Captain America isn't nearly as strong as Hulk. What do you think of my earlier mention of Thor as a 20th level fighter?
I'm not really feeling it. The issue that always comes up with someone like Thor and Hercules is they're not normal people - and never were. Someone could have all the combat skill of Thor, potentially, and still never come close to his abilities because he's a Norse god. Same with Hercules - in fact, most other Greek heroes come nowhere near his feats despite others having divine blood - simply because Hercules must have been the GM's favorite or something...
And I'm pretty much convinced that any game in which people want to play Hercules and his great labors really isn't the same game as one in which the players want to play Aragorn or Legolas or even Gandalf or most other Greek heroes like Bellerophon and Odysseus. They're pretty far apart and I think, unless it wants to go the generic route like Mutants and Masterminds, PF is probably better off picking a particular hill to stand on and devoting its resources there and leaving the rest to some other game.
Most of Thor's power comes from his hammer, don't they? I mean, he can't fly, shoot lightning, open portals, etc. with a regular mallet he picks up off the side of the road. He doesn't even know how to make a weapon return to him when it's thrown if it's not daddy's present to his bestest son ever. Thor is the situation as it stands now: over-reliance on magic items to make a difference in end-game. Sure, he's very strong and extremely tough, but that's not all we're shooting for.
He's a weapon master. A fighter is going to do worse with a non-magical axe than his magic longsword, especially if he's sunk all his weapon training into longswords.
My suggestion, here, though, if that while Thor gets a lot of power from his hammer, he's the only one who can use it! (Only Beta Ray Bill can even pick it up!)
Warpriests, Magi, Paladins, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few, all have class powers that let them add magic abilities to weapons. It might make sense that a fighter can do the same with a weapon that is already magic.
I agree with you here. Teamwork is awesome. The problem that tends to arise here is when that contribution is uneven. The sorcerer providing the flight and the fighter providing the pain is a good, symbiotic relationship.and I don't think anyone wants everyone to do anything, but giving the fighter...A buffing/controlling caster is a good example of a way to compliment the fighter though. What really feels bad (imo) is when you bump into a summoner or barbarian or battle cleric who's almost as good as you at fighting in addition to having so much extra lumped on top of it.
Right. But that's one issue here with theory crafting, like that of the three-body problem. We all know D&D is a team game, with usually four players, often each taking a niche. (not always, but often). But it's hard to theory craft this. Sure, one can show such7 such build does so many DPR, but when our fighter gets buffing from both my sorc and the bard- KATY BAR THE DOOR!!!! Holy unstoppable machine of death, batman! The synergy is incredible.
And yes, once the spellcasters get 9th level spells, with so many 3.5 spells super buffing the spell casters melee abilities, I found martials were useless. In fact spells that boost a FULL arcane casters' melee abilities should be deleted. Leave a few for the Magus, delete the rest.
Except that the party woud be better served if the Sorcerer and Bard didn't need to waste their turns/resources on a martial who cannot even do his job without their aid...
The issue that always comes up with someone like Thor and Hercules is they're not normal people - and never were.
The Hulk isn't a normal person either, but no one has yet objected to me nominating him as the 20th level barbarian.
The issue with the Greek heroes is that they aren't 20th level. Yes, Thor (either version) was born an Asgardian, but he's of the right power level to be facing demon lords. Perseus fought a lot of monsters, but nothing that...big.
That doesn't make them fundamentally different. It means not all characters have to be 20th level exemplars.
But Mjolnir does seem to have some add-ons. Good as the regular one is against giants, Mjolnir does seem to have giant-bane. And grant flight and weather control.
[Note to bystanders: Ordinarily I'd worry about derailing, but let's face it; the train is off the tracks and rolling toward the orphanage anyway. I may as well talk about Mjolnir while we wait for the crash.]
It is on topic, because the PoV I'm trying to push here is what if those are Thor's powers, manifested via an heirloom/legendary w3eapon/bonded item, not the powers of the hammer itself?
Instead, I'd like to see nonmagical fantasy. How about if a fantasy-level swordsman could cut ghosts in half, deflect boulders and rays, cut through stone walls like butter, shatter magic, and even cut a wedge out of a fireball or breath weapon, all using nonmagical skill?Again, my point is that if you don't have to label an ability as Ex or Su, it doesn't matter whether a swordsman is doing X with magic or skill, where X is He just does it.
But will the lack of distinction ever lead to one being more like the other? Even if we eliminate the game terms, the stuff a thematically magic character does will be supernature/magical and the stuff a thematically martial character does will be considered non-magical.
Right now at least the former gets a whole lot more bang for your buck then the latter. And there is a certain psychological comfort zone for both designers and dms to say, because magic.
I think the big example is the leadership feat. It is a thematically mundane way to gain a kind of power that can alter the story, both on the small scale and on the grand scale. 200 followers of various levels can alter the course of a war, become a theives guild and become an information gathering tool and a resource (money, items, influence) gathering tool of significant proportions. It can really mess with a planned out story. I believe this is alot of the reason that dms disallow it. It offers alot of viable and easy solutions to traditional adventure problems. But then, so does magic. So why dont those same dms get as upset when their story is derailed by a scry spell but want control over whether or not the rogue gets a theives guild of his own? It really seems like theres a strong psychological element there.
I dont know how removing the 2 leters in front of the ability description changes that psychology.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
He;s got more mythic levels than Cap.
I think he has more levels, period, than Cap.
If you don't want the Fighter to be able to perform a 60 foot straight up leaping pounce like SKR talks about, don't take the (theoretical) feats that allow that, or stick to your normal turf in the below 10 range where that stuff isn't possible. But stop trying to tell others how to play.
This is Fighter (Champion) Mythic path ability:
Aerial Assault (Su): You can charge at creatures in the air, or leap across obstacles as part of a charge. When making a charge attack, you can expend one use of mythic power to include a single Acrobatics check made to jump, adding 10 feet per tier to the height or distance you jump. You take no falling damage from the height gained as part of this leap. If your attack hits, you may deal an amount of additional damage equal to the falling damage appropriate for the height you reached. Alternatively, you may replace your melee attack from this charge with a grapple check. If you successfully grapple a creature, you bring it to the ground with you at the end of your jump, and it takes an appropriate amount of falling damage for the height it was at when you grappled it.There's also:
Devastating Smash (Su): Whenever you attack a construct or object, treat its hardness (or damage reduction in the case of constructs) as 10 less than normal. Add your tier to damage rolls against constructs and objects. If you expend one use of mythic power as part of an attack against a construct or object, you treat its hardness (or damage reduction) as 0 and add double your tier to damage instead.
Actually, most of the abilities asked for are already there, as Mythic abilities.
The issue that always comes up with someone like Thor and Hercules is they're not normal people - and never were.The Hulk isn't a normal person either, but no one has yet objected to me nominating him as the 20th level barbarian.
I am pretty sure hulk is a synthesist summoner that traded away his spells for an archetype that gave him the strength ability upgrade evolution like a billion times.
What if it was okay for him to be like that without Mythic, just by virtue of being a high-level fighter?
Then, what's Mythic for?
Ah! I see what you're saying: What if certain classes had (Ex) abilities that were, well, kind of like Use Magic Device? Not a supernatural ability themselves but an enabler of supernatural effects?...Ordinarily I'd worry about derailing, but let's face it; the train is off the tracks...It is on topic, because the PoV I'm trying to push here is what if those are Thor's powers, manifested via an heirloom/legendary w3eapon/bonded item, not the powers of the hammer itself?
Then you are butting up against the 'i want my character to be heroic not his gear' issue that comes in christmas tree magic item debates. Should a fighter be limited when he doesnt have his one particular sword when the druid doesnt need like a special amulet to be able to wild shape and cast reality shaping spells?
The issue that always comes up with someone like Thor and Hercules is they're not normal people - and never were.The Hulk isn't a normal person either, but no one has yet objected to me nominating him as the 20th level barbarian.
The issue with the Greek heroes is that they aren't 20th level. Yes, Thor (either version) was born an Asgardian, but he's of the right power level to be facing demon lords. Perseus fought a lot of monsters, but nothing that...big.
That doesn't make them fundamentally different. It means not all characters have to be 20th level exemplars.
Actually I would argue that the Hulk is a Beastmorph(or Ragechemist) Alchemist with the Master Chymst Prestige Class.
Points of evidence:
1) The hulk is not always the hulk. A good deal of his time is spent as a hyper intelligent book worm (Alchemists tend to run around with high Int... and ar book worms...)
2) The hulk was created by performing a scientific experiment on himself. The Master Chymist actually gains his Mutegenic Form form his constant exposure to his "experiments" (i.e mutegen).
3) The Hulk changes when Banner gets angry. When the Master Chymist is exposed to stress, he can actually force change is he failes his will save (i.e. cannot force himself to calm down).
So all in all, I think the Hulk is actually an alchemist... just saying..
So what is it about the maneuvers and stances of tome of battle dont give you that? I am pretty sure most of that was possible (except maybe the break empty space part but that sounds kind of cool).
I am honestly asking. What is the issue with the ability to somehow propell yourself into the air and attack dudes on the way up comes in the form of a 'maneuver' who's text block in the book looks suspiciously like a spell?
The fact that it IS so much like a spell, a vancian spell at that. If I wanted to use spells to do amazing things, I would play a spellcaster. If I want to play a guy who does amazing things through sheer badassery, I don't want to have to do so by piggy-backing the same system the other guy uses
That's why I grew to dislike 4th ed, every single character and situation became- Step 1: Is this the big fight of the day or are we in trouble? If yes, use daily powers; if no, go to step 2. Step 2: Use encounter powers because they're better than at-will powers. Step 3: when you have exhausted your encounter powers, resort to at-will powers. Step 4: Rest for 5 minutes to get encounter powers back. Repeat. Didn't matter if they were martial, arcane, divine, psionic, or any of the other power sources. They all literally did the exact same thing.
I'm going to try to give an analogy, so bear with me because I'm not always the best at getting my point across. I don't mind say, a bard, having access to bladed dash and greater. A magic user's modus operendi is that they can do lots of different special things with magic, but they eventually run out of magic. A martial character's thing should be: I can just DO several awesome things.
But if I want to do the equivalent thing, spring attack, for a fighter? I have to spend 3 feats (out of 21/22 for the fighter and 11/12 for everyone else) vs one 2nd lv spell known (out of at least 6 for a bard, and that's just one spell level), I have to have higher stat prerequisites (13 dex that I have no other class feature dependant on unless I spend ANOTHER feat for weapon finesse vs 12 cha that is going to at least 2 of my primary class features), and there just is no martial equivalent to the greater version.
If I want to be like Samurai Jack, and run through the enemy army slicing everything I pass, or train acrobatics with a boulder on my back so that when I take it off I can jump several stories into the air, or fight a shapeshifting demon at the bottom of the ocean by just holding my breath; that's just currently impossible without magic either in spell or item form. And it doesn't need to be.
|
This might be a good time to remind folks that the original topic of this thread was bending the distinction between Ex and Su abilities, and while that does border discussion the martial/caster disparity, that shouldn't become the primary topic of the thread. We've had that thread. About a million times.
How about people talk about why it is that certain Su abilities need to remain magic, or how they feel about superhuman feats being Ex? Instead of skipping to 'You'll pry my nonmagic fighter out of my cold, dead hands?', when no one is advocating that?
I'll happily discuss this. The Su distinction serves an important purpose (and so, in fact, does antimagic itself, but I'll get back to that.)
Superhuman/athletic stuff being Ex, and Fighters/Rogues getting a bunch of that stuff for free, I have no problem with. SKR's examples - reflecting a spell with a shield, pouncing through the air and inspiring his comrades to do more damage - all that is fine by me and fits comfortably as Ex.
Where I draw the line is at things like martial healing (of others, not self), martial psychokinesis, martial summoning/calling etc.
Should a fighter be limited when he doesnt have his one particular sword when the druid doesnt need like a special amulet to be able to wild shape and cast reality shaping spells?
Some wizards do need a special amulet to cast spells. A druid just needs a bit of mistletoe. A cleric needs a holy symbol.
A fighter needs a sword, and in higher levels, a magic sword.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Then, what's Mythic for?
What are higher levels for?
If mythic is for giving supernatural abilities to martials, what does it do for spellcasters?
Maybe Thor and Hulk are overshooting 20th level, and should be mythic (Being a god is a good mythic source, and it isn't hard to imagine the gamma bomb as Hulk's moment of ascension.)
But I have a hard time believing Captain America is the pinnacle of fighter-ness. (Especially when the things that make him the leader of the Avengers and not just a member sound like he has the Marshal Mythic Path instead.)
|
|
Then, what's Mythic for?
To be perfectly honest with you a lot of the martial mythic stuff should be baseline. Uncanny Grapple, Always Armed, Cage Enemy - any martial should have this stuff and I often give it away for free in my own games. It gives them fun stuff to do and they are still nowhere near a caster in power.
Should a fighter be limited when he doesnt have his one particular sword when the druid doesnt need like a special amulet to be able to wild shape and cast reality shaping spells?Some wizards do need a special amulet to cast spells. A druid just needs a bit of mistletoe. A cleric needs a holy symbol.
A fighter needs a sword, and in higher levels, a magic sword.
actually there are more than a few worth around on the whole "Holy symbol" requirement... more than a few involve banding yourself xD
Should a fighter be limited when he doesnt have his one particular sword when the druid doesnt need like a special amulet to be able to wild shape and cast reality shaping spells?Some wizards do need a special amulet to cast spells. A druid just needs a bit of mistletoe. A cleric needs a holy symbol.
A fighter needs a sword, and in higher levels, a magic sword.
You dont see a massive distinction there? Between the need for mundane and interchangable equipmenet and the reliance on a specific, uber powerful item?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sure, I like this. Just so as he can't CAST fireball, but yes, block it, sure.Instead, I'd like to see nonmagical fantasy. How about if a fantasy-level swordsman could cut ghosts in half, deflect boulders and rays, cut through stone walls like butter, shatter magic, and even cut a wedge out of a fireball or breath weapon, all using nonmagical skill?Again, my point is that if you don't have to label an ability as Ex or Su, it doesn't matter whether a swordsman is doing X with magic or skill, where X is He just does it.
Also as long as he doesn't have to CAST 'Flying Edge Massacre', and instead he can just DO it.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, that's my point. It's a fantasy world, even the non-spellcasters don't have to be limited to nonmagical abilities. :)
Exactly. I dislike the argument you made in your blog because I see it the opposite way: The fighter can/should have supernatural abilities. Currently, AFAIK, it is the only class that will never get a SU or SLA ability.
The keep the feeling of the class they should be things that affect the fighter abilities, similar (but different) to the monk abilities. Something that give a fighter more flexibility and versatility or mimic some creature ability but (generally) don't affect other creatures directly.The worst SU abilities you can give to a class are those similar to the witch hexes, where essentially you are giving a class spells without a spell drawback.
Giving a fighter the ability to deflect or reflect a spell back to its source with a shield or a parry or giving him the ability to breath flames is acceptable.
Giving him the ability to kill someone frightening him to death isn't.
But the difference between SU and EX should stay. "This is a magical effect" and "this is something that someone with enough training can do even where magic don't work" is a meaningful difference to me.
Should a fighter be limited when he doesnt have his one particular sword when the druid doesnt need like a special amulet to be able to wild shape and cast reality shaping spells?Some wizards do need a special amulet to cast spells. A druid just needs a bit of mistletoe. A cleric needs a holy symbol.
A fighter needs a sword, and in higher levels, a magic sword.
Sure, but barring a few specific spells, a caster doesn't need to spend thousands of gold upgrading their spell component pouch just to keep up.
Also as long as he doesn't have to CAST 'Flying Edge Massacre', and instead he can just DO it.Sure, I like this. Just so as he can't CAST fireball, but yes, block it, sure.Instead, I'd like to see nonmagical fantasy. How about if a fantasy-level swordsman could cut ghosts in half, deflect boulders and rays, cut through stone walls like butter, shatter magic, and even cut a wedge out of a fireball or breath weapon, all using nonmagical skill?Again, my point is that if you don't have to label an ability as Ex or Su, it doesn't matter whether a swordsman is doing X with magic or skill, where X is He just does it.
WFT is 'Flying Edge Massacre'?
You dont see a massive distinction there? Between the need for mundane and interchangable equipmenet and the reliance on a specific, uber powerful item?
I don't, really. A wizard can change his bonded item, a fighter should be able to change between different magic weapons. I'm not literally advocating that fighters get a 'baby mjolnir' at first level, the way gunslingers get a 'battered gun'. Thor is not a first level character.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think he should be cutting ghosts in half with an Ex ability and mundane sword. Ghosts are magical enough that I think defeating them with magic is reasonable.
The others I think can be Ex.
What if it's an Ex ability and a magic sword?
I think it is unlikely that, in any revision of Pathfinder, martial classes will stop toting magic swords.
(Darn that Samurai Jack! He inflated my expectations of martial characters beyond all reasonable levels!)
Samurai Jack: Loads of Ex abilities, backed by a magic sword.
|
|
Yes, that's my point. It's a fantasy world, even the non-spellcasters don't have to be limited to nonmagical abilities. :)Exactly. I dislike the argument you made in your blog because I see it the opposite way: The fighter can/should have supernatural abilities. Currently, AFAIK, it is the only class that will never get a SU or SLA ability.
The keep the feeling of the class they should be things that affect the fighter abilities, similar (but different) to the monk abilities. Something that give a fighter more flexibility and versatility or mimic some creature ability but (generally) don't affect other creatures directly.
The worst SU abilities you can give to a class are those similar to the witch hexes, where essentially you are giving a class spells without a spell drawback.Giving a fighter the ability to deflect or reflect a spell back to its source with a shield or a parry or giving him the ability to breath flames is acceptable.
Giving him the ability to kill someone frightening him to death isn't.But the difference between SU and EX should stay. "This is a magical effect" and "this is something that someone with enough training can do even where magic don't work" is a meaningful difference to me.
This is exactly my take on the entire issue. Thank you Diego.
(Though I don't have a problem with "spell-like Su abilities" like Witch Hexes. I think they add a great dimension to the game that SLAs lack.)
That was my suggestion with the samurai weapon. But I'd also allow a Fighter to be able to pick up any weapon he has prof in, practice with it for a hour, then be just as expert with that as his main specialized weapon.
|
|
I don't think he should be cutting ghosts in half with an Ex ability and mundane sword. Ghosts are magical enough that I think defeating them with magic is reasonable.
The others I think can be Ex.
What if it's an Ex ability and a magic sword?
I think it is unlikely that, in any revision of Pathfinder, martial classes will stop toting magic swords.
I'm fine with that. Remember that magic swords do have a chance of hurting incorporeals even without ghost touch. So you can do a ToB maneuver with a +1 sword and indeed chop that ghost in two.
Sure, but barring a few specific spells, a caster doesn't need to spend thousands of gold upgrading their spell component pouch just to keep up.
I realize that. But this chain of discussion was talking about the idea that Fighters could enhance items on their own. (And most wizards WILL spend a lot of money on their bonded item.)
WFT is 'Flying Edge Massacre'?
An example name for a Fighter Technique from earlier in the thread. I think generically for 'Superhuman (Ex) ability that does a cool thing'. Possibly specifically means something like a leaping full attack.
Example: I once played in a high level one-off where my character was big beefy Paladin with lots of muscles and charm and very little smarts. During the first chunk of the adventure, I shrugged off what should have been a fatal attack from a devil prince, wrestled an ancient red wyrm in a lake of lava, and then was totally flummoxed when we got to an indestructible fortress floating 50 feet above the ground. The party wizard felt so bad for me blew two teleports to leave, buy me a magic carpet, and come back.
That's stupid (and I'm not just referring to me playing a high level game and forgetting to pack along something that would let me fly). It's stupid that a 50 foot gap can completely shut down a character capable of grappling with wyrms and wading through death effects like they aren't even there unless they have magical assistance.
I'd argue that the failure was the GM's, for setting up such an obstacle - assuming there was no other way around it. Alternately, I place the blame on the other party members. A spellcaster who can teleport and purchase a Deus Ex Machina device could just as easily have gotten your character up to the flying castle.
Speaking for myself, I'm wary of martial characters getting "magical" abilities. I lean that way because (again, personal preference), it jars my suspension of disbelief when the same warrior who (e.g.) can cause a minor earthquake with his fist is statistically unlikely to hit someone more than once in six seconds (depending on the opponent, of course). That is, I can't really reconcile some of the proposed superhuman abilities (leap 50 feet, etc.) with someone whose fundamental reality is the constraints of the BaB.
The same goes when one considers the other magic available in the game. Consider this example:
Let's say you generate a Human Barbarian. His starting strength is 18. With the racial bonus, it becomes 20. By level 20, it's 25. Counting his Strength bonus, you can expect to roll as high as a 50 on an unadjusted Acrobatics check. What that means is that, with a natural 20, your Barbarian could leap as high as 13 feet. If he earned a Belt of Giant Strength +6, he could jump as high as 14 feet on a natural 20. If he were raging, he could reach 15 feet.
The point of this exercise is to indicate that the ultimate examples of magical and extraordinary strength augmentation from the Core Rulebook account for all of an added 2 feet of height that this amazing character could reach while performing a high-jump. When considering amazing abilities for high-level characters, this context has to be taken into consideration.
Meaning, if there is an ability - extraordinary or supernatural - that allows a martial character the ability to jump fifty feet (more than five times what the exemplar barbarian could with his powerful magical item), my first thought as a pro-martial class gamer is, "Why does my character have such amazing leg strength... but doesn't have similar core, back, or arm strength?" Because you better believe that, with an equal amount of arm strength, this character would be devastating.
The same holds for the poster who mentioned punching the ground and creating an earthquake: does that character also have an ability wherein they punch a person (and not just some single Hit Die minion) and leave them either pulped or with a gaping hole in their torso? Does every swing of their melee weapon have the potential to drop buildings or what have you?
Again, speaking purely for myself, I'm much more interested in the extraordinary abilities of martial characters becoming truly extraordinary. I'm less interested in my Fighter being able to leap fifty feet up in the air and more interested in him being so good at, say, Feinting, that he can pull that off as a Move Action to begin with and as a Swift Action with the Feat Improved Feint.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
But will the lack of distinction ever lead to one being more like the other? Even if we eliminate the game terms, the stuff a thematically magic character does will be supernature/magical and the stuff a thematically martial character does will be considered non-magical.
Right now at least the former gets a whole lot more bang for your buck then the latter. And there is a certain psychological comfort zone for both designers and dms to say, because magic.
Again, if you don't have to put an ability into an Ex or Su box, it's just a level-appropriate, class-appropriate ability. The name and the Ex/Su label don't matter.
Did you know that many designers for TCG companies use fake names for individual cards rather than the final names those cards have in the set? For example, a 10/10 beater monster in Magic: The Gathering playtests might be called "the Hulk" or "Iron Man," but is finally renamed to "Adamantine Juggernaut" later in the process. They design the mechanics, and may let the flavor inform the mechanics (like "we know this set is about traveling to a steampunk plane, so feel free to loot steampunk concepts for things cards should do"), but they don't let the future flavor constrain the mechanics (as in "existing examples of steampunk literature won't allow teleportation, so we can't have any teleportation effects in this set").
So if you forget about whether an ability is Ex or Su, and whether a class is nonmagical or magical, it frees you up to design cool stuff that's thematic for the class. Games like Numenera already do this—your shoot-lasers-from-eyes powers might be from nanobots in your system, or bizarre surgical alterations, or you have cybernetic eyes, or because you're actually a hard light hologram, or you're an extraterrestrial, or you were experimented on with weird drugs, but the net effect is the same: you can shoot lasers out of your eyes.
So if I'm designing a level 10 ability for a class, it should be
* an appropriate power level for character level 10, and
* appropriate to the theme of the class,
whether that class's theme is
* "great power from amazing martial training" (fighter)
* "parent is a deity and genetics are awesome" (fighter)
* "near-precognitive intuition for tasks" (rogue)
* "ridiculously lucky like Fonzie" (rogue)
* "mutual pact with a supernatural entity" (cleric)
* "chosen evangelist of a transdimensional being" (cleric)
* "uncanny knowledge of physics that lets me exploit loopholes in reality" (wizard)
* "catalysis of fantastic reactions using apparently-ordinary combinations of materials" (wizard)
* or any other explanation you think is appropriate for your interpretation of your class, race, and archetype.
Don't let the flavor (and the difference between Ex and Su is mostly flavor) limit the options for design.
And yes, I'm drawing a line between "flavor" and "theme of the class." "Rogues are martials and can't have magical abilities" is limiting design based on flavor. "Rogues can teleport a short distance to get behind an enemy, but not across the continent" is limiting a design based on a class's theme. (And that technically doesn't mean that "the greatest escape artist ever" as a rogue theme couldn't have "I get away from my heists by teleporting a mile away." Continuing our comic book analogies, would you say Nightcrawler from the X-Men is best represented as a cleric, fighter, rogue, or wizard? I'd say fighter or rogue, leaning toward rogue (stealth, swashbuckling, personable)... with the ability to teleport.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let's say you generate a Human Barbarian. His starting strength is 18. With the racial bonus, it becomes 20. By level 20, it's 25. Counting his Strength bonus, you can expect to roll as high as a 30 on...
I think that's a flaw in the movement rules, frankly.
The result of an acrobatics/jump check have to be relatively minor: otherwise you have level 1 characters leaping much too far because they rolled a 20 instead of a 10 or 15. The randomizer is just too big.
Which, in turn, constrains the higher level powers available, because the necessary bonuses to do it via a skill check are like the 3.5 jump spell: +30! It makes you wonder why you bothered putting points in at all.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
(And that technically doesn't mean that "the greatest escape artist ever" as a rogue theme couldn't have "I get away from my heists by teleporting a mile away."
To elaborate here, I'd be perfectly fine with an 'escape artist' archetype/PrC/class/whatever, getting an ability that is a non-magical way to teleport free of their bonds. Because the game is an abstraction. I don't need to understand how Houdini does his tricks: all I have to know is he just stepped onstage instead of being chained upside down in a tank of water.
The character got free somehow. Player can justify it however they wish, or hold their cards close to their chest, if they like. Mechanically, they got out of the tank and appeared where they wanted, and not even an antimagic field or dimensional lock could stop them.
|
|
Right, but why does a dragon's breath have to be magical, when its strength, ability to fly, and longevity are not? Why is the fire created by a fireball still magical after it has exploded?
Why does a fireballs magical fire get stopped by spell resistance but a dragon's magical fire not?
Because that's how magic works. Let me make an analogy. Asking those questions in a magical setting is similar to me asking the following:
If science is real, why does wood burn and iron doesn't? And don't use none o' that highfalutin' "physics" or "chemistery" non-sense, I don't hold with any o' that "science!" If your book learning is true, why do different things burn different colors????? Why isn't all fire the same?????
It's an absurd question and I exaggerated mine for comedic effect, because the answer to my questions is that it's simply how the universe works, and the answer to your question is that it's simply how Golarion works. It's magic. My questions can be answered with a careful explanation of real-life physics, because we understand our world. Yours can't, because we don't understand Golarion. I'm sure someone who had ranks in K. Arcana, like Ezren, could provide you with a more detailed answer.
Actually iron burn. Rust is oxidation and with the right combination of chemicals you can get it to "burn" in the more common sense of the world. See video
@Byers There is a rule in the magic section that rarely affect play, but show how different is the fire from a fireball from that of a alchemist fire:
A spell's range is the maximum distance from you that the spell's effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell's point of origin. If any portion of the spell's area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.
So, if I cast a fireball to my maximum range of 400 ft. + 40 ft./level the area outside the my range is unaffected. Instead of a sphere of flame I get a crescent, with the area outside my maximum range cut away. That is what make something born of magic different from something "natural".
Let's say you generate a Human Barbarian. His starting strength is 18. With the racial bonus, it becomes 20. By level 20, it's 25. Counting his Strength bonus, you can expect to roll as high as a 30 on...I think that's a flaw in the movement rules, frankly.
The result of an acrobatics/jump check have to be relatively minor: otherwise you have level 1 characters leaping much too far because they rolled a 20 instead of a 10 or 15. The randomizer is just too big.
Which, in turn, constrains the higher level powers available, because the necessary bonuses to do it via a skill check are like the 3.5 jump spell: +30! It makes you wonder why you bothered putting points in at all.
I kind of liked the way mutants and masterminds handled that. You had strength, which functions much like it does in pathfinder, then you have super strength, that can do way more dramatic things. I feel like we need 'super skills' or something.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Byers There is a rule in the magic section that rarely affect play, but show how different is the fire from a fireball from that of a alchemist fire:
A spell's range is the maximum distance from you that the spell's effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell's point of origin. If any portion of the spell's area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.So, if I cast a fireball to my maximum range of 400 ft. + 40 ft./level the area outside the my range is unaffected. Instead of a sphere of flame I get a crescent, with the area outside my maximum range cut away. That is what make something born of magic different from something "natural".
Again, I understand how the rules work. I'm saying that they could work differently without being worse. It's really weird that dragon's breath (or any Su) fire and fireball (or most Sp) fire work differently.
If the rules changed so that fire was just fire (thus making SR something that applied just to spells that specifically target that creature), what would that break?
WFT is 'Flying Edge Massacre'?An example name for a Fighter Technique from earlier in the thread. I think generically for 'Superhuman (Ex) ability that does a cool thing'. Possibly specifically means something like a leaping full attack.
Kinda like: Sweeping Strike (Su): Even when you're swarmed, your foes are not safe from danger. Whenever you could make a full attack, you may instead make a single attack at your highest attack bonus and apply the results to all opponents within your reach. Roll damage once and apply it to all opponents hit by the attack. This attack can't deal precision damage. If the attack roll is a critical threat, choose one target you hit and attempt to confirm the critical against that target.
Or even Aerial Assault (Su)?
|
|
There's no reason for dragonfire to be supernatural. Anyone can breathe fire. All it takes is a mouthful of high proof alcohol and a lighter or spark. Dragon flight, on the other hand, violates the square cube law and therefore cannot possibly be anything but magic and yet it's Ex.
For a long time it wasn't clear how a bumblebee can fly. The laws of aerodynamic know at the time said it shouldn't be capable to to fly as the mass/wing surface is wrong (your square/cube law). Fairly recently it was determined how it do it. Similarly the giant insects of the Paleozoic era today would have trouble surviving, but during that period the content of oxygen in the atmosphere was higher.
AFAIK the dragon can be capable to use the same tricks as the bumblebee, of have a way to hyperoxygenate his body to get a higher performance for some time.
WFT is 'Flying Edge Massacre'?An example name for a Fighter Technique from earlier in the thread. I think generically for 'Superhuman (Ex) ability that does a cool thing'. Possibly specifically means something like a leaping full attack.Kinda like: Sweeping Strike (Su): Even when you're swarmed, your foes are not safe from danger. Whenever you could make a full attack, you may instead make a single attack at your highest attack bonus and apply the results to all opponents within your reach. Roll damage once and apply it to all opponents hit by the attack. This attack can't deal precision damage. If the attack roll is a critical threat, choose one target you hit and attempt to confirm the critical against that target.
Or even Aerial Assault (Su)?
Sure. Though both of those could be Ex.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Huh... you leave for just a bit and come back to over a 150 new replies. You want to respond to stuff from way back, but people have already covered sufficiently what you would go over. Awkward posting is awkward so I'll just key points this.
1. Non-Magic should not mean mundane.
2. Captain America is a great example of a level 8 Fighter. A level 15 should make him look like a chump.
3. The fact that martials breaking mountains is considered "ridiculous" at the levels casters are making planes of existence, makes me ask why that's ridiculous. Because it doesn't seem ridiculous to me.
4. Very on board with reflecting spells as (Ex) and I also agree that a lot of the mythic martial stuff should just be regular martial stuff. A feat that lets you get Dex to damage is not mythic.
5. Cutting walls and breaking boulders/mountains should just be a thing at high levels. Something a martial can just *do*.
Ross, if nothing else I wanted to apologize for rushing through that post and thus posting bad numbers. I think the edit version got rid of a couple of typos, but the results should have been right (or only off by a foot or so).
Beyond that... I mean, what are you to do? Do the ranges of the skills really need to be adjusted? I would disagree - but again, I'm against Martial Classes getting supernatural abilities. In fact, I'll do you one better: I'll argue to you that the skills already allow for the superhuman/magical, even for non-magical characters.
Strength 20 (nevermind 25 or 31 or 39!) represents a paragon of humanity, right? Strength 25 should reflect someone who has spent their entire heroic career focusing on the development of their physical strength.
With that in mind, a regulation NBA basketball hoop is set ten feet high. That 20th level Barbarian we're talking about, who has invested one skill point per level in Acrobatics and has focused himself totally on strength development, can jump three feet higher than that without raging or magical items.
Mind you, that's not how high his hands go, but his feet.
That's absolutely phenomenal.