The figther class does mainly ad to things that is usefull on a full attack. But the game have options enough from other things than class features to allow for more options.
I think the figther is mechanical viable. But it can become boring.
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Boring is subjective.
The thing with Fighters is, outside combat, they're all roleplaying, no game. Outside combat, 4 class skills (Intimidate, Knowledge: Dungeoneering, Knowledge: Engineering, Survival) is literally the entire distinction between Commoners and Fighters.
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That's frankly where making a character comes in. But of course it depends, some people just like to be the guy who bust down doors, beat up monsters and collect the loot, while letting other members of the party take care of the talking/roleplaying.
I mean after all most heroic fantasy adventures have fighters/barbarians as the party leader or main character. So just look at your favorite fighters in fictional work and try to think what do you like about them.
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I think a more accurate thing to ask - in order to avoid the whole "everything can be fun if you do it right" type of answer - would be if playing a fighter would make it more or less likely for you to have an amount of fun playing it compared to the amount of fun you would have by playing other class.
The answer is that most likely you would have less fun.
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It depends on the fighter you're playing. There is a fighter archetype which specialize in Dex and has higher skill points. (Lore Warden)
Another Method: I'm a Kensai Magus / Shadowdancer - "fighter" with a wealth of skills 8/level due to intelligence.
Combat Maneuvers depend on the situation. I prefer Trip, combat steal, disarm, sunder, and have spells for bull rush. Another Pathfinder prefers dirty tricks to blind opponents.
The reason I prefer Trip - I have greater trip and a Shadow with a ghost touch menacing blade. He moves in to flank, I move up with a greater trip and give him a free AOO (on the trip) and his readied attack (to hit when someone flanks).
Bull Rush via Force punch - I've sent several guys flying off walls. Its a blast...literally.
They are boring if you lack imagination
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In my personal experience, it depends a lot on what type of game you play.
If the game is very hard and requires a lot of optimization for combat, fighters tend to become kind of one-trick ponies (or maybe two tricks, but still) in combat, while lacking out of combat options. Other classes, like barbarians and rangers, tend to be able to match them reasonably well in their niches while having lots of other options that fighters dont.
In a game where the optimization level isnt as high, or enemies are weaker, fighters tend to perform quite well - they have enough feats to be reasonably good with a maneuver or three while the lower level of optimization allows them to put perhaps a 12 or so in Int to get a few more skill points.
That said, there are good options for making combat more varying that are available to anyone - fighters can make great use of tanglefoot bags, nets, jugs of grease and smokesticks just like anyone else.
Really, it's up to you to breathe life and fun into your character AND to take advantage of rules that were put into place to make the game fun and enjoyable for everyone.
Disappointed in your combat options? You CAN do things other than full attack, you know. Do you use Vital Strike? Did you take feats that let you demoralize effectively? Did you take Saving Shield? Is there a rogue in your group? Why don't you take a 5-foot step so he can flank more effectively? Baddies moving toward the spellcaster? Did you take Stand Still and plant yourself between the baddies and your wizard?
Outside of combat .... did you take any feats or traits that make things more interesting? Cosmopolitan gives you two extra class skills. Intimidating Prowess makes sure everybody recognizes your mighty thews. If you're still feeling useless, why don't you aid another? RP it a little bit, roll a die semi-well, and you can give somebody else a +2 bonus to his next skill roll. Did you (again) explore archetypes? The cad and the tactician both bring something to the noncombat fighter.
Finally ... did you bother to give your fighter a personality? Is he a loud, boisterous bruiser? A contemplative weapon master? A sly, sneaky flanker?
You can have fun playing a fighter, and you can do things other than "full attack, full attack, full attack." But it takes a little effort on your part.
Most of the options named here is available to every body. And that is the Fighters problem. He deliver solid offense but there is littel Else that you get from the class.
The fighter's abundance of combat feats means you can make him fairly well rounded by using your regular odd level feats to pick up non combat feats.
Cosmopolitan, Skill Focus, and the other feats like Magical Aptitude that give a +2 to two different skills can transform a character from simple sword swinger to a swiss army skill set that still has a solid combat presence. You'll need to be able to resist min maxing and/or willing to use your favored class bonus to add more skill points per level.The hardest part for me when playing fighter characters is not focusing purely on combat. Pathfinder has such a wide range of combat feats with all their books that its hard to not just keep piling them on a character when you get the chance. If you can resist the lure of pure combat you can have a well rounded character with the fighter.
Doing this will allow the figther to be worse at figthing than the Barbarian and the ranger and almost as good out of combat as them as well.
I have done this with Fighters and yes this is an option but a level dip or 2 in rogue will be better if you want more skills.| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Quite honestly, one could roleplay a Commoner and have a great experience.
So "boring" needs to be qualified here.
When someone says a class is "boring", I take it to mean that the class itself doesn't bring much to the table for enhancing your gameplay experience. What mechanically does it offer that keeps things going.
Now personally, I think the Fighter class is a toolbox class, like Rogue or Cleric or Sorcerer/Wizard. They don't bring so much distinction to the table as they do tools to build your character.
If you approach character building in the way of concept-first, then you can decide if the Fighter class (or even taking some Fighter levels) is what you want.
So let's take a look at what the Fighter brings to the table:
Combat Stats - The Fighter has d10 HD, full BAB, and Fort saves (for resisting many non-CMD attacks in combat) and Bravery (so you don't run like a scared girl as much). If you want to kick-ass and take names in combat, this is a good start.
Combat Versatility - The Fighter's bonus features (weapon training and combat feats) allow you to build him a vast number of ways. The archetypes help this even further. Even the armor training lets you basically pick whatever armor you want (since even full plate can be done in high Dex at the higher levels).
Aaaand that's about it. Combat, combat, combat. Although, I'm not sure what was to be expected from a class called "Fighter" (I honestly feel that Warrior sounds so much better, but they put that as the NPC class.. gah!).
With only 2+Int skillpoints and a tight skill list, you've got the barest minimum effort in non-combat bonus.
What this means is that you need to use non-class sources to give yourself a boost in non-combat situations.
This sounds like the class, mechanically, offers very little then, right?
Well, there's a hidden benefit. The Fighter gives so much towards combat, that it lets you use your non-class benefits for non-combat things.
A Rogue has to spend his character feats being good at whatever combat method he picked. The Barbarian wants the power attack line? Where's he gonna get it from? Character feats.
The beauty of a Fighter is that you are already getting all the things you need in combat, so Character Feats is where you can pick up things like Master Craftsman, Skill Focus or other skill feats, Leadership, Racial feats or things like Antagonize.
Build a Fighter with 13 Int (opening use of Combat Expertise and Focused Shot), and you can have at least 4 skillpoints per level (5 if Human), giving plenty of options for out of combat use (Intimidate, Knowledge, languages, etc).
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The class was built to be very simple in gameplay (if not in mastery, since making the wrong feat choices can hinder your character). The intent way back in 2000 was to have this class play as a hack'n'slash class, "I have a hammer, everything is a nail", kind of class.
People will take that to heart and use all their non-class benefits to boost this even more, leading to purely combat machines that become totally one-dimensional (I've even heard of fighter builds that don't branch out to multiple combat methods, pure focus on one combat style and that's it!).
That being said, the class could stand to have more in the way that "forces" a player to build outside of the combat box. More skillpoints and class skills, or an ability that grants some kind of knowledge about engineering or tactics to help with overall war, seige and whatnot (instead of just total in-the-heat-of-it combat benefits).
You can still have "fightery" things that apply outside of combat, and this class isn't so overfull with ideas that it doesn't have room for a few extra things.
But, if I could sum up what the Fighter brings in a sound-byte:
The Fighter class is like experimental jazz. You have to listen to the notes she isn't playing.
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I'm one of those weird people who thinks Casters are boring to play. I've played just about every class in this game and the fighter is my favorite by far. The barbarian is a close second though. I sort of prefer the fact that the fighter can't afford to be skilled in everything. It's kind of funny praying that my dice roll will counter balance the fact that I only have 1 skill rank in diplomacy at level 13. It's the versatility of casters that kind of makes the game boring. I don't like the idea of circumventing every problem in an easy and almost lazy way. But that's just me.
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The fighter's abundance of combat feats means you can make him fairly well rounded by using your regular odd level feats to pick up non combat feats.
Cosmopolitan, Skill Focus, and the other feats like Magical Aptitude that give a +2 to two different skills can transform a character from simple sword swinger to a swiss army skill set that still has a solid combat presence. You'll need to be able to resist min maxing and/or willing to use your favored class bonus to add more skill points per level.The hardest part for me when playing fighter characters is not focusing purely on combat. Pathfinder has such a wide range of combat feats with all their books that its hard to not just keep piling them on a character when you get the chance. If you can resist the lure of pure combat you can have a well rounded character with the fighter.
The commoner's lack of combat ability means you can make him fairly well rounded by using your regular odd level feats to pick up non combat feats.
Cosmopolitan, Skill Focus, and the other feats like Magical Aptitude that give a +2 to two different skills can transform a character from simple dirt farmer to a swiss army skill set. You'll need to be able to resist min maxing and/or willing to use your favored class bonus to add more skill points per level.The hardest part for me when playing commoner characters is not focusing purely on combat. Pathfinder has such a wide range of dirt farming feats with all their books that its hard to not just keep piling them on a character when you get the chance. If you can resist the lure of pure dirt farming you can have a well rounded character with the commoner.
...That really didn't take much editing.
Also, having 4 skill points instead of 4, with bad synergy and a poor skill list, is not enough either.
Fighters can be straight forward (depending on how you use your feats). They can be quite exotic. What they will be is very very good at what they do. Hydra's may be immune to tripping, but they are particularly vulnerable to sunder, and a fighter has a very good base chance of sundering, and is immensely likely to behead if they are built for it.
Disarm a dragon? No - but they might actually resist being disarmed by one.
As for their skill selection - that's what traits (and feats) are for. One of my fighters can out-talk a bard. Another can walk across a slippery log in half-plate.
Enjoy the combat mastery, and develop any other niche you want to have.
Funnest character I've had was a 3.5 Halfling fighter. Designed him on the idea of a tiny body swinging a massive sword like a spinning top and hanging on for dear life as he let the momentum do all the damage. It was this weird chain of feats that created this Leaping-Spring-Power attack bouncing ball of death jumping from one end of the room to the other.
To me a Fun fighter is about envisioning the Combat style first and then figuring out how to make it a reality.
Another Method: I'm a Kensai Magus / Shadowdancer - "fighter" with a wealth of skills 8/level due to intelligence.
I second this. The most fun way to play a fighter is to play another class and fluff it as a fighter (not that there's much flavor to being a fighter).
That said, it's not hard to make fighters more fun to play outside of combat. Give them more skill points, more class skills, and some non-combat class abilities. This is far from making the class overpowered but I think it does a lot towards making them fun to play in between bouts of killing exotic monsters.
Er, I mean, if you aren't having fun outside of combat playing a class that was designed to be useless outside of combat, then that is due to your deficiencies as a player and as a human being, not due to poor design decisions!
I wouldn't say so. Of course, this comment is coming from someone whos favorite class is barbarian. More than anything else, you need to think about it as an RP opportunity. will you be the best outside of combat? No, and you're not supposed to be, you're supposed to be the very best, like no one ever was at whacking people/things/elves. If that isn't what you want, then the Fighter just isn't for you.
But you can contribute, especially if you have a GM who is actually willing to reward RP.
Fighters can be straight forward (depending on how you use your feats). They can be quite exotic. What they will be is very very good at what they do. Hydra's may be immune to tripping, but they are particularly vulnerable to sunder, and a fighter has a very good base chance of sundering, and is immensely likely to behead if they are built for it.
Disarm a dragon? No - but they might actually resist being disarmed by one.
As for their skill selection - that's what traits (and feats) are for. One of my fighters can out-talk a bard. Another can walk across a slippery log in half-plate.
Enjoy the combat mastery, and develop any other niche you want to have.
When you say out talk a bard is that a bard that have used the same non class specifc resourse on it? Or is it a bard that dumped cha and ditent use skill points in the talki skills?
If it is the second then i have a expert build that can out figth a figther;)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Useless gimp character = REAL ROLEPLAYAR!!
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The thing with Fighters is, outside combat, they're all roleplaying, no game.
Exqueeze me? It's called a "Role-Playing Game" for a reason. If you don't understand that, you don't understand the game.
Anyways: The Fighter is on one level one of the most flexible, and on another pretty much THE most specialized class in the game, hence the name. Their raison d'etre that sets them apart even from paladins, rangers, barbarians, and cavaliers, is their peerless proficiency with armor and weapons, something I daresay Pathfinder actualized very well. But let me put it to you this way: Are Heracles, Beowulf, and Wolverine "boring?"
Fighters don't just have a smattering of skills (the giving of a couple of which I do find kind of questionable; I guess if I had had my way, I would have been more inclined to give Fighters any SINGLE Knowledge skill of their choice to reflect their diverse backgrounds, and Acrobatics instead of Survival) that apply to challenges beyond combat: They have strong physical abilities. Yes, one could point out that ability scores are a phenomenon separate from character class, but while that's true, bear in mind that Fighters are one of small minority of classes that can afford to function well (even fantastic) with most or all their points/good rolls dedicated to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution (the others I can think of being Rogues, Barbarians, Cavaliers, and Samurai, all of whom, quite possibly even Barbarians, actually feel a much stronger tug toward a modicum of mental power than Fighters) - which is not to say that you can't or shouldn't have a Fighter with appreciable mental faculties, just that you have the best opportunity not to, with them. Anyways, what does this mean outside combat? Plenty. Brush up on your extra-strong/nimble/tough comic book superheroes, most of whom have a "thing" about actually killing people, and wind up in a lot of situations where they employ their might for non-violent ends: Halting a runaway vehicle, clearing rubble, rescuing the weak from rockslides/falling/burning buildings/drowning, lifting and carrying impossibly heavy things, supporting collapsing structures, bursting fetters, and don't forget lifting gates and bending bars, which had it's own seat at the Strength progression table in 2nd Edition. The Fighter is not a man for all seasons - in that respect, it's in the majority of classes, and if invited to the Royal Ball, most Fighters will be in the backroom quietly playing cards and waiting for trouble with the Monk and the Alchemist - but in a well-built game that incorporates a wide array of challenges, they'll still have plenty to do.
I've thought for a while that what would be darned welcome would be a sourcebook - hardcover-sized, not just a "player companion" - that was all about non-combat challenges, and what characters of all types could do with them.
Useless gimp character = REAL ROLEPLAYAR!!
Bean-counter who holds imagination in contempt = Clueless Johnny-Come-Lately Gamer Who's Better Off Counting Cards At A Blackjack Table Where They Might At Least Be Able To Make Money In The Land Of The Living (admittedly, gambling on RPGs could be interesting and has no doubt been done).
Useless gimp character = REAL ROLEPLAYAR!!
"Useless gimp" is just as subjective as "boring" is.
Your fighter does not need to have every single Weapon Spec. feat in order to do well in combat. It is the GM's job to make sure combat is not insurmountable to the PCs, just like it is the GM's job to make sure the fighter has something to do during roleplay. If you want to skip Greater Weapon Focus and take Skill Focus: Basket Weaving instead your GM should ease up a little on the monsters and give you some basket skill checks. There is no such thing as a combat-ineffective character if the game is being played properly.
You have to understand that a Fighter doesn't need to max out his skill ranks...if he can reliably get a 10 or 15 DC check in or out of combat then the skill is good enough.
For example a Fighter really only needs to be able to get a 5 or 10 DC check with climb...so figure out what your Armor check penalty is and do the math. A 20th level fighter does not need 20 ranks in climb, or swim, etc.
If you don't tank your Int, maybe put your favored class bonus into skills and maybe playa human you have a enough skill points to be able to do your core skill needs adequately and throw some points into something else you may want for color...maybe UMB for instance.
In addition with the Fighter abundance of feats he can be both a melee specialist and a decent ranged combatant just by taking Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot and nothing else...he can afford to spend two fearts unless you are trying to make some Uber grappling trip specialist brawler (yawn)
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Are fighters really that boring to play?
Yes.
Classes with class features such as spellcasting have those options + imagination and can use those class features creatively sometimes too!
Generally, yes, though it's mostly a relative thing.
I could ... hit things, disarm, sunder, trip ...
Or I could blast multiple targets, trap them in webs, take over their minds ...
Which sounds more interesting to you? Ultimately, the problem is that whatever fighters can do, other classes can do as well, usually do it better, and can do even more.
Useless gimp character = REAL ROLEPLAYAR!!Not only spelled wrong, but also completely false.
Don't worry guys, I can hit slightly harder than the other guys to make up for me not being useful at anything else and not actually having abilities to help me reach the problem to full attack it! Now I'm going to need to depend on you all to help me reach that problem to full attack it even though you can probably solve it yourself. Also, you shouldn't let me talk to people because I didn't have enough skill points to put any into any of those social skills.
Fighter lack of skill points was just bad desing that no dev have wanted to admit.
Depends on your edition and dev and how you define admitting it. 3.5 had some support to give martials with options, both as alternate classes, class features, and feats that gave you combat options(success and morale may vary).
We are talking about PF so I was talking about PF Devs.Fighter lack of skill points was just bad desing that no dev have wanted to admit.Depends on your edition and dev and how you define admitting it. 3.5 had some support to give martials with options, both as alternate classes, class features, and feats that gave you combat options(success and morale may vary).
I don't like to throw stones in someone else's house. Tends to get me in trouble.
"Boring" is subjective, of course... It's a matter of taste, not an exact science.
That said, IMHO... Yes. Yes, they are.
In fact, I'd say Fighters are the most boring class in the whole game. If a Fighter can't full attack, his class is doing nothing for him.
All they get are numbers. They lack any class features that add any variety or versatility, and as I said before, options are the most valuable resource you can have. Role play can help with that, of course, but that can be done with any class, not just Fighters. Lore Wardens are a bit better, but still too dull for my tastes...
So, yeah, I find Fighters extremely boring... Whatever role play I could use to make them less boring I could do the same with any other class and still have useful and interesting class features.
I'm enjoying the hell out of my fighter in Jade Regent.
Jade Regent is an excellent campaign for being a combat maneuvers specialist.
Oni are very dependent on their weapons.
I don't permit them to keep their weapons.
Some combat maneuvers take a LOT of feats to be good with, which makes it harder to do if you're not a fighter. Reposition is a big example of this, since it has a lot of restrictions on it. It takes four feats to do the following with reposition --
1) Get +4 on the checks to use it. (Greater Reposition, with requires improved reposition)
2) Your allies get AoOs on enemies you reposition (Greater Reposition)
3) You can perform a reposition in place of one of your attack while full-attacking (swift reposition; reposition is normally a standard action)
4) You can reposition enemies into hazards, and they take a penalty to saves and AC against said hazard (tactical reposition; for whatever reason, reposition normally won't let you fling enemies into hazards)
Anyways, I've used reposition to do things like whip an enemy back & forth through a blade barrier spell, or fling an enemy into flanking between the inquisitor and her barbarian cohort - if the enemy doesn't die from AoOs (it often does), it will most certainly die from the full attacks.
Outside of combat... 1) traits are you friend. Use 'em to pick up additional class skills that interest you. My fighter has diplomacy. 2) Profession (soldier) and Knowledge (engineering) are great skills to aggressively find uses for. 3) Sure, other party members will probably be better at certain skills than you are. In my case, the inquisitor's better at survival and the cleric's better at diplomacy. That's okay. Being able to go "I can help with that" - or being able to go tackle a separate task - is way better than just sitting around like a lump.
I strongly recommend building a fighter to synergize with the party, rather than try to be "top dog." Any class that can burn resources (smite, challenge, instant enemy,* etc.) to ramp up its damage can out-burst you a limited number of times per day. However, a fighter still hits hard, and a fighter hits hard all of the time. Don't undervalue that.
A fighter being "boring" is more a problem with the player than the class.
* Actually, if you have duelist's gloves, all the ranger really does with instant enemy is catch up to you. Lead blades or gravity bow could push them a little ahead, but those are cheap to get oils of (or wands if you pick up UMD), if you care.
** Also, this IS a cooperate game. If you play with people that for whatever reason bitterly resent giving buff spells to other party members, well, one, hopefully you can find a better group of players, but two, be sure to invest in utility magic items and consumables. And actually, get the consumables anyways, because sometimes things go wrong. My fighter has boots of flying, though I've never needed to activate them, because hooray for players who actually work with each other.
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I don't find them boring just a lack of flavorful options. As well they can get feats so can anyone else. They don't get anything unique imo. Barbarians have Rage Powers. Paladins have Mercies. Rangers have combat styles. Fighters swing and hit and when need be combat manuevers. That it. Another problem is a lack of skill points and skills. It's all good to say "roleplaying" it's hard to do with a lack of skills. With the right DM that not a problem except getting the right one is not always the case. I'm still wondering why Fighters don't have perception as a skill. Then again Bard can get the Fly skill with no Fly spell in their spell lists.
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Against their favored enemies a ranger can match a fighter - against others they will fall behind.I always wonder why this sort of equilbrium only applys to fighter. I nths case the favored enemy is situational, good, but the fighter NEVER match the ranger in out of combat utility, ever. How can be a balance there. (not actually annswering to your post, just commenting about a reality of PF)
Pretty simple. PF, like its predecessor, doesn't give two squirts of urine about balance.
