RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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how many mythological heroes could fly?The same number who could cast overland flight (or fireball, plane shift, summon monster IX, etc).
Why do some PCs have to be restricted to only what real-world legends did, while other PCs get to ignore those boundaries?
Wizards get to do what Mythological wizards could do. And of course, few of those heroes I listed are "real world". Beowulf solo killed a epic troll with his bare hands, then killed a great wyrm. Gilgamesh- "real world"? Cú Chulainn? Heracles?
Most powerful heroes of all myth and legend, but almost none could fly.
That's what Merlin or Morgan le Fey or Circe, Atlantes,Farmer Weathersky,Gwydion fab Dôn,Väinämöinen, etc.
A Ranger can fly- without spells, and on his own. Or get a flying companion.
What's the use of classes if everyone can do everything? That hardly stimulates teamwork.
First, when I said "real-world legends", I didn't mean legendary people who existed in the real world, I meant people whose legends are part of the real-world. Sort of like if I had mentioned "real-world literary figures", I'd have meant figures of actual books as opposed to the figures of books whose own existence is fictional.
Also, I didn't say that fighters needed to be able to fly. I said that a fighter shouldn't have to be mythic to be able to do something that's only a fraction of the power of what a non-mythic caster can do. I only mentioned flight because it's easier to compare "superhuman jumping" to "flight" than it is to compare "superhuman jumping" to, say, "understanding all languages" or "creating illusions".
It's hard to see the gap when you compare unlike things. So I compared a martial jump to magical flight not because martials should fly, but because the contrast between jumping and flying is so visible that any reasonable person can then see that two abilities of such vastly different power levels should not require the LESSER of the two to be the one who's mythic.
To put it in terms that would perhaps be harder for you to get distracted by details and see the real issue: a fighter should do different things than a wizard, but those things should be every bit as impressive and superhuman as the wizard's magic.
The wizard's ability to fly all day doesn't mean the fighter needs to fly all day; it means the fighter needs to be able to do something that's on the same tier as flying all day.
The wizard's ability to teleport to the other side of a hostile and dangerous nation instead of crossing through it doesn't mean that the fighter needs to be able to do that exact thing, but he needs to be able to do something of that caliber.
And he should be able to match the wizard's caliber without having to be more mythic than the wizard is.
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I don't get how someone that looks at the kind of monsters a mid to high level can challenge and still think they're just a regular human (because that's the only race that exists in pathfinder, right?). A high level could physically overpower a creature that's taller than a building with their bare hands, but for some reason these same people would place Aragorn as an epic level fighter and gandalf as a level 50 fighter/wizard/eldritch knight abomination.
Even lower CR creatures like dinosaurs are pushing if not beyond what a normal human being could handle.
I have my doubts that most humans could successfully slay a dimetrodon, which is only a CR 3, without quite a bit of luck or modern preparation (or a horse and lance and favorable terrain).
I listed a number of Demi-gods, I am willing to accept them.
Still your list: king Kai Kawus was tempted by evil spirits to invade heaven with the help of a flying craft. Item.
emperor Shun is reported to have escaped a burning tower and later to have flown over his dominion with the aid of two large reed hats= item.Wayland the Smith was carried into the sky by a shirt made of feathers= item.
That leaves Kibaga the warrior*,Calaïs & Zetes and a number who can shape shift (and Rangers can do that). Most heroes fly by means of magic items, not spells or innate abilities.
* good find there, never heard of him.
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Given that real life is generally regarded as E6, it looks like the highest you can have an ability score is 21. 22, if you prefer E8.I have never bought that. Real life is 20. Mythic is where we get outside real life.
Wait...seriously? That explains alot. It also completely doesnt track.
Lets look at jumping A +4 dex (peak of human physical ability, though thats a 20 now) and a 20 ranks in acrobatics, with skill focus acrobatics and the acrobatic feat (IE someone who has trained their whole life in the long jump) gives you a total of +37 to jump. That means an average of 47feet for a top of the class long jumper.
The world record long jump is 8.95 m (29 ft 41⁄4 in) and has now stood for over 22 years.
Where as a 6th level character, with 6 ranks in acrobatics, skill focus, and the acrobatic feat, has a Jump of +18. For a Maximum of 27 feet. 28 feet. Right around that world record.
It's hard to see the gap when you compare unlike things. So I compared a martial jump to magical flight not because martials should fly, but because the contrast between jumping and flying is so visible that any reasonable person can then see that two abilities of such vastly different power levels should not require the LESSER of the...
Kill a troll with his bare hands. Jump across a mighty chasm. Jump high and cleave a foe in two. Move at speeds faster than a running cheetah. Grow wings and fly (Ranger, Bbn and Paladin). Change into a bear. Breathe fire like a dragon. Summon spirits that drain your foes. Walk on the air like air walk. Walk on walls like a spider. Summon an angel to serve you. Sunder spells. Immunity from Mind effecting spells.
Need more? Have you LOOKED at what Paladins, Barbarians, Monk & Rangers can do- without spells?
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To put it in terms that would perhaps be harder for you to get distracted by details and see the real issue: a fighter should do different things than a wizard, but those things should be every bit as impressive and superhuman as the wizard's magic.
The wizard's ability to fly all day doesn't mean the fighter needs to fly all day; it means the fighter needs to be able to do something that's on the same tier as flying all day.
The wizard's ability to teleport to the other side of a hostile and dangerous nation instead of crossing through it doesn't mean that the fighter needs to be able to do that exact thing, but he needs to be able to do something of that caliber.
And he should be able to match the wizard's caliber without having to be more mythic than the wizard is.
Word yo. This is the same point that myself, Sean, Ross, and others have all been making. I don't want flying Fighters, but I want Fighters who can do something thematically appropriate that is of equivalent power, even if it's as simple as leaping jump attacks that would be impossible in the real world, batting an incoming magical missile back at the caster, cleaving a spell apart with a sword without needing to be a particular race or a barbarian, making a party more competent on the battlefield through keen tactical insight or charismatic inspiration, etc.
The Fighter, in particular, is missing pieces, because he suffers from the "Ex and feats can't be as good as magic" design bias, and nonsensical legacy issues like crap saves and bad skills. The feats he's given as class features are all so limited in scope and function that they don't even begin to compare to the class features that other classes get, and part of the start to fixing that could be knocking down the Su/Ex barrier and focus less on the rules that create arbitrary distinctions between what is and is not magical in a fantasy world, and instead zeroing in on what you'd expect an archetypical character of that type to be able to do at that level. A Fighter should be able to shrug off magical effects is probably one of the key places to start. He's the magical guy? Own that in the class. Let him be the guy who powers through magical effects by sheer determination, who's so stubborn that when people try to control his mind he instinctively rebels and pushes back hard, potentially causing their spell to unravel in a violent and painful way.
Word yo. This is the same point that myself, Sean, Ross, and others have all been making. I don't want flying Fighters, but I want Fighters who can do something thematically appropriate that is of equivalent power, even if it's as simple as leaping jump attacks that would be impossible in the real world, batting an incoming magical missile back at the caster, cleaving a spell apart with a sword without needing to be a particular race or a barbarian, making a party more competent on the battlefield through keen tactical insight or charismatic inspiration, etc.
One of the things that makes high level mundane abilities lack is the fact that success and failure in pathfinder/dnd is binary. You succeed or you dont. Thats it. One of the bigest things that come out of the mundane abilities is big numbers. But it doesnt matter if the fighter beats an AC by 1 or by 21. The effect is the same. I have been toying with an idea of giving additional benefits when you succeed by alot in skills and attacks for mundane characters. The most obvious being initially that it simply takes less time to do. But I think i want to add specific effects as well.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Kill a troll with his bare hands.
Can't do it in Pathfinder.
Jump across a mighty chasm.
Not the same caliber as flight (especially considering that a high-level commoner can do it too).
Jump high and cleave a foe in two.
The level of jumping possible in Pathfinder is nowhere near the caliber of flight, and you can't one-shot a creature past like 3rd level. Unless you're a caster.
Move at speeds faster than a running cheetah.
Can't do it in Pathfinder (unless you're a caster).
Grow wings and fly (Ranger, Bbn and Paladin).
CERTIFIED COOL THING!!! :D
Change into a bear.
Casters do this, not martials.
Breathe fire like a dragon.
Casters again.
Summon spirits that drain your foes.
Casters.
Walk on the air like air walk.
Casters.
Walk on walls like a spider.
Still casters.
Summon an angel to serve you.
Your claim that martials can do things as cool as casters is not helped by listing impressive things that only casters get to do.
Sunder spells.
CERTIFIED COOL THING!!! :D
Immunity from Mind effecting spells.
Kinda cool thing.
Need more?
Yes. Most of what you listed you either can't actually do in Pathfinder, or is something only casters can do. List me some more things that martials can do that's as cool as what you listed for the casters.
Have you LOOKED at what Paladins, Barbarians, Monk & Rangers can do- without spells?
What about the fighter or rogue?
The world record long jump is 8.95 m (29 ft 41⁄4 in) and has now stood for over 22 years.Where as a 6th level character, with 6 ranks in acrobatics, skill focus, and the acrobatic feat, has a Jump of +18. For a Maximum of 27 feet. 28 feet. Right around that world record.
Those feats don't stack, and you're assuming a rolled 20, but Olympic jumpers can jump just about the same distance every time, maybe a few inches difference. This is just a oddness of the rules, you have to assume a 10.
In order to get 29 feet it takes a Dex of 18 (+4), Skill Focus (+3) Class Skill (+3) , a rolled 10 and nine ranks or 9th level. To do a High Jump of 8 feet requires a Acrobatics roll of 32. That's 10th level (Skill focus is now +6) .
Do note that a 20th level PC is only capable of a 43 high jump, which is only 10'.
So, right now, today the best athlete can only show around 10th level- but that's in skills. How about combat?
Takes a str of 24 to lift Olympic weights, outside normal human, right? or 16th level.
That's just issues of the rules mechanics trying to duplicate real world issues. Not limits on what IRL people can do.
Ya, in Pathfinder anyways I think Paladins, Barbarians and Rangers are much closer to balanced. Archetype Monks as well, but definitely not core monks who still suffer from most of the same issues they did in 3.5.
The two big sticking points in a the Core book (aside from non-archetyped monks) are the Fighter and the Rogue. Who really have no role and both lost out as a result of the change from 3.5 to PF. Rogue's large list of class skills means a lot less and its trapfinding has been handed away to a number of classes, leaving it with an unreliable damage boosting mechanic and a list of mostly (key word, exceptions do exist) poor options that despite being mundane are 1/day. The Fighter likewise loses out since everyone gets more feats in Pathfinder and their feats have become less valuable as a number of combat feats got broken up into feat chains. And their new class features can mostly summed down to a "add a few numbers on top".
Edit @ DrDeth: Uh... Acrobatic and Skill Focus (Acrobatics) totally stack. Both are untyped bonuses and they are different sources. Where on earth did you get the impression they didn't?
Those feats don't stack
Why not? They provide untyped bonuses.
Move at speeds faster than a running cheetah.Can't do it in Pathfinder (unless you're a caster).
Change into a bear.Casters do this, not martials.
Breathe fire like a dragon.Casters again.
Summon spirits that drain your foes.Casters.
Walk on the air like air walk.Casters.
Walk on walls like a spider.Still casters.
Summon an angel to serve you.Your claim that martials can do things as cool as casters is not helped by listing impressive things that only casters get to do.
Need more?Yes. Most of what you listed you either can't actually do in Pathfinder, or is something only casters can do. List me some more things that martials can do that's as cool as what you listed for the casters.
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Level 18 monk, speed of 60 without any other things like feats. Barbarians can do it easy. Even with just Core, I can get 55, 5 faster than a Cheetah. I think I can get to 85 or 90.
Bears- Ranger can do this without a spell. Form of the Bear. I think there's a Bbn also.
Barbarian, rangers and and Monks can breathe fire- without a spell. Energy Eruption, Form of the Dragon, qinggong monk, others.
Spirits? Barbarian- Spirit Totem, Greater.
Air walk? Monks
Spider walk? Monks, rangers.
And so forth.
All without a spell.
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Those feats don't stack, and you're assuming a rolled 20, but Olympic jumpers can jump just about the same distance every time, maybe a few inches difference. This is just a oddness of the rules, you have to assume a 10.
Both feats give an untyped bonus. They stack. In addition, olympic jumpers DONT jump the same distance every time, because if they did, there wouldnt be records. The world record represents the best jumper on earth who ever competed rolling a 20 (jumping as far as they possibly could). If he could do that by taking 10, the record holder would be able to jump that far regularly, which is almost never the case.
In order to get 29 feet it takes a Dex of 18 (+4), Skill Focus (+3) Class Skill (+3) , a rolled 10 and nine ranks or 9th level. To do a High Jump of 8 feet requires a Acrobatics roll of 32. That's 10th level (Skill focus is now +6) .
Incorrect. Since skill focus and acrobatics both stack.
+5 dex (maximum natural dex for a human), +3 skill focus, +2 acrobatic, +6 ranks, +3 class skill, for a bonus of a bonus of 19. On his best day (rolled a 20) that guy jumps 29 feet. Right on target for the world record.Do note that a 20th level PC is only capable of a 43 high jump, which is only 10'.
So, right now, today the best athlete can only show around 10th level- but that's in skills. How about combat?
Takes a str of 24 to lift Olympic weights, outside normal human, right? or 16th level.
Um what? No, olympic trainers weight lifting ability isnt dependent on carrying capacity. Those numbers are the ability of someone to walk around with that stuff. Weight lifting is an ability check (strength check), with dcs based on technique (how good you are a lifting), which is honestly a skill, proffession weightlifter.
That's just issues of the rules mechanics trying to duplicate real world issues. Not limits on what IRL people can do.
No, its really not. You have to go back a few editions (3rd) to really get back the connection between the numbers and reality (they have been eroded a bit for simplicity and easy of play's sake) but the basis is still there.
The numbers say that the peak of real world human ability is somewhere around 5th or 6th level. If the best humanity has to offer in the real world was 20th level characters, it would be a very different world.
For instance, we would assume the worlds best trained and toughest soldier would have an above average constitution. Maybe a 14? Probably special forces have the toughness feat too right? At 20th level, if you took that at average, thats that means special forces (20th level martial characters) should have around 150ish hit points. Meaning our green berets should be able to regularly survive falls from aircraft (terminal velocity puts max damage at 20d6 averaging around 70 damage) without parachutes, and be shot dozens of times by revolvers without seriously hampering their ability to fight.
Where as if MOST people are 2nd or 3rd level and the peak of physical ability is 5th or 6th level, then the fact that a single gunshot drops most people, and the fact that a few special individuals have managed to fight on after being shot once or twice makes sense.
Takes a str of 24 to lift Olympic weights, outside normal human, right? or 16th level.
Um what? No, olympic trainers weight lifting ability isnt dependent on carrying capacity. Those numbers are the ability of someone to walk around with that stuff. Weight lifting is an ability check (strength check), with dcs based on technique (how good you are a lifting), which is honestly a skill, proffession weightlifter.
That's just issues of the rules mechanics trying to duplicate real world issues. Not limits on what IRL people can do.
You got me on the feat, but as far as weightlifting: "Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. " That's 16th level. 18+2, +1 for four levels.
and again, the issues with acrobatics are just the odd way the rules try to deal with real world skills, making them into something that can be played easily.
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The world record long jump is 8.95 m (29 ft 41⁄4 in) and has now stood for over 22 years.Where as a 6th level character, with 6 ranks in acrobatics, skill focus, and the acrobatic feat, has a Jump of +18. For a Maximum of 27 feet. 28 feet. Right around that world record.
Those feats don't stack, and you're assuming a rolled 20, but Olympic jumpers can jump just about the same distance every time, maybe a few inches difference. This is just a oddness of the rules, you have to assume a 10.
In order to get 29 feet it takes a Dex of 18 (+4), Skill Focus (+3) Class Skill (+3) , a rolled 10 and nine ranks or 9th level. To do a High Jump of 8 feet requires a Acrobatics roll of 32. That's 10th level (Skill focus is now +6) .
Do note that a 20th level PC is only capable of a 43 high jump, which is only 10'.
So, right now, today the best athlete can only show around 10th level- but that's in skills. How about combat?
Takes a str of 24 to lift Olympic weights, outside normal human, right? or 16th level.
That's just issues of the rules mechanics trying to duplicate real world issues. Not limits on what IRL people can do.
It's a 23 strength to match the world clean and jerk and dead lift records, which is something a 4th level orc can do. Amusingly, the world record for the sled drag and pull is 300 pounds, which is something that any first level commoner with a 6 strength can do. All this teaches us is that the weight capacity rules in PF are not a good abstraction.
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All this teaches us is that the weight capacity rules in PF are not a good abstraction.
That's just issues of the rules mechanics trying to duplicate real world issues. Not limits on what IRL people can do.
All this teaches us that weigh capacity AND skill rules in PF are not good abstractions.
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You got me on the feat, but as far as weightlifting: "Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. " That's 16th level. 18+2, +1 for four levels.and again, the issues with acrobatics are just the odd way the rules try to deal with real world skills, making them into something that can be played easily.
Again no. Lift/drag represents what you can do with brute strength. Some random strong guy. Olympic weight lifters arent random strong guys. They PRACTICE lifting. There is technique to it. Its not based on brute strength. Obviously you have to have the basic strength to accomplish it, but without the techniques they use they wouldnt be able to lift all that.
The lift/drag rules are based on your abililty to just move around with the stuff, without any specific technique, and over relatively long durations. An olympic weightlifter uses specific techniques to lift a weight for a few seconds. For instance
The lift requires not only great strength, but mastery of technical skills, a high degree of shoulder/back/leg flexibility, excellent balance, and speed. However, power and strength do play an important role in differentiating athletes in competition, particularly at advanced levels, where the majority of competitors have mastered the technical aspects of the lift.
So weightlifting at the olympic level is a skill we dont have a skill in the game for. Because honestly what exactly would the game use be for a trained only skill of lifting something briefly above your head.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Level 18 monk, speed of 60 without any other things like feats. Barbarians can do it easy. Even with just Core, I can get 55, 5 faster than a Cheetah. I think I can get to 85 or 90.
Okay, granted.
Bears- Ranger can do this without a spell. Form of the Bear. I think there's a Bbn also.
No, the ranger does not turn into a bear like you say. His facial features are slightly modified and he gains +4 STR.
Unless you mean the version he gets at 20th level where he gets to emulate what the wizard could do at 11th level.
That's borderline dishonest.
Barbarian, rangers and and Monks can breathe fire- without a spell. Energy Eruption, Form of the Dragon, qinggong monk, others.
Energy Eruption—Can't get it until 16th level, the wizard can do it at 5th level. You call that the same caliber?
Form of the Dragon—Again, comparing a 20th-level martial ability with a spell available at 11th level.Qinggong monk—Okay, I'll give you that one.
Spirits? Barbarian- Spirit Totem, Greater.
You said "summon spirits that drain your foes". Instead, you give me spirits that deal a couple dice of damage/round at 10th level—when the wizard can actually summon actual spirits/demons/elementals/whatever that actually do things.
Once again, your example is outpaced by basic spellcasting.Air walk? Monks
I'm not aware of that option.
Spider walk? Monks, rangers.
Or that one.
All without a spell.
But always outdone by a spell (and at lower levels, to boot).
Yeah, you showed me.
A 23 Strength is doable in our worlds if you assume a 'rage' mechanic working for a power lifter.
Also kindly note that Ant Haul does not give you an increased strength score. It allows you to replicate the carrying capacity of someone stronger.
Thor HAS a 67 str...and the +28 TH/Dmg and Str checks that goes with it. Just because you've got a spell on you that lets you carry as much doesn't mean you have the rest of it.
If we assume Thor's Girdle is +6 Str bonus, and he has Reckless Attack and high end +8 Rage, x10 effective Str at +16 over base is actually right on track.
Those long jump numbers are way off. You have to assume a long jumper can 'take 20' with a form of skill mastery, not 'take 10'. Take 10 assumes an average effort. World records are at the far end of human possibility. You also have to restrict level to 2-3. Oh, and don't forget the +4 from a movement bonus...long jumpers are always sprinters.
Captain America permanently emulates a high level fighter. 20th? Maybe not. The main difference is that Cap doesn't run around with a billion dollars of gear on himself (unless you count the shield as worth all that).
Give Cap Thor's Hammer, or Iron Man's suit of armor, and I can guarantee you that Apocalypse is going to have a very bad day. The idea that Cap is 'only' level 8 goes out the window as soon as you give him gear appropriate to his level. Strip a level 20 of everything but a magic shield and Cap will clean his clock. As we know, gear is important!
Also, remember Cheetahs sprint at 10x base move, not 4x!
==Aelryinth
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Perhaps it's the strength rules that are a problem if it takes a level 16 PF person to do what a real human can do.
See by level 16, you can jump out of a plane without gear once per month to no serious effect to yourself. I don't think any actual human has or ever could pull off a similar stunt.
Perhaps it's the strength rules that are a problem if it takes a level 16 PF person to do what a real human can do.
See by level 16, you can jump out of a plane without gear once per month to no serious effect to yourself. I don't think any actual human has or ever could pull off a similar stunt.
It's happened, but it's rare.
Sergeant Nicholas Alkemade fell 18000 feet but his fall was likely cushioned by cojones the size of basketballs. ;-) There are several others.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Perhaps it's the strength rules that are a problem if it takes a level 16 PF person to do what a real human can do.
See by level 16, you can jump out of a plane without gear once per month to no serious effect to yourself. I don't think any actual human has or ever could pull off a similar stunt.
It's happened, but it's rare.
Sergeant Nicholas Alkemade fell 18000 feet but his fall was likely cushioned by cojones the size of basketballs. ;-) There are several others.
True, but if 20th level was the peak of real life, that means that normally highly trained soldiers were like what? 15th? 15th level? 18th level martial characters could REGULARLY and with very little risk jump out of a plane onto concrete and be fine. Sergeant Nicholas Alkemade had his GM roll all 1s on 20 d6s. A 3rd level character can survive 20 damage. It would be extraordinarily rare, but its possible. Where as if the average highly skilled/trained/experienced person was 12-15th level, such falls would be about as risky as bull fighting is today. You'd have a no-parachute sky diving xgame or something.
According to DD's logic of "real life is 20th level" (or something close to that), lots of your everyday average joes could easily survive being mauled by a whole pride of lions or being devoured by a freaking T-Rex!
His claims on the subject are completely incompatible with PF rules.
Ya the "Real life is 1-6" really does work as a good general tool. Like Kolokotroni points out, sometimes your fall damage is only 20. And that means a level 2 Warrior with a decent con will on occasion make it. And if Sergeant Nicholas Alkemade was a 3rd Level Warrior (or another d10 HD class which seems about right), he has an even better chance as long as the dice fall on the low side instead of the average of 60 (or 70 if you use 3.5 as your average). He also probably took Toughness, and HP as his favored class bonus.
Sergeant Nicholas could have been a level 1 warrior with 11 con and a lucky stabilize roll.
I estimate the chance of that to be 8.2690858e-10 or 8.2690858e-8%. Such an occurrence would be on par with a miracle.
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According to DD's logic of "real life is 20th level" (or something close to that), lots of your everyday average joes could easily survive being mauled by a whole pride of lions or being devoured by a freaking T-Rex!
His claims on the subject are completely incompatible with PF rules.
Survive? Hell, they could punch the lions or the T-Rex to death.
For comparison let's say Cap is level 8 ...... His to hit bonus is at +21, twice as high as the world's best archer.
Barring a natural 1 he will hit the archer's bullseye target at 230 feet distance dead center every damn time. ... And the best part? With Shot on the Run, he can, quite literally, run rings around an olympic champion and still out-throw him on every shot. With a shield.
The point that I'm trying to make is that Captain America is not trying to hit static Fine targets with an AC of 13. I genuinely don't feel that this example captures his demonstrated performance in combat.
In all honesty, I think the methodology being applied against your Captain Americas, etc., is somewhat skewed. It's contingent on the inconsistencies of the Pathfinder system and - meaning no offense - seems to ignore how characters like him are classified within their "world".
Meaning, Captain America is considered to be among the foremost melee and missile combatants and tacticians of his world. Saying his BaB could be as low as +8 on the basis of the AC of a static Fine target or an average NPC minion ignores the precedent set by Pathfinder for Golarion: are the foremost melee and missile combatants of Golarion level 8? Of course not. The most powerful heroes are far higher in level and possess equipment every bit as impressive as a +5 returning distance weapon.
By what grounds, then, do we accept Pathfinder's heroes being pegged at much higher level than that being proposed for Captain America? Are the challenges posed by the criminals, monsters, mutants, magicians, robots, aliens, demons, etc., of the Marvel Universe really that lesser when compared to those of Golarion? I don't think that's the case.
Now, if your proposal is that Golarion's heroes should ALSO be pegged down to level 6-8 (as per the E6 concept), then you'll hear no disagreement from me. :)
For comparison let's say Cap is level 8 ...... His to hit bonus is at +21, twice as high as the world's best archer.
Barring a natural 1 he will hit the archer's bullseye target at 230 feet distance dead center every damn time. ... And the best part? With Shot on the Run, he can, quite literally, run rings around an olympic champion and still out-throw him on every shot. With a shield.The point that I'm trying to make is that Captain America is not trying to hit static Fine targets with an AC of 13. I genuinely don't feel that this example captures his demonstrated performance in combat.
In all honesty, I think the methodology being applied against your Captain Americas, etc., is somewhat skewed. It's contingent on the inconsistencies of the Pathfinder system and - meaning no offense - seems to ignore how characters like him are classified within their "world".
Meaning, Captain America is considered to be among the foremost melee and missile combatants and tacticians of his world. Saying his BaB could be as low as +8 on the basis of the AC of a static Fine target or an average NPC minion ignores the precedent set by Pathfinder for Golarion: are the foremost melee and missile combatants of Golarion level 8? Of course not. The most powerful heroes are far higher in level and possess equipment every bit as impressive as a +5 returning distance weapon.
By what grounds, then, do we accept Pathfinder's heroes being pegged at much higher level than that being proposed for Captain America? Are the challenges posed by the criminals, monsters, mutants, magicians, robots, aliens, demons, etc., of the Marvel Universe really that lesser when compared to those of Golarion? I don't think that's the case.
Now, if your proposal is that Golarion's heroes should ALSO be pegged down to level 6-8 (as per the E6 concept), then you'll hear no disagreement from me. :)
Uh the proposed Captian Andoran was in fact 8th level. So... yes? As you can see here and I think that build replicates Captain America pretty well. I'd make the Shield much better though, Captain America's is way over WBL and give him a template that pumps up his stats. I mean in Golarion high level casters build their towers on the sun. Mr. 8th Level Captain Andoran with his perfect Stat array is probably more then enough to take on most threats. Sure he isn't going to be going toe to toe with Balors, but that isn't a day to day occurrence in Andoran (at least not that I know).
Now the people who end up fighting demon lords and what not... they are the high level heroes. So once Lini and co. are fighting demon lords, then no they aren't 6-8 anymore.
Anzyr, I don't mean to be rude, but you're really missing my point. This pretty much sums it up:
Now the people who end up fighting demon lords and what not... they are the high level heroes. So once Lini and co. are fighting demon lords, then no they aren't 6-8 anymore.
You're applying two different standards, and making the assumption that Marvel's superheroes don't face enemies comensurate with those that might be found within Golarion's universe. That's an incorrect assumption.
More importantly, and where the larger debate is concerned, several posters have shown that the Pathfinder game system is not at all an accurate reflection of real life: not in terms of survivability, not in terms of what we can carry/lift/drag (normally or in combat), and not in terms of what amount of effort/experience/time invested is required to reach certain pinnacles of human performance.
To sum up, neither the performance standards assigned by a flawed model nor an arbitrarily lower value assigned to the antagonists of the Marvel Universe constitute a valid reason for that setting's preeminent melee and missile combatant to be assigned a level commensurate with that of hundreds of relatively unimportant NPCs found throughout the Pathfinder products.
Sorry for the curtness of my response - I am rushed!
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With all due respect to Sean's stated goal here, I suspect that his proposal would only make things worse with respect to giving martials "nice things." Maybe I'm being too cynical, but here's my logic:
If we're dealing with designers who state that "Martial-caster disparity is a myth propagated by people with agendas." Sedentary designers who wrap a mouse cord around their arm, drop the mouse, try to catch it on the bounce, and declare, "The use of weapon cords by highly-skilled martials is totally unrealistic." Designers who, in describing their home games, describe casters very pointedly NOT using 90% of the narrative power the rules grant them. These people are NOT going to start giving fighters meaningful class features based on the lack of a descriptor tag.
That leaves us with 3rd party designers and players. As it stands, people like me will say, "You know, if a fighter had enough tactical awareness and experience, he should be able to deduce which mirror image is the real caster, and which enemies are illusory, and where an invisible opponent is actually located and how to be sure to hit said opponent. Let's make it a fighter-only feat, Tactical Acumen, and give it an {Ex} tag." People might or might not accept it, but there's a certain kind of logic to it. Get rid of the tag, and people look at it and say, "That's true seeing. It's magic. Fighters shouldn't be able to do that." And there goes a perfectly useful ability.
Anzyr, I don't mean to be rude, but you're really missing my point. This pretty much sums it up:
Now the people who end up fighting demon lords and what not... they are the high level heroes. So once Lini and co. are fighting demon lords, then no they aren't 6-8 anymore.You're applying two different standards, and making the assumption that Marvel's superheroes don't face enemies comensurate with those that might be found within Golarion's universe. That's an incorrect assumption.
More importantly, and where the larger debate is concerned, several posters have shown that the Pathfinder game system is not at all an accurate reflection of real life: not in terms of survivability, not in terms of what we can carry/lift/drag (normally or in combat), and not in terms of what amount of effort/experience/time invested is required to reach certain pinnacles of human performance.
To sum up, neither the performance standards assigned by a flawed model nor an arbitrarily lower value assigned to the antagonists of the Marvel Universe constitute a valid reason for that setting's preeminent melee and missile combatant to be assigned a level commensurate with that of hundreds of relatively unimportant NPCs found throughout the Pathfinder products.
Sorry for the curtness of my response - I am rushed!
I think I watched movie with a "god" (Who is probably no more then level 15) as the villain and in that movie Captain America fought the villain's mooks. He isn't going to be punching out the Hulk any time soon. Why? Because he's 8th level. The reason he's the "leader" of the group is because he has the best WIS and CHA out of the group (thank you Serum) and his Intelligence is good (though not as good as say Tony Starks) as well. And lets be honest... Tony Stark and Thor dumped WIS. Hard.
Anzyr,
I wanted to add something that I failed to mention earlier. I said that you're missing my point. I also mentioned I was rushed. This is me saying that, precisely because I was rushed, I may be missing your point as well! If that is the case, please read an "I'm sorry!" right next to where I said I didn't mean to be rude. :)
Beyond that, I assure you that the movies do not define the canon of Captain America. As I offered earlier, I don't think "Pathfinder" the comic book offers a complete understanding of what characters set in the game can do, either.
Anzyr,
I wanted to add something that I failed to mention earlier. I said that you're missing my point. I also mentioned I was rushed. This is me saying that, precisely because I was rushed, I may be missing your point as well! If that is the case, please read an "I'm sorry!" right next to where I said I didn't mean to be rude. :)
Beyond that, I assure you that the movies do not define the canon of Captain America. As I offered earlier, I don't think "Pathfinder" the comic book offers a complete understanding of what characters set in the game can do, either.
It's fine Phoebus Alexandros all of my posts should be read in a monotone for the most part. I agree that Marvel comics don't integrate well into the PF leveling system, but that's because PF characters are expected to grow and become more powerful, while a comic book hero like Captain America doesn't, unless of course it become relevant to the plot.
The larger point of my post was that as a martial Captain America is better then anyone we've every met in real life. He can out fight our best martial artists. However, he doesn't hold a candle to someone like Ruby from RWBY. Neither of those characters relies on magic (though both rely on particular weapon), but on combat prowess. But Captain America simply isn't able to do the kinds of things Ruby is capable of.
And in the same vein, Ruby isn't capable of the kind of things Cu Cuchulain is capable of. I attribute this to the differences in their levels. Which creates a continuum as follows:
Cu Cuchulain is higher leveled then;
Ruby who is higher leveled then;
Captain America who is higher leveled then;
World's Best Possible Martial Artist.
The levels don't have 17-19, 10-12, 8 and 6 like I personally subscribe to. But the levels should fall into a similar continuum.
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Design Manager
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***Sedentary designers who wrap a mouse cord around their arm, drop the mouse, try to catch it on the bounce, and declare, "The use of weapon cords by highly-skilled martials is totally unrealistic." ***
To be fair on this one, the weapon cord is a cheap item available for next to nothing, and anyone can use it. You don't just balance an item to the higher end of the game and a specific class, it has to be balanced at the low end for everyone as well. Considering they left the core mechanic related to the weapon cord problem intact, but it requires a magic item to get the full on weapon juggling thing going, I'm actually pretty okay with this.
That leaves us with 3rd party designers and players. As it stands, people like me will say, "You know, if a fighter had enough tactical awareness and experience, he should be able to deduce which mirror image is the real caster, and which enemies are illusory, and where an invisible opponent is actually located and how to be sure to hit said opponent. Let's make it a fighter-only feat, Tactical Acumen, and give it an {Ex} tag." People might or might not accept it, but there's a certain kind of logic to it. Get rid of the tag, and people look at it and say, "That's true seeing. It's magic. Fighters shouldn't be able to do that." And there goes a perfectly useful ability.
Completely agree, which is why I think the only way to address the issue is to change the perception of 'what kind of things should characters be able to do'.
For once I think its going to have to go the other way some. A good deal of the narrative power needs to come out of magic, but without stripping out the fun and feeling of awesome that casters have. Thats pretty much a ground up rebuild of the magic system I think.
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I think it would be helpful if the game actually told you, "the best-trained human person on Earth would be level X, and anything beyond that is superhuman beyond what any real person in Earth's history has attained."
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Design Manager
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I think it would be helpful if the game actually told you, "the best-trained human person on Earth would be level X, and anything beyond that is superhuman beyond what any real person in Earth's history has attained."
Word. As a former member of the PF design team would you happen to have any opinion/insight on what level in game is/should be equivalent to a real world person's potential?
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I think it would be helpful if the game actually told you, "the best-trained human person on Earth would be level X, and anything beyond that is superhuman beyond what any real person in Earth's history has attained."Word. As a former member of the PF design team would you happen to have any opinion/insight on what level in game is/should be equivalent to a real world person's potential?
My guess is that its somewhere around 5-8th level, but I would really like to know Sean's opinion on this as well.
With all due respect to Sean's stated goal here, I suspect that his proposal would only make things worse with respect to giving martials "nice things." Maybe I'm being too cynical, but here's my logic:
If we're dealing with designers who state that "Martial-caster disparity is a myth propagated by people with agendas." Sedentary designers who wrap a mouse cord around their arm, drop the mouse, try to catch it on the bounce, and declare, "The use of weapon cords by highly-skilled martials is totally unrealistic." Designers who, in describing their home games, describe casters very pointedly NOT using 90% of the narrative power the rules grant them. These people are NOT going to start giving fighters meaningful class features based on the lack of a descriptor tag.
That leaves us with 3rd party designers and players. As it stands, people like me will say, "You know, if a fighter had enough tactical awareness and experience, he should be able to deduce which mirror image is the real caster, and which enemies are illusory, and where an invisible opponent is actually located and how to be sure to hit said opponent. Let's make it a fighter-only feat, Tactical Acumen, and give it an {Ex} tag." People might or might not accept it, but there's a certain kind of logic to it. Get rid of the tag, and people look at it and say, "That's true seeing. It's magic. Fighters shouldn't be able to do that." And there goes a perfectly useful ability.
You make some good points Kirth. I do think that removing those tags will cause more harm than good, no matter the good intentions behind them. As people have said in the past, pathfinder is basically a different game if you have casters that understand how to take a hold of the power granted by their class. Its probably very difficult to balance for the fact that these classes basically depend entirely on player skill to reach their absurd potential.
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I've recently done something of a U-turn from my older "Some martials need to stay mundane" standpoint on this.
Originally, I felt that Fighters especially should stick to pure training and skill and leave the weirder stuff to classes that were based around having access that kind of power. I also felt that anything vaguely beyond highly-trained capabilities should be kept in the Mythic rules to keep it nicely segregated (if you want it in the game, it's available, and if not it's easily removed)
Since then I've come to the conclusion that the {Su} tag does pretty much exactly what I need, while allowing those abilities to exist within the core game. Just because there's a {Su} ability listed in the rulebook as usable by Fighters it doesn't have to follow that every single Fighter in the world has the potential to use it, it only needs to make it accessible for someone whose personal fighter concept has a justification for it. It doesn't suddenly mean the whole world is going to start levitating tomorrow, it only has to mean that (for whatever reason you want to justify it in your game world) certain individuals have found a way to tap into some kind of power source the majority of the population don't have access to, either because they lack the training, the potential, or whatever other means you've decided grants access to it. It equally leaves the door open for people that want a 100% fantastic world to create those worlds.
So, by all means, bring on a plethora of powerful {Su} abilities for each and every character class, along with {Ex} ones that can achieve powerful effects through skill and training alone (all it needs is a decent justification such as Kerth's "Tactical Acumen" example above). Providing them doesn't hurt anyone, if there's a group that doesn't like them they're free to ban them at their table with the justification "People in this world just can't do that.", but that in itself doesn't mean they can't be written for all the people that do want to make use of them.
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While I know it's the unpopular opinion, and according to this thread, I'm apparently everything wrong with Pathfinder...
I don't really like my fighters with Supernatural abilities. I do like cool, Charles Atlas-styled Extraordinary abilities and love seeing cool maneuvers for martials. Something like Kirth's Tactical Acumen would be cool (except maybe less totally shutting down illuisions, but perhaps depending on a Perception roll to bypass it), flavorful, and not really all that magic. But, I think when we start getting into the realm of demigod-like powers of myth (or to keep it modern, fighting in some anime), I tend to shy away from that. Demolishing mountains, slicing the air to attack people from afar... it doesn't really do it for me. Unless it's Mythic. The genre of Mythic allows me to accept Supernatural and spell-like abilities since it reminds me of Exalted or Nobilus. Mini-gods and legends doing god-like things. I guess that has always been my preference. It doesn't mean that I hate martials or don't want them to have nice things.
***Sedentary designers who wrap a mouse cord around their arm, drop the mouse, try to catch it on the bounce, and declare, "The use of weapon cords by highly-skilled martials is totally unrealistic." ***To be fair on this one, the weapon cord is a cheap item available for next to nothing, and anyone can use it. You don't just balance an item to the higher end of the game and a specific class, it has to be balanced at the low end for everyone as well. Considering they left the core mechanic related to the weapon cord problem intact, but it requires a magic item to get the full on weapon juggling thing going, I'm actually pretty okay with this.
Also, I'm pretty sure he was joking when he said that. But apparently angry geeks can't take jokes :p
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I... really don't want to see most of the narrative power leave magic to be honest.
There are some things I'd like to see toned down here or there I suppose (and I agree that Magic should replace skills [as opposed to compliment them] as close to never as possible) but in general I'm fairly ok with the level of narrative power casters have. In fact, one additional point of narrative power I'd add to them is dramatically ramping up the environmental devastation available to Evocation (Meteor Storm ought to be a Town Buster at least, possibly a City Buster)
That being said, non-casters need FAR more narrative power than they currently have, and it should come in the form of being able to DO awesome s!$+, and not having many if any limitations on said awesome s*%#. Let people restore huge chunks of HP and raise the recent dead with the heal skill, use a cross-section of BAB and skill ranks to determine how fast/far one can move (in all movement modes, including Jump and digging), use a cross-section of BAB and Strength to enable high level martials immense feats of physical strength like instantly redirecting rivers or slashing holes in geography.
By level 20 characters have outgrown the material plane and have the potential to thrash it. See Superman, he has to actively hold back lest he shred the place while fighting in it. This is why many of the high level adventures are either politically oriented or set in supernatural planes.
I think the best way to reign in casters is to take the route of the 3.5 Base Classes like the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer (Not the War Mage though... ugh...) and make it so spell casters aren't combination Abjurers/Conjurers/Diviners/Enchanters/Evokers/Necromancers/Illusionists/Tr ansmuters. Wizard in particular is guilty of this.
I think it would be helpful if the game actually told you, "the best-trained human person on Earth would be level X, and anything beyond that is superhuman beyond what any real person in Earth's history has attained."
That would be very helpful indeed. Currently there's a fairly wide gap in expectations between different parts of the player base, from those that say normal humans can't be beyond level 4-8 to those like me who tend to look at L20 as nothing more special than the pinnacle of experience and training.
Knowing what expectations the game itself is canonically designed around would at least allow me to adjust my own viewpoint based upon that. I wouldn't care about "being wrong" in the least, as long as I knew what the actual system expectations were.
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While I know it's the unpopular opinion, and according to this thread, I'm apparently everything wrong with Pathfinder...
I don't really like my fighters with Supernatural abilities. I do like cool, Charles Atlas-styled Extraordinary abilities and love seeing cool maneuvers for martials. Something like Kirth's Tactical Acumen would be cool (except maybe less totally shutting down illuisions, but perhaps depending on a Perception roll to bypass it), flavorful, and not really all that magic. But, I think when we start getting into the realm of demigod-like powers of myth (or to keep it modern, fighting in some anime), I tend to shy away from that. Demolishing mountains, slicing the air to attack people from afar... it doesn't really do it for me. Unless it's Mythic. The genre of Mythic allows me to accept Supernatural and spell-like abilities since it reminds me of Exalted or Nobilus. Mini-gods and legends doing god-like things. I guess that has always been my preference. It doesn't mean that I hate martials or don't want them to have nice things.
I tend towards the same viewpoint, but it's also important that the game cater to other viewpoints. There's no reason why it can't do both, by providing alternatives and delineating them somehow (which is easily done via both the {Su} tag and Mythic rules), and similarly there's no reason why (if you decide you want to allow it) the PC Fighter can't have a storyline justification for being different to every NPC fighter in the world in the same way a Mythic character can. A {Su} justification can be done very similarly to gaining Mythic power.
The more I think about it, the more willing I am for a PC to have those {Su} abilities by simply saying "sure, and as far as the game universe is concerned you're now something special due to tapping into the well of eternal xyzzyness in your backstory, and not just an ordinary everyday Fighter, not that the universe itself cares a whit for abstract rulebook concepts such as character classes in the first place."