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I don't have the experience to set up a game with uber min/max characters... how do I convince them to make new ones?Tell them you're going to up the CR of all encounters by +4 to compensate for their stats if they want to have stats like that.
Then if they decide that's what they want, let them have what they want.
I GM often for a party that's based on 25 point buys, which are considered "epic" or whatever. I just add the "advanced" template to literally everything they meet, and it works out okay.
Right, just sit down and talk this out like adults. From what i can see from your old DM, this would be a new, fresh experience for them, anyway.;-)
Explain you want them to have fun, but OTOH, it's gonna be hard for you, as a new DM, to really challenge them with stats like that. Ask their advice.
Honestly, assuming they are mature at all, they will come up with some really good ideas, and may well volunteer more nerfing that you'd consider- and they will have bought into it.
@Irontruth
We are all speaking the same language and hoping for similar results.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.In your model, you are hoping to maintain a power hungry player and change that players style over many years by gradually reducing the stats of the character. This takes a more experienced GM to do because it necessitates a lot of on the fly application of more challenging scenarios and opponents. This is the only method to use when you are playing with a uncompromising group that you don't want to stop playing with.
What others are suggesting is a complete overhaul of the method of playing. One that will be easier for a new GM. Like jumping into a pool, it might be shocking at first but it gets more comfortable quicker. Using this method requires a tighter knit group that is willing to trust that the game will be fun as long as they are playing with friends.
If the OP sets the parameters of the game, the problem players will know right away that he isn't a pushover like the last GM. If those players whine and pout about not being über leet and complain until they get their way, what have they learned?
In any case, if the problem players continue to complain and try to take advantage of each other, they really aren't friends or people you want to play with anyway.
I agree there's more than one way to skin a cat.
I personally just find the uncompromising "my way or the highway" to be selfish, immature and generally irresponsible. Which is how a lot of people have phrased their advice.
How other people play at other tables is largely irrelevant. I've played D&D and now PF for 20 years in a medium sized metropolitan area. I will probably never play with 99.5% of the players in my area, so it doesn't matter how most people "usually" play.
There's also the joke about psychologists:
How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?
One, but the light bulb has to want to change.
Forcing change on a group is difficult. Trying to do it while you're learning to GM just makes the experience of GM'ing that much harder and more frustrating. It might be that the OP's desires are not compatible with the group and if so he will probably have to move on and find different people to game with. If he wants to stick with them though, it is better to compromise and adapt to them instead of trying to force multiple people to adapt to you.
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I personally just find the uncompromising "my way or the highway" to be selfish, immature and generally irresponsible. Which is how a lot of people have phrased their advice.
Iron, your missing the point. No one is ordering the OP to do what we say. We're giving our advice. Some of us see spoiled players, and that's how we'd handle it. Get off your high horse.
Now you might handle it differently. Cool, throw your advice out here. But in my opinion when you have a really toxic group, having someone step up and make the hard decision usually works out better then someone who acts wishywashy. This way when your expectations are clear, the group can have fun, which it sounds like it wasn't having prior.
How other people play at other tables is largely irrelevant.
except, when the OP is specifically asking for advice.
I personally just find the uncompromising "my way or the highway" to be selfish, immature and generally irresponsible. Which is how a lot of people have phrased their advice.
Old wounds perhaps. I'm probably guilty of feeling that way as well.
I'm curious to hear back for the OP after the "player expectations" conversation.
I read 18/18/18/17/17/17 and just laughed and laughed.it CAN happen... in rolled stats. Happened to me once.
I used to 'warm up' my dice before rolling stats. Then I'd say, "Okay ready to rock." Once when warming up the dice my first roll was 17 and second was 18. I said, "Ok ready to rock" my DM paid attention and visions of Paladins and Monks dancing in my head I rolled nothing higher than an 11.
I played a suicidally brave fighter. Rolled up a new character the next night.
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I read 18/18/18/17/17/17 and just laughed and laughed.it CAN happen... in rolled stats. Happened to me once.I used to 'warm up' my dice before rolling stats. Then I'd say, "Okay ready to rock." Once when warming up the dice my first roll was 17 and second was 18. I said, "Ok ready to rock" my DM paid attention and visions of Paladins and Monks dancing in my head I rolled nothing higher than an 11.
I played a suicidally brave fighter. Rolled up a new character the next night.
Yay rolling stats!
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Hey guys. I told 5 people we will be playing the We Be Goblin module and they got quite excited. One can't make it because of work but they are quite happy to be playing as their enemy.
The players just want to have fun and kill stuff with a little Role Playing. Most of them want to kill things more than RP so I might give a little less experiance and have some extra encounters. Maybe they come across some runaway teenagers from sandpoint trying to find a camp. That'll give a little RP to see if the goblins capture the kids and bring them back or just kill them.
I really don't want my game to have overpowered stats. Example: Teifling bloodrager with oversized limbs, enlarge person, 26 strength and vital strike somehow doing 12D8+21+Shocking Burst and Speed weapon enchantments.
It's not fun when one person is extremely overpowered while another has 18/16/14/12/10 stats. 18/18/18/17/17/17 is crazy!
Good work. Yes, the main thing is making sure all the players are having fun, which is hard to do if one overshadows the others.
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Best way is to play a one-shot, or some short linked modules, rather than diving into a full AP.
Given the last iteration of the group fell apart in PvP, you need to be very sure the new group can work well together, over a period of months, before committing yourself to that much expense, time and prep.
If you find out the group is still disfunctional, while playing a one-shot or short series, you haven't lost as much time and effort, and you don't have the problem of a half-played chapter 1 of a six-issue set.
It's hard to get a new group (with some old members involved) interested in starting a scenario they already half-played, and know the spoilers to.
I'm playing in a 15 point game, and my half-orc inquisitor 2 has 13/14/12/10/16/10 stats. Not too shabby. It's a real fun game, too!
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Once upon a time, I actually rolled 6 18s, with the 4d6 method.
In front of my group.
In theory? It was FRICKIN AMAZING.
In practice? It wasn't actually that big of a deal. The stats my character cared about were high (like they would be anyway) and the other stats being high really just guaranteed that I wouldn't be locked out of feat choices. Not much else.
I read 18/18/18/17/17/17 and just laughed and laughed.it CAN happen... in rolled stats. Happened to me once.
My all time highest was close to that... rolled in full witness of the whole group. 18/18/18/17/17/15. That character was god-mode and absurd... It was funny for a couple sessions, but got old quickly, and boring eventually… and caused some minor group balance issues. Overall, a poor character experience. So I retired him.
That was the last time I played in a game that rolled stats. I've advocated in every group I've been in since: Point buy is the way to go.
I read 18/18/18/17/17/17 and just laughed and laughed.it CAN happen... in rolled stats. Happened to me once.My all time highest was close to that... rolled in full witness of the whole group. 18/18/18/17/17/15. That character was god-mode and absurd... It was funny for a couple sessions, but got old quickly, and boring eventually… and caused some minor group balance issues. Overall, a poor character experience. So I retired him.
That was the last time I played in a game that rolled stats. I've advocated in every group I've been in since: Point buy is the way to go.
There is a tradition of rolling for stats thought isn't there? A sense of bringing forth your character from the primaeval chaos of chance and circumstance. Since starting PFS I've always thought that point buy is really fair, and ensures your character design doesn't fall at the first hurdle, but rolling gives you inspiration and also tells a story - it helps character development.
Noted, not all players need such aid to make a character, and not all players WANT to 'deal' with unwanted stats, but there is a place for it...
Next time I GM a game, I'm going point buy, just to see how it changes the player dynamic - and make it easier for me!
Snorter, don't hold your breath on that one!
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If you like the idea of rolling stats, maybe it could benefit from a handicap system?
You all know who are the most rules-savvy players in your group, the ones who get the MVP award, no matter what class they play.
Let the least experienced, least rules-savvy players take first pick from the pool of stats, and the most experienced pick last. Maybe roll a couple more sets than players, so no-one gets stuck with a truly hopeless statline?
If you like the idea of rolling stats, maybe it could benefit from a handicap system?
You all know who are the most rules-savvy players in your group, the ones who get the MVP award, no matter what class they play.
Let the least experienced, least rules-savvy players take first pick from the pool of stats, and the most experienced pick last. Maybe roll a couple more sets than players, so no-one gets stuck with a truly hopeless statline?
Ah, but who decides the pecking order - it would take a very self-aware group to accept how they've been ordered. I wouldn't know how to do it our group and I'm pretty self-aware I hope!
Plus, I'm naff at wizards. Always want to go down the blaster route, don't ask me why...
As a new gm i'd strongly advocate against allowing an overly high stat array. The game functions best when primary stats are between 15 and 17 (after racial modifiers). This is the target you want, you can do this through a 15 point buy (where going over 17 really hurts) or you can do it by simply enforcing a hard cap. For instnace in my game, we do 25 point buy but no stat over 17 after racial mods. That lets people have well rounded characters if they want, but doesnt throw off the game's math.
Once upon a time, I actually rolled 6 18s, with the 4d6 method.
In front of my group.In theory? It was FRICKIN AMAZING.
In practice? It wasn't actually that big of a deal. The stats my character cared about were high (like they would be anyway) and the other stats being high really just guaranteed that I wouldn't be locked out of feat choices. Not much else.
That's been my experience as well. "Amazing" stats don't seem to matter a whole lot, just opens up feat choices and build options.
Especially some classes, like monk and rogue, really need more than a 15 pt buy to be effective. Even more so in groups with low optimization.
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Ah, but who decides the pecking order - it would take a very self-aware group to accept how they've been ordered. I wouldn't know how to do it our group and I'm pretty self-aware I hope!
Well, obviously you'd go last.
John is a sleeper/dark horse, who comes up with some powerful stuff, but I've heard him argue for self-nerfing enough times to let his suggestions through.Lee thinks he knows it all, but doesn't.
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PvP is to be avoided for whatever reason. I don't care if it's your character concept or if it makes sense to do it, there's enough ideas out there that don't involve doing that. If your party is evil, make an evil character and save that Paladin concept for another game. (although Lawful evil is about the only evil alignment really suited for PC groups that don't devolve into stealing and murdering each other)
High stats matter most in a low level campaign, they tend to balance out if you can make it past level 12. Giving someone enough points in point buy to have an 18 before racial modifiers without completely gutting their other stats can go a long way in keeping most players happy.In my experience if a player will cheat on their stat rolls, they'll cheat on all their rolls so stats are a moot point anyway. If you like the randomness of stat rolling but the control of point buy, pick a lower point buy and add 1d8 or so (15-20 point buy +1d8 isn't so bad)and if you don't trust the players you can write down the number they rolled.
Let people have high stats if it's so important to them...for a lot of people playing the game is about escaping mediocrity. Look at most fantasy novels, it's rare when people want to be the squire or torch bearer rather then the Knight or beautiful Princess.
I hear all this high stat hate and how it makes people power gamers. So? It's a game folks, if they can power game and have fun without pooping on everyone else's fun, let them. Go take your RP > Combat characters high-horse and ride off in to the sunset. Your idea of fun is just as valid as theirs.
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As a new gm i'd strongly advocate against allowing an overly high stat array. The game functions best when primary stats are between 15 and 17 (after racial modifiers). This is the target you want, you can do this through a 15 point buy (where going over 17 really hurts) or you can do it by simply enforcing a hard cap. For instnace in my game, we do 25 point buy but no stat over 17 after racial mods. That lets people have well rounded characters if they want, but doesnt throw off the game's math.
I strongly disagree.
I apologize, but seeing "throw off the games math" and "the game functions best" made me angry. It struck me as conceited, like you have the best notion for how the Pathfinder is run. Again, sorry.
For a new DM, I feel you shouldn't limit the players, let them make what they like using RAW. If you start the game with some nerfed/hombrew limited stat option you won't get to see what players can do and may gain a warped sense of what is overpowered. I'm not saying 30 point buy or anything, just don't go out of your way to cripple players. Once you get a better idea of the people you're playing with, then you can make appropriate changes. Ask your players to be forgiving initially and for the most part they will. I know there will be moments of frustration on both sides but that will fade as you gain experience. Every group is different and what they enjoy will be different. There's no set way to do it.
What you need to worry about is keeping the players entertained and how you do that varies depending on your group. Players will constantly do things a DM would never consider and being able to flow with that will help a ton. Try not to have a set story, have an outline and possibilities where certain things can happen multiple ways so you aren't wasting effort coming up with things the players will never encounter.
When I think of point buy, and how many points should be given out, I think about how many 14 do I want the average PC to have. Basically, you get one 14 per 5 points. So, in a 15 point game, you're going to have PCs that are 14, 14, 14, 10, 10, 10 before racial adjustments. Obviously, some are going to splurge and trade two 14s for a 16 and 10, or raid the 10s to 7s to get 4 more points, or split a 14 and 10 for a 12 and 13, etc. etc.
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Point buy is the devil and creates more problems than it fixes.
Rolling stats only causes problems if someone gets really good stats and someone else at the table has a problem with it.
Stat arrays are the only fair way to ensure balance between the players power levels.
If you are looking to just have fun, then worrying about how to generate stats is a bad way to start. You will find that overpowered characters really aren't that overpowered in actual practice of the game, as most of the time players are going to maximize their strengths anyway, and that is the most common thing the player will be doing. An overpowered character by point buy standards might have a niche ability to make a random skill check outside of the norm or an ability score high enough for some extra utility spells, but those hardly break the game and for the most part are what players actually want for their characters.
Myself, for my group I allow a generation system that is 3d6 replace lowest roll with a 6. Stats are above average, but never too low that a player deems the character unplayable.
If you are taking over as DM and are forcing the players to adhere to a game style they do not like, then you may want to reconsider taking over as DM.
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For a new GM, I would recommend sticking with either stat arrays or a fairly standard point buy. If you want to err on the high side, 20 points for SAD classes (single attribute dependent) and 25 for MAD classes (multiple attribute dependent) generally work out to versatile, slightly powerful, and enjoyable PCs. I'd also recommend sticking with a published adventure like Crypt of the Everflame or some such.
The reason I suggest this (as opposed to anything goes) is you'll be able to spend more time focusing on how to run the game and tell the story rather than making more work for yourself bumping up the difficulty of each encounter. Furthermore, I'd also start the PCs at a fairly low level (i.e. 1st or 2nd) because it's easier to ramp-up your skills at dealing with versatile PCs if you're able to follow along as they improve over time.
As for the published adventure? Often times, if you can work thru the steps of how someone who is knowledgeable does something, you can pick up on their good habits and get a feel for why they have made the choices they have. In addition, with your players knowing you are running published material, that will give you some backup on them understanding that you aren't just making stuff up to grief them. You also won't feel as much temptation to keep a Cool Bad Guy™ that you created alive. (Yes, learning that the GM must "lose" most every fight for the PCs' story to continue is part of the learning process.) Oh, and don't worry, there will still be plenty of opportunities to learn how to improvise encounters that aren't in-the-book. ;)
Once your experience as a GM has grown and you have the basics down pat (i.e. combat runs smoothly, you're able to improvise encounters, there's no players-vs-GM attitudes festering), then that would be a good time to branch out. At that point, you might try creating your own adventure, allowing them to redo their point buys with a larger pool, etc.
This is the same approach that I took when one of my own players decided to try his hand at GMing and it worked pretty well.
As for when rules disagreements come up? Common cases for us were when someone would try to use a combat maneuver or skill that the new GM didn't yet know how to adjudicate. While many groups will simply use "GM fiat" and then look it up later, we took the tack of saying, "Well it's a learning experience right? Let's learn!" So we'd pause the game for a bit, look-it-up, and ensure everyone understood how that action would be adjudicated. If that meant a "good plan" suddenly had a giant, gaping pitfall revealed it it then no biggie — with everyone fully informed we'd just let them reconsider and declare a new action.
The important thing is for both the players and GM to know that the others are acting in good faith.
Anyway, just my 2¢...
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Okay, so first off, kudos for leaving your old GM. Second, speaking from a GM's position, I usually make the encounters somewhat challenging, but I make it worth it. Make them work for the good loot, it shouldn't come easy. Start at a low level to let them progressively gain power, and use about a 20 point buy. The reason I say 20 is because it'll be a slightly easier transition than 15, which is already relatively powerful.
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I think point buy is wonderful. I hate rolling stats whether I am the best, the worst or average. I like envisioning characters slowly and taking time to learn the rules for what I picture them doing. Rolling stats is a very jarring interruption to that. There are no benefits to me other than some higher scores in things I didn't picture high. The detrimental effects of not being able to adjust my stats to qualify for the things I picture my character doing are helping nobody. Unless you take pleasure in players misery why would you do that. I don't want to hear any arguments about how it is more realistic. It is unrealistic in the extreme that the actors would choose to play bit parts over leads. Players do not need to be punished by random chance before the game even starts, that happens by design through dice rolls in the game.
The OP wants to run a game with power gaming children? Why does the OP think he has to run cookie cutter NPCs right out of the book? Rule number one at the gaming table. What ever the players come up with the GM can do better.
Start hitting them with encounters well above their CR.
I think it would be fine to mix point buy and rolled stats, if you had the caveat that people had to roll all of their stats with everyone watching.
Some people don't like point buy, and that's fine.
Some people don't like rolling stats, and that's also fine.
You could also make arrays available. It really doesn't matter, as long as everyone is having fun.
We've done games where you could choose to roll or choose a point buy. Works fine when you all get along and trust your fellow players.
If you do not get along, and do not trust your fellow players, no amount of rules based fixes is going to help your game. Find new people to play with.
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As a new gm i'd strongly advocate against allowing an overly high stat array. The game functions best when primary stats are between 15 and 17 (after racial modifiers). This is the target you want, you can do this through a 15 point buy (where going over 17 really hurts) or you can do it by simply enforcing a hard cap. For instnace in my game, we do 25 point buy but no stat over 17 after racial mods. That lets people have well rounded characters if they want, but doesnt throw off the game's math.
I strongly disagree.
I apologize, but seeing "throw off the games math" and "the game functions best" made me angry. It struck me as conceited, like you have the best notion for how the Pathfinder is run. Again, sorry.
Paizo's flagship product, the adventure paths are balanced around a 15 point buy. Multiple staff members have mentioned this on numbers occasions. I am sorry if that makes you angry. 15 point buy is the baseline. Where is the conceit in saying that?
15 points buy makes it very costly to exceed a 17, even with a racial bonus. Prominent npcs are built primarily using the elite array, in which the highest stat is a 15 prior to racial mods. This isnt me declaring the math is such, this is the rulebooks and adventure paths saying it is so.
For a new DM, I feel you shouldn't limit the players, let them make what they like using RAW. If you start the game with some nerfed/hombrew limited stat option you won't get to see what players can do and may gain a warped sense of what is overpowered. I'm not saying 30 point buy or anything, just don't go out of your way to cripple players. Once you get a better idea of the people you're playing with, then you can make appropriate changes. Ask your players to be forgiving initially and for the most part they will. I know there will be moments of frustration on both sides but that will fade as you gain experience. Every group is different and what they enjoy will be different. There's no set way to do it.
How exacltly is a 25 point buy going out of my way to limit players? It allows allows multiability score dependant concepts to function effectively, while limiting the advantage of single ability score classes and concepts. Ofcourse there is no set way to do it, but I am offering my recommendation. Thats what advice means. I didnt say you MUST do this. I said this works for me, I recommend it.
And I completely disagree that new dms shouldnt limit players. If anything the opposite is true. You should be more permissive as you gain experience, but start fairly restrictive, because a new gm does not have the experience to fall back on to manage a game that is on a higher power level.
What you need to worry about is keeping the players entertained and how you do that varies depending on your group. Players will constantly do things a DM would never consider and being able to flow with that will help a ton. Try not to have a set story, have an outline and possibilities where certain things can happen multiple ways so you aren't wasting effort coming up with things the players will never encounter.
See how you offered advice here? I dont think anyone reading this believes you think the only way to run a game is to not have a set story... but simply your recommendation. There are other options, such as I dont know, using an adventure path.
PvP is to be avoided for whatever reason. I don't care if it's your character concept or if it makes sense to do it, there's enough ideas out there that don't involve doing that.
"the game functions best" made me angry. It struck me as conceited, like you have the best notion for how the Pathfinder is run.
Pot, Kettle ... Kettle, Pot.
I think it would be fine to mix point buy and rolled stats, if you had the caveat that people had to roll all of their stats with everyone watching.
Some people don't like point buy, and that's fine.
Some people don't like rolling stats, and that's also fine.
You could also make arrays available. It really doesn't matter, as long as everyone is having fun.
We've done games where you could choose to roll or choose a point buy. Works fine when you all get along and trust your fellow players.
If you do not get along, and do not trust your fellow players, no amount of rules based fixes is going to help your game. Find new people to play with.
This guy gets it.
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I personally just find the uncompromising "my way or the highway" to be selfish, immature and generally irresponsible. Which is how a lot of people have phrased their advice.Iron, your missing the point. No one is ordering the OP to do what we say. We're giving our advice. Some of us see spoiled players, and that's how we'd handle it. Get off your high horse.
Now you might handle it differently. Cool, throw your advice out here. But in my opinion when you have a really toxic group, having someone step up and make the hard decision usually works out better then someone who acts wishywashy. This way when your expectations are clear, the group can have fun, which it sounds like it wasn't having prior.
How other people play at other tables is largely irrelevant.except, when the OP is specifically asking for advice.
I am finding that most are just looking at this in a bubble. They are coming out of a fractured group in which they were the victims. the DM was a part of the problem...and the players are potentially going to see that things may not have changed for the better.
Letting them keep their stats is minimal. they were having fun with them and want to get to play them. Let them.
TOZ gave really good advice so that the players get what they want and the DM gets to not to have to do a stupid amount of work to gear up to meet the challenges of the PCs.
Throw underpowered challenges at them...as they see how much of a non-challenge the game is with builds like that, they will grow bored and probably be willing to start over with normal builds.
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I think point buy is wonderful. I hate rolling stats whether I am the best, the worst or average. I like envisioning characters slowly and taking time to learn the rules for what I picture them doing. Rolling stats is a very jarring interruption to that. There are no benefits to me other than some higher scores in things I didn't picture high. The detrimental effects of not being able to adjust my stats to qualify for the things I picture my character doing are helping nobody. Unless you take pleasure in players misery why would you do that. I don't want to hear any arguments about how it is more realistic. It is unrealistic in the extreme that the actors would choose to play bit parts over leads. Players do not need to be punished by random chance before the game even starts, that happens by design through dice rolls in the game.
So point-buy allows you to make the characters you visualise without being hampered by rolled scores? What if the character I visualise has stats that don't exactly add up to the given point-buy? I have to adjust every single character concept to fit an arbitrary total. This is not 'freedom' compared to the tyranny of rolling; it's just another kind of tyranny.
How character creation in RPGs worked from the beginning of the hobby was: roll scores, consider possibilities, use rolled scores as the basis of your creative process. This is not an objectively better or worse way to create characters. What makes it better or worse are other things, like MAD versus SAD classes, level playing fields, etc.
So point-buy allows you to make the characters you visualize without being hampered by rolled scores? What if the character I visualize has stats that don't exactly add up to the given point-buy? I have to adjust every single character concept to fit an arbitrary total. This is not 'freedom' compared to the tyranny of rolling; it's just another kind of tyranny.How character creation in RPGs worked from the beginning of the hobby was: roll scores, consider possibilities, use rolled scores as the basis of your creative process. This is not an objectively better or worse way to create characters. What makes it better or worse are other things, like MAD versus SAD classes, level playing fields, etc.
I can deal with rolled stats I just don't like them. I remember 2nd edition with something like horror over the number of characters that died randomly in the first adventure. I have seen people told to play the 3 constitution character or see you next weekend. We collectively stopped playing that game for other systems for four years because of this. We came back in 3rd edition because the game had evolved to the point where we could make the characters we envisioned.
I like point buy because it lets the GM set the tone of the campaign. If I am envisioning a character that is stronger than I can make in that point buy I know ahead of time it either needs to be toned down or used in a more appropriate game. Rolling stats and then giving the players a week to think is much nicer than getting everyone together to make characters for a few hours, starting with dice rolls and expecting people to be mostly done by the end. That drives me berzerk. I try to prepare as much as possible because I don't want to get stuck with a poorly thought out character in a game I would have otherwise enjoyed.
Well we played "We Be Goblins" module and they absolutely loved it. One had to be set straight when he tried to steal from a PC when in combat but he knows I won't play that way.
Overall, they loved the challenge it offered with subpar players compared to the 2859 strength modifiers.
Brill! That's great news. I haven't played that one, but did play the sequel. Hopefully you enjoyed it too? I'd recommend the second one (We Be Goblins Too).
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So point-buy allows you to make the characters you visualize without being hampered by rolled scores? What if the character I visualize has stats that don't exactly add up to the given point-buy? I have to adjust every single character concept to fit an arbitrary total. This is not 'freedom' compared to the tyranny of rolling; it's just another kind of tyranny.How character creation in RPGs worked from the beginning of the hobby was: roll scores, consider possibilities, use rolled scores as the basis of your creative process. This is not an objectively better or worse way to create characters. What makes it better or worse are other things, like MAD versus SAD classes, level playing fields, etc.
I can deal with rolled stats I just don't like them. I remember 2nd edition with something like horror over the number of characters that died randomly in the first adventure. I have seen people told to play the 3 constitution character or see you next weekend. We collectively stopped playing that game for other systems for four years because of this. We came back in 3rd edition because the game had evolved to the point where we could make the characters we envisioned.
I like point buy because it lets the GM set the tone of the campaign. If I am envisioning a character that is stronger than I can make in that point buy I know ahead of time it either needs to be toned down or used in a more appropriate game. Rolling stats and then giving the players a week to think is much nicer than getting everyone together to make characters for a few hours, starting with dice rolls and expecting people to be mostly done by the end. That drives me berzerk. I try to prepare as much as possible because I don't want to get stuck with a poorly thought out character in a game I would have otherwise enjoyed.
I agree with this. I like a lot of time to think about my characters.
Just over a year ago I rolled up a hero for the Icons superhero game. I stared at the stats and powers I rolled, and was in despair for two weeks. My only superpower is that I'm immortal? In a game where we don't expect to die anyway? And my power must be from training or equipment because of the background I rolled?
I got hit with inspiration after those two weeks, spent a month thinking about him before I played him, continued to think about his life and what he must be like for over a year, and now I play a converted version of him in the Marvel Heroic RPG, and I enjoy it immensely. He's one of the best characters I've ever made in any system.
Two things to note: if I had to play the character I rolled on the same day I rolled, he wouldn't be anywhere near as cool or well-thought-out. Also, if I hadn't have had to roll those powers and abilities, I'd never have been inspired to think of him. There's no way I'd've chosen that lot with a free choice instead of a random set.
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PvP is to be avoided for whatever reason. I don't care if it's your character concept or if it makes sense to do it, there's enough ideas out there that don't involve doing that."the game functions best" made me angry. It struck me as conceited, like you have the best notion for how the Pathfinder is run.Pot, Kettle ... Kettle, Pot.
Ugh, yeah...you're right. I'll try to work on that.
Tell them you will be GMing "real Pathfinder", not that thing that was happening before - so start at 1st level, either 15 point or best 3 of 4d6 (I like in order, then swap any pair). Either Core Rulebook only,or whatever sources you are completely comfortable with (CRG + APG is good for some spice). Maybe run a solid Adventure Path, Runelords hardback is great if they've not played it.
This group is highly dysfunctional and needs to detox. The best way to do this is to (a) establish your authority, firm but fair - so stick close to RAW and (b) not to engage with their former bad habits, but start afresh, keeping everything as clean as possible. You can always go wahoo again later.
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Tell them you will be GMing "real Pathfinder", not that thing that was happening before - so start at 1st level, either 15 point or best 3 of 4d6 (I like in order, then swap any pair). Either Core Rulebook only,or whatever sources you are completely comfortable with (CRG + APG is good for some spice). Maybe run a solid Adventure Path, Runelords hardback is great if they've not played it.
This group is highly dysfunctional and needs to detox. The best way to do this is to (a) establish your authority, firm but fair - so stick close to RAW and (b) not to engage with their former bad habits, but start afresh, keeping everything as clean as possible. You can always go wahoo again later.
they could do a 20 or even 25 point buy and be far more fair and stable without making them feel as weak as 15 point