail, and the fey-taken drawback and noble born traits.
NONE of that is mainstream Pathfinder material (though its all official), but it is a sign of how the Ex/Su distinction can be a useful tool of specific design ideas. I'd hate to lose it.
I would love to see a strong design theme that Ex abilities can do things like reflect spells using a shield, and that martial classes can pick up magical abilities. But I don't think eliminating the difference between Ex and Su is the way to get there.
Between his thoughts here and on his blog, I thought that Sean make it fairly clear that his point wasn't that the Su / Ex distinction needs to go away. Rather, I interpreted it as saying, "Hey, we don't need to keep Supernatural abilities away from 'martial' classes because in the long run, there isn't much of a difference."
In effect, that the Ex / Su divide was more flavor-based than mechanics-based and that being "Supernatural" doesn't mean that it should automatically be better than something "Extraordinary." In the long run, those words are synonyms anyway. :-P
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I agree that the divide between (Ex) and (Su) is largely superficial.
However, I don't think the divide between (Ex) and (Su) is the reason "martials can't have nice things" in PFRPG.
Hmm, I didn't say AMF is the reason martials can't have nice things, or even that AMF is a reason for it. I said that if you forget about Ex and Su, then you can also forget about defining whether an amazing fighter ability is Ex or Su, and therefore forget about whether or not martials "should have to" obey the laws of physics.
In other words: by getting rid of the fixation on whether or not an ability is magic, you can get rid of a (perhaps subconscious) design bias against giving martial classes magical abilities. If it doesn't matter if an ability is magic or not, it doesn't matter if the character class "is magic" or not... just give the class abilities that are appropriate to the theme of the class (fighting, sneaking, healing, whatever).
AMF does sort of bug me in the way that, a spell/effect explicitly favored to give casters a rough time, is almost as much of a pain in the ass for a martial character when all his items turn off.
In other words: by getting rid of the fixation on whether or not an ability is magic, you can get rid of a (perhaps subconscious) design bias against giving martial classes magical abilities. If it doesn't matter if an ability is magic or not, it doesn't matter if the character class "is magic" or not.This really sums it up perfectly though. Ultimately we're playing a high fantasy world where the characters, one way or another, leave the bounds of reality by level 6 or 7 at the latest. Continuing to try to constrain one class toward what doesn't feel too magical or unrealisitc at that stage just feels... odd. And in a way it even somehow makes the character feel less realistic when I can chop a dragon to pieces in a few seconds yet can't manage to do much else with that raw power.
Especially at higher levels, when that fighter is expected to be facing down archfiends and demigods and normal men literally cannot harm him, trying to maintain that standard of realism and down to earth mechanics doesn't seem to fit.
This. ^(-_-)^
This really sums it up perfectly though. Ultimately we're playing a high fantasy world where the characters, one way or another, leave the bounds of reality by level 6 or 7 at the latest. Continuing to try to constrain one class toward what doesn't feel too magical or unrealisitc at that stage just feels... odd. And in a way it even somehow makes the character feel less realistic when I can chop a dragon to pieces in a few seconds yet can't manage to do much else with that raw power.Especially at higher levels, when that fighter is expected to be facing down archfiends and demigods and normal men literally cannot harm him, trying to maintain that standard of realism and down to earth mechanics doesn't seem to fit.
Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks and all that. I don't think it's odd at all to keep martial classes to martial-oriented methodologies. In fact, it fits in quite well with much of the inspirational literature, particularly of the Captain America, Iliad, or Conan sorts.
I wouldn't mind at all seeing more martial maneuvers or abilities that are instant fight ending, enemy crippling, army inspiring, defense-boosting, or other ways of allowing a martial character to cut through and assert narrative control of situations because he's a puissant kind of guy. But the main thing is I really want it to feel different from what spellcasters do. Magic may be hard to master in its own way, but its effect should be a shortcut - the easy way - while the fighter has earned what he's got and it may be less flashy and modular, but it's more reliable. If, to use a Legion of Superheroes analogy, the spellcaster is any hero with a weird accidental mutation that can be countered by science (or magic), the fighter should be Karate Kid with abilities that can't simply be negated and who never frickin' gives up.
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The problem though Bill Dunn is that much of Inspirational Literature is low leveled. No one in the Iliad punches out a god. High level characters don't run from gods, they break their arms punching out Cthulhu. Because most of it takes place in our world. In a fight of Ruby versus Captain America, much of a determinator as he is, I think Ruby is going to win that fight handily. And you better hope Cu Cuchulain doesn't show up, cause he'll wreck both of them and a nearby mountain. Because that's what a high level martial is, a mountain wrecker.
Captain America isn't a level 20 Fighter. He's a level 8 Fighter. With a way over WBL shield.
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Just look at the Barb, he's able to be "SO ANGRY HE......X" for a lot of things. Nothing is stopping the printing of powerful EX abilities. Absolutely nothing.
I support this wholeheartedly. If a dragon can fly in an antimagic field, a barbarian leaping and whatnot doesn't need to be magic, either.
Similarly, what makes the fire from a fireball, a dragon's breath, and alchemist's fire so different that they behave differently when burning a creature with spell resistance, an iron golem, or an antimagic field.
A fireball is resisted by spell resistance, heals an iron golem, and stops at the edge of an antimagic field.
Dragon breath gets past the spell resistance, but still heals the iron golem, and stops at the edge of an antimagic field.
Alchemist's fire ignores spell resistance, damages an iron golem, and gets through the antimagic field.
That's easy. Fireballs and dragon's breath are magical. Alchemist's fire is not.
Next.
Fire is fire. Fireball's odd behavior may be an argument that it is magical, but when a dragon breathes fire it's operating through perfectly mundane inertia and convection once it leaves the dragon's mouth.
There's no reason for dragonfire to be supernatural. Anyone can breathe fire. All it takes is a mouthful of high proof alcohol and a lighter or spark. Dragon flight, on the other hand, violates the square cube law and therefore cannot possibly be anything but magic and yet it's Ex.
I picked Atarlost's reply because it had the salient point but others contributed to this.
This underscores the point that Magic in d20 has a problem. It has no underlying rule structure. Which is odd since everything else tries to have a unified rule system.
Now it could be argued that d20 is an Exception Based Rule System. That would require though that there would be an underlying rule to have an exception too. I don't think there is (though I could be wrong). This is more for SKR, Owen, Ross, and the people who actually make a living with this stuff.
The original blog may go to this as well. Sean is pointing out that there is an unconscious tendency to limit what EX abilities can do within a framework of our comprehension of practical Physics. Even though, as cited above, the CRB calls out that EX abilities can break the fundamental laws of the universe.
While it wouldn't be easy, perhaps one of the goals of future designs should be to develop an internal consistency for magic as a whole beyond the loose Schools of Magic (which is frequently ignored for personal preference now and ever since the original DMGs printing). That way the "screw you" effects are neither needed or put in checque early.
An examination of EX, SU, SLAs and basic Spells would be a good start.
I sympathize with designers that make something cool and actually balanced, only to get called down by some Pedantic argument. Or worse to have that ability which was designed for flavor and to flesh something out get abused for sheer power gaming.
If the problem that non SU characters cannot or shouldn't get access to certain abilities persists, that's not a healthy game and it's not balanced. Most of us have come to realize that our 8th level characters are beyond superhuman. Our 12th level characters are far more powerful than the stories that inspired our gaming in the first place. The "Power Classes" won't get nerfed because the problem isn't in the class design but in the components of the class.
One of the challenges though is that a certain subset of the player base doesn't WANT to be so heavily dependent on magic, even though magic literally permeates the worlds that those PCs exist in. Maybe it's the lack of consistency in magic or an actual prejudice. I don't know if it's a disconnect or what, maybe they are just playing the wrong game, but that would be a shame.
Ok... the Scamander and what not don't really count as they aren't members of the actual pantheon. Otherwise, we have to include Nymphs which the Bestiary assures are not divine. And again, I wouldn't really call what Diomedes did a "punch out" and even then he got help from one the major Goddesses in the pantheon.
Also, the Greek Pantheon itself isn't very high level. Zeus is probably no better then 12-13th level druid. Either way, a level 20 caster looks way more like a god then any of them.
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To address the topic of the OP, wouldn't things like Arcane Sight also play a factor when dealing with supernatural abilities? Just because something isn't a spell, doesn't mean it's not magical and, therefore, capable of pinging on Arcane Sight or something similar.
Personally, I like the idea of pushing your physical, mental, and spiritual limits so hard and so fast that you break the laws of physics hard enough to CAUSE magic to happen. The wizard may be able to wave his hands and utter some pseudo-latin nonsense, but you cause a fiery shockwave to erupt from the planes themselves simply because you punched reality hard enough.
Ok... the Scamander and what not don't really count as they aren't members of the actual pantheon.Neither is Hades (he's not an Olympian), but he's still indisputably a god.
And again, I wouldn't really call what Diomedes did a "punch out"...I would.
"And when they were now near as they advanced against one another, Ares first reached out over the hoke and the reins of the horses with his spear of bronze, eager to take away the other's life, but the spear the goddess, flashing-eyed Athene, caught in her hand and thrust up over the chariot to fly its way in vain. Next Diomedes, good at the war cry, drove at Ares with his spear of bronze, and Pallas Athene sped it mightily against the lower portion of his belly, where he was girded with his apron. There did he thrust and strike him, tearing the fair flesh, and he drew the spear out again. Then brazen Ares bellowed loud as nine thousand warriors or ten thousand cry in battle when they join in the strife of the War god. Trembling came over the Achaeans and Trojans alike, and fear took hold of them, so mightily did Ares insatiate of war bellow."
Sounds like punching out (or stabbing out) a god to me, albeit with the help of another deity (Diomedes didn't need help against Aphrodite, but he did against Ares). Ares immediately fled afterwards, and actually mentions to Zeus that he had to flee from that confrontation or risk coming close to what an immortal would class as death.
With the help of another god (and a major one at that) makes it pretty questionable. And again, the head of the pantheon is a level 12-13 Druid. God help them if a level 20 caster showed up.
To address the topic of the OP, wouldn't things like Arcane Sight also play a factor when dealing with supernatural abilities? Just because something isn't a spell, doesn't mean it's not magical and, therefore, capable of pinging on Arcane Sight or something similar.
Personally, I like the idea of pushing your physical, mental, and spiritual limits so hard and so fast that you break the laws of physics hard enough to CAUSE magic to happen. The wizard may be able to wave his hands and utter some pseudo-latin nonsense, but you cause a fiery shockwave to erupt from the planes themselves simply because you punched reality hard enough.
Yeah I'm down for that.
I've given up on hoping that spells get knocked down. It's not going to happen. Spells, new spells, sell books, that's just the reality of RPGs.
Now.
For those that want the Martials, fighters in particular to stay magic free I see no problem with adjusting his saves. Older editions had fighters that just shrugged off most magic gimeckery at high levels. One of the easiest things to do would to make fighters sort of spell proof later on (and I mean direct attacks, like Dominate Person, Hold Person or Disentegrate not Summoning spells or Battlefield Control stuff).
That's really off topic though.
Fire is fire. Fireball's odd behavior may be an argument that it is magical, but when a dragon breathes fire it's operating through perfectly mundane inertia and convection once it leaves the dragon's mouth.I support this wholeheartedly. If a dragon can fly in an antimagic field, a barbarian leaping and whatnot doesn't need to be magic, either.
Similarly, what makes the fire from a fireball, a dragon's breath, and alchemist's fire so different that they behave differently when burning a creature with spell resistance, an iron golem, or an antimagic field.
A fireball is resisted by spell resistance, heals an iron golem, and stops at the edge of an antimagic field.
Dragon breath gets past the spell resistance, but still heals the iron golem, and stops at the edge of an antimagic field.
Alchemist's fire ignores spell resistance, damages an iron golem, and gets through the antimagic field.
That's easy. Fireballs and dragon's breath are magical. Alchemist's fire is not.
Next.
Clearly not, since it's Su and various items specifically give protection from the breath weapons of dragon and not mundane fire.
That's what people used to say about bees flying when they didn't understand how bees flew. Bees continued flying anyway, and it turned out not to be magic. I suspect the same is happening here.
There's no reason for dragonfire to be supernatural. Anyone can breathe fire. All it takes is a mouthful of high proof alcohol and a lighter or spark. Dragon flight, on the other hand, violates the square cube law and therefore cannot possibly be anything but magic and yet it's Ex.
Except bees are dragons are WORLDS different. When you increase in size, the strength and wing span needed to fly grows exponentially. This is why you don't see anything with insect like wings that weight more than a pound...
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I don’t necessarily thing “everyone can access everything” is the goal. Fighters should be able to fighter-appropriate abilities, rogues should be able to do rogue-appropriate abilities, and wizards should be able to do wizard-appropriate abilities. If you said that fighters and rogues should be able to fly four hours or teleport across the world in the manner that wizards do, I’d disagree, just as I would if you said wizards should be able to use a sword to chop a 5-foot-wide pillar in half (sounds like a fighter ability to me) or throw a dagger into a dragon’s eye at 100 feet (sounds like a rogue ability to me). But if you said an fighter could learn the ability to jump 100 feet straight up to hit a flying opponent, sure, or a rogue could learn the ability to teleport 30 feet and appear behind an enemy, sure.
In other words, there’s a difference between “everyone can access everything” and “a class can gain reality-breaking abilities so long as they are appropriate to the concept of that class.”
I am so on board with this line of reasoning. I've always thought the weird juxtaposition of "a Fighter can benchpress two dump trucks but can't jump more than 10 feet up in the air" was just... weird. It honestly breaks immersion for me way more than a high level Fighter jumping 100 feet straight up and Vital Striking would, because you're talking about a level where these guys are expected to be challenging and defeating supernatural threats from other planes of existence. It's odd that this environment has evolved where these virtual superheroes are allowed to only break some of the laws of real-world physics, while everyone else is basically breaking all of them.
Your insight into the fact that the difference between Ex and Su basically comes down to one (maybe two) abilities makes a very good case for excising the whole Su v. Ex bit out and using that unnecessarily choked off territory to expand the game.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am not sure removing the distinction is going to help. You sort of need a perception shift too, or at least some kind of agreement to disagree.
I think the divide shows itself the most strongly in the book of nine swords. Here was a book that gave 'martial' characters some pretty 'magical' abilities. None of them were superior to what 'spells' can do at equivalent levels, but there was still some serious pushback. 'Its too anime' or 'Its not balanced with the fighter' came up ALOT.
There are people who are fans of the game that want martial characters to sit in that almost simulationist space. Its silly in my mind, when the guy next to them is literally bending time and space to his will, but there is definately a big group of the hobby that would resist extraordinary abilities that give above and beyond powers to martial characters regardless of what kind of tag you put on them and even if they were in theme.
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Kolo, getting rid of the distinction isn't the cure to the problem, it's what leads to the perception shift (to use your words), in order to alter the design bias that leads to the problem. Lemme quote what I said in my most recent reply:
In other words: by getting rid of the fixation on whether or not an ability is magic, you can get rid of a (perhaps subconscious) design bias against giving martial classes magical abilities. If it doesn't matter if an ability is magic or not, it doesn't matter if the character class "is magic" or not... just give the class abilities that are appropriate to the theme of the class (fighting, sneaking, healing, whatever).
Much in the way that the discovery of bacteria didn't cure disease, it allowed scientists to change their understanding of the cause of disease (away from "demons" and "unbalanced humours") so they could finally work on targeting the actual problem (by dealing with germs rather than demons and humours).
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Kolo, getting rid of the distinction isn't the cure to the problem, it's what leads to the perception shift (to use your words), in order to alter the design bias that leads to the problem. Lemme quote what I said in my most recent reply:
In other words: by getting rid of the fixation on whether or not an ability is magic, you can get rid of a (perhaps subconscious) design bias against giving martial classes magical abilities. If it doesn't matter if an ability is magic or not, it doesn't matter if the character class "is magic" or not... just give the class abilities that are appropriate to the theme of the class (fighting, sneaking, healing, whatever).Much in the way that the discovery of bacteria didn't cure disease, it allowed scientists to change their understanding of the cause of disease (away from "demons" and "unbalanced humours") so they could finally work on targeting the actual problem (by dealing with germs rather than demons and humours).
I think the understanding that the game has levels is part of this too. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've watched two people rail back and forth in these forums with one guy saying "It doesn't make sense that a Fighter can't do XYZ in a fantasy world!" while another guy goes "Go play Mutants and Masterminds!".
They're generally talking about two different parts of the game.
Guy number 2 probably plays almost exclusively at levels 1-8 (maybe up to 12 occasionally). Guy number one plays in higher level scenarios often enough that he's been frustrated when a character he loves his overly limited by restrictions that no longer make in sense in context. The bulk of players don't want the Fighter to suddenly gain magical powers at level 1, they just want him and other martial classes to be able to grow and expand in a fashion that makes sense.
Example: I once played in a high level one-off where my character was big beefy Paladin with lots of muscles and charm and very little smarts. During the first chunk of the adventure, I shrugged off what should have been a fatal attack from a devil prince, wrestled an ancient red wyrm in a lake of lava, and then was totally flummoxed when we got to an indestructible fortress floating 50 feet above the ground. The party wizard felt so bad for me blew two teleports to leave, buy me a magic carpet, and come back.
That's stupid (and I'm not just referring to me playing a high level game and forgetting to pack along something that would let me fly). It's stupid that a 50 foot gap can completely shut down a character capable of grappling with wyrms and wading through death effects like they aren't even there unless they have magical assistance.
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Because that's how magic works. Let me make an analogy. Asking those questions in a magical setting is similar to me asking the following:
I am quite capable of understand that that is how the rules work. But rules can be changed, so my question is why do the rules work this way when other solutions could be more intuitive?
^^^
Pretty much this... I feel like a lot of high level martials should, in all fairness, look almost like anime fight scenes. A high level martial should be able to do rediculous jumps, slashes that are so fast that he creates a sonic boom, smash into the groud to cause craters, ect...
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"Destroying a mountain" might be overstating it, but Thor and Hercules did move Manhattan a couple times in the Marvel 'verse.
Thor and the Incredible Hulk aren't exactly bad templates for a 20th level fighter and barbarian, respectively.
I haven't noticed a design bias against giving martials magical abilities. I've seen a player bias for not wanting certain character concepts to have magical abilities but still wanting to do, well, extraordinary things. I've also seen other player bias for wanting martials to be able to do martial things in a magical way (e.g., anime-slicing the air 50 feet away without convoluted physics explanations). Pathfinder supports both character types--sometimes even within the same class--and most disputes I've seen regarding "Why can't my fighter do X?" are best resolved with the response "Why not play a class that can do X?". (Every other martial class besides fighter (and rogue, if you consider them martial) has magical powers of some sort available to them in some respect, so I assume this discussion stems from those classes.)
Not sure what my opinion is worth, though. I'm not in a position to diagnose design bias from the insider perspective you have, but the subject of the blog post has been a non-issue from both a playing and GMing experience (experiences which, obviously, differ immensely from table to table). But that's how I see it.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Hulk held up a mountain range once in Secret Wars.
It seems to me the simple solution to those who insist that martials shouldn't be able to do "magical" things is to make them optional. We already have structures like fighter bonus feats, rogue talents, and rage powers, so use those structures to introduce some more fantastic options. Then people who didn't want "their" fighter to have those abilities don't have to choose them, while those who like them have the option.
Sadly, this likely won't work because of people who want to control what others can play.
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When the Mythic rules were being previewed, I recall people getting upset that magical powers were available for Fighters via the champion path.
Even though these were by definition mythic abilities and optional in any case. And the Champion powers have to support several classes that DO have access to magic abilities.
People are weird.
Edit: I was totally replying to blahpers, not ryric, but this works better as a reply to what ryric said, so I guess that worked out pretty well.
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Kolo, getting rid of the distinction isn't the cure to the problem, it's what leads to the perception shift (to use your words), in order to alter the design bias that leads to the problem. Lemme quote what I said in my most recent reply:
In other words: by getting rid of the fixation on whether or not an ability is magic, you can get rid of a (perhaps subconscious) design bias against giving martial classes magical abilities. If it doesn't matter if an ability is magic or not, it doesn't matter if the character class "is magic" or not... just give the class abilities that are appropriate to the theme of the class (fighting, sneaking, healing, whatever).Much in the way that the discovery of bacteria didn't cure disease, it allowed scientists to change their understanding of the cause of disease (away from "demons" and "unbalanced humours") so they could finally work on targeting the actual problem (by dealing with germs rather than demons and humours).
The thing is, you might be addressing the design bias, but not the bias amongst the players. I dont think the Su label is the issue. Its what the ability actually does. If you created a series of Ex abilities that allowed the fighter to jump 100ft in the air, full attack the dragon, give it a concussion (confused condition) and then land on its back directing it to fly into a wall, people would still cry 'anime'. Because somehow fighters, cavaliers, rogues and to a degree monks are all playing lord of the rings, and everyone else is playing, well, dnd.
We are part of a community that seems perfectly ok with a high level wizard's ability to literally gate in a snall army of angels to help him, but cry foul at the friggan leadership feat.
You cant deal with that by making a subtle shift like eliminating the distinction between Su and Ex abilities. All that does is erode the codification that most 3.x fans (the happy ones at least) really like.
You deal with it with rather sweeping changes/alternate rules. You toss out much of the remaining simulationist nature of pathfinder combat, and you focus on making it dynamic and interesting. You do it by curtailing the world altering power of magic/supernatural abilities OR by puting world shapping power in the hands of those who dont have such abilities.
You would obviously know this better then I, but it seems to me like paizo's devs have found a comfort zone, or sweet spot in the 'bard chasis' class. It seems to me there have been alotof new designs that mix magic into a martial class. The alchemist, summoner, inquisitor, and magus, and soon the warpriest, skald, hunter and investigator. In the original 11 there was just the bard with that frame. I dont think it is a coincidence that it was chosen so often. It offers the option of the 'because magic' excuse for cool powers that do wild things but still leaves room for skill and prowess in the mundane (using skills and stabing things with sharp bits of metal).
I honestly think that kind of blending, whether literal (a caster martial mix) or metaphorical (martial classes with fantastic or world shaping abilities not based on magic) is the answer.
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It seems to me the simple solution to those who insist that martials shouldn't be able to do "magical" things is to make them optional. We already have structures like fighter bonus feats, rogue talents, and rage powers, so use those structures to introduce some more fantastic options. Then people who didn't want "their" fighter to have those abilities don't have to choose them, while those who like them have the option.
Sadly, this likely won't work because of people who want to control what others can play.
Word. They actually already did this with the Barbarian, and it's one of the reasons he's widely regarded as one of the best, if not the best, of the martial classes.
I very much agree that all of the framework is there to grant the existing martial classes capabilities more in line with those you'd expect at higher levels, but there does seem to be a current working against allowing those options to happen.
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You would obviously know this better then I, but it seems to me like paizo's devs have found a comfort zone, or sweet spot in the 'bard chasis' class. It seems to me there have been alotof new designs that mix magic into a martial class. The alchemist, summoner, inquisitor, and magus, and soon the warpriest, skald, hunter and investigator. In the original 11 there was just the bard with that frame. I dont think it is a coincidence that it was chosen so often. It offers the option of the 'because magic' excuse for cool powers that do wild things but still leaves room for skill and prowess in the mundane (using skills and stabing things with sharp bits of metal).
If I had my way, caster progression would be inversely linked to HD/BAB.
9-level casters (1/2 spell level per level) all get 1/2 BAB (Wizards, Sorcers, Witches are unchanged, Clerics, Oracles, Shamans get downgraded.)
6-level casters (1/3 spell level per level) all get 3/4 BAB (This shouldn't change anyone)
4-level casters (1/4 spell level per level) and non-casters get full BAB (Rogues and monks get upgraded)
And non-casters should probably get lots of neat class features.
You would obviously know this better then I, but it seems to me like paizo's devs have found a comfort zone, or sweet spot in the 'bard chasis' class. It seems to me there have been alotof new designs that mix magic into a martial class. The alchemist, summoner, inquisitor, and magus, and soon the warpriest, skald, hunter and investigator. In the original 11 there was just the bard with that frame. I dont think it is a coincidence that it was chosen so often. It offers the option of the 'because magic' excuse for cool powers that do wild things but still leaves room for skill and prowess in the mundane (using skills and stabing things with sharp bits of metal).If I had my way, caster progression would be inversely linked to HD/BAB.
9-level casters (1/2 spell level per level) all get 1/2 BAB (Wizards, Sorcers, Witches are unchanged, Clerics, Oracles, Shamans get downgraded.)
6-level casters (1/3 spell level per level) all get 3/4 BAB (This shouldn't change anyone)
4-level casters (1/4 spell level per level) and non-casters get full BAB (Rogues and monks get upgraded)
And non-casters should probably get lots of neat class features.
While i dont disagree with the sentiment, I am not sure divine magic as it stands is enough to sustain something like the cleric if it had 1/2 bab. Obviously you could just offer other class features to make up for it. But it makes the 'battle cleric' concept a difficult sell. Granted we have the warpriest soon, so maybe its time to put that to bed. And honestly the druid gets so much other stuff, it probably should have had 6 level casting to begin with.
But it makes the 'battle cleric' concept a difficult sell. Granted we have the warpriest soon, so maybe its time to put that to bed. And honestly the druid gets so much other stuff, it probably should have had 6 level casting to begin with.
The cleric (and druid) are weird because they have to support the robe-wearing caster as well as the martial extremist, and kind of bend the power curve as a result.
The wizard has a more versatile spell list than a cleric, but clerics have more access to their list and a 9th level spell is still a 9th level spell. But the cleric also doesn't have spell failure from armor and hits better, when they bother to swing a weapon instead of casting a spell.
Now that we have the Warpriest and Hunter, I would prefer to make clerics back into just priests.
Druids really only need that BAB when wildshaping. It might be more elegant to give them a transformation or divine power type bonus when wildshaping, rather than make them also great with a shillelagh.
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While i dont disagree with the sentiment, I am not sure divine magic as it stands is enough to sustain something like the cleric if it had 1/2 bab. Obviously you could just offer other class features to make up for it. But it makes the 'battle cleric' concept a difficult sell. Granted we have the warpriest soon, so maybe its time to put that to bed. And honestly the druid gets so much other stuff, it probably should have had 6 level casting to begin with.
I think with the existence of the Warpriest, I'd be okay with a world where the cleric was more like the WoW priest, more of the clositered, cassock and gown type, possibly with some of their abilities fleshed out. Grafting the Boons introduced in the Inner Sea Gods supplement directly to the chassis would probably round it out nicely.
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It doesn't matter whether an ability is Su or Ex. ToB martial disciplines have a really small percentage of Su maneuvers (it's like what, 2? 3? in just one discipline?) and yet the whole book is "TOO ANIME!"
Almost 2 entire disciplines are Su (Desert Wind and... I think it was called Shadow Hand), with other Su scattered throughout. I think many of those could and should have been Ex though.
I think the other thing that's being discussed, on some level, is scale as well. Maybe level 1 is a little early for the core product to accomodate a guy spinning his sword so fast he creates sparks of scorching flame. But by level 10 or 15? Something like that should be par for the course.
Quick correction. Those are not Pro-martials. They are anti-martials that claim to like martials a lot but really mean they like low level play a lot. People who point out how weak martials are and how powerful casters can be are the pro-martials. Those people who don't like non-spellcasters to have anything they consider to be magical are literally the reason we real pro-martials can't have nice things.
I disagree. Especially I disagree with "how weak martials are and how powerful casters' since it's simply not true, at least in IRL tabletop play.
However, I agree with SKR in that really "Ex vs Su" has no real reason for being there anymore. We already have martials with Su ( the Paladin, barbarian & Monk), so I don't see the issue. But OTOH, what's wrong with having just one class (fighter) that doesn't have anything too far out of the ordinary?
"You also get rid of the idea that “martial characters don’t have magic, and therefore can’t do amazing things because they’re limited to what nonmagical people can do in the real world.” But Paladins can do those things, so can the Monk and barbarian. (There's even a few Su abilities for the Ranger). And of course the Ninja has Su stuff.
Just enhance and come up with more archetypes for those four martial classes that give "amazing things" above and beyond what "nonmagical people can do in the real world."
Leave the Fighter alone. Sure, better saves, more SkP would be nice next ed, and a Magic hunter archetype would be nice. But there should be ONE class that is tied to the mundane.