Revised Warpriest Discussion


Class Discussion

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

C is basically what most people are worried about.

I'm all for A for 1 2 and 3.

The most fun is I believe the most subjective answer. I'm all for clear and concise rules being the most fun, so I don't have to question them. I believe I suggested previously that they should all have the same crit range and it should be 20x2 for one handed and 20x3 for two handed. So I'm in camp A.

Though I really think it should only work with favored weapon of your deity. Even if it means that worshipers of Gorum do not see a benefit from this ability till 20th level.

Grand Lodge

I like option C Best. So the war priest will be awesome at critting at higher levels, at the same levels other spellcasters are going to be casting devastating spells. although this is a powerful feature it is the one i like the most of this class and i don't think it is over powered. maybe not allow you to pick and choose which weapons with the "weapon focus" feat. I would feel better about it if you had Gods "weapon groups" or just every couple of levels you could choose a different weapon that you could apply the sacred bonus to

for example a gods "weapon group" Cayaden calean = rapier, net, Mug(improvised weapon) etc. list them for each god. that way we would receive more flavorful characters and find out a little more about the gods in the process.

Dark Archive

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

I'm honestly not sure how anyone can think option A is any more balanced than option C. This is a seriously slippery slope of fear mongering. Any weapon you want can have the same damage, and now the same crit stats, right? So, why would anyone take a weapon without reach? Should we give all weapons reach? If so, why would anyone take a weapon without the trip quality, etc.? Where does the power gamer fear end?

Of the options given:

C is the easiest to use.
C is the most balanced.
C is the most fun.

Making the damage from every weapon standard is awesome. Suddenly weapons with nothing going for them can play with the big guns. Doing anything else to homogenize weapons strips them of their character. I'm about a 90% optimizer, but I can never bring myself to make the most optimized call when there's another almost-as-good option that fits my character's themes better. And I never had any plans for my warpriest other than a huge pole-axe. Why? Crit range and damage dice are not the only things that can make a weapon good, and polearms are way cooler than curvy swords.

Some people will squeeze damage from a class and others will make thematic choices. Let it be.

If people are really worried about the big scary falcata, then the damage dice increase should only affect the deity's favoured weapon. That way the mechanic can do what it was intended to do without unnecessary complication or stress for anybody, and good weapons still get to retain their character.


Benn Roe wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

I'm honestly not sure how anyone can think option A is any more balanced than option C. This is a seriously slippery slope of fear mongering. Any weapon you want can have the same damage, and now the same crit stats, right? So, why would anyone take a weapon without reach?

A few reasons. One good one is that this huge damage increase for little weapons makes TWF more attractive, and you can't do that with a reach weapon. Another is that an enlarged character with a non-reach weapon may have enough reach for a player's purposes without the big 10 foot gap that you can't attack.

Dark Archive

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The point remains that there's always going to be a best build. It has never stopped people from playing the characters they wanted in the past and the warpriest isn't going to change that. Normalizing crit stats and damage just takes all of the thematics out of weapon selection.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
Tels wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Tels wrote:

Obligatory Monk Post!

If 'A' is chosen (all Sacred weapons have same crit range) what would you choose Jason?

I ask, because, if the default becomes 19-20/x2 how does this interact with Improved Critical? If it doubles to 17-20/x2, it would make the Warpriest the best unarmed class in the game.

Brawlers and Monks would cry for a 17-20 crit range on their unarmed strikes.

This is acceptable if they worship the god of punching monsters right square in their dumb monster jowls.

Yes, but if the Brawler (and his weaker Dad, the Monk) are supposed to be the best face puncher classes, and sort of deigned around that premise, it'd be a shame if the Warpriest just came along and did everything they do, better.

It's enough the Warpriest gets scaling weapon damage. Up until the revision it was a Monk only, then Monk/Brawler thing.

That sounds like an argument to make monk unarmed strikes better, not make warpriest's attacks weaker.

and in the distance you hear a cry--the devs, they speak!

"buh-but we cant rerwite core material, even to fix our broken classes! think of the paying customers who's books will be invalidated by actually making things functional!"


Whoops, ignore this :P Shouldn't post when I'm tired:
Something that just popped into my head:

If you choose a god whose favored weapon normally does 2d6, you don't get that damage until 15th level under the current system.

Why? The moment you select Weapon Focus in that weapon, your 1st level Warpriest is wielding a 1d6 weapon, because that portion of Sacred Weapon isn't denoted in the text as optional. It simply says that by taking Weapon Focus, that type of weapon becomes sacred, and deals damage based on your level.

Not certain if I like that, personally. It obviously helps out Warpriests of Pharasma, but it also means that by choosing a deity with a more powerful favored weapon you penalize yourself for a number of levels, until the normalized weapon damage 'catches up'.

[edit]
Am I late to the party realizing that? :P Somehow I'd bet I am.


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Xaratherus wrote:

Something that just popped into my head:

If you choose a god whose favored weapon normally does 2d6, you don't get that damage until 15th level under the current system.

Why? The moment you select Weapon Focus in that weapon, your 1st level Warpriest is wielding a 1d6 weapon, because that portion of Sacred Weapon isn't denoted in the text as optional. It simply says that by taking Weapon Focus, that type of weapon becomes sacred, and deals damage based on your level.

Not certain if I like that, personally. It obviously helps out Warpriests of Pharasma, but it also means that by choosing a deity with a more powerful favored weapon you penalize yourself for a number of levels, until the normalized weapon damage 'catches up'.

[edit]
Am I late to the party realizing that? :P Somehow I'd bet I am.

Excerpt from the book, last paragraph of Sacred Weapon:

In addition, the warpriest sacred weapon damage is
based on his level and not the weapon type. The damage
for Medium warpriests is listed on Table 1–13; see the
table below for Small and Large warpriests. If the weapon
normally deals more damage than this, its damage is
unchanged.
This increase in damage does not affect any
other aspect of the weapon. The warpriest can decide
to use the weapon’s base damage instead of the sacred
weapon damage—this must be declared before the attack
roll is made.

Edit
Well, last paragraph before the table :P


...yeah, this is what I get for reading\posting when I should be asleep. n/m then, and thank you for the correction Solidchaos085.


Xaratherus wrote:
...yeah, this is what I get for reading\posting when I should be asleep. n/m then, and thank you for the correction Solidchaos085.

Not a problem at all :)


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

So....

1. Which is easiest to use?
2. Which is the most balanced?
3. Which is the most fun?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

1. A is definitely the easiest to use. You have one standard set of (scaling) stats vs the default weapon stats. Up to you to choose which to use.

2. Option A is probably the most balanced too. I'll be honest and admit that I'm tempted to play a Scimitar build just to see how 1d6 18-20 x2 works with the weapon dice increasing every few levels.

3. I find option C the most fun. The idea of giant dice and maximum crit chance is very appealing. I understand why some people don't like the idea though.

Grand Lodge

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

So....

1. Which is easiest to use?
2. Which is the most balanced?
3. Which is the most fun?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

my warpriest is wielding a large size bastard sword 2d8 19/20 x2 crit so i have a high crit chance with a decent mount of weapon damage i'm still doing more damage then the 1d8 sacred weapon damage i get from being 6 level. crit ranges are balanced as is with the shorter range with higher crit values.


Well, I think we can safely say it's going to be A or C. :D


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

So....

1. Which is easiest to use?
2. Which is the most balanced?
3. Which is the most fun?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

1. A is easiest to use

2. A is the most balanced
3. Depends what you mean by most fun, but I would say A is most fun. C looks fun, but might lead to abuse and that will cause problems and bad feelings at the table. "A" will also grant you to possibility to use a weapon that is cool in flavor but suck otherwise. My Paladin is now using a Flail for pure flavor reason (the weapon of her God and the weapon looks cool), but crit 20x2 is not fun. So my vote is on A. A is most fun.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Interesting discussion folks.

I personally find it interesting there that the discussion swings back and forth between "this class is too good" and "this class is to MAD and that is going to cripple it".

That said, I think there are some valid points on both sides that I am going to be looking into for the final version of the Warpriest.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I think you need to nerf this class in power as it is now you have brought back the 3.0 Codzilla, or even worse. True, it is MAD, but it needs to be nerfed.

It is a 3/4 BAB class that really is a full BAB class that can quick cast Divine Power, Righteous Might or Heal and the same cost as casting quicken Divine Favor. And it got a weapon and armor that just gets better and better and it got more feats than a cleric and unlike the fighter it got tons of spells and other cool stuff.
I really hope you remove the full BAB thing and that the cost of swift casting spells costs more if it is a higher spell. A forth level spell should be higher than a first level spells (perhaps not 4 times higher, but it should cost more). True the class is MAD and only got 2 skills per level, but I still think it needs a nerf. If you do nerf it I hope you move the first bonus spell to level 2. I wouldn’t mind 4 skills per level.

Conclusion:
Nerf damage output, remove full BAB and increase cost for quicken high level spells, and add more versatility by grating it the bonus feat at level 2 and perhaps more skill since this class is MAD.


I guess no one liked switching over to crit scaling.... sigh, swing and a miss Trogdar.


I'm really not seeing how it's OP. It's basically a Paladin with more casting, but less Feat access, less immunities, and no Smite.


Rynjin wrote:
I'm really not seeing how it's OP. It's basically a Paladin with more casting, but less Feat access, less immunities, and no Smite.

^Yep. Less overall damage as well, especially as you ascend in level.


I'm confused as to why a WP of Sarenrae should be penalized for using her deities favored weapon by not gaining the damage dice increases if she wants to keep her crit range? If you're gonig to change how crit ranges work for a single class why not just change how it works completely and redo all weapons' crit and multiplier?

Sure going with option A will root out powergamers, but if that was what you were wanting to do then shouldn't all powergaming options be reworked? Is the Magus getting redone to where spells no longer work off of crit range? Are Summoners being told how to restrict their Eidolons so that they don't wreck face? Or they myriad of other powergaming options out there?

This normalization of criticals is a slippery slope to making every character played the exact same. Granted this is my opinion, but I'm not even a fan of the progressive damage increases. Sure it's a nice bonus but if it takes away from those who are choosing to use their favored deities weapons then I'm against it.

My suggestion would be, if everyone is gung-ho on normalizing criticals and weapon damage then maybe there should be some sort of exception or differentiation for those who are choosing their deitiy's favored weapon.

Overall though, I'm a huge fan of the revised WP. I liked the class before, but love it now. It fits its own niche and has really cool unique class abilities.

Okay I'm done now. End rant.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)? still is work to swap scaling damage, balanced, not fun
B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage? not easy, still not balanced, not fun
C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3) still is work to swap scaling damage, unbalanced, not fun

If this sort of weapon stat-changing approach is absolutely necessary, I think it should work like you always have an option: use the normal weapon stats as-is OR generic sacred weapon stats equivalent to Long Sword (standard 1H martial). I guess the damage type remains the same as the weapon is normally. Either option is compatable with the Rounds/Day enhancement bonus effect. There should be a caveat that using the 'alt stat' option means the weapon cannot count as a Light Weapon anymore (if you enjoy that status for 2WF, you don't need the damage dice upgrade). But likewise, I don't see why e.g. Whip users should get upgraded damage AND all the Whip benefits, while Longsword users get less benefits. Regardless, I don't really see why the damage should scale from there, if more damage is needed, give either flat damage bonus or bonus damage dice (the Enhancement ability does that limited rounds/day, but there could be always on bonuses if truly needed - not that I'm convinced). The base damage stats don't need to change beyond a basic normalization.

But really, I would prefer not having any such mechanic to alter weapon stats, if one wants better weapon stats you use a better weapon... Flavor-wise, Deities with crappier Favored Weapons are less martial, and staying close to that less-martial mold should just be less martially effective. But assuming it makes sense for a less martial Deity to have a martial Warpriest, I don't see a problem with them using some other martially effective weapon. If the Deity wants them to be a succesful Warpriest that would be pretty normal for them to do, and wouldn't really be breaking any flavor: the flavor for a Warpriest of a non-martial Deity is not the same as a Cleric of said Deity. If Warpriest are meant to stick to only Favored Weapons (even if they suck normally), why exactly are we granting them full Martial Weapon proficiency? Getting full Martial proficiency in fact should be seen as coherent with their flavor, and using those proficiencies to be effective shouldn't be seen as breaking flavor: they aren't Clerics.

If we somehow want to enable viable combat usage of all Favored Weapons including the weaker stat ones, I'd much rather see Unique Magic Weapon versions of them with awesome abilities that give a good reason to use them in combat, at least situationally. And if that's done, they don't also need to have their base stats boosted.


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

So....

1. Which is easiest to use?
2. Which is the most balanced?
3. Which is the most fun?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

1) B would require a little more work, but not too much more, than A or C. A and C need the same amount.

2) This is probably the most controversial. While high crit is the most obvious sources of concern, I think most here have also been forgetting that reach weapons offer their own boons that make them worthy of consideration over a divinely boosted kukri. Area control in the form of a large threatened area and extra damage from more attacks of opportunity help even the gap here, while 2 handed weapons will benefit from higher boosts from feats like power attack as well as strength boosts. While I was originally a bit leery of how powerful this class feature would be on high crit weapons, I think that all forms of fighting offer their own boons, so C is the most balanced in my opinion. if all weapons were standardized, I think there would be little incentive warpriests to not just default to a reach weapon, and we run into the same problem as magi have: everyone using the exact same build with no variety.

3) Personally, I like the idea of weaker weapons being viable options because someone wants to fulfill a role playing concept. Option C allows a roleplayer who wants to use Desna's favored weapon a viable option, making them capable enough mechanically while still getting the flavor they want for role playing. Other weapon mentions go to Nethys followers being able to wield the magic god's weapon into war or abadar's crossbow. encouraging complete, universal standardization greatly reduces diversity, and as a result, makes the class less interesting and less fun, so for this, my vote also goes to C.

While changes to sacred weapon are being discussed, I would like to bring up the problem with thrown weapons still not being addressed. The benefit from sacred weapon in the case of a thrown ranged attack should cease AFTER the damage and attack rolls are resolved. Desna's warpriests should be allowed to sling their knives around without being incredibly penalized for it.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

So....

1. Which is easiest to use?
2. Which is the most balanced?
3. Which is the most fun?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

1. A is the easiest, after all everything works the same

2. A is the most balanced, again everything is the same

3. Depends on your definition of fun, personally I would prefer to be able to pick any weapon for my priest and have it work as well as any other, making A my choice, but I understand why people have chosen C.

One quick note, I thought it was unfortunate this didnt get more attention, two people proposed rather nice mechanics to mix A and C.

The first: That when you choose your sacred weapon you can choose between an option of crit ranges (20/x3) or (19-20/X2).

The second: Have the crit ranges based off damage type, so maybe something like slashing/piercing (19-20/x2), bludgeon (20/x3), or even (as it is a sacred weapon), Slash (17-20/x2), Pierce (19-20/x3), Bludgeon (20/x4).

These options kind of let people tailor their stats slightly while still allowing them to pick the weapon they like best without penalty.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

So....

1. Which is easiest to use?
2. Which is the most balanced?
3. Which is the most fun?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

A. is boring, and also not really balanced. Instead of choosing weapons with high crit ratings, optimizers will simply choose weapons with other special qualities (Disarm, Trip, Reach, etc.). To truly balance the sacred weapons you would need to remove these specials as well ... and then whats the point in choosing different weapons at all.

B. is probably the most balanced, but also the most difficult solution to use.

C. is easiest to use and for me the most fun as well. Sure not all weapons will be perfectly balanced, but I don't think they will be so unbalanced to each other that we should force all sacred weapons into the same bland damage/crit-mold.

So my vote goes clearly to C, but I could live with B.


Honestly? None of those options really work with the rest of Pathfinder except C, and C is up in the air on grounds of being too abuse-able/powerful.
A is textbook homogenization. Why even have things like weapon proficiencies if every weapon the class is ever going to use is (practically*) identical?
B is overly complex and doesn't actually do a lot to solve the power issue (but would fix the possible crit abuse issue).

*-Save for conditional bonuses from keywords like Trip, and things like Reach.

And unfortunately, at the end of the day, there is still the issue that the base weapon upgrade just stomps all over the Monk's damage upgrade. If Monks can't have nice weapons because their unarmed strike is too good, then how do you justify this class getting what is considered here?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I absolutely support Option C. It is definitely easiest and I think it is the most fun, and "balance" is a really fuzzy concept at best. There are already other elements that differentiate weapons - reach, trip/disarm, ability to finesse or use effectively with TWF, and more. How far are we going to go in pursuit of homogeneity masquerading as "balance"?

The weapons - *all* the weapons - are all usable and meet a minimum level of effectiveness at this point. So let's roll with it.

Dark Archive

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Another reason I hate A as an option is its use with weapons like scythes. I have a weapon that deals 2d4 damage and has a x4 crit multiplier. Clearly I choose to use the weapon's original stats at low levels because 2d4 is better than 1d6 or 1d8 and x4 is better than x3 or 19-20/x2. When I hit level 10 or certainly level 15, I'm now presented with having to choose between higher base damage or my existing x4 multiplier. That's a choice that feels bad even if there's a mathematically correct answer. And my sacred weapon feature shouldn't ever be making my weapon worse (and I haven't done the math, but I'm pretty sure 1d10/x3 is worse average damage output than 2d4/x4 even if the non-crit damage is consistently higher), especially if I'm using a scythe because it's my deity's favoured weapon.

Scaling damage never puts you in a position where you might accidentally nerf your weapon. Scaling damage and normalized crit stats can.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

So....

1. Which is easiest to use?
2. Which is the most balanced?
3. Which is the most fun?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I'll be running a Warpriest tonight against my players, but from what I can see I like (C). The scaling damage is cool and interesting mechanic, and at this time I don't see the need to play with the crit range or multiplier.


Shisumo wrote:

I absolutely support Option C. It is definitely easiest and I think it is the most fun, and "balance" is a really fuzzy concept at best. There are already other elements that differentiate weapons - reach, trip/disarm, ability to finesse or use effectively with TWF, and more. How far are we going to go in pursuit of homogeneity masquerading as "balance"?

The weapons - *all* the weapons - are all usable and meet a minimum level of effectiveness at this point. So let's roll with it.

Two things that sprint to mind here:

1) "homogeneity masquerading as "balance"?" this isn't some all game changing issue, its for a single class who can only do this as part of their special shctick, its hardly the pursuit of homogenity.

2) I strongly doubt anyone can prove that *all* weapons are a minimum level of effectiveness, yes if you take into account the different classes using them etc, then I suppose a little dagger can be quite dangerous, you still arent going to see a fighter use it as their primary weapon. The idea of this ability (from what I can tell) is that due to the sacred favour the weapon of the priests choice functions in a powerful and specific way, regardless of type.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

So....

1. Which is easiest to use?
2. Which is the most balanced?
3. Which is the most fun?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I like option D, have one table for weapons that have low crit values (just x2) and one table (that has a reduced progress) for better crit values (x3, x4 or expanded crit ranges)

The Exchange

I like C.
I like the current scaling weapon damage (it makes the class much more appealing if your favored weapon is a dagger) and I don't really want to have to remember if I crit that my normal weapon damage die is a d6 but when I crit instead of rolling 2d6 I have to roll a d6 and a d4...know it seems silly but that's just the sort of thing to trip me up at a convention when I haven't slept for three days.... ;)


So having slept on this, and then read a few of the arguments against normalization of crit multiplier and range, I've changed my mind. I still believe that there should be some additional boon tossed to those who use their deity's favored weapon, but I think that normalizing weapon damage is enough to make the weapons 'viable'.

So to that end I have to say:

1. C
2. C.
3. C.

With an inclusion of some bonus benefit that you only get with your deity's favored weapon. Perhaps when wielding your deity's favored weapon, you could spend a point of Fervor to increase the critical multiplier by 1 (to a maximum of x4), or to auto-confirm a critical hit?


is there a good reason all war priests can't just have the die/dice of their deity's favored weapon increased by one die type? theoretically, the weapons are already balanced in the sense that certain weapons have higher/lower damage than others for a reason. this would retain that relative balance against one another while still increasing the war priest's ability to use a sub-par weapon if it's his deity's favored weapon. there's really no need for this ability to affect any other weapon anyway. the other benefits of sacred weapon are enough for any warpriest choosing a weapon for it's own qualities over the weapon of their deity.


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

So....

1. Which is easiest to use?
2. Which is the most balanced?
3. Which is the most fun?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

What if you did A, but create options

You could choose 19-20/2 or 20/3.
Add a Fevor ability to increase that by 1 step on either side of the slash that STACKS with Keen or Improved Crit. Multiple uses of Fevor could stack as well, just taking the weapon crit to the next step to a max of 15-20/4. (Taking a couple uses of fevor And rounds to make that happen. )

So a Fevor ability could turn 19-20x2 to 19-20/3 OR 18-20/2

Using the Favored Weapon of you god, automatically triggers 1 step.


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

So....

1. Which is easiest to use?
2. Which is the most balanced?
3. Which is the most fun?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

1. A or C. They are both equaly easy to use. B is a hot mess.

2. C would be the most balanced.
3. A would be the most fun. It allows for more customization.

Option A: Yes the optimizers are going to use heavy crit weapons. So what. I fail to see how that's any different then any other option in Pathfinder. Optimizers will always pick the optimal choice. The only way you stop them is to give no choices... thats boring and effectivly what C does. With option C it doesn't really matter what you use as a weapon because they are all the same. You might as well use a butter knife or a broom. Come to think of it that might be quite humerous.
A choise that doesn't matter is the same as not giving someone a choise at all.


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I like option E.

Remove the scaling damage dice completely. Leave it based on weapons.

As the class is currently written, any War Priest of any deity can use any martial or simple weapon. They aren't hampered by their deity's favored weapon at all. Simply use Focus Weapon on the weapon you want.

This means that they can pick any weapon they want to use, just like every other class, and use it with the same rules as everyone else. They also have the option to use their deity's weapon as a Sacred Weapon without Weapon Focus.

I can make a viable War Priest of Desna using a star knife with just the star knife's base stats. The scaling dice is actually optional. I can also create a great sword wielding War Priest of Desna as well.

I believe, due to the choice given by Focus Weapon, the scaling damage dice isn't needed any more.

But, that's just my opinion...

***************************************

Sacred Weapon should apply to thrown weapons when they are thrown.


@Rory: The point was not to keep the Warpriest from being hampered by their deity's favored weapon; it was to allow them to use their deity's favored weapon without being hampered by it.

Sure, with your proposed system a Warpriest of Pharasma could just carry around a greataxe. At that point, her weapon is no longer representing her goddess, though. And so one of the big purposes of Sacred Weapon - making a Warpriest of Pharasma, carrying a her goddess's dagger, just as combat-viable as a Warpriest of Iomedae, wielding a longsword - is lost.

I'd be interested to see a build of a Warpriest of Irori that both used the deity's favored weapon and was a viable melee combatant (without cross-classing). Somehow I don't see having a primary attack of 1d3 (even with TWF, at 15th level, or even 1st) as viable.


Benn Roe wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

I'm honestly not sure how anyone can think option A is any more balanced than option C. This is a seriously slippery slope of fear mongering. Any weapon you want can have the same damage, and now the same crit stats, right? So, why would anyone take a weapon without reach? Should we give all weapons reach? If so, why would anyone take a weapon without the trip quality, etc.? Where does the power gamer fear end?

Of the options given:

C is the easiest to use.
C is the most balanced.
C is the most fun.

Making the damage from every weapon standard is awesome. Suddenly weapons with nothing going for them can play with the big guns. Doing anything else to homogenize weapons strips them of their character. I'm about a 90% optimizer, but I can never bring myself to make the most optimized call when there's another almost-as-good option that fits my character's themes better. And I never had any plans for my warpriest other than a huge pole-axe. Why? Crit range and damage dice are not the only things that can make a weapon good, and polearms are way cooler than curvy swords.

Some people will squeeze damage from a class and others will make thematic choices. Let it be.

If people are really worried about the big scary falcata, then the damage dice increase should only affect the deity's favoured weapon. That way the mechanic can do what it was intended to do without unnecessary complication or stress for anybody, and good weapons still get to retain their character.

Just saying: kukris and scimitars forever

FOREVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER


Ellie the Level 5 War Priest of Irori

S: 16 D: 15 C: 12 I: 10 W: 14 Ch: 15 (20 pt angelkin aasimar, +1 WIS @ 4th)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting (1st), Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike (WP 1), Arcane Strike (3rd), Power Attack (WP 3), Deadly Slice (5th)

Traits: ??? (+1 to luck bonuses from Ultimate Campaign), Reactionary (+2 Init)

Special Abilities:
- Blessings - Strength, Healing
- Sacred Weapon (5 rounds / day)
- Fervor (4 / day)
- Channel Energy
- Sacred Weapon +1 (4 rounds per day)
- Spells (4x0th, 5x 1st, 3x 2nd)
- Spell-Like Ability - Alter Self

Spells Prepared: 5x Divine Favor, 2x Cure Moderate Wounds, 1x Bull's Strength

Items: +1 gauntlet, +1 gauntlet, +1 chain shirt

Round 1:

Ellie swift action casts Divine Favor (+2/+2 due to trait) with Fervor.

Unarmed Strike Attack = +8 (+5 BAB, +3 STR, +1 WF, +1 weapon, +2 spell, -2 TWF, -2 Power Attack)
Unarmed Strike Damage = 1d3+10 (+3 STR, +1 weapon, +2 spell, +4 Power Attack)

Note: Two attacks during a full attack (or +2 to hit for single attack).

Round 2: Regular Fight

Easy To Hit Foe - Add +2 damage from Arcane Strike
Hard To Hit Foe - Add +2 to hit from Strength Blessing

Round 2: BBEG Fight

Sacred Weapon a gauntlet and/or Fervor that Bull's Strength.


Rory wrote:

Ellie the Level 5 War Priest of Irori

S: 16 D: 15 C: 12 I: 10 W: 14 Ch: 15 (20 pt angelkin aasimar, +1 WIS @ 4th)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting (1st), Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike (WP 1), Arcane Strike (3rd), Power Attack (WP 3), Deadly Slice (5th)

Traits: ??? (+1 to luck bonuses from Ultimate Campaign), Reactionary (+2 Init)

Special Abilities:
- Blessings - Strength, Healing
- Sacred Weapon (5 rounds / day)
- Fervor (4 / day)
- Channel Energy
- Sacred Weapon +1 (4 rounds per day)
- Spells (4x0th, 5x 1st, 3x 2nd)
- Spell-Like Ability - Alter Self

Spells Prepared: 5x Divine Favor, 2x Cure Moderate Wounds, 1x Bull's Strength

Items: +1 gauntlet, +1 gauntlet, +1 chain shirt

Round 1:

Ellie swift action casts Divine Favor (+2/+2 due to trait) with Fervor.

Unarmed Strike Attack = +8 (+5 BAB, +3 STR, +1 WF, +1 weapon, +2 spell, -2 TWF, -2 Power Attack)
Unarmed Strike Damage = 1d3+10 (+3 STR, +1 weapon, +2 spell, +4 Power Attack)

Note: Two attacks during a full attack (or +2 to hit for single attack).

Round 2: Regular Fight

Easy To Hit Foe - Add +2 damage from Arcane Strike
Hard To Hit Foe - Add +2 to hit from Strength Blessing

Round 2: BBEG Fight

Sacred Weapon a gauntlet and/or Fervor that Bull's Strength.

Something to note, a Warpriest of Irori can gain either Weapon Focus or choose Improved Unarmed Strike from the Favored Weapon class feature. This is important.

Sacred Weapon says that a Warpriest can make any weapon he has Weapon Focus in or his deity's favored weapon a Sacred Weapon. So a Warpriest of Irori could choose Imp. Unarmed Strike (instead of Weapon Focus) and still make his unarmed strikes a Sacred Weapon.

With this in mind, your Warpriest should be dealing 1d8 points of damage on the unarmed strike, instead of 1d3.

Also, since you didn't choose Weapon Focus (gauntlet) you can't make a gauntlet a Sacred Weapon.


Tels wrote:

With this in mind, your Warpriest should be dealing 1d8 points of damage on the unarmed strike, instead of 1d3.

Also, since you didn't choose Weapon Focus (gauntlet) you can't make a gauntlet a Sacred Weapon.

This was an example requested by Xaratherus for a 1d3 punching War Priest of Irori. This example is meant to show that you can make a decent Irori War Priest that punches without the scaling damage dice.

The gauntlet is making the unarmed damage lethal instead of non-lethal. If anyone has a headache about using the gauntlet, they can swap the WF Unarmed Strike to WF Gauntlet.

Gauntlet: "This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes."


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I think A or C, and B is right out.

A would be probably the most balanced, but then you run into problems of certain weapons just not acting as they should. You are a warpriest of Cayden Cailean, but you are less adept and using a rapier to deadly effect, but you can pick up a scimitar and are better at using that? That makes little sense to me.

C would be the most fun, and make more internal logical sense. You pick up the same weapon any schmuck can, and the weapon acts the same except you are better at using it, because you are a gorram warpriest after all.

A final note about balance:

Let us assume a Warpriest of Iomedae for a moment, because that is probably what will be common given the lore. First, let us assume I take the standard longsword as the sacred weapon. Ok, d8 with 19-20x2. It remains as such until level 10 when it becomes a d10 with 19-20x2. That's an average increase of 1 point of damage over 10 levels. Maybe 2 if you get lucky. I'm going to be getting that much just from advancing STR at levels 4 and 8 without even factoring in feats, enhancements, using it in 2 hands, etc. Clearly not a big deal.

Let us now assume a warpriest who selects daggers. So, d4 at level 1 with an average of 2 damage, d10 at level 10 with an average of 5 damage (all before STR and all that jazz) That's a boost of an average of 3 damage over 10 levels. Yawn.

I do not understand the whole "sky is falling" mentality about this. By the time these start to make a noticeable difference, wizards are tearing the seams of the universe, people are using Lead Blades and Enlarge Person all over the place. And for the people moaning about how daggers become greatswords, they do so at LEVEL 19. When you are at the cusp of becoming a DEMIGOD. Wizards have been STOPPING TIME for 2 levels already. Clerics can call down storms of divine wrath. But, you know, that boost in average damage from 2 points to 6 points...that 4 damage right there, that's going to break the game guys.

Lol.


Long story short, keep C. It is *not* overpowered and it makes the most sense internally.

Or, if you do get rid of it, the least you could do in return is let Warpriests use their level as their BaB for the purposes of selecting feats...


Kryptik wrote:

I think A or C, and B is right out.

A would be probably the most balanced, but then you run into problems of certain weapons just not acting as they should. You are a warpriest of Cayden Cailean, but you are less adept and using a rapier to deadly effect, but you can pick up a scimitar and are better at using that? That makes little sense to me.

C would be the most fun, and make more internal logical sense. You pick up the same weapon any schmuck can, and the weapon acts the same except you are better at using it, because you are a gorram warpriest after all.

A final note about balance:

Let us assume a Warpriest of Iomedae for a moment, because that is probably what will be common given the lore. First, let us assume I take the standard longsword as the sacred weapon. Ok, d8 with 19-20x2. It remains as such until level 10 when it becomes a d10 with 19-20x2. That's an average increase of 1 point of damage over 10 levels. Maybe 2 if you get lucky. I'm going to be getting that much just from advancing STR at levels 4 and 8 without even factoring in feats, enhancements, using it in 2 hands, etc. Clearly not a big deal.

Let us now assume a warpriest who selects daggers. So, d4 at level 1 with an average of 2 damage, d10 at level 10 with an average of 5 damage (all before STR and all that jazz) That's a boost of an average of 3 damage over 10 levels. Yawn.

I do not understand the whole "sky is falling" mentality about this. By the time these start to make a noticeable difference, wizards are tearing the seams of the universe, people are using Lead Blades and Enlarge Person all over the place. And for the people moaning about how daggers become greatswords, they do so at LEVEL 19. When you are at the cusp of becoming a DEMIGOD. Wizards have been STOPPING TIME for 2 levels already. Clerics can call down storms of divine wrath. But, you know, that boost in average damage from 2 points to 6 points...that 4 damage right there, that's going to break the game guys.

Lol.

The point isn't about daggers and greatswords, it's the high crit range weapons people are more concerned about.

A kukri does 1d4 points of damage, average 2. When a Kurki deals greatsword damage, it deals an average of 7 points of damage. With a crit range of 15-20, it has a 30% chance of critting (improved crit/keen), at which point the damage is doubled. 2 would become 4, while 7 would become 14.

Sure, this may not seem like a lot, but when the Warpriest is dualwielding kukris that are dealing, on average, triple it's normal damage, it's a cause for concern.

Toss on things like high strength, power attack/piranha strike, divine favor, divine power, righteous might, blessing of fervor, haste, heroism, inspire courage, blood rage....

That damage all adds up really quickly.

The other thing is from a 'design standpoint'.

Monks/Brawlers have the highest base weapon damage in the game, amongst the PC races, however, they are 'balanced' by having the worst crit ranges/multipliers in the game, while also being extremely difficult to enhance. This has been the opinion of the design team since way back in 3E, the higher the damage dice, the worse the crit options become. There are some exceptions (such as greatswords, flachions etc.) but it is the norm.

Warpriest just kind of blows that 15 year standard out of the water. Now you've got the second highest damage dice, followed by a high crit range and or multiplier.

Sovereign Court

C all day long. C to all three.


Flamdring wrote:
C all day long. C to all three.

Is that how you answer all multiple choice questions? :P


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JASON!

I demand a scan-tron bubble sheet!


Shisumo wrote:

I absolutely support Option C. It is definitely easiest and I think it is the most fun, and "balance" is a really fuzzy concept at best. There are already other elements that differentiate weapons - reach, trip/disarm, ability to finesse or use effectively with TWF, and more. How far are we going to go in pursuit of homogeneity masquerading as "balance"?

The weapons - *all* the weapons - are all usable and meet a minimum level of effectiveness at this point. So let's roll with it.

Good Points Shisumo.

Xaratherus wrote:

So having slept on this, and then read a few of the arguments against normalization of crit multiplier and range, I've changed my mind. I still believe that there should be some additional boon tossed to those who use their deity's favored weapon, but I think that normalizing weapon damage is enough to make the weapons 'viable'.

So to that end I have to say:

1. C
2. C.
3. C.

With an inclusion of some bonus benefit that you only get with your deity's favored weapon. Perhaps when wielding your deity's favored weapon, you could spend a point of Fervor to increase the critical multiplier by 1 (to a maximum of x4), or to auto-confirm a critical hit?

+1.

Reading some of the post, like the one from Shisumo and giving this some thought I’m flip-flopping too.
1. C
2. C.
3. C.
Choosing A would make the class and the weapon to generic and as pointed out by Shisumo “balance" is a "fuzzy concept. There are already other elements that differentiate weapons". Not only what Shisumo pointed out but also reach, type of weapon damage (slashing etc.).


i also just think favored weapons are silly... as has been discussed before, the favored weapons of deities weren't picked because of how they relate to the portfolio of the deity nor were they picked to be a balanced class mechanic. the scaling weapon damage is just unnecessary. you're a war priest. pick a weapon because it's useful in battle. if you want to add some mechanic to favor people using thematically appropriate weapons, do something simple with minimal impact (like the single die type increase i suggested earlier) and use something better than the weapon your deity coincidentally uses. for instance, Shelyn's favored weapon could have been anything. the story behind it is not specific to a glaive and there's no reason she should reward a priest or cleric more for using a glaive than for using a weapon that connects that character to the ideas of beauty, art, and love. Shelyn stole the glaive because it corrupted her brother and caused the war that killed her mother. she has a sentimental connection to it that is entirely independent of the weapon type.


Thank you for your post!

Let's examine those things.

First, let's talk about the kind of stats needed to pull off this keen kukri-wielding, high strength, caster-brute of a warpriest. Keep in mind this is calculated at 19 when kukris get greatsword damage.

He'll need at least a 19 Dex to really go down the TWF line, 17 if we want to be more conservative, but considering that's his main to hit and damage he'll probably end up with something like a 22/24.

He'll need at least a 13 STR for power attack, but let's be honest, he'll probably want to have at least a 16 to make it worthwhile and keep his to hit up. However, this may be a Finesse+Agile Weapon Kuri wielder, so they'll probably stick to the 13 just to qualify.

He'll need at least a 16 Wis to cast 6th level spells and have good blessings.

He'll want a CON bonus of at least a 14 to stay alive, and for how much heat he is likely to draw, probably more, considering you are still a d8 HD.

This particular warpriest will probably dump INT, so good luck on getting any meaningful combat maneuver feats or using any skills (although to be fair he was already castrated in this way by a 2+Int progression).

And the warpriest still needs CHA for Fervour and Channeling, but this guy is probably more concerned about the Fervour. Maybe a 12 at least.

______

It is rather spread out, but doable if you buy stat items. And then of course you need to buy the Agile property for both Kukris, and let's not forget PA is lessened by half for the offhand.

This is a significant investment, whereas you could have been a 2 handed warpriest and saved feats, cash, and boosted your Will saves and Con slightly from cannibalizing DEX to boot.

Hmm...what if...


danielc wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

So....

1. Which is easiest to use?
2. Which is the most balanced?
3. Which is the most fun?

A or C would be easy to use

A is the most balanced

C would be fun for the most part.

To be honest, Either A or C would work for me, I can GM around it if need be. But B would just be a pain in the backside.

What makes A the most balanced.


What if there were a separate damage progression for Light Weapons?

Say, cap it a d10 or something for light.

It would help limit the whole Keen Agile Kukri shenanigans while still providing a boost to damage and help the Warpriest feel like they are still better at their focus weapon.

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