Life Stealer

Karl Hammarhand's page

304 posts (397 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 4 aliases.


RSS

1 to 50 of 304 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | next > last >>

Would you be open to a demon that was a master of qigong and swordplay who began to dabble in 'negative' qigong and began using his (demon gained) knowledge to drain the chi from his opponents gradually transforming himself into a nearly immortal creature? He could manipulate chi, was a consummate swordsman and martial artist and dabbled in demonology and evil sorcery. His name was Xima Tan. He lived for hundreds of years amassing a vast fortune, power, and an army that included many demons. One day he fought a young man who used techniques that should only work against demons against him. He found to his dismay that the techniques worked just fine against him. Eventually his own demon lieutenants seeing his weakness turned against him and he was forced into hell where he was tormented for over a thousand years. As an added disgrace, his own family disowned him vowing that should he ever be reborn he would never be reborn as a true civilized human a subject of the 'Middle Kingdom' but some kind of hairy barbarian unable to appreciate the finer things in life that he once knew but squandered for evil power.

During the seemingly unending torment a being appeared and the actual demons fled leaving only the souls in torment. Xima Tan did not know how or why the demons fled this but during his time in hell, Xima tan determined that if there were a way to make amends for the evil he had done he would do so. The being declared that Tan was free from his prison and rather than ascend to the celestial bliss with the other prisoners, he chose to return the mortal coil. At first he wished to reincarnate with his own family but finding that impossible he was reborn as a Tocharian.

Tantanma was born a gifted young man with fire in his eyes and a natural at external kung-fu. He joined a Buddhist monastery at a young age with the full support of his family. Later some strange men came through they called themselves 'Christians'. In a strange way Tantanma was unable to express he recognized them as the followers of the being that freed his spirit without knowing how or why. He became a follower of this 'Christ'. His brothers in the monastery were somewhat dismayed but not the older wiser heads who saw the way to the divine in different paths.

Tantanma would be drawn to the areas in his former life where he caused pain and strife and would be fighting to right his former evil deeds though they were centuries ago some people still suffered the after effects his evil was so foul. As a Tocharian he would be an oddity in the Middle Kingdom but not entirely unknown. Tall, blond hair with red highlights and piercing green eyes he is a master of the unarmed combat and the spear his favorite weapon. He is a disciple of the Shaolin temple and a paladin/monk.

I was thinking that perhaps one of his former demon servants might recognize him and try to tempt him back into the darker arts as he would make a powerful weapon if he 'went bad' again.


Interested in the campaign. Thinking of a shaolin paladin type who was once a hellknight type of oni/demon. I'll have more tomorrow.


Still room for my paladin/monk or ranger/monk guy? I can have fluff to you tomorrow. I am still interested but have been a bit busy rl.


I am interested. Is the world our world except with actual different species? Is it an alternate history? Sounds different and intriguing. I am thinking of a monk, ranger, or paladin/ranger type. Something along those lines.

If it is our world, I would be interested if I could use my actual koryu ryu (traditional martial arts system) as the basis of my character's skills (just to build from).


Ok haven't read the whole thread yet. Just dropping in to let everyone know I'm still here. Are we going with 1st or 2nd level?


DM Grimmy wrote:

@Karl Hammarhand Finally back at home with my sourcebook, interesting coincidence, Arden has a son.

Quote:

Arn, Lesser God of the Sun

Alignment: Neutral Good
Domains: Sun, Healing, Good
Symbol: Radiant half circle of bronze, representing
the sun
Garb: Yellow and white robes
Favored Weapons: Bronze tipped staff (Quarter-
staff)
Form of Worship and Holidays: Disrobing at sunrise. Summer solstice.
Typical Worshippers: Celestials. Good-aligned arcanists.

Known to be the son of Vionir and commonly believed to be the son of Arden, Arn is referred to as the herald of light. He serves as Vionir’s messenger and has had many cults throughout the ages who worship him as their chief deity. His followers constantly seek to recover the remains of Arden, hoping to fully restore his godhood and reestablish the triumvirate of light and cast down the shadows of evil forever.

Looks like Arden really is dead, but he has a son and a wife.

Quote:


Vionir, Goddess of Light
Alignment: Lawful Good
Domains: Good, Healing, Sun
Symbol: Stylized solar disk with wavy arms.
Garb: White satin robes
Favored Weapons: Spear
Form of Worship and Holidays: Worshippers fast
during every new moon and offer gifts to the temple on both solstices.
Typical Worshippers: Good-aligned arcanists and celestials
Mother of Arn the Sun Lord, Vionir is popular among commoners and farmers. As with her son she is considered the successor to Arden, whom some believe was her husband before his destruction by Tsathogga. Vionir’s priesthood is vehemently opposed to the Violet Brotherhood whom they seek to expose at every op- portunity. Worshippers also loathe undead and destroy them whenever possible.

Works perfectly with my backstory


How's thjs Arden showed favor to Cian early everyone was thrilled but the Tuatha only keep their religious lore orally passed down by recited and sung lore. Cian lacked the memory and reluctantly the priests realized he was not the cleric/teacher everyone was hoping for but xomething different.


DM Grimmy wrote:

Yeah of course, thats what I meant, all the worship could be just as you described it, Arden just wouldn't be granting any powers to any classed NPC's, it would just be you.

The reason I'm reluctant with Mitra is I really use that faith to contrast with the declining faiths of Thyr and Muir that produced great heroes in the last age. I paint Mitra as the lawful stupid establishment religion who think there's no need for heroics with all the ancient evils vanquished.

Ill see what else I've got when I get home where my siurcebook is.

No hurry.


DM Grimmy wrote:
Karl Hammarhand wrote:
DM Grimmy wrote:

@Karl Hammarhand I haven't forgotten your questions, I am just struggling to get my head around the theology. It might be clearer to me tomorrow when I'm less tired. It is the monotheism that is throwing me for a loop. How committed are you to that angle? If very, I will keep mulling it over, but if it is something you aren't too attached to, I could find a place for your deity much more easily without the monotheistic component.

Re: Hewing Spear, it will be an existing weapons unmodified stats, simply reskinned. If not halberd, something else which deals piercing and slashing damage. Halberd still seems like a close match, since you want to wield a shield and don't want reach.

As for your warning about pathfinder mechanics familiarity I would not be too concerned at all about that. I will elaborate later.

Halbred it is, as for religion, they believe there are other gods. They simply do not worship them. They do venerate angels and saints that have served their god or who have a lived a life worthy of veneration.

OTOH other good gods could be 'demoted' in their minds to something of the status of saints. Beings that might be worthy of respect but not actual worship.

What about Arden? He is a sun-god widely believed to be dead and no longer worshiped. They gave him an egyptian flavor associated with RA but we could ditch that. Only thing is, he lost the Sun domaibn from his portfolio to Mitra, so he has no living actual clerics that he is granting powers to. You would be the only living proof that he is not dead, the first individual in centuries being granted actual divine powers from Arden. But you would have zero factional support in terms of restorative magic and raise dead.

There might be other good options I haven't uploaded yet, I meant to do it yesterday but I couldn't get to my computer.

Arden could work but I see Cian as part of a regular religious tradition. Can there be priests of Arden amongst the Tuatha, even if they do not have any 'clerical' magical power? A variant of Mitra could work without too much reskinning. There are plenty of Christian sects outside the Roman Catholic church.


Damien "Wet" Winters wrote:
@Karl - So they're basically the same as any other gods followers then? Well that clears up the monotheism thing. Sounds cool :)

Mostly, although the trappings will look like a mishmash of Arthurian legend, Celtic druidism (the real thing not 'game' druid) and early medieval Christianity. Of course there is not enough of the tribe to fill a modern high school so I imagine their impact on the world will be less than earth-shattering.


DM Grimmy wrote:

@Karl Hammarhand I haven't forgotten your questions, I am just struggling to get my head around the theology. It might be clearer to me tomorrow when I'm less tired. It is the monotheism that is throwing me for a loop. How committed are you to that angle? If very, I will keep mulling it over, but if it is something you aren't too attached to, I could find a place for your deity much more easily without the monotheistic component.

Re: Hewing Spear, it will be an existing weapons unmodified stats, simply reskinned. If not halberd, something else which deals piercing and slashing damage. Halberd still seems like a close match, since you want to wield a shield and don't want reach.

As for your warning about pathfinder mechanics familiarity I would not be too concerned at all about that. I will elaborate later.

Halbred it is, as for religion, they believe there are other gods. They simply do not worship them. They do venerate angels and saints that have served their god or who have a lived a life worthy of veneration.

OTOH other good gods could be 'demoted' in their minds to something of the status of saints. Beings that might be worthy of respect but not actual worship.


Karl Chillstrike wrote:
Preach it.

Well I am supposed to be taking the place of the cleric. "Today our guest Pastor will be Cian MacLir I believe his sermon is on the benefits of a spear over a sword or ax."


No like I said I'd choose saving a life over treasure that kind of thing. Nothing that disrupts the game or kills the group. I do not and never have like party disruption PvP stuff or the crud some thieves pulled because 'I'm chaotic neutral and it's in character'.

Besides I'm lawful good not lawful stupid even if it is a 'dump stat'. Don't worry. Good teams work together and good partners are worth their weight in mithril.


Karl Chillstrike wrote:

You don't literally mean when nixon was in office do you? Cause I thought dnd wasn't even out until 75.

I like it when players play the character, not the game. It is role playing after all. But let's try to avoid death by role play. That has happened a few times to me and it's been a tpk each time.

One time was in the start of age of worms. We had finally done the first dungeon, and had a safe house when one of the characters decided to get info from the local crime by offering to share information. It was going well, when another character, a rogue, decided to sneak in and listen. One botched roll stealth roll and a guard dog later, the boss decided the first character was conning him and so killed him, then ordered his goons to get the rogue. He fled in a direct line to our safe house.

One big fight later we were all cactus. End of campaign, and we were just 2nd level. When we asked why he ran STRAIGHT BACK TO THE SAFE HOUSE the rogue said, well, I have an wisdom of 8 and t

You know I have lost my point. Oh well enjoy the above story.

oh wait...role play good. But not if it ends the campaign.

Sorry meant Ford Nixon resigned the year or so before I got the game. Carter had won be wasn't in office yet. I asked for more Polish Hussars, I needed more. You can never have too many winged Hussars. My mom decided to get me interested in a 'cheaper' hobby so taking the advice of the shop owner she bought these little books and funny dice. The rest is history. You'd think I'd remember when Nixon resigned.


Just a warning to all. Although I have roleplayed since Nixon was in office and have played many systems my exposure to Pathfinder is limited. I am likely to make mistakes with rules or be unaware of all the options that are open to me. Please point them out. I've never learned anything without making mistakes. All help is gratefully appreciated.

I am also going to try filling in for our missing cleric slot. I know we'll be missing him more as I muddle through so again if there's any obvious action I should know please tell me ic or ooc as appropriate. No criticism/help will be ignored or rejected out of hand. I am excited get going with you all.

Another warning, I take my roleplaying seriously meaning my flawed 'human' character will occasionally do things that make sense ic but are not 'optimal' actions. I do not mean he'll be disruptive or a jackass or steal from party members or go PvP or be religiously intollerant or argue ic or ooc. What it means is that I play him like a real person and his motivations are as such. Save the child or drop the 'Teeth of Gwalur'? The gems go over the side every time (for this paladin, my rogue characters on the other hand...). Not to say my play style is the only one or the best just that it is mine and I don't want misunderstandings or hurt feelings between players.

Now you read that right my paladin is not religiously intollerant or a prig. I know it goes against stereotype but this guy doesn't enforce morality at the point of his sword. He's God's soldier for sure but his god believes worship must be voluntary or it's worthless. Justice on the other hand and succorring the weak? Very much his job.


DM Grimmy wrote:
Its a very vivid picture you paint of these saints and everything, you were t kidding when you said you flesh out back stories ! What if we use an established god from the setting as your patron, and the mode of worship you described is peculiar to the place you are from?

Sure that works great. I have a history of the Tuathe de Danann and why Aasimar show up still in their bloodlines even though they voluntarily gave up most of their angelic powers long ago.

That would also include why their worship is variant. They view the established god as an aspect of the greater Creator. Other gods aren't false they simply have an inferior connection to the overarching creator or perhaps are an aspect the Tuatha cannot serve for some reason. A good god to use would be one the Tuatha de Danann could have been either rivals or servants of when they had their 'angelic' natures, especially a god of mercy, justice, truth, and goodness.

The god in question need not agree with the people entirely as to his or her relation to the creator. However any good god will believe he is worthy of worship on his own or he'd be a servant of a greater being. Demons and evil gods need not show that integrity of course.

So which of the gods do you think would fit best?


DM Grimmy wrote:

Ok well the pantheon they have feels like they just grabbed from various real world sources, there are only a few that feel like they really give the setting definition.

Whose pantheon?


So we have a barb, paladin, ninja, and staff magus. No cleric though. I'll work on something today and tomorrow.


DM Grimmy wrote:


If you are creating the religion thou, how will that work with your deity choice?

Couple ways I can go. The Christian paladins worshiped the creator through the intermediary of his Son. Since I did not see anything that really fit that I can use, I can create a religion from whole cloth including an undefined Creator with an intermediary that provided Salvation to our people through his own sacrifice. The religion would include angel servants of the Creator. I was thinking of using human saints and older spirits of nature as saints in the theology of the religion.

The other way is to create the religion and and you can determine that the intermediary is a near avatar of an existing god.

Either way he and his people do not need or feel they need big religious organizations or the help of other gods (saints that acknowledge the intermediary or Creator are considered helpers but not gods in their own right). Being monotheists (believing the intermediary is a son/part of the creator) they believe that other gods are simply lesser beings anyway and in error unless they acknowledge that there is something greater than themselves. All of their angels and saints serve the Creator or his Son and acknowledge that they are subordinate to the Creator and his Son.

They worship out of doors at sites hallowed by their Creator through his angels and saints. When they stop for the summer in 'Tara' they have a set place of worship that they use year after year.


Damien, I understand the attachment. The same positioning, bonuses and penalties are possible in a narrative form but it does require the trust and cooperation I wrote about.

I can go either way but I prefer for my combats to feel visceral, dirty, chaotic, and fluid. The less suspension of disbelief the more I can get immersed into the roleplaying. But I am completely comfortable with a more structured approach.


That's brings up another issue of what is OSR, combat. While many groups 35-40 years ago used miniatures few used them as more than general place holders and reference points.

More common table rules (because combat was more 'fluid') was to allow characters to attempt actions and moves that fit with the narration and flow of the situation. Most OSR combat did not move or feel like the battle chess that many Pathfinder games use. The characters were not set pieces for a strategy miniatures game but dramatic actors telling a story. Pbp lends itself to the dramatic action method of combat very well. However, I am aware of the issues involved and I know some players are emotionally attached to the set-piece gridded map battle.

I prefer a more narrative combat because I trust the players and GM to be looking to move the play forward and get into the feel of an organic fight. The next combat I get into in rl with movement grids will be the first and I can't think of many cinematic combats that where Aragorn or Robinhood hopped from square to square.


Wait the spear in 'Dragonslayer' fits the description. I knew there was a Western cinema example!


If I can just make my little community including our religion I will. I enjoy that kind of thing and it will look more like what I envision anyway. A hewing spear is a spear designed to be able to cut and thrust, it was called by various names in different places. The blade is typically broader and longer than a normal spear. It can be used one or two handed, or even thrown however that is rare because they were not disposable javelins. Cuthlain threw his iirc but his returned to his hand. Although I might be getting him confused with Lugh Long-hand

Imagine the scene between Hector and Achilles in 'Troy' and you'll get an idea of how it was used with a shield. I have a migraine so I may be forgetting but the only two-handed use examples I can remember are in Japanese, Chinese, and Korean cinema.

I would go for a longer spear for looks and 'feel' but I don't want to get into the whole 'reach' controversy. Properly it should be around 7 feet or so long with a blade 18" to 2' long. And don't forget the buttspike. Typically five inches or so with a conical but dull point used as a weighted bashing or 'poking' weapon. Not that RAW allows any of that it's just to give a 'visual'. The most common use of the buttspike was just to stand it up to free up your hands anyway.


I still say roll stats even if the others didn't we won't get 'miin-maxing' benefits/xresults. It'll be more random and feel OSR. Just reroll ones so we don't wind up with 'burdens' to the group. If we're starting out from scratch or a one shot no reason not too. I'd be willing to do a digest or share with another chronicler.

Looking to reskin a weapon to make a 'hewing spear' to fit the settiing maybe Halbred for two handed (minus the trip) or a 'trident' one handed. I'm looking for a 'Lord of the spear' like the Tuathe de Danann and Irish warriors.

Although I can live with buying stats. If we really need a cleric I could live with starting as a cleric for a level or two but not my first choice.


DM Grimmy wrote:

KH, I've been having people answer these questions. In your case I already know most of this but please at least respond about posting availability.

DM Grimmy wrote:

Here's the Survey I had people do for the last recruitment:

*What is your posting availability like? What do you like in terms of pace for PbP?

*How familiar are you with the setting? Have you run or played in Necromancer/FGG modules before?

*How many PbP do you currently participate in? Player or GM?

*What does "Old School" mean to you?

*Would you have still been interested in this campaign if it was CRB only? Why or why not?

For the most part there are no right or wrong answers to these questions. "I can only post once a week" is a wrong answer but that's the only one I can think of right now :p

Posting daily although I occasionally will be out of touch for a day or two. Say every two to three months.

No FGG games.

No pbp games currently.

Old school feels lower magic and no magic Costcos. Parties where every character shines.

I'm looking for a crb game so that works.

It's nearing 1am here so I'm hitting the hay.

Mitra sounds like the god for my man. I should say Mitra and local 'saints/archangels to hkeep the feel of Catholic Chtistianity. I haven't looked at the map but I'm looking for a community of horse/ranching oriented pastoralist/semi hunter gather types somewhere in a quiet corner. Maybe mountainous or hilly. Maybe semi-nomadic like the early Irish stories.


What's myth weavers?


Another thing to consider if we are looking for 'OSR' feel is random dice for stats.


I am thinking of an Aasimar Galahad type Paladin. He was raised simply in a rustic, deeply religious, Christian-type community, like rural Ireland in tone and feel (if there is such a place inside the map areas). In contrast to stereotype, I think I would like to keep his childhood pleasant and normal for his village and have him motivated by his sense of piety and duty to those in need.

I am thinking something like a long ago Tuatha de Danann type of bloodline for the people of the village that shows in their natural grace, physical beauty, and connection to the divine. Second sight, premonitions, striking features, or the occasionally more than naturally gifted child are accepted in this little group.

I am toying with which physical feature to display his 'otherly' nature with. I like Tolkien's idea for a spiritual aura that the gifted can see like his elves have but those without the sight see as 'the light in his eyes and the ring in his voice'. Something subtly but definitely different to the un-gifted eye.

Let me know if the community, character, and deity fit in the game background and I'll bang something out.


fictionfan wrote:

Trying to stop teleproting trade seems like an exercise in futility. They can teleport anywhere so ambush is problematic. Also the people that can teleport are high level and hard to take down in any case.

You do have to consider teleport from the governments perspective. It's impossible to tax and is perfect for smuggling. Maybe their are laws on the books that all teleportation counts as smuggling.

Instead of giving someone a hard time for maintaining a viable means of fast communication and transport governments would probably subsidize them. Sure they can tax them why not? Set up a bonded area in the teleport zone and go to it. Just give them a tax break for getting it there quicker.


Kain Darkwind wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
That said, the exact number of tons in the carry capacity seems irrelevant - I think this thread has proven fairly well that there is an untapped market for teleportation services for the shipping of goods.
And that said untapped market in no way threatens to abolish oversea shipping via boat.

Very true.


CalebTGordan wrote:

Extradimensional Spaces

Let us look at math then. Because we know both their weight limits and their cost we can figure out the item's individual price per pound.

Bags of Holding

Type I
Capacity: 250 pounds
Cost: 2,500 gp
Price per Pound: 10 gp per pound.

Type II
Capacity: 500 pounds
Cost: 5,000 gp
Price per Pound: 10 gp per pound

Type III
Capacity: 1,000 pounds
Cost: 7,400 gp
Price per Pound: 7.4 gp per pound

Type IV
Capacity: 1,500 pounds
Cost: 10,000
Price per Pound: 6.67 gp per pound.

Portable Hole
Capacity: 750 - 1000 pounds (Estimated based on the volume and comparing it to bags of holding.)
Cost: 20,000 gp
Price per Pound: 26.67 - 20 gp per pound.

As we can see, not very cost effective. They are items and thus the cost can be spread out over time so this isn't a huge issue. But it seems some people are missing a key fact in their arguments, and that is that ships and teleporters can both use these items effectively.

In fact, lets look at what we find when we have both the ship and a teleporting mastodon carry the maximum number of Type IV bags.

Method . . . . . Number of Bags
Ship . . . . . . 300,000 / 60 = 5,000, 5000 x 1,500 = 7,500,000 pounds carried
Mastodon . . . . 267,720 / 60 = 4,462, 4,462 x 1,500 = 6,693,00 pounds carried

@Karl

Not trying to be insulting or mean but I had a really, really hard time reading and understanding your argument. It could be me, as I do have a cold right now, but it was unclear and not well organized. As a result I apologize if it appears I misunderstood you and don't address your points clearly.

Unfortunately I feel as if you are reading into the results of the math what you want to read into it. If anything, the math shows that both ships and teleporting can be profitable. What I can't currently show with math are things like chances of loss through piracy, fees, tariffs, and other expenses, which you seem to make large assumptions about in your arguments. I will try to find what information...

Nope I read into it exactly what you wrote (I believe). The shipping via magic was near the same price to set up then much, much faster (and possibly cheaper on subsequent trips although I'll admit I have the flu so I am also having issues). If I am wrong, I apologize.

Yes sorry it was long and rambling. I was making several points. However, the main point and the most important was speed. Speed wins in shipping all else being equal. And the prices you quote are very nearly equal.

If Rome could have shipped all the grain from Egypt to Rome for slightly more cost it would have in a heartbeat. If merchants could have done the same they would have as well.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:
(Think on how unpopular the offhand demise of Tasha Yar was on TNG.)
So, given the popularity of Game of Thrones, I can assume that GRRM would never kill off major characters...

GRRM needs a serious editor. He's a good writer but quickly comes to hate his heroes. He actively kills everyone with a soupcon of decency and heroism as quickly as he can unless they're victims. He sure loves victims and villains. Heroes? Not so much.


Jaelithe wrote:

Considering how attached we get to literary characters whose creation with which we had nothing to do, is it really so surprising that one of our own devising becomes, for some, too near and dear to see killed arbitrarily or casually? Some players are not invested in their creations so emotionally, but others are, and don't enjoy the random brutality of sudden death, at least not without what they consider good reason. (Think on how unpopular the offhand demise of Tasha Yar was on TNG.) A play style in which the PCs have, to some extent, plot immunity, would not be valid—except that this is a role-playing game.

The key for any DM is to discern the risk level each player wants for his characters and employ it. It may vary from group to group, person to person ... or even week to week. Ain't the easiest job, but that's why DM's are paid ungodly amounts of ...

... well, that's why we're showered with praise and ...

... well, it's our job.

Not to go too far OT but think of what 'Tasha Yar' could have been. Denise Crosby was supposed to get the 'Deanna Troi' role. Roddenberry switched them before filming started. He always had a weakness for large chested women (other than his wife).


CalebTGordan wrote:
Mathius wrote:
Also your carrying capacity's are way to low. If he can bring 4 medium creatures he can bring 1 huge creature. A mastodon with +2 belt of str, a heavy lift belt and mule back chords cost 11k i think once you change around the slots to work on it. That think can carry 115 tons. If that is to exotic for your tastes use two advance horses with the same magic items. The two horses carry half as much and cost more to set up but will still be better then a ship.

Okay, lets look at this.

Mastadon cost: 2000 gp
Belt: 7000 gp (4000 Str belt + (2000 *1.5) heavy lift)
Muleback Cords: 1000
Teleport: 550
Total: 10,550

Wizard has bull's strength and ant haul.

Total Weight: 202,500

Price per pound: 0.052

The ship still wins.

However, a few changes to your suggestions:
Mastadon: 2000 gp
Ant haul, bull's strength, and teleport: 870
Muleback cords for both: 2000
Cost: 4870
Weight: 267,720

Price per pound: 0.018

Better than the ship in price per pound but we are still not at the 300k pounds the ship can carry.

Out of curiosity let's look at this another way. If the cargo on both ship and mastadon was purchased at 1 gp a pound and sold at 2 gp a pound what is the profit from the each sell?

Ship: (300,000 x 2) - (300,00 x 1.034) = 289,800
Mastadon: (267,720 x 2) - (267,720 x 1.018) = 262,901

If a single use of one is compared to the single use of another the ship still wins.

Yes you could do 30 teleportations in the time it takes 1 ship to do a shipment, but you would probably end up saturating a market in that time with 133 tons hitting market each day. You would also have to find 133 tons of goods to buy, which certainly takes more than a day to do.

If you followed the idea of using a mastadon, you would need to find one. They are very rare. An elephant is more common, but they have never been domesticated and are unreliable in the long term as a work force. They also only carry 172,800 pounds with all the methods used above (oh, and I added a masterwork backpack.) They need lots of space, other elephants to socialize with, and a great deal of food. Even if you were able to find the markets to sustain a teleport a day, you would need to make sure you have more than one elephant for the work. Otherwise you might have either an angry one or a dead one.

Meanwhile, the guy with the ship only has to pay for sailors and has all the time he needs to find good to buy and a place to sell them. He doesn't have to worry about saturating his market with longer periods of time between shipments, and sees a larger payout when the goods do sell.

Yes, many payouts are better than one, but only if you can sustain the many. As people keep presenting things with teleport, I am not convinced it is sustainable, or even completely possible. I can see a merchant wizard teleporting goods once to two times a month, but no more. Meaning it often isn't as profitable for ships and therefore not as likely for common merchants to use.

Thank you for making the case for magical transport so thoroughly. Elephants are not domesticated or useful in the workforce. Well while not strictly domesticated, they are very useful and until recent years maintained logging camps throughout Asia. They were used for thousands of years and the 'go to' beast of burden when they could be afforded and cared for (not everyone was capable) but when they were they were top choice for top weight.

Now to the ship 'only has a crew to pay'? Well that is certainly one opinion not true mind but an opinion. The ship still needs to pay docking, maintenance, pilots' fees, tariffs from each area it passes to and from (don't for get those, locks, straights, and harbors). In addition, every ship needs worry about weather, pirates, magical monsters, as well as the more mundane, damage, spoilage, perishablity and pilfering as opposed to the outright theft by the 'tiny' crew of a big sailing ship which also occurs.

Finally, after all those factors are considered. Lets look at these moving oh so quickly goal posts. The ship makes one trip one way and the magical movers make 133. Okay, so the first trip the ships cheaper the second, well not so much however, while the ships in gone or sailing the touts for the magical movers are going from each dockhouse, warehouse, merchants quarter, producer, shop manager of any size, and caravansaries in the area with flyers, broadsheets and criers selling the next days instan-freaking-taneous shipment with no ship, tariffs from in between places, pilfering, pirates, etc. Suddenly everybody can purchase a spot 'in the big market' sign up, have your cargo at the magical transport and tomorrow it's in 'x' town.

Big merchants, bonus if you get your goods to market early? Well look no further while your competitions' cargo is getting moldy on ship yours is sold for gold right then right there on the return trip tomorrow. Move perishable goods that die on ship or get sick easily, slaves, animals, monsters, monster-slaves, no more losses due to dying, your perishable goods are delivered tomorrow. No not tomorrow, tomorrow and the next day are full up already, you get your stuff delivered next Thursday, still quicker and with far fewer losses than otherwise, no?

Further lets look at places you cannot get a ship to due to pirates, greedy kings and warlords between here and there, no known sea routes, landlocked etc (silk road). 'You can get me all the tea in the warehouse in Khitan by Wednesday? This Wednesday? Not next year on a maybe get's robbed by bandits, maybe not basis? Skipping all the tariffs, tolls, extortion, and bribery between Khitan and here? Sign me up. The government can get all the wheat to market before spoilage? Shippers can move beef, pork, and dairy to market same day? No more food riots, no risk of pirates causing a panic, no risk of rising bread prices and cheaper exhibits for the games? Yeah we'll take that.

Sail was used until the twentieth century. Still profitable next to steam for a hundred years. But never as reliable and except for a very small class of very specialized ships never near as fast. Just that slight difference doomed sail.

Being able to have everything perishable, everything time sensitive, everything you didn't have a market for because you simply couldn't get it there before it was useless sludge or it spoiled completely, every government order, every tax receipt, every Imperial decree, King's address, bureaucratic form, order, whim instantly sent across the world? Being able to ensure inland cities 'water transport' levels of goods and services instantly? Dukes and duchesses, lords and ladies, even the common folk get their expected goods in market on time reliably and in bulk never thought of before. 'Nice cuppa governor', tea that most sought after of English staples is now brought in quickly and bulk. No more recycling blocks of 'tea' (mostly sticks, twigs, trash, and some ink stains) except for the very poorest of poor beggars everyone can afford at least poor tea. Let's talk beef, cheap or free some places dear somewhere else. Now you can get fresh beef to the butchers and government warehouses all over the capital. Meat changes the whole dynamic and provides regular cheap protein for the populace.

Now lets talk spices, expensive liqueurs, wines, delicacies, alchemical ingredients, jewelery, gold, silver, etc. Silver sat on the docks in Panama simply because gold was being shipped. Now? No more all goes to the capital the next day.

Bread riots in the capital? Nope not happening anymore because there is almost always enough food produced it's just hard to get to market and processed reliably. Need animals and captives for the games from exotic places?

No brainer, magic wins every time. Thank you for making the case more thoroughly than I ever could.


Lincoln Hills wrote:
Karl Hammarhand wrote:
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was referring to all magical transport and just using the circle as an example. It doesn't matter what form the magical transport uses as long as it is cheaper.

OK, thanks for clearing that up.

I still see areas (as you say) where physical means would be simpler or cheaper, but I agree that a lot of the "you must guard this caravan of valuablonium as it crosses the Waste of 1001 Monsters" plots don't make much sense as soon as the time and money costs exceed those of hiring a wizard of sufficient power.

I agree my grandfather moved goods via a pack line of mules and horses in the mountains of Idaho while airplanes moved airmail. He rode a horse to work while others rode a car or train or plane.

The old world doesn't have to cease just because some situations change. Personally, I am an Iron age, Hyborian age, bronze age, Greek and Norse fan so probably wouldn't be using lots of magical cargo moving in my games but that's just me. Unless I was doing a 'magical' Barsoom campaign in which case Pathfinder might be just the right power levels.


If you really must have pirates and such a better (more fun) solution is skyships as long as they fit your story. Ships that travel hundreds of miles in a day with great sails or propellers powered by great monsters or spells. 'Lift wood' or a lifting sphere of some kind or maybe just go with a zeppelin (not quite as cool I know).

Still magical, still swashbucklery, still funner than simple teleports from a to b and you still get your pirates, privateers, swashbucklers, boarding actions, stern chases etc.

It's a thought anyway.


Lincoln Hills wrote:

Are you counting the cost of setting up a circle at the other end? The facilities around that end might be the responsibility of the ruler there, but until you have two-way teleportation, all you have is a big empty room, right?

(Also, shipping can sail to more than one location with only a negligible increase in costs, while each new pair of circles is its own dedicated expense.)

Shipping lines establish shipping lines because it is risky (economically and otherwise) to vary from that. You need the stability in regular deliveries to regular customers. Shipping to other locations has costs that are far from negligible. You need to have a port that can and will cater your company and type of vessel there needs to be the type of resupply that your ship and crew need reliably there. You need to have the security that the waters are charted and free of pirates (in a fantasy setting I would add monsters).

For items like big shipments of grain from Egypt to Rome, I believe the big barges will still move. Pirates don't have much reason to hijack them and navies can and will provide escort if for no other reason than to keep their ships and men in trim and establish a presence. For small, valuable, perishable, or time sensitive things like mail, orders, government decrees, taxes, important personages, etc magical transport has it beat to heck.


Lincoln Hills wrote:
Karl: I thought the basis of your argument in favor of circles was that transporters of goods will seek the lowest possible cost. It is economically illogical for the wizards to sell access to a circle for less than they would charge for individual teleports: therefore what they charge for each trip would be the same as for teleport (if not greater teleport) per access. Even though teleportation circle (according to the usual costs for paying for cast spells) ought to be a bargain over the long run, any NPC wizard whose Intelligence is roleplayed properly would not offer the service - except for situations when the wizard isn't trying to profit. You dig?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was referring to all magical transport and just using the circle as an example. It doesn't matter what form the magical transport uses as long as it is cheaper.

Other benefits for the crafter/creator is if he simply uses a very simple spell or magical ritual to move the items every time. That would allow him to train apprentices or 'promising' family members with little risk and effort.

Other benefits are gaining contacts in the merchant and gentry, access to high priced spices and rare goods and communication easily and cheaply across vast distances (mail service) which he again charges for.

Moving small but valuable items would more than pay for itself. Spices, rare minerals or magical components, mail and messages etc. The magical method isn't really important here only that it is vastly cheaper over long distances and probably moderately cheaper over medium distance with the advantage that the information and orders of an empire could move much faster.


thejeff wrote:
Karl Hammarhand wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Karl Hammarhand wrote:
If they were making money they'd probably still accept the subsidies. More importantly they'd have the money to pony up enough to keep Christie from shutting them down. Since they depend on subsidies they can only appeal to the people who offered them subsidies in the first place. And that wasn't Christie.

What?

They must need subsidies because if they didn't they be able to bribe Christie? What sense does that make?

No let's make this simpler. They don't make money that's why they need subsidies. They don't have money to really make political contributions (bribes). Thus they don't have political clout. Thus Christie listened to those who do have political clout.

On the subject of subsidies, plenty of businesses that do not need subsidies or tax breaks accept them. Tesla would probably still keep accepting the subsidies even if they were profitable. It is human nature.

Does that make sense?

What subsidies are we talking about? Of course they'd accept subsidies. Any business is going to take free money when they can get it, but what does that have to do with Tesla?

There's a long distance between "Makes enough money to stay in business" and "Makes enough money to outbribe one of the behemoths of American industry." In fact isn't that the original point. Established players cheat to take out the still small but better technology?

You are allowing your prejudices to color your view of Tesla motors thus the situation. Electric vehicles are not superior in any functional way than internal combustion engines. Internal combustion is a mature and tested technology gasoline is artificially kept high through taxation from one end of the pipeline to the other but still cheaper to run the vehicle on.

Range of travel, convenience, price, refueling capacity, maintenance, reliability, all of these favor internal combustion engines. That's why people haven't switch to electric vehicles. Yes they are quieter and have fewer emissions however unless you are using hydro-power (evil dam building that) you are producing emissions or radioactive waste to produce electricity. Don't mention solar or wind. They are more heavily subsidized than the Tesla motors and utterly useless for production of power on the scale to move more than a handful of hobbyists vehicles.

The whole point of the subsidies is that they cannot make it without subsidies. No money being made. Probably never be able to make enough and sell enough to make money. Magical transport is cheaper. Thus boatloads of money to spread around and plenty of incentive to do so.

Smaller yes, better not yet. Maybe never. If there were money to make in Tesla the established players would take their cut. Since their isn't they get subsidies and tax credits paid directly from their competitors. You're getting hung up on the fact they got shafted by the 'worse' company when the 'worse' company is making more money by unit and by volume.

More people use and continue to use internal combustion. Don't get me wrong if I was able to get a hold of the old Chevy electric vehicle they no longer make I would. I like quiet and would love a Tesla. Do I believe it is any way functionally superior to my massive GMC Suburban? No, I have many children and grandchildren and need to drive sometimes eight or nine kids plus luggage groceries etc. I live in a very rural area with dangerous roads. Slides, floods, trees across the roads are all things I contend with on a regular basis. I doubt the Tesla could clear any of those barriers or carry an ax and chainsaw to clear a tree or a tow rope to move it off the road.

Tesla doesn't make enough to stay in business. Absent green tax credits and subsidies Tesla would lose around $12,000 per vehicle. It's like the old joke, yeah I lose money with every sale but I make it up in volume.


fictionfan wrote:
Lincoln Hills wrote:

While the logistical reasons that various transportation methods exist can be a fascinating topic for some, I don't think either of you is going to convince the other if you haven't already.

Given the economically-driven motivations I've noted so far, I'm surprised that one reason I haven't heard yet in the circle-networks-would-not-exist camp is that wizards get to charge for each use of teleport individually, over and over - so only a wizard driven by non-economic reasons would ever set up a permanent, "free" service instead.

Merchant: I'll give you a million gold pieces to set up a permanent gate!
Wizard: And destroy the monopoly that I and my guild-brothers have held over your heads for centuries? I think not.

This exactly. Also it is possible that wizards don't want the common people to have magic they don't control.

Who's to say they wouldn't control it? Part of the deal is that they have to allow their apprentices to operate the transport device. Or they want a controlling stake in the board of directors or the guild. Or they set it up that only the bloodline of the crafter can operate the device. Many ways they could maintain control.


thejeff wrote:
Karl Hammarhand wrote:
If they were making money they'd probably still accept the subsidies. More importantly they'd have the money to pony up enough to keep Christie from shutting them down. Since they depend on subsidies they can only appeal to the people who offered them subsidies in the first place. And that wasn't Christie.

What?

They must need subsidies because if they didn't they be able to bribe Christie? What sense does that make?

No let's make this simpler. They don't make money that's why they need subsidies. They don't have money to really make political contributions (bribes). Thus they don't have political clout. Thus Christie listened to those who do have political clout.

On the subject of subsidies, plenty of businesses that do not need subsidies or tax breaks accept them. Tesla would probably still keep accepting the subsidies even if they were profitable. It is human nature.

Does that make sense?


LazarX wrote:
Karl Hammarhand wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Karl Hammarhand wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:

Right. Science and technology are always embraced and accepted. Tesla called. He wants to know if you'd like to come over to my house and play Dreamcast with him.

We can do it after we get our vaccines, while chatting about the current actions taken to combat global warming and hunger, and maybe look up slides about the end of warfare. You can bring your solar powered car, so that when we're done, we can head out and maybe have some sensibly protected sex with various people or each other, if we're into that.

Because no one is against any of those things, or denies them, or starts huge movements aimed at ruining them.

Human progress, always going for the win-win.

You do know we are communicating using Tesla's breakthrough tech. It's called 'AC current'. Shh, keep the secret. Unless of course you have your computer running off of batteries.
On the other hand, Chris Christie of NJ, became the latest of a series of governors to effectively ban the sale of Tesla cars by signing a law heavily pushed by the Big 3 automakers. New Jersey now requires that all cars be sold through a dealership, effectively banning Tesla which uses the direct sales method.
Which goes back to the problem with electric cars. They need subsidies to exist. Not more profitable, unlike our example of magical transport.
What does subsidies have to do with this? Christie's move was the act of a politician bought by the major automakers who are trying to prevent innovative competition while they sell us overpriced and under performing hybrids.

If they were making money they'd probably still accept the subsidies. More importantly they'd have the money to pony up enough to keep Christie from shutting them down. Since they depend on subsidies they can only appeal to the people who offered them subsidies in the first place. And that wasn't Christie.


LazarX wrote:
Karl Hammarhand wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:

Right. Science and technology are always embraced and accepted. Tesla called. He wants to know if you'd like to come over to my house and play Dreamcast with him.

We can do it after we get our vaccines, while chatting about the current actions taken to combat global warming and hunger, and maybe look up slides about the end of warfare. You can bring your solar powered car, so that when we're done, we can head out and maybe have some sensibly protected sex with various people or each other, if we're into that.

Because no one is against any of those things, or denies them, or starts huge movements aimed at ruining them.

Human progress, always going for the win-win.

You do know we are communicating using Tesla's breakthrough tech. It's called 'AC current'. Shh, keep the secret. Unless of course you have your computer running off of batteries.
On the other hand, Chris Christie of NJ, became the latest of a series of governors to effectively ban the sale of Tesla cars by signing a law heavily pushed by the Big 3 automakers. New Jersey now requires that all cars be sold through a dealership, effectively banning Tesla which uses the direct sales method.

Which goes back to the problem with electric cars. They need subsidies to exist. Not more profitable, unlike our example of magical transport.


Kain Darkwind wrote:

Right. Science and technology are always embraced and accepted. Tesla called. He wants to know if you'd like to come over to my house and play Dreamcast with him.

We can do it after we get our vaccines, while chatting about the current actions taken to combat global warming and hunger, and maybe look up slides about the end of warfare. You can bring your solar powered car, so that when we're done, we can head out and maybe have some sensibly protected sex with various people or each other, if we're into that.

Because no one is against any of those things, or denies them, or starts huge movements aimed at ruining them.

Human progress, always going for the win-win.

Listen, humans don't always go for the 'win-win'. However, over time absent biological imperatives like reproduction, money will win out. Slaves becoming too expensive in Europe due to too much 'harvesting the steppe' and governments being able to fight back? Switch to Africa.

Pirates causing problems? Send in the Navy (if you're strong enough) if not go to shipping via land. Bandits a problem? Build Caravansaries and sponsor big caravans. Shipping via wagon or even canals costing too much? Switch to railroads. All of the above can happen at the same time.

You can have airplanes and men using horses. Steamships and sail.


Kain Darkwind wrote:

Right. Science and technology are always embraced and accepted. Tesla called. He wants to know if you'd like to come over to my house and play Dreamcast with him.

We can do it after we get our vaccines, while chatting about the current actions taken to combat global warming and hunger, and maybe look up slides about the end of warfare. You can bring your solar powered car, so that when we're done, we can head out and maybe have some sensibly protected sex with various people or each other, if we're into that.

Because no one is against any of those things, or denies them, or starts huge movements aimed at ruining them.

Human progress, always going for the win-win.

You do know we are communicating using Tesla's breakthrough tech. It's called 'AC current'. Shh, keep the secret. Unless of course you have your computer running off of batteries.


Kain Darkwind wrote:
Karl Hammarhand wrote:


I've already covered this more than once. The merchant king or guido the longshoreman or whoever is easily bought from the profits. For goodness sakes it's a win-win. New guy hires merchant king to use his contacts and pays him handsomely but best part is mk's costs went to near zilch. He can still pad his payroll with favored employee/clients and no longer needs to run extremely expensive ships. Guido gets to move it physically to the customs/retail stores or just pay them to sit on ass all day there's an obscene amount of money to be made and throw around.

What you continue to fail to cover is how, if things always resolve that simply, have they not resolved that simply in our own world? History is full of events where the win-win situation was avoided, lost, or deliberately walked away from.

Could happen does not translate to will happen. Almost like there was a reason we have two different words for those concepts.

Wrong, I have already cited the example of how the railroad maintained makework jobs to keep the unions happy. Guido and his friends also leached onto the teamster unions eventually wholly owning them and actively working against their members via their political choices. Other examples on both sides of that include governments subsidizing unprofitable airlines to governments setting up caravansaries, deploying ships to fight off pirates etc. Cargo shifted from ships to land traffic more than once because of pirates including sending men and cargo down the silk road.

Pre-steamships sail can be kinda, sorta cheap however pirates screw that into three kinds of hell. Post steam you do not keep the sail for long hundred or two years tops. Long before that railroads, begin inroads into wagons or pack trains. Governments gave huge subsidies to move freight and people faster. Railroads linked nations all over the world. Governments did everything to get them going.

Did people still use pack mules and airships? Yes there is room for both even in the same country. But that doesn't mean that we still used pony express to deliver mail across the west. At the same time we used packmules in the mountains of Idaho, we also used airmail.

Need more examples?


Kain Darkwind wrote:
fictionfan wrote:
Kelarith wrote:


Or in a far less lethal manner, the merchant king hires a wizard to cast dispel magic on the shoes. The port-merchant now has to go through the whole expense of having new shoes made.
Dispel magic only suppresses magic items for a short time. But really it would make more sense for the merchant king to get into the teleport business.

"Make the most sense" has not underwritten much of human history.

If it is easier to kill the teleporter than to buy into your own teleportation technology (and running the same risks you are considering introducing to this guy), then that will happen. And if it happens enough, would-be teleporting merchants will get the idea that they need to be more discreet with their attempted monopolies.

I've already covered this more than once. The merchant king or guido the longshoreman or whoever is easily bought from the profits. For goodness sakes it's a win-win. New guy hires merchant king to use his contacts and pays him handsomely but best part is mk's costs went to near zilch. He can still pad his payroll with favored employee/clients and no longer needs to run extremely expensive ships. Guido gets to move it physically to the customs/retail stores or just pay them to sit on ass all day there's an obscene amount of money to be made and throw around.


GreyWolfLord wrote:

Hmm...I just started as a player to an AD&D campaign this week.

There IS something almost palpable that is different, but I can't quite put my finger no it. Something that makes your characters slightly more memorable to me.

I love PF, don't get me wrong, and there are ways to make PF more like AD&D, but when playing our first two sessions, there really is something different about AD&D. It's absolutely noticeable...and I like it, but I really can't put my finger on exactly what it is.

Perhaps for this game it's because there is less focus on numbers and more on what makes your character, aka...what is unique about my Ranger vs. any other ranger out there? Instead of simply numbers with skills and weapons and other options, your focus is drawn towards the character and character development...aka...you have to roleplay that part?

Of course, if you are a use and dispose party (a group where you roll up characters only to have them die that session and have to roll up more...high mortality...etc) then I suppose it wouldn't have the same idea...but at the same time...you'd still have it that if you want something more unique about your character that others don't have...it's more up to you to roleplay that difference in some ways rather than focusing on what the numbers could tell you.

PS: OR, maybe it could be that I have to DM PF and the group is all women besides me. With the AD&D group, I'm only a PC/Player and the entire group is a bunch of guys?

Playing with women definitely brings a different dynamic to the table.


If you think Galahad, Gawain, Lancelot, Paksanarion, and other's like them you will have a good idea of a Paladin's morality. You also have to consider the game world.

In a game I ran in one culture the Paladin's and Clerics were the judges with no jury required. When they traveled elsewhere they followed the laws of the land they were in as much as possible but were allowed to right out and out injustices as and when they saw fit (without changing alignment) and if they could. Meaning they didn't have to close down the slave markets of another city but they could if they wished try and do so and any honorable means were allowed (it was entirely honorable for them to use subterfuge and sabotage to an end they couldn't achieve otherwise if the need was great enough). Like shutting down the slave market.


Mark Hoover wrote:
KH: some skills already have a "get close/partial success" sort of thing to them. Fail your climb roll by 4 or less and you just don't make any progress but you don't fall. Maybe use that as a baseline.

That sounds like an excellent place to start.

1 to 50 of 304 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | next > last >>