I would have walked out too. You and the others did the right thing. Asking to keep those absurd stats, isn't. I would tell them that if they want to keep those stats, one of them should be the GM instead. Or, if none of them want to be "it", then they have to go for the 15-20 point buy. 25 could be an option, too.
As a slightly off-topic, I once rolled something similar back during the early days of 3rd edition. Rolled 18, 18, 18, 17, 16, 16 in front of everyone. I voluntarily gave those to the DM for use as the BBEG's stats if he wanted, and I rerolled my scores. That was using 3d6 reroll 1s. So those stats can technically happen, but it is extremely rare.
After reading this thread, I decided to try some old school character generation and got out my six-sided dice. After doing the 4d6 thing (rolled six times, discarding the lowest die each time), this is what I got:
18/16/15/15/15/10
Not crazy-good, but definitely better than 20 point or even 25 point buying systems. So I did it again, to see if my luck was holding:
15/13/11/10/9/8
Yeah, that's more like what I remember from AD&D 2nd Edition. Personally, I would be bored stiff playing a character with super-high scores across the board. But everyone has different motivations...
Honestly, I once rolled up an 18/17/17/16/16/15 PC for another player, so I know it's possible to get ridiculous stats. This player also couldn't roll less than 17 on a d20. She's just super lucky.
Or she's using loaded dice.
Actually if you play long enough, the odds of having a "hot" night where everything goes your way against all probability approach 1. Granted the opposite is also true, the longer you play the odds of having a "cold" night where the GM fudges to save you 3 times and then says I give up when you get crit for the 4th time that night and kills you also approach 1. Old gamers can almost always remember the "cold" streak that killed a beloved character that one time I find.
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Ironically, I have found, the better I roll for my character stats, the shorter lived the campaign, or the less time I will be involved in the campaign.
About a year ago I rolled up these stats I for a 5th level elven wizard, with a friend watching the roll. I believe we rolled 4d6 drop lowest one, and re roll 1s
11 16 14 18 17 12
I was really excited with the stat roll
With racial Modifiers
11, 18, 12, 20, 17, 12
After 4th level
11, 18, 12, 21, 17, 12
I was quite excited about this array of stats. My friend also made a wizard.
We made specialist wizards, Him an evoker, and I made a conjurer. We called our characters Caster and Pollux. We had fun teasing each other...with him always blowing things up, and according to my character was the laziest character because I would always conjure help.
We had fun, but I was only in the campaign for one session.
Tell them. A character that too powerful is lame. Don't be Superman without weakness. Be Batman with magic instead martial art. If a character is too powerful, it's overpower and there will be no fun. The best fun is to work as a team and help each others with teamwork in perfection. That's why I tend to make boss fight that will need every single character do their things in order to win. Each of them will have a little bit of time to work it out what they have to do. They will win if they got this, they will die otherwise. They usually win because they know their weakness and strength, instead of going into battle and thinking they can beat everything.
I agree with your sentiment.... But.....
Kryptonite?
Using the 3d6 I have never in literally thousands perhaps tens of thousands of times rolled more than one eighteen. Using 4d6 I have rolled an eighteen perhaps 3 or four times. I have rolled several characters with either one or two 16's and one or two 17's (total 3). 17, 17, 16, 12, 11, 9 etc. But I've rolled more characters than carter has little pills. If I rolled two 18's I'd go buy lotto tickets.
As for the power level start them at 20 or even 25 it'll ease them into their 'lesser power state'. Or perhaps use 3d6 but reroll ones and twos. That gives them at least a '9' in everything.
Honestly, I once rolled up an 18/17/17/16/16/15 PC for another player, so I know it's possible to get ridiculous stats. This player also couldn't roll less than 17 on a d20. She's just super lucky.Or she's using loaded dice.
Nope, she could do it with anyone's dice.
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I am sorry, stats are an issue. The game was made and balanced over a period of years. For example, spell will get easier negated because of the high stats un less the dm goes through changing all the dc's and thats like rewriting thr rules to me.
I am teaching my kids about the game and told them OP players will make the game boring for others. Also winning and losing is part of the game. Fun is supose to be a major part of the game and if OP players is their way of having fun, then they can go play a campaign with 18 stats across the board.
I had 16 higher stat and the rest was meh, i played a fighter with a con of 9. He was always sick and i rolled played him that way.. It was interesting
In Michael Moorcock's Hawkmoon novels, the hero had a friend called Huillam d'Averc, a warrior who affected a cough and always complained about his 'poor constitution'. But he was really as tough as they come.
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Nope, she could do it with anyone's dice.Honestly, I once rolled up an 18/17/17/16/16/15 PC for another player, so I know it's possible to get ridiculous stats. This player also couldn't roll less than 17 on a d20. She's just super lucky.Or she's using loaded dice.
Blood sacrifices to the RNG can do that.
As I said before, this obsession with the stats is totally misleading. They don't matter. The extra +1 or +2 makes a small difference in a game of big modifiers, and you can just make NPC stats the same (Saves are +2 higher; well, now so are Save DCs).
Alternatively, just let your players be 10% better at everything than average PCs. They'll walk through some encounters, but perhaps that's what they enjoy. Go for it. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun.
In the grand scheme of things an extra +2 on a d20 roll isn't that big a deal.
Um, yeah it's not just a +1 or a +2 to each roll. The game (monsters, modules, and APS) is built for 15 point buy.
Point Buy:
16 (+3), 14 (+2), 12 (+1), 10 (+0),10 (+0), 8 (-1)
God Mode:
18 (+4), 18 (+4), 18 (+4), 17 (+3), 17 (+3), 16 (+3)
It is a big difference, almost 15% average per stat. If you give all your monsters a +2 as well you are only proving that it is a big deal. Why complicate things and give yourself more work to do? Play a reduced point buy and then you don't need to modify anything.
They did that too. that was part of why the one guy was pulling his hair out. XD
Thats why i like point buy for stats, one less piece of ammo for antagonistic gms to get all bent about. C'mon, if you want rolled stats for your players and one rolls like that in front of you, eithersuck it up or re evaluate the pros cons of pb vs rolled stats, dont be a red faced moron gm if you bring it upon yourself .
In the grand scheme of things an extra +2 on a d20 roll isn't that big a deal.
think of it this way. It's the equivalent of giving a fighter a belt of physical might for free at character creation, if not a belt of physical perfection.
Take a look at the cost. A +2 one stat belt isn't truly affordable till around 6-7th level, and even then it's not till 10th that a +2 to 2 stat belt is affordable.
I'd say it is a big deal. As someone who's playing in a campaign with multiple overpowered stats (my array is currently 20,18,15,16,14,8 and it's not even the best array), the GM is struggling to keep encounters competitive. It also makes playing less fun. I have a +25 on my trip at level 7, so the GM adds +15 to all enemy CMD's so I don't auto trip. This leads down a bad road of it getting harder and harder for me to trip so I invest more, which in turn causes him to up the CMD. In the end all that ends up happening is that I can trip 25-30% of the time, but now the CMD's so high that no one else can do anything.
It's not just the +1-2 to one roll. Strength ups my to hit, damage, skills, and it's one of the lesser used stats. In addition, higher stats open up different feat selections.
A fighter with 20 strength 17 dex at the start of a game can go absolutely bonkers with a strength twf build, since they have the stats for it. Try making that work with a 15 point buy though. In the end you're removing trade-offs that make the game function when people have ridiculous stats.
+1
The key words being:
...the GM is struggling...
Why make the game harder than it already is?
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Well last night 6 out of 8 players walked out on our DM. Had a boss fight that took out everyone but 3. The other 5 were unconscious. One of the party members came up and killed 2 out of 5 stating he didn't like them and took their loot. They only reason the 7th person didn't walk is because they are related to the murderer out of game.
2 people tried to stop him but the DM told us that he gets to act first because he said he wanted to kill them. (both unconscious characters were over 50 feet apart and were killed before we could react).
Our levels are from 5 to 7 but characters are extremely overpowered. IE: sorcerer with 18/18/18/17/17/17 stats. They want to keep their characters and play them in the new campaign but I want them to make new ones at a 15 or 20 point buy... they dislike this because they don't feel "powerful" anymore.
I don't have the experience to set up a game with uber min/max characters... how do I convince them to make new ones?
That's... crazysauce. They sound like a secret league of pvp powergamers.
I'd certainly never play at that table again.
+1
The key words being:Why make the game harder than it already is?
...the GM is struggling...
Which is harder?
1) Adding +2 to lots of things (damage, attacks, DC's, etc)
2) Or convincing your friends to change how they play RPG's
2 seems the harder option to me, because I've tried it on various things for years. I'm making progress, but it's slow and I've worked very hard at it. (not the kinds of changes we're talking about here)
The other thing is you can choose when you use option 1. You don't have to do it all the time, you could instead just add another monster to increase the difficulty without adjusted stats on the fly.
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Our levels are from 5 to 7 but characters are extremely overpowered. IE: sorcerer with 18/18/18/17/17/17 stats. They want to keep their characters and play them in the new campaign but I want them to make new ones at a 15 or 20 point buy... they dislike this because they don't feel "powerful" anymore.I don't have the experience to set up a game with uber min/max characters... how do I convince them to make new ones?
Don't waste your time and effort trying to challenge them. Just throw 1st level warriors and the like at them. After a few sessions of everything going down in one hit they may reconsider wanting to feel "powerful".
My suggestion is to plan a different game for this Friday. Like a board game, bowling, mini-golf or a big meal/murder mystery game. Ya that kind of different game.
Then around the game have everyone talk about what they want out of the next RPG.
State clearly what you care about, (social gathering, challenge, good story, kick in the door and grab the loot, whatever) and what your limits are. See what everyone else wants. With 8 people you may want to consider splitting into two groups. Or you all may be able to settle on one type of game.
Then establish some ground rules (no PvP, x point buy, etc.) and build your campaign around that.
Whatever they decide on just roll with it:
If they want super powerful, make a pathfinder superhero type game, if they want PvP give them a game with 8 clones each (instant brain transfers on death) and have them be a thieves guild in a sandbox. Sure stabbing someone in the back is allowed, but if you do it they have to know the clones might exact revenge. Then let the players play.
If everyone can buy in these games can be fun, if you try to force a serious game on people who are looking for stress relief, well that ends badly every time.
We loved it. Played it two years ago as the beginning to the Jade Regent Adventure Path. We still talk about those goblins. Playing those insane maniacs was a blast.
You should also download the "We Be Goblins Too".
Which is harder?
1) Adding +2 to lots of things (damage, attacks, DC's, etc)
2) Or convincing your friends to change how they play RPG's
Which is better? They're spoiled rotten. They need to know that games that allow stats like those are aberrations, not the norm.
Which is better? They're spoiled rotten. They need to know that games that allow stats like those are aberrations, not the norm.Which is harder?
1) Adding +2 to lots of things (damage, attacks, DC's, etc)
2) Or convincing your friends to change how they play RPG's
I like how many people are so cavalier with pushing someone else into teaching their players life lessons.
The self-righteousness is very thick in here.
To be clear, I don't disagree with your sentiment, but what you're offering is not an easy path, nor one that is going to have a high success rate. It's risky and could easily collapse a new game run by someone who has never GM'ed before. Advising them to take the difficult road could lead to them deciding to never GM again, because this experience is so awful.
Set aside the moral superiority when you're giving the advice IMO.
Which is better? They're spoiled rotten. They need to know that games that allow stats like those are aberrations, not the norm.Which is harder?
1) Adding +2 to lots of things (damage, attacks, DC's, etc)
2) Or convincing your friends to change how they play RPG's
I like how many people are so cavalier with pushing someone else into teaching their players life lessons.
The self-righteousness is very thick in here.
maybe, but he's not wrong.
maybe, but he's not wrong.Which is better? They're spoiled rotten. They need to know that games that allow stats like those are aberrations, not the norm.Which is harder?
1) Adding +2 to lots of things (damage, attacks, DC's, etc)
2) Or convincing your friends to change how they play RPG's
I like how many people are so cavalier with pushing someone else into teaching their players life lessons.
The self-righteousness is very thick in here.
And if confronting the players and forcing something onto them leads to the groups near immediate dissolution? What then?
Don't be cavalier with someone else's game. Give advice for success, not perfection.
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What I really want to know based on what I read from the original post is....why the heck didn't the GM just say "Hell No!". I mean think through the ramifications of allowing rampant PvP and killing off your fellow tablemates' characters. What's the point of that?
If I were the GM, I'd tell the players that they need to work out there differences and not kill each other. That's not really fun for anyone. And, if a single player is that disruptive to the continuity of the game, then he's the one that has the problem and should be asked to either make nice or leave play.
Well last night 6 out of 8 players walked out on our DM. Had a boss fight that took out everyone but 3. The other 5 were unconscious. One of the party members came up and killed 2 out of 5 stating he didn't like them and took their loot. They only reason the 7th person didn't walk is because they are related to the murderer out of game.
2 people tried to stop him but the DM told us that he gets to act first because he said he wanted to kill them. (both unconscious characters were over 50 feet apart and were killed before we could react).
Our levels are from 5 to 7 but characters are extremely overpowered. IE: sorcerer with 18/18/18/17/17/17 stats. They want to keep their characters and play them in the new campaign but I want them to make new ones at a 15 or 20 point buy... they dislike this because they don't feel "powerful" anymore.
I don't have the experience to set up a game with uber min/max characters... how do I convince them to make new ones?
This is not 100% on the GM. If people are going to get their feelings hurt because of PVP then a no PVP rule should be in place. With that said the GM probably should have stopped the game at that point and found a consensus on how the group wishes to handled things going forward.
So I voiced my opinion about it and he said that's how the rogue likes to play and have fun.
Well with this information I agree he should have been fired. That is terrible logic.
I don't have the experience to set up a game with uber min/max characters... how do I convince them to make new ones?
I think two of the best words you can say about this are: clean slate.
Starting up a new game without a lot of GMing experience, tell them you want a fresh start and they're free to use the stat generation ground rules (in this case point buy) to remake their characters as best they can.
Different campaign = different expectations.
Again, the stats aren't the issue. If all the PC's are equally overpowered and they are having fun, that's fine. The issue is the jerk behavior of one of the players and his pet spineless DM.
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Bingo!
The point of the GM is to guide play and make it fun. I don't blame the players for walking out at all. Plus, if I were them, I'd never play with the guy who instigated the entire situation to begin with, nor the GM.
Again, the stats aren't the issue. If all the PC's are equally overpowered and they are having fun, that's fine. The issue is the jerk behavior of one of the players and his pet spineless DM.
To the OP: give the players the option of rerolling scores (4d6, drop 1), or 30 point-buy, which is quite generous.
18x3, 17x3 is 80 point-buy... you can afford to be generous the first time.
I don't have the experience to set up a game with uber min/max characters... how do I convince them to make new ones?
Tell them you're going to up the CR of all encounters by +4 to compensate for their stats if they want to have stats like that.
Then if they decide that's what they want, let them have what they want.
I GM often for a party that's based on 25 point buys, which are considered "epic" or whatever. I just add the "advanced" template to literally everything they meet, and it works out okay.
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And if confronting the players and forcing something onto them leads to the groups near immediate dissolution? What then?
Then you're not playing with a bunch of spoiled brat players.
If my options are that or not playing, well, I'm sure there's a movie I want to rent.
My 2 coppers worth of suggestion.
If you are starting out as a DM, it's better to learn gradually, using the more assumed standard power level for things instead of needing to ad hoc stat adjustments and templates in every single encounter trying to balance against an overpowered (compared to baseline) group. You don't have a lot of the experience in balancing to a group yet. I expect that you will be perfectly fine doing so in future, just need a little seasoning.
One option would be to ask to run a 'normal' power level module or two (Crypt of the Everflame springs to mind) to get your feet under you as a DM, then if you feel better let them dust off the powerful guys afterwards and go to town having fun.
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Then you're not playing with a bunch of spoiled brat players.And if confronting the players and forcing something onto them leads to the groups near immediate dissolution? What then?
So, your advice is that he should demand to have his way or not play?
How is that not spoiled brat behavior?
You are literally advocating the behavior you're decrying.
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@Irontruth
We are all speaking the same language and hoping for similar results.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
In your model, you are hoping to maintain a power hungry player and change that players style over many years by gradually reducing the stats of the character. This takes a more experienced GM to do because it necessitates a lot of on the fly application of more challenging scenarios and opponents. This is the only method to use when you are playing with a uncompromising group that you don't want to stop playing with.
What others are suggesting is a complete overhaul of the method of playing. One that will be easier for a new GM. Like jumping into a pool, it might be shocking at first but it gets more comfortable quicker. Using this method requires a tighter knit group that is willing to trust that the game will be fun as long as they are playing with friends.
If the OP sets the parameters of the game, the problem players will know right away that he isn't a pushover like the last GM. If those players whine and pout about not being über leet and complain until they get their way, what have they learned?
In any case, if the problem players continue to complain and try to take advantage of each other, they really aren't friends or people you want to play with anyway.
Then you're not playing with a bunch of spoiled brat players.And if confronting the players and forcing something onto them leads to the groups near immediate dissolution? What then?
So, your advice is that he should demand to have his way or not play?
How is that not spoiled brat behavior?
You are literally advocating the behavior you're decrying.
Your skill at missing the point is astounding.
He's said he's not experienced enough to run a game like that. Why should he have to deal with the leftover garbage from the first game? Anybody with a clue will tell you to play the game as close to standard as you can while you're learning it.
Better to not play, than play a game you won't enjoy.
We Be Goblins is an excellent choice for a one-off when transitioning between campaigns.
-TimD
With my luck at rolling dice I would get 1 17-18 and 4-5 under 10's and not 4-5 17-18 and 1 under 10 lol
