Ex, Su, and Martial Characters

[CWheezy]

I disagree on colour spray, considering it is an aoe save or die for many levels while cleave is really awkward.

Also, when you use grease, there is no chance of you greasing yourself or having to drop your spell component pouch, unlike with trip

[Jiggy]

Mr. Bubbles wrote:

I can definitely see a martial Disintegrate equivalent being some sort of extremely powerful bow attack, something which amounts to an arrow-based MAC cannon (or Ashitaka's bow in Princess Mononoke) that leaves the poor target's compatriots going "What the hell was THAT?!"

Honestly the idea Jiggy presented seems both reasonable, balanced, and (this is the important part) FUN. Using a polished shield for a color spray equivalent or making a called strike on a pressure point for sleep? These are things I want to see in Pathfinder.

Honestly even these are more specific than I was even meaning. I'd just be happy if the ones with the X/day save-or-die effects were the people who are trained solely in hurting people (fighters) instead of the people who have the widest variety of other options/capabilities (wizards/clerics).

[Aelryinth]

Throwing the force of your sword so you have a ranged attack with it is so common in anime it's a trope - wind blades, or a razor wind. It's all over in Bleach, too...most of Ichigo's Getsuga attacks are basically wind blades.

And guess what? They gave the Jade Regent in that AP a sword that basically does the same thing.

==Aelryinth

[Jiggy]

CWheezy wrote:

Also, when you use grease, there is no chance of you greasing yourself

What happens in Vegas...

[Kirth Gersen]

I struggled with this because my group was very anti "x-day" for martial abilities. Eventually we took a cue from Vital Strike and targeted the action economy instead: this effect requires you to give up iterative attacks; this other one requires a move action; etc.

This makes BAB more meaningful, because you get access to better effects faster that way. It makes combat more dynamic, because you're giving up iteratives to do other stuff. We're pretty happy with that approach.

[Lincoln Hills]

Interesting. We're all used to casters giving up actions/round (as well as uses/day) but aside from most Combat Maneuvers - and a few corner cases like the Stalwart Defender's 'stance' - this hasn't come up much for martials.

(EDIT: Originally I went on to talk of 'stances' based on 4E Essentials, but on consideration I'll save it. Plenty of other threads out there about "fixing" weapon-focused classes. I'm sure it's been brought up before. Though I'll comment that those abilities were all (Ex) by our standards.)

[Aelryinth]

Burning AoO's for other actions then attacks should totally be a thing, too.

===Aelryinth

[137ben]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

I struggled with this because my group was very anti "x-day" for martial abilities. Eventually we took a cue from Vital Strike and targeted the action economy instead: this effect requires you to give up iterative attacks; this other one requires a move action; etc.

This makes BAB more meaningful, because you get access to better effects faster that way. It makes combat more dynamic, because you're giving up iteratives to do other stuff. We're pretty happy with that approach.

Although, depending too much on BAB has the side effect of messing up the classes that are designed as "medium BAB, but we secretly want it to be full BAB but don't want you to realize it is more versatile than the fighter so well call it medium BAB and hide some attack bonuses", like the monk and inquisitor.

[Arachnofiend]

I think you'd necessarily have to convert the Monk to a full BAB class for this to work. It really doesn't make sense for them not to be anyways.

The Inquisitor, Magus, and other 6-level spellcasting martials can live without these abilities. Having to get them later and them not being as useful would be a disadvantage they have to live with in exchange for access to spells.

[Orfamay Quest]

Lincoln Hills wrote:

Aside from the issue that weapons don't do "half damage on a miss", the problem I always had with that sort of attack was justifying the limitations. 'Spread' rules make sense in an explosion but don't really translate well when it's a storm of missiles:

You needn't assume that the limitations are identical, just comparable. As I said, fireball is a ranged area-attack spell. Lightning bolt is also a ranged area-attack spell.

I think there's room for hail of daggers doing damage in a line-shaped area without a save -- but presumably doing less than 1d6/level damage. (1d3 damage/level would balance out almost perfectly, but I'd be inclined instead to have it do normal weapon damage, including bonus damage, which feels more martial to me.) It would also probably not be energy damage, so it would be affected by DR but not by energy immunity, and so forth.

[Kirth Gersen]

Yeah, our monk is more like a ki paladin: full BAB, psuedo-half-casting in place of the PF random mishmash abilities (feather fall in place of slow fall, etc.). But that's getting pretty far off-topic.

[Orfamay Quest]

Jiggy wrote:

Mr. Bubbles wrote:

Using a polished shield for a color spray equivalent or making a called strike on a pressure point for sleep? These are things I want to see in Pathfinder.

Honestly even these are more specific than I was even meaning. I'd just be happy if the ones with the X/day save-or-die effects were the people who are trained solely in hurting people (fighters) instead of the people who have the widest variety of other options/capabilities (wizards/clerics).

I think it helps the martial "feel" if you have normal explanations for what people can do, especially for what "normal" people can do.

I mean, knocking someone out is standard. James Bond's girlfriend can knock people out, and so can any halfway decent boxer -- but a 10th level fighter can't. The idea of a deliberate knockout punch shouldn't be controversial.

[Aelryinth]

137ben wrote:

Kirth Gersen wrote:

I struggled with this because my group was very anti "x-day" for martial abilities. Eventually we took a cue from Vital Strike and targeted the action economy instead: this effect requires you to give up iterative attacks; this other one requires a move action; etc.

This makes BAB more meaningful, because you get access to better effects faster that way. It makes combat more dynamic, because you're giving up iteratives to do other stuff. We're pretty happy with that approach.

Although, depending too much on BAB has the side effect of messing up the classes that are designed as "medium BAB, but we secretly want it to be full BAB but don't want you to realize it is more versatile than the fighter so well call it medium BAB and hide some attack bonuses", like the monk and inquisitor.

Inuisitor, yeah, bane and judgements do that.

But Monk? Only on a full attack. And that's pretty dumb when you're playing the fastest and most mobile class in the game. He can only hit stuff when he's not moving?

==Aelyrinth

[Kthulhu]

I think a lot of these things shouldn't even be feats...they should just be either class abilities or general "any character can try to do this" rules.

After all, one of the big problems with fighters is that their big thing is bonus feats....but most of the good feats they would want are hidden behind a string of bad to mediocre prerequisites . To the point that they end up getting LESS feats they actually wanted than a character with NO bonus feats.

[Sean K Reynolds]

I like where this conversation has gone in the past 24 hours (although I'm surprised to see it, given that the thread was quiet for a couple of weeks). :)

[137ben]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I like where this conversation has gone in the past 24 hours (although I'm surprised to see it, given that the thread was quiet for a couple of weeks). :)

Ooh, good point! What can martial characters do that is comparable to Zone of Silence?

:-)

[Kthulhu]

Punch people in the mouth until they shut up.

[Jiggy]

Fantasy-level intimidate? Or a non-skill-based (i.e., feat or class feature) save-or-be-speechless-in-the-presence-of-my-badassery ability?

[Ross Byers]

137ben wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I like where this conversation has gone in the past 24 hours (although I'm surprised to see it, given that the thread was quiet for a couple of weeks). :)

Ooh, good point! What can martial characters do that is comparable to Zone of Silence?

:-)

Whisper (maybe a Stealth roll to keep from being overheard?), or use Bluff to pass a secret message, so that even if people overhear, they don't understand.

[kyrt-ryder]

Aelryinth wrote:

Burning AoO's for other actions then attacks should totally be a thing, too.

===Aelryinth

Agreed, AoO's (and Attacks within a Full Attack Action [without automatically spending the best attack, although spending the best attack for a better yield should be an option] as well) are a resource that Martial abilities should be exploiting.

[Rynjin]

Jiggy wrote:

blahpers wrote:

Please don't mistake my bluntness for hostility, but . . . why? I just don't see how there's anything to be gained by this. I don't expect a (vanilla, non-archetyped, not-augmented-by-magical-infusions-or-whatnot) fighter to be able to cut a hole in the dimensional fabric without a magic blade/subtle knife/whatever. I don't expect a fighter to slash the air and cause meteors to fall from the sky. I don't expect a fighter to flex their muscles a la Armstrong to cause a charm person effect. It's just not their thing. If the system is going to be class based, the one thing classes should never be is completely interchangeable. Otherwise, it's better to ditch classes altogether and go with a build point or similar system.

That's not what I'm suggesting. The fact that some magical effects just don't make sense for nonmagical means is exactly why I wrote steps 4 and 5. Did you get that far?

EDIT: Maybe more examples would help.

I'm not talking about using your fighting spirit to replicate the effects of levitate, but maybe at the level that casters get levitate I could spend a feat/talent to be able to jump really, really well. Like, maybe even better than a commoner with the same ranks. Is that making the classes "interchangeable"?

The main issue I have with some of these things is that they require Feats.

Martial characters shouldn't need to spend a Feat slot on being able to jump REALLY REALLY HIGH...that should just be a natural consequence of having a high Acrobatics.

Tweaking the skill system so having X ranks in a skill trumps "I cast a spell" would fix a lot of issues, and open up a great deal of options.

If at every 5 Climb ranks you got a 10 ft. Climb speed (Ditto Swim), Spider Climb (and Fly) and Touch of the Sea aren't suddenly options that are no brainers any more when you want to do those things. Or if with a high Sense Motive or Perception you could do a "Sherlock Scan" of the room (noting weapons, general combat ability of the occupants, very small things nobody would normally see like a drop of blood on apiece of tape hanging from the underside of a cabinet door). Or intimidate having various effects besides simple Demoralize (EX: Spooking somebody so bad they can't scream, aiding in stealth and whatnot when you encounter a guard).

Reward high skill investment with more than "I can do a far, FAR inferior version...but it's unlimited I guess!".

Reserve the Feats (or Class Features) for the truly outlandish. The aforementioned "Banishing Blow" sending back summons to whence they came and things like that.

Combined with shortening or flat out removing many Feat chains (Combat Expertise...why are you the roadblock to so many fun things? Though ditto the Improved Maneuver Feats in general), and making many options like Power Attack or Combat Expertise that are just "-X, +Y" core options anyone can use and the game is a hell of a lot closer to being balanced.

[Drock11]

Jiggy wrote:

You know what would be a fun experiment?

1) Go through the cleric and wizard spell lists, taking note of the most commonly used spells of each spell level. (You know, the staples like grease, scorching ray, haste, blindness/deafness, summon monster, cloudkill, teleport, etc.)

2) For each such spell, check whether or not martials can do something comparable at about the same level. (For instance, scorching ray is "deal damage at range", which martials can in fact do. Comprehend languages is just a temporary shortcut version of putting ranks into Linguistics. Grease is comparable to the trip maneuver. Etc.)

3) If a spell is not something that martials can do a comparable version of, then create a fighter feat or rogue talent (requiring a class level of 2X the spell level, or the same level a sorc/oracle would get that spell) that does something comparable. Not identical, but comparable. (For example, for plane shift, maybe a Fighter12 can take a feat that lets him shatter/cut reality such that he forces open a temporary portal to another plane and anyone in that square has to save or get sucked in. Maybe it requires Knowledge [planes] 12 ranks and is usable 1/day. Something.)

4) If you can't come up with an appropriate martial ability that's comparable to the spell, instead come up with a martial ability that counters it. Maybe a fighter can cut the magic of a summon spell, ending it prematurely. Something.

5) This is important: if you can't come up with a way for a martial to do something as cool and powerful as a given spell, ban that spell.

I wonder what this process could give us—both in terms of character options, and in terms of insight into the current system.

I can see some downfalls of this. One being that cutting spells and other magical abilities that have been a part of the game and fantasy literature for a long time now left and right to equalize martial classes would, in my opinion, make for a much more boring fantasy game and the settings that used it would be more boring or at least a lot more restrictive for those that don't want to play low magic settings.

Things like powerful and varied magic effects are part of what makes the game and places like Golarion so great.

Another one is that there is only so much swinging a weapon can do without straining credulity. Trying to shoehorn in abilities to mimic all the magical effects out there would lead to much more of that than not. At that point it's better to just say everybody has magic and be done with it than to pretend non-magical things can do blatantly magical stuff.

With that said some ideas on this thread might have some merit to give fighters more varied and interesting options on what their attacks do, but I would have a problem with them getting any wacky out there ability so they could keep up with spells and supernatural effects that have infinite variety. At that point we're not playing the same game anymore.

[Rynjin]

Not sure there's a problem with that.

None of this will come to pass without a 2nd edition or new game anyway, so we wouldn't be playing the same game regardless (or I hope not...no point making a new edition if you don't change anything).

[MagusJanus]

I have to agree with Rynjin. This won't be the same game once the next edition hits. And I don't think that's a bad thing. It's a chance for the game to move beyond its DnD roots and truly become its own.

[blahpers]

Aelryinth wrote:

Burning AoO's for other actions then attacks should totally be a thing, too.

===Aelryinth

This, I can get behind. I'd love to see more options for subbing standard action maneuvers for attacks besides Maneuver Master.

[Orfamay Quest]

Rynjin wrote:

Not sure there's a problem with that.

None of this will come to pass without a 2nd edition or new game anyway, so we wouldn't be playing the same game regardless (or I hope not...no point making a new edition if you don't change anything).

Well, some of it could be implemented by creating new options for fighters.

If we decide that silence is unbalancing, we can deal with it by nerfing/banning the spell, or by giving martials a silence-like option.

It would be easy enough simply to produce a PFS-sanctioned 101 Rogue Talents That Don't Suck supplement and immediately give rogues a much-needed boost under the same edition.

[Ross Byers]

Silence serves two purposes. One is to shut down spellcasters. In theory, a martial character can do that with damage, readied actions, grappling, that kind of thing. Those rules could certainly be streamlined and made more useful.
Another potential idea might be a Countersong-like ability where you confuse a spellcaster by shouting syllables while they're trying to recall their incantation. Sort of like calling out random numbers at someone who is trying to count.

The other purpose of silence is to avoid certain kinds of detection. The Stealth skill covers 99% of this. (Corner cases like messing with blindsight are the kind of things I don't think need to parallel between spells and non-spells.)

[Arachnofiend]

I feel like the ability to be so obnoxious you throw off a wizard's spellcasting would make a perfect rogue talent.

[MagusJanus]

How about an ability to let out a shout of rage or fury that disrupts anything with verbal components or which is musical?

[Ross Byers]

Arachnofiend wrote:

I feel like the ability to be so obnoxious you throw off a wizard's spellcasting would make a perfect rogue talent.

Arcane Annoyance (Ex): You know how to vary and repeat vocal components in a way that breaks the concentration of spellcasters. Any opposed spellcaster that begins casting a spell with a vocal component within 20 feet of you must succeed at a concentration check with a DC of 5 + your rogue level + your Charisma bonus + the spell level or lose the spell.

[9mm]

I remember back when me and my friends were trying to re-write 3.5 before going whole hog into a new system, our fighter fix had the fighter learn from his scars; taking the creatures who he fought abilities as his own. "be careful fighting monsters, lest yo become one yourself. Lest you become WARMARKED"

Basically we ended up dodging the whole EX, SU, ect. issue by saying that after a point there was nothing normal about what you were doing anymore. Overall it was an over-designed mess of a class; but it did actually lay down some of the ground work that led to Legends's class track system.

[Arachnofiend]

Ross Byers wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

I feel like the ability to be so obnoxious you throw off a wizard's spellcasting would make a perfect rogue talent.

Arcane Annoyance (Ex): You know how to vary and repeat vocal components in a way that breaks the concentration of spellcasters. Any opposed spellcaster that begins casting a spell with a vocal component within 20 feet of you must succeed at a concentration check with a DC of 5 + your rogue level + your Charisma bonus + the spell level or lose the spell.

I think you should have to spend a resource for it to work, not just have it on all the time. Maybe you could spend an AoO in reaction to the spell being cast?

[Ross Byers]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

I feel like the ability to be so obnoxious you throw off a wizard's spellcasting would make a perfect rogue talent.

Arcane Annoyance (Ex): You know how to vary and repeat vocal components in a way that breaks the concentration of spellcasters. Any opposed spellcaster that begins casting a spell with a vocal component within 20 feet of you must succeed at a concentration check with a DC of 5 + your rogue level + your Charisma bonus + the spell level or lose the spell.

I think you should have to spend a resource for it to work, not just have it on all the time. Maybe you could spend an AoO in reaction to the spell being cast?

I set the DC lowish because it was passive. You're right that it should be an action. How about this:

Arcane Annoyance (Ex): You know how to vary and repeat vocal components in a way that breaks the concentration of spellcasters. When an opposed spellcaster begins casting a spell with a vocal component within 30 feet of you, you may try to interrupt him as an immediate action that provokes an attack of opportunity. If you do, the spellcaster must succeed at a concentration check with a DC of 10 + your rogue level + your Charisma bonus + the spell level or lose the spell.

[Rynjin]

9mm wrote:

I remember back when me and my friends were trying to re-write 3.5 before going whole hog into a new system, our fighter fix had the fighter learn from his scars; taking the creatures who he fought abilities as his own. "be careful fighting monsters, lest yo become one yourself. Lest you become WARMARKED"

Basically we ended up dodging the whole EX, SU, ect. issue by saying that after a point there was nothing normal about what you were doing anymore. Overall it was an over-designed mess of a class; but it did actually lay down some of the ground work that led to Legends's class track system.

Sounds a lot like the 3PP Taskshaper class.

Class is pretty rad...though honestly a bit broken.

[Aelryinth]

Spending a feat to jump really well has precedence if you look at fiction. 'Lightfoot' varied tremendously from one fighting school to the next. While kung fu films would like to lead us to believe all kung fu masters at better at balance then tightrope artists, in the comics there is a definite divide between 'heavyfoot' that enhances stability and balance, and 'lightfoot' that emphasizes speed and jumping around. Certain schools were better at one then the former.

Your fastest schools in a straight line weren't always the best at jumping, either. It was all in the flavor. Entirely possible to have the fastest lightfoot in the kingdom be unable to feather-step across the lilypads of a pond. Cotton body techniques that rolled with every punch by giving in to the pressure were totally a part of the whole 'lightfoot' shtick.

In short, I can see burning a feat to jump really well as being appropriate. You just have to define what 'really well' is. that's where the power lies.

==Aelryinth

[Atarlost]

Being annoying should never ever have mechanical benefits. We do not want to encourage people to roleplay being annoying. Doing so is annoying in the real world.

[Arachnofiend]

I think an understanding that using an ability does not necessarily mean you have to act it out would remedy that. I mean, we're not LARPing here. I'll let Mr. Rogue act out being loud and obnoxious at the table if Ms. Barbarian gets to act out knocking him out with a hammer.

[Aelryinth]

Mechanically, telling a pun so awful it enrages an intelligent enemy would be about the same thing, wouldn't it?

==Aelryinth

[MagusJanus]

Aelryinth wrote:

Mechanically, telling a pun so awful it enrages an intelligent enemy would be about the same thing, wouldn't it?

==Aelryinth

But how else are they supposed to get the thrust of the situation unless you stab them with puns until they get the point?

[Khrysaor]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

I feel like the ability to be so obnoxious you throw off a wizard's spellcasting would make a perfect rogue talent.

Arcane Annoyance (Ex): You know how to vary and repeat vocal components in a way that breaks the concentration of spellcasters. Any opposed spellcaster that begins casting a spell with a vocal component within 20 feet of you must succeed at a concentration check with a DC of 5 + your rogue level + your Charisma bonus + the spell level or lose the spell.

I think you should have to spend a resource for it to work, not just have it on all the time. Maybe you could spend an AoO in reaction to the spell being cast?

Immediate actions would work for this. AoOs make combat reflexes insanely powerful for shutting down casters.

***********
The super high jump thing can happen with ninjas already. Unfortunately the rules for falling still apply even if physics says your muscles are capable of landing if you performed the jump.

I agree that skills should see more benefit coupled to them, but not just based on ranks. Make it based on hitting a base bonus to rolls. That way class skills make you achieve greatness faster and investing feats like skill focus and a high stat also impact this. This should still need a big roll like a +15 or 20 modifier to grant a climb speed. Not losing dex, run actions while climbing, and an inherent +8 for a climb speed is a powerful deal. This still provides benefit to everyone.

How would giving martials more action economy as they level impact things? Martials would be able to get off more actions in a round, like move and full attack, where casters are bound to the current scenario. Spells seem like they should require more as you level up due to intricate gestures and wording where maneuvering through combat should be getting easier for martials. A caster can throw out magic missile as fast as they could tsunami and in this transition of 17 levels full BAB classes learned to swing their weapons 3 more times (some only 2 more) a round with diminishing accuracy.

[kyrt-ryder]

Ross Byers wrote:

(Corner cases like messing with blindsight are the kind of things I don't think need to parallel between spells and non-spells.)

I couldn't agree more. Magic getting to BS past a physical quality is not something I can approve of. Making Blindsight follow the Cover rules and giving them a bonus (+5? +10 perhaps?) to perceive someone stealthing through concealment only, however, I would be down for.

[LoneKnave]

Quote:

The super high jump thing can happen with ninjas already. Unfortunately the rules for falling still apply even if physics says your muscles are capable of landing if you performed the jump.

Short fix: your jump acrobatics roll also counts as your acrobatics roll for softening the fall, and softening is uncapped (DC5 for the first then feet and + 10 for every 10 feet after sounds about right maybe?). Short and sweet.

[kyrt-ryder]

Khrysaor wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

I feel like the ability to be so obnoxious you throw off a wizard's spellcasting would make a perfect rogue talent.

Arcane Annoyance (Ex): You know how to vary and repeat vocal components in a way that breaks the concentration of spellcasters. Any opposed spellcaster that begins casting a spell with a vocal component within 20 feet of you must succeed at a concentration check with a DC of 5 + your rogue level + your Charisma bonus + the spell level or lose the spell.

I think you should have to spend a resource for it to work, not just have it on all the time. Maybe you could spend an AoO in reaction to the spell being cast?

Immediate actions would work for this. AoOs make combat reflexes insanely powerful for shutting down casters.

Good. Casters need to be shut down more. That being said, this DOES yield a lot of power the the Combat Reflexes feat, but it's at the cost of taking both limited options. I'm not seeing anything wrong with that.

Quote:

I agree that skills should see more benefit coupled to them, but not just based on ranks. Make it based on hitting a base bonus to rolls. That way class skills make you achieve greatness faster and investing feats like skill focus and a high stat also impact this.

Then treat Class Skill Bonus and Feat/Trait bonus as virtual ranks. Otherwise you're giving casters with a +30 spell or some random schmuck with 1 rank in the skill and a +XX competence bonus item powerful abilities that should be limited to those who actually invested in the skill.

Quote:

This should still need a big roll like a +15 or 20 modifier to grant a climb speed.

No, it shouldn't. The best climbers in the world should not be trumped by a second level spell. If you have sufficient total ranks (including virtual ranks) you have a climb speed based on the number of them.

Quote:

Not losing dex, run actions while climbing, and an inherent +8 for a climb speed is a powerful deal.

All available for the low low price of a second level spell. Starting to see the problem?

Quote:

How would giving martials more action economy as they level impact things? Martials would be able to get off more actions in a round, like move and full attack, where casters are bound to the current scenario. Spells seem like they should require more as you level up due to intricate gestures and wording where maneuvering through combat should be getting easier for martials. A caster can throw out magic missile as fast as they could tsunami and in this transition of 17 levels full BAB classes learned to swing their weapons 3 more times (some only 2 more) a round with diminishing accuracy.

This is actually something I've been experimenting with. Granting more actions based on BAB total, and requiring more actions of the highest level spells (because casters get BAB too, but more slowly than dedicated martials.)

It's a delicate scenario, but I have to say some of the results are pretty entertaining. I just worry that I might start seeing option paralysis at high levels when the martial gets multiple separate actions.

[Kthulhu]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Stuff

Maybe spells that boost a skill could, instead of providing a static bonus, provide a bonus based upon the target's ranks in that skill. So a spell to boost Stealth cast on a rogue with 20 ranks would give him an ADDITIONAL +20, but if.cast on the wizard with only a.single rank, it would only.provide him a +1.

[Khrysaor]

Holy hostility, Batman!

I wasn't suggesting anything about spells. It was a response to Rynjins post about granting a climb speed every 5 ranks.

I don't know many spells that give a +30 to a skill. Spider climb gives a climb speed and the inherent +8 that comes with it. Jump can give up to +30 to jumping, but still has nothing on a ninja. Not sure what else there is for huge skill boosts.

The low low price of a 2nd level spell is too rich for a 1st or 2nd level wizard and a 3rd level sorcerer, a steep price for a 3rd or 4th level wizard who could use that spell slot better elsewhere, and at fifth level the wizard can cast fly.

The easiest solution is to give a climb speed based on skill ranks, but should still be representative of ability to give value to class skills, feats, traits, stats, and anything else. At 5,10,15,20 ranks you gain a speed equivalent to your ranks by reaching a set modifier level. Giving a speed based on ranks alone trivializes terrain and an entire set of pit spells.

Going by the 5 ranks minimum and a +15 mod to gain a climb speed a fighter with 20 strength could have a +13 modifier. Using a climbers kit it bumps up to +15 and that fighter has a climb speed of 5 that comes complete with another +8 inherent bonus to climb putting him to a +23 modifier. The fifth level fighter can always take 10 due to a climb speed and has a roll of 33 which gets him out of a 4th level spell with ease. A 5th level fighter should not be able to defeat a 7th level wizard casting a 4th level spell by just putting ranks into a skill and keeping his primary stat at a good level.

[havoc xiii]

Dotting

[Khrysaor]

Khrysaor wrote:

The easiest solution is to give a climb speed based on skill ranks, but should still be representative of ability to give value to class skills, feats, traits, stats, and anything else. At 5,10,15,20 ranks you gain a speed equivalent to your ranks by reaching a set modifier level. Giving a speed based on ranks alone trivializes terrain and an entire set of pit spells.

Going by the 5 ranks minimum and a +15 mod to gain a climb speed a fighter with 20 strength could have a +13 modifier. Using a climbers kit it bumps up to +15 and that fighter has a climb speed of 5 that comes complete with another +8 inherent bonus to climb putting him to a +23 modifier. The fifth level fighter can always take 10 due to a climb speed and has a roll of 33 which gets him out of a 4th level spell with ease. A 5th level fighter should not be able to defeat a 7th level wizard casting a 4th level spell by just putting ranks into a skill and keeping his primary stat at a good level.

Then again it takes the fighter 3 rounds to get out of an acid pit double moving which is still effective. Spiked pit is DC 20 to climb out so the same fighter can rush with a -5 and get out of the pit in one round with a double move. This is still due to the fighters strength and class skill so other classes like a rogue with 5 ranks +3 class +2 kit +1-2 strength only has a +11-12 modifier which doesn't qualify for the climb speed, but they could still escape the pit just taking longer.

Seems reasonable.

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

Two thoughts I'd like to add:

there are certain spells it's assumed martials need to be effective at medium and high levels (optimization threads list spells like haste as prerequisites for optimized martials), I think martials should have abilities giving them those or similar effects without needing a spellcaster to cast it on them;

I think martials (especially fighters) need an ability to break spells, dispelling or destroying active effects and countering spells with a readied action. A spellcaster can fly with fickle winds active and do a lot of damage, I think martials need to be able to dispel/destroy effects like fickle winds and wall of force.

[Khrysaor]

ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:

Two thoughts I'd like to add:

there are certain spells it's assumed martials need to be effective at medium and high levels (optimization threads list spells like haste as prerequisites for optimized martials), I think martials should have abilities giving them those or similar effects without needing a spellcaster to cast it on them;

I think martials (especially fighters) need an ability to break spells, dispelling or destroying active effects and countering spells with a readied action. A spellcaster can fly with fickle winds active and do a lot of damage, I think martials need to be able to dispel/destroy effects like fickle winds and wall of force.

Your first point only serves to make casters stronger. Haste isn't a spell wizards use for themselves it's to benefit the rest of the party. Helping melee get into position and granting a bonus to hit and reflex saves. If anyone can haste themselves it just frees up a spell slot. That's the inherent problem to giving martials magic like capabilities; if anyone can do what a wizard does the wizard is free to focus on whatever they want like.

It shouldn't be buffs that martials can perform, but better ways at countering magic. Like giving a class an ability called focused mind that grants scaling will saves to better shrug off magic.

A big problem with balancing is that the game is balanced around a group of adventurers completing tasks and not just anyone being able to fulfill any need to overcome any obstacle.

Barbarians can already spell sunder, but I agree there should be a means for others of deflecting some spells targeting a character through class abilities.

[Petty Alchemy]

Ross Byers wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

I feel like the ability to be so obnoxious you throw off a wizard's spellcasting would make a perfect rogue talent.

Arcane Annoyance (Ex): You know how to vary and repeat vocal components in a way that breaks the concentration of spellcasters. Any opposed spellcaster that begins casting a spell with a vocal component within 20 feet of you must succeed at a concentration check with a DC of 5 + your rogue level + your Charisma bonus + the spell level or lose the spell.

I think you should have to spend a resource for it to work, not just have it on all the time. Maybe you could spend an AoO in reaction to the spell being cast?

I set the DC lowish because it was passive. You're right that it should be an action. How about this:

Arcane Annoyance (Ex): You know how to vary and repeat vocal components in a way that breaks the concentration of spellcasters. When an opposed spellcaster begins casting a spell with a vocal component within 30 feet of you, you may try to interrupt him as an immediate action that provokes an attack of opportunity. If you do, the spellcaster must succeed at a concentration check with a DC of 10 + your rogue level + your Charisma bonus + the spell level or lose the spell.

You could tie it to a Rogue's Spellcraft roll, if we want to help the skill monkeys be cool with skills.