Revised Warpriest Discussion


Class Discussion

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Paladins also have less competition for their Swift actions (Smite Evil and Lay on Hands is it, really) so they have an easier time picking Lay On Hands than the Warpriest's Fervor.

I see some people arguing that Channel Energy should be cut (and I was one of them) but as another poster noted (sorry, couldn't find your post so can't quote you), channel energy is frequently used as a prerequisite for Cleric/Paladin-specific feats and prestige classes. Not having access to Channel Energy hurts the "combat" Oracle quite a bit since he loses out on those options.

As such, though I think the Channel Energy ability as it stands at the moment is underwhelming, cutting it completely would be a shame.


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Rocki the Level 5 War Priest of All That Is Neutral

S: 14 D: 14 C: 12 I: 12 W: 14 Ch: 14 (20 pt halfling, +1 STR @ 4th)

Feats: Point Blank Shot (1st), Weapon Focus Sling (WP 1), Rapid Shot (3rd), Sling Flail (WP 3), Power Attack (5th)

Traits: Fate's Favored (+1 to luck bonuses from Ultimate Campaign), Reactionary (+2 Init)

Racial Traits: Warslinger

Special Abilities:
- Blessings - Strength, Liberation
- Sacred Weapon (5 rounds / day)
- Fervor (4 / day)
- Channel Energy
- Sacred Weapon +1 (5 rounds per day)
- Spells (4x0th, 5x 1st, 3x 2nd)

Spells Prepared: 5x Divine Favor, 1x Cure Moderate Wounds, 1x Lesser Restoration, 1x Bull's Strength

Items: +1 sling, +1 mithril Buckler, +1 chain shirt

Round 1: Rocki swift action casts Divine Favor (+2/+2 due to trait) with Fervor.

Ranged Sling Attack = +9 (+5 BAB, +2 DEX, +1 size, +1 WF, +1 weapon, +2 spell, +1 PBS, -2 Rapid Shot, -4 firing into melee)
Ranged Sling Damage = 1d8+6 (+2 STR, +1 weapon, +2 spell, +1 PBS)

Melee Sling Attack = +10 (+5 BAB, +2 STR, +1 size, +1 WF, +1 weapon, +2 spell, -2 Power Attack)
Melee Sling Damage = 1d8+9 (+1 STR, +1 weapon, +2 spell, +4 Power Attack)

MAD? Definitely. Fun? I could have fun with the above character.


I think that's what I'm looking forward to most with this class actually - all the interesting character concepts and builds that are suddenly perfectly viable since you don't have to take weapon options into consideration.

A goblin Warpriest wielding a torch, a Cayden Cailean warpriest wielding a beer stein etc.

And I'm starting to get a a little bit worried Fate's Favored is going to be the Warpriest's equivalent of the Magus's Magical Lineage = /

Shadow Lodge

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DM Beckett wrote:
While I agree, Str, Dex, Con, and Wis is still pretty MAD.
Slacker2010 wrote:
No more so than Paladins, Rangers, Combat Clerics, Combat Oracles, and Inquisitors. I think those 4 stats is what it should be. Putting another stat attached to class feature does make it fell MAD.

Agree, and that's I think where it should be. 4 stats MAD is a good place for a balancing factor, though it truly sucks for pretty much anything below 20 Point Buy, and starts to show how the game fails. But 5 stats MAD (Str, Dex, Con, Wis, and Cha), not only is a poor balancing factor, it also drains a lot of the fun of playing the class.


For posterity... here is a 15 pt buy for the above character.

Rocki the Level 5 War Priest of All That Is Neutral

S: 13 D: 14 C: 12 I: 10 W: 14 Ch: 13 (15 pt halfling, +1 STR @ 4th)

Compared to the 20 pt buy, he would lose...

...+1 damage for ranged
...+1 attack and damage for melee
...+1 skill pt per level
...+1 to all INT, CHA and STR skills
...+1 fervor usage

That is not a stellar looking stat array. A lot of people will be turned off by not having a stat above a 14 at level 5. It remains functional and would yield a decently effective character. It just is not "sexy".

This character was meant to be a switch hitter with a sling though. That isn't the most efficient base design. You could forget STR past 12, start with a 16 DEX and pick up Deadly Aim instead of Power Attack at 5th. That would likely yield a more efficient combat character.

Making a combat manuever War Priest is even tougher than the halfling switch hitter with sling.

In other words, the class is MAD enough that options start dropping off of what is reasonably possible. That does give the fighter a niche that the War Priest has a hard time assailing. Is that good or bad? I can't say.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Phosphorus wrote:
Khazadune wrote:
I think we should all post our agreement that the class is spread too thin on attributes and is quite MAD, so fervor should be changed to being focused on Wisdom. Everyone who agrees please post something to say so and we will show how much we agree before this playtest closes and they make their final decisions regarding the class.

Currently, one of the balancing aspects of the class is the MADness. Take it away, and the Warpriest will have to lose something.

Also I see enough characters with 7 charisma, and I wouldn't like the Warpriest to go the same way.

I think MAD is a terrible way to 'balance' a class though. Because it will vary from game to game, table to table, and character to character. If a game has a generous point buy, or the player rolls well, the madness is offset and thus the balancing factor isnt there for that game, where as a 10 point buy warpriest cannot function as its supposed to. Where as the strength fighter or the wizard scale normally within those 2 situations.

Need to take something away to make it less mad? Go for it. I'd be happy to remove the blessings entirely as right now the majority of them become functionally useless because other class features do the same thing but better.

And I'd love it if casting was switched to charisma, instead of fervor being wisdom based, but thats just me and my desire for more classes with a reason to be charismatic.


Most martial classes require 4 stats already 5 if they want to use most combat maneuvers. The class doesn't seem unreasonably MAD.


For posterity... here is a 10 pt buy for the above character.

Rocki the Level 5 War Priest of All That Is Neutral

S: 13 D: 14 C: 12 I: 8 W: 13 Ch: 12 (10 pt halfling, +1 STR @ 4th)
S: 13 D: 14 C: 12 I: 10 W: 14 Ch: 13 (15 pt halfling, +1 STR @ 4th)
S: 14 D: 14 C: 12 I: 12 W: 14 Ch: 14 (20 pt halfling, +1 STR @ 4th)

That's the extreme case, 10 pt buy, and the War Priest functions and is scaling. It may be functioning as intended, but...

Kolokotroni: "I think MAD is a terrible way to 'balance' a class though."

I agree with this. I think I'd rather see Channel Energy be removed rather than Blessings for changing casting to Charisma.

Shadow Lodge

redliska wrote:
Most martial classes require 4 stats already 5 if they want to use most combat maneuvers. The class doesn't seem unreasonably MAD.

I think you and I play a very different game. . .

:)


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redliska wrote:
Most martial classes require 4 stats already 5 if they want to use most combat maneuvers. The class doesn't seem unreasonably MAD.

While I agree that some martial classes benefit from spreading their point buy around to shore up low skill points, bad will save progression etc, apart from the Monk I can't think of any martial class that actually requires 4 stats.

Silver Crusade

DM Beckett wrote:
redliska wrote:
Most martial classes require 4 stats already 5 if they want to use most combat maneuvers. The class doesn't seem unreasonably MAD.

I think you and I play a very different game. . .

:)

I think he makes a valid point.

My level 12 Pathfinder Fighter needs at least an 18 STR to hit hard enough. I need good DEX to avoid the Touch attack rays of all those casters at level 12 and actually act before the casters blast everything to smithereens. I definitely need at least 16 CON to survive frontlining. Anything under 12 for WIS is a fool's gambit I personally play with 14 so I have good perception and can actually act in the Surprise rounds. That's 4 Stats right there.

Now throw in the fact that I want to be able to do something outside of Combat, I either need to have at least a 12 INT to get more skill points and take some ranks in Knowledges (so I can assist) or I have to have at least a 12 Cha, so I can chat someone up. Granted if I decide to be just a killer, I can dump INT and CHA, but I still need 4 decent stats.

But then I have to rely on everyone else to fulfill my faction missions for me, so I'm behind on prestige if I don't get any other people in my lodge at my table.

I know PFS is different than non-PFS, but I always use PFS as sort of a baseline.


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Respectfully, there's a difference between wanting good ability scores to avoid touch attacks, get better initiative, improve your perception, get more skill points, chat someone up and survive frontlining; and requiring those stats to actually use your core class features.

Everyone always wants good ability scores because they impact how your character works - and no one can have perfect ability scores unless they pick dice with a very interesting design philosophy.

Let's use a bog-standard melee Fighter as an example:

He needs Strength to hit things.
He wants Constitution to survive being hit by things.
He wants some Dexterity to take advantage of his armor training, improve his reflex save, up his initiative and his armor class.
He should probably get some Wisdom to help with his Will save.
He would benefit from having intelligence and charisma to help his skills.

Then let's compare it to the bog-standard melee Warpriest:
He needs Strength to hit things.
He needs Wisdom to cast spells.
He needs Charisma to have Fervor charges.
He wants constitution to survive being hit by things.
He should probably get some dexterity to help with his initiative, reflex save, and armor class.
He would benefit from having intelligence to help his skills.

(Note that the Warpriest is identical to the paladin except paladins can safely treat Wisdom as a dump stat, since it gives them very little)

The key is the difference between "need", "want", "should probably get", and "could benefit from".

Every class in the game "could benefit from" every ability score in the game. That's different from Needing it to use your class features.

All that said, I personally would probably not make a big fuss if the next edition of the CRB accidentally printed the Fighter with 4 skills per level - it certainly wouldn't make the class overpowered.


@Kudaku: A War Priest doesn't "need" strength to hit things as much as the fighter does. The War Priest can accept a lower strength to start.

He wants Strength to hit things.
He needs Wisdom to cast spells.
He wants Constitution to survive being hit by things.
He wants Charisma to have Fervor charges.
He should probably get some dexterity to help with his initiative, reflex save, and armor class.
He would benefit from having intelligence to help his skills.

Posterity Note: The War Priest is more MAD than a fighter, but he isn't as SAD as the fighter. You can save 4 to 5 stat points (~ -2 STR) from strength for a War Priest. Those 4 to 5 stat points can be plowed into the 5th stat of CHA quite nicely.

A War Priest can (and arguably is forced to) skim by on a really flat stat array whereas a fighter has a harder time. This is due to being able to augment the lower stat effects with spells. Yes, a flat array ain't pretty, but it works fairly well for the class. Is that bad?


Phosphorus wrote:
Khazadune wrote:
I think we should all post our agreement that the class is spread too thin on attributes and is quite MAD, so fervor should be changed to being focused on Wisdom. Everyone who agrees please post something to say so and we will show how much we agree before this playtest closes and they make their final decisions regarding the class.

Currently, one of the balancing aspects of the class is the MADness. Take it away, and the Warpriest will have to lose something.

Also I see enough characters with 7 charisma, and I wouldn't like the Warpriest to go the same way.

I don't really buy the idea of balancing a class with MADness. That was attempted with the Monk class back in 3.5 and it rendered the class largely ineffective. The base game mechanics just don't treat a class that has to spread points out so much well. The class needs a dump stat, and since it is designed as a martial class that really only leaves us with Wisdom or Charisma as options.

You see Charisma as the most common dump stat largely because it is a relatively "weak" stat on its own. If the "min 1" rule applies to fervor per day, I already see many Warpriests dumping Cha and ignoring their Channel Energy ability anyway.


Rory wrote:

@Kudaku: A War Priest doesn't "need" strength to hit things as much as the fighter does. The War Priest can accept a lower strength to start.

[...]
Posterity Note: The War Priest is more MAD than a fighter, but he isn't as SAD as the fighter. You can save 4 to 5 stat points (~ -2 STR) from strength for a War Priest. Those 4 to 5 stat points can be plowed into the 5th stat of CHA quite nicely.

A War Priest can (and arguably is forced to) skim by on a really flat stat array whereas a fighter has a harder time. This is due to being able to augment the lower stat effects with spells. Yes, a flat array ain't pretty, but it works fairly well for the class. Is that bad?

The Warpriest is already investing less points in Strength than the fighter because he wants all of the same ability scores as the fighter, but also wants wisdom and charisma. The only ability score that comes close to a "dump stat" is intelligence. If you remove the dependence on charisma (or wisdom, though personally I'd prefer charisma) then he's on equal footing with the paladin in that he wants strength, constitution, casting stat, and a little dexterity - the paladin works well despite having a touch of MAD-syndrome.

It should also be noted that the 3.5 paladin used to cast off of wisdom but Pathfinder changed it to Charisma specifically to make the class less MAD... Making the Warpriest more MAD really feels like a step back in design philosophy.

The sentence about the the warpriest being simultaneously more MAD than a fighter but not as SAD as the fighter didn't really make sense to me - I italicized it in the quote for convenience. Did you mean to replace one of the "fighter"s with a different class?


Kudaku wrote:

The Warpriest is already investing less points in Strength than the fighter because he wants all of the same ability scores as the fighter,

I think this is the root of the discussion.

A War Priest may want the same ability scores as the fighter, but the War Priest doesn't need the same ability scores as the fighter. The War Priest can get away with a lower strength, possibly dexterity, and maybe even constitution (although CON is much more iffy).

Kudaku wrote:
The sentence about the the warpriest being simultaneously more MAD than a fighter but not as SAD as the fighter didn't really make sense to me - I italicized it in the quote for convenience. Did you mean to replace one of the "fighter"s with a different class?

A War Priest needs more stat types (more MAD), but doesn't need as high of a specific stat value (less SAD, e.g. STR).

.
Example Fighter:
S: 18 D: 14 C: 14 I: 10 W: 12 Ch: 8 (20 pt human)

Example War Priest:
S: 16 D: 14 C: 14 I: 10 W: 13 Ch: 12 (20 pt human)

The 2 less STR of the War Priest can be made up via spells (and other special abilities).


Have you actually playtested the Warpriest? While your fighter spread looks about right (though I'd probably expect to see Cha at 7 for the fighter and int at 8 for both classes) I'd argue both Wi 13 and Ch 12 is too low for a warpriest.

A more realistic point buy would be

Example War Priest:
St: 14
De: 10
Co: 14
In: 10
Wi: 14
Ch: 14

With a floating +2. However that's with a PB of 20 (the default is 15). If his wisdom goes lower his spell progression is painful, if his charisma goes lower he won't have enough Fervor to get him through the day until he's level 6 or so, and if his strength or constitution goes lower then his HP and to-hit suffer.

Yes, the warpriest doesn't need as much strength as the fighter because he can adjust with class features. However no one is arguing that the Warpriest shouldn't be more MAD than the fighter - it's the degree of MADness that's under debate. Requiring strength, dexterity, constitution, and wisdom is already a fairly wide spread, similar to the paladin and the ranger. If you add Charisma in there then you're essentially making another Monk.

And while I'll readily agree that the monk has more issues than its extreme case of MAD, making the monk more SOL (through Agile AoMF, Guided Hand etc) is a great first step to making that class more attractive.


redliska wrote:
Most martial classes require 4 stats already 5 if they want to use most combat maneuvers. The class doesn't seem unreasonably MAD.

So this martial class requires 5 stats and 6 if you want to use most combat maneuvers.

A question, What would you consider MAD?

Rory wrote:

@Kudaku: A War Priest doesn't "need" strength to hit things as much as the fighter does. The War Priest can accept a lower strength to start.

He wants Strength to hit things.
He needs Wisdom to cast spells.
He wants Constitution to survive being hit by things.
He wants Charisma to have Fervor charges.
He should probably get some dexterity to help with his initiative, reflex save, and armor class.
He would benefit from having intelligence to help his skills.

He also doesn't need Wisdom by your definition. He gets full bab with his sacred weapon, I'm going to assume his roll will be one where he has to hit things. This is part of his class just like spells are. I could argue that he will contribute more by hitting things than by spells. Therefore, STR and CON are more valuable than WIS.

Shadow Lodge

In my personal opinion, (and that's all it is), I would say that the minimum Stats I would use to play this class, and to still be able to at least basically function in it's unclear role would be:

Str 14 (even if you go with a Dex or Guided Hand route, need carry cap.)
Dex 12-14 (Init, but also Refl and AC as a front liner, unlike most other classes, you do not get a way to boost your own Dex)
Con 14 (HP, Fort, and also looking to get hit a lot)
Int 10 (hate negatives and NEED skills)
Wis 14 (no promise of gear to boost this, and concentration can be an issue)
Cha 12 (not really carrying about Channel Energy, but Fervor and a little Diplomacy/Intimidate is a must)

But here is what I would like to play with to get to the point of doing what the class should be able to (in my opinion):

Str 14-16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 14

Dropping Cha dependency for Class Features, (specifically to Fervor) would mean I would be perfectly happy with a 12 Cha and it would feel so much less boring. As is, I'm still wanting to play a Crusader Cleric (and or Mendev Priest) over this with or without any Fighter Levels. Selective Channeling not allowed until 5th level added to the fact that n Feats/Traits/Favored Class Bonuses can be taken until 4th/5th level at best added to their Channeling just sucks for both Positive and Negative means I could absolutely care less about it and the only time I would ever use it (at any level whatsoever) is if I was playing in a game that only had trivial encounters and I had some of my pool to burn (always outside of combat) before resting for the night. that's an issue straight Cleric's have past level 5 or so, when Channel just goes down hill even if you invest in it to the max, but the Warpriest's much, much weaker version is just terrible. It's basically a trap Feature, even for Negative Energy blasters types, (with the possible exception of an Undead Warpriet and an army of Undead minions, I am honestly not sure on that part).


P33J wrote:
Now throw in the fact that I want to be able to do something outside of Combat, I either need to have at least a 12 INT to get more skill points and take some ranks in Knowledges (so I can assist) or I have to have at least a 12 Cha, so I can chat someone up. Granted if I decide to be just a killer, I can dump INT and CHA, but I still need 4 decent stats.

If your fighter "needs" 12 int for skill points so does the war priest since they're both 2+int classes. If this claim is granted the war priest has 100% fewer unimportant stats rather than 50% fewer.


I'm really struggling to understand that a fighter-cleric in heavy armor "needs" Dexterity. Okay, if you fight with two kukris, I guess you need Dex 13. I can see it for primarily ranged attackers. But if your favored weapon is a bow, wouldn't you just park your Strength between 12 and 14 and leave it there?

Gaining Wisdom to initiative would be pretty cool, though. Maybe at 3rd level or something?


Kudaku wrote:

A more realistic point buy would be

Your stats listed are your preference. I like the stats I listed much better. Both are functional.

Kudaku wrote:

Yes, the warpriest doesn't need as much strength as the fighter because he can adjust with class features.

Okay, we agree on this point. 4 to 5 stat build points can be saved here for the War Priest to spend on tertiary stats.

Kudaku wrote:


However no one is arguing that the Warpriest shouldn't be more MAD than the fighter - it's the degree of MADness that's under debate.

It doesn't matter at all how MAD a class is as long as it works, right? Even if the class uses all 6 stats (we agree that the War Priest does use 5), and still functions, there should not be an issue.

The question then is what isn't working? What about the War Priest is not functioning with the 5 stats used at this time? I don't know the answer to those questions.

Hatter the War Priest of Diversity

S: 16 D: 14 C: 12 I: 13 W: 13 Ch: 12 (20 pt human)

Feats: Combat Expertise (human), Improved Trip (1st), Weapon Focus: Halberd (WP 1), Combat Reflexes (3rd), Power Attack (WP 3)

Blessings: Strength, Healing

That character is as MAD as it gets. Yet, it still works.


Atarlost wrote:
P33J wrote:
Now throw in the fact that I want to be able to do something outside of Combat, I either need to have at least a 12 INT to get more skill points and take some ranks in Knowledges (so I can assist) or I have to have at least a 12 Cha, so I can chat someone up. Granted if I decide to be just a killer, I can dump INT and CHA, but I still need 4 decent stats.

If your fighter "needs" 12 int for skill points so does the war priest since they're both 2+int classes. If this claim is granted the war priest has 100% fewer unimportant stats rather than 50% fewer.

Taking into acount the fighter only way to contribute outside combat is his skills and the warpriest have magic probably the warpirest doo not need that much a high int.


DM Beckett wrote:

Str 14 (even if you go with a Dex or Guided Hand route, need carry cap.)

Dex 12-14 (Init, but also Refl and AC as a front liner, unlike most other classes, you do not get a way to boost your own Dex)
Con 14 (HP, Fort, and also looking to get hit a lot)
Int 10 (hate negatives and NEED skills)
Wis 14 (no promise of gear to boost this, and concentration can be an issue)
Cha 12 (not really carrying about Channel Energy, but Fervor and a little Diplomacy/Intimidate is a must)

The stats I listed above were just about all on target with what you listed, for much the same reasoning that you gave. The lone exception is that I'm not that worried about concentration checks as a War Priest. That's a personal quirk of course.

DM Beckett wrote:

But here is what I would like to play with to get to the point of doing what the class should be able to (in my opinion):

You can actually achieve your stat array by level 4 as an aasimar (or a dual talent human). At level 8, you'll hit your 16 STR.

S: 15 D: 14 C: 14 I: 12 W: 13 Ch: 14 (20 pt angelkin aasimar, level 1)

DM Beckett wrote:
As is, I'm still wanting to play a Crusader Cleric (and or Mendev Priest) over this with or without any Fighter Levels. Selective Channeling not allowed until 5th level...

The swift action spells via Fervor is what I most like on the War Priest and why I'd play it. That removed the biggest burr in the warrior cleric builds I have played.

Channel Energy is a terrible feature as written for the War Priest, I agree. I predict that the 2 Fervor cost will be changed to 1, or that the ability will go away completely. I hope a change is made at least.


You're still assuming 20 pb and using a race variant banned in many home games (aasimar variants) because (among other things) they have no ability score penalties, but even so you're extremely strapped for points. I playtested a 4th level warpriest with 16 charisma and 14 wisdom (also using an aasimar variant race to make the ability scores work) and while I think in hindsight 16 Charisma was overkill, I'd be very reluctant to play it with less than a +2 modifier in either wisdom or charisma. Primarily because the low levels are incredibly painful without bonus spell slots or the extra fervor.

I still think the class would be both more viable and elegant if the charisma requirement was baked into wisdom. Really, it's the 3.5 paladin all over again.

Shadow Lodge

DM Beckett wrote:

But here is what I would like to play with to get to the point of doing what the class should be able to (in my opinion):

Rory wrote:
You can actually achieve your stat array by level 4 as an aasimar (or a dual talent human). At level 8, you'll hit your 16 STR.

Thank you, you reminded me of a point I was trying to make and forgot. Aasimar seems like the goto race for this class, with Human or Half-Orc being (really the only other possibilities). But I would not ever play a Dwarven Warpriest, despite it seeming to make so much sense, just because of the MADness and Dwarv's -2 Cha. For the normal Battle Cleric, generally you ignore Channeling anyway, so the Cha hit doesn't really matter too much. But with Fervor also tied to Cha, meh.


Kudaku wrote:
You're still assuming 20 pb and using a race variant banned in many home games (aasimar variants) because (among other things) they have no ability score penalties, but even so you're extremely strapped for points.
DM Beckett wrote:


Thank you, you reminded me of a point I was trying to make and forgot. Aasimar seems like the goto race for this class, with Human or Half-Orc being (really the only other possibilities). But I would not ever play a Dwarven Warpriest, despite it seeming to make so much sense, just because of the MADness and Dwarv's -2 Cha.

I posted a viable halfling, human, and aasimar. A dual talent human gets to pick the two +2 stats without a negative.

I also posted a 10 pt, 15 pt, and 20 pt stat build for that switch hitting halfling using a sling of all things. If that can work, just about anything can.... haha

S: 14 D: 12 C: 15 I 13 W: 14 CH: 12 (20 pt dwarf)

(the 13 INT is optional, but pretty!)

The dwarf will have it a little rougher at level 1. At level 2, he's able to swift action buff twice per day. He's able to swift action buff 4 times per day at 4th (3x Fervor, 1x Sacred Weapon). After that, he's off to the races.

He'll sport full plate, a heavy shield and a dwarven war axe. He'd be high AC and pretty decent damage after getting Power Attack at 3rd. I'd pick up the Strength and Healing blessings for him to have him have extra to hit actions at level 1 and up as well as becoming a self healing rock.

But that's just me...

Sovereign Court

DM Beckett wrote:


But I would not ever play a Dwarven Warpriest...

I would and will. A dwarf can start with a 16,10,15,10,14,12 stat line and do just fine.


Ok so after toying with this class a bit (32 pt buy) I've come to the realization that this class needs a lot of work still with this class as it stands there is NO. REASON. AT. ALL. to play a fighter, yes you get more feats as a fighter, but you are much more effective at both tank and gank. I really hope the changes made between now and august help balance that out otherwise it will take away from the fighters roll.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Michael Warren 719 wrote:
Ok so after toying with this class a bit (32 pt buy) I've come to the realization that this class needs a lot of work still with this class as it stands there is NO. REASON. AT. ALL. to play a fighter, yes you get more feats as a fighter, but you are much more effective at both tank and gank. I really hope the changes made between now and august help balance that out otherwise it will take away from the fighters roll.

You might want to try the class with a normal point buy value (15) and see if you still feel that way. But in general would you care to elaborate on how this class takes away from the fighters role in a way that barbarians, paladins, and rangers dont already? (to say nothing of druids and summoners). The reason to play a fighter is their all day (no resource requirement) high numbers combat. The warpriest cant sustain that because its bonuses (other then sacred weapon) are based on limited resources. If you want to compare the spike damage (damage when limited resources are in use) of this class vs the fighter, almost all the other primary combatants already outperform the fighter.


Kolokotroni wrote:

You might want to try the class with a normal point buy value (15) and see if you still feel that way. But in general would you care to elaborate on how this class takes away from the fighters role in a way that barbarians, paladins, and rangers dont already? (to say nothing of druids and summoners). The reason to play a fighter is their all day (no resource requirement) high numbers combat. The warpriest cant sustain that because its bonuses (other then sacred weapon) are based on limited resources. If you want to compare the spike damage (damage when limited resources are in use) of this class vs the fighter, almost all the other primary combatants already outperform the fighter.

Yes its not consistent all day but as long as they're wielding their favored weapon (aka any weapon they pick) they have full BAB and when they do have their buffs at 10th lvl I had a +21 to hit and that was using a move and a swift I still could have cast r might and it would have been more and he could use fervor 8 times a day. So for say 9 rounds (at least) it is almost guaranteed to hit and do a substantial amount of damage. Most combats don't typically last that long so at least 2 encounters per day it COMPLETELY outshines a fighter and chances are you'll save it for when it matters. That's just how I see it maybe I'm used to playing with cracky players and I see how they can abuse the hell out of this class but I see the ridiculous potential this class has.

Dark Archive

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At 15-20 Point Buy this class suffers. Fervor should be based on Wis, perhaps with a lower exchange rate for the channel (3 or even 4 fervor = 1 channel) to compensate.

Thinking about it from a crunch standpoint, you are basically forcing this class to have low intelligence at lower point buy - which pigeonholes it from both a roleplay and crunch standpoint (can't take Combat Expertise for instance.)

Thinking about it from a flavor standpoint, Cha just isn't needed for this - those members of the clergy who were both charismatic and wise would gravtitate towards (or subtly encouraged to be) full-blown clerics. Just like a mage who was intelligent yet weak/frail would avoid (or be made to avoid) the rigors of Magus training and become a Wizard or Arcanist instead.

Keeping the Cha and Wis reliance here would be like basing the Magus' arcane pool of Cha. It isn't necessary and hurts the class' options too much.


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I think switching casting to Charisma instead of switching ferver to Wisdom is the better choice, largely for thematic purposes. The idea of them being imposing and inspiring, acting as leadership in the fight and the glue that keeps a group together outside of the fight, makes the class appealing. The idea of them being a wise holy warrior makes me question the conceptual difference between them and clerics.

Regardless of what the designers do, it'll be among my rules at home.


Michael Warren 719 wrote:
Ok so after toying with this class a bit (32 pt buy) I've come to the realization that this class needs a lot of work still with this class as it stands there is NO. REASON. AT. ALL. to play a fighter, yes you get more feats as a fighter, but you are much more effective at both tank and gank. I really hope the changes made between now and august help balance that out otherwise it will take away from the fighters roll.

There is no less reason to play a fighter with the Warpriest than there was before when the Synthesist Summoner, Ranger, Magus, Druid, Cleric, and Oracle were all around.

Unless you really have a thing for heavy armor and tower shields.


Those classes didn't get Fighter only Feats. I.e. their defining Class Feature.


If the MADness goes then the pseudo Full BABA should go too, IMHO.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Hey there Folks,

As the playtest wraps up, I just want to say thanks to the folks in this thread for all of your ideas and feedback on the Warpriest. I am still combing through comments (and will be for days), and I am excited to showcase the final version when this book is released in August.

Thanks again

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
I am excited to showcase the final version when this book is released in August.

*Slips Jason a $20 under the table*

I think you meant January, right?


RtrnofdMax wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there Folks,

As the playtest wraps up, I just want to say thanks to the folks in this thread for all of your ideas and feedback on the Warpriest. I am still combing through comments (and will be for days), and I am excited to showcase the final version when this book is released in August.

Thanks again

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Wait, wha? I thought it was February.

Not even close. Advanced Class Guide is Paizo's GenCon release this year.

You might be thinking of the Pathfinder Strategy Guide in April.

Dark Archive

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The reason I don't want them to be Cha-based is because it shafts Dwarves, who would be far and away the most likely to take this class. In fact, the iconic Warpriest (PrC) from 3.5 was a Dwarf.

They don't need to be charismatic leaders. They are divine weapons - if they inspire others, it should be through their deeds, not their words. That, and it provides a more compelling counterpart to the charismatic Paladin.

Let them be gruff, brutal and effective.


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Psyren wrote:

The reason I don't want them to be Cha-based is because it shafts Dwarves, who would be far and away the most likely to take this class. In fact, the iconic Warpriest (PrC) from 3.5 was a Dwarf.

They don't need to be charismatic leaders. They are divine weapons - if they inspire others, it should be through their deeds, not their words. That, and it provides a more compelling counterpart to the charismatic Paladin.

Let them be gruff, brutal and effective.

+1 on this comment.

Besides, if the issue is allowing a Warpriest to effectively use Diplomacy then that could easily be handled with a trait similar to Bruising Intellect.


Michael Warren 719 wrote:
Ok so after toying with this class a bit (32 pt buy) I've come to the realization that this class needs a lot of work still with this class as it stands there is NO. REASON. AT. ALL. to play a fighter, yes you get more feats as a fighter, but you are much more effective at both tank and gank. I really hope the changes made between now and august help balance that out otherwise it will take away from the fighters roll.

The fighter is a bad benchmark anyways. I've personally not seen any reason to be a straight fighter when I could just be a multiclass cleric/fighter, and get the ability to cast from a good spell list and dip as much as I feel like for feats or go barbarian, once again dipping into fighter as needed for feats. The warpriest really should be compared to a martial cleric when it comes to power level. Either it needs to be more powerful than a battle cleric or offer features that the cleric/fighter will never be able to get. I'm not sure how good the warpriest is compared to a combat cleric, but they certainly do have some interesting features that makes me want to play a warpriest over battle cleric.


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Slacker2010 wrote:
redliska wrote:
Most martial classes require 4 stats already 5 if they want to use most combat maneuvers. The class doesn't seem unreasonably MAD.

So this martial class requires 5 stats and 6 if you want to use most combat maneuvers.

A question, What would you consider MAD?

Requiring 7 stats, obviously!

Do count me on board as one of the people who doesn't think that a fighter type needs two additional stats for their class abilities. Just to compare existing classes:

* Paladins only use CHA for their class abilities.
* Rangers only use WIS for their class abilities.
* Inquisitors only use WIS for their class abilities.
* Maguses only use INT for their class abilities.
* Clerics use both CHA and WIS, but only because they really don't have to be fighters and don't even need builds with high STR and CON to do things.

Following that design, I think Warpriests should only use WIS or CHA, not both. Between the two I think WIS would be more interesting. But I don't know if there's some unwritten rule that channeling and stuff has to work on CHA. If there is, just make the whole class work on CHA. Either way, the class already needs physical stats like STR, DEX, and CON. Don't also require TWO mental stats.

Grand Lodge

I have read some great ideas, but I would caution some restraint in the design so that the Warpriest doesn't become the new 'Power Build' in Pathfinder. But I have already posted my concerns earlier in this thread and won't list them again. Good Luck!


Nicos wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
P33J wrote:
Now throw in the fact that I want to be able to do something outside of Combat, I either need to have at least a 12 INT to get more skill points and take some ranks in Knowledges (so I can assist) or I have to have at least a 12 Cha, so I can chat someone up. Granted if I decide to be just a killer, I can dump INT and CHA, but I still need 4 decent stats.

If your fighter "needs" 12 int for skill points so does the war priest since they're both 2+int classes. If this claim is granted the war priest has 100% fewer unimportant stats rather than 50% fewer.

Taking into acount the fighter only way to contribute outside combat is his skills and the warpriest have magic probably the warpirest doo not need that much a high int.

First, if the warpriest uses any magic outside of combat to assist, it is hugely limited by the fact that he does not have very much to begin with.

Second, if the warpriest wants access to many of the feat progression chains he needs int of 13, which undermines every build I have seen on these boards. So effectively, he can't cast all day or well (like a full cleric or wizard)... he can't hit as hard, as often or as effectively as a fighter/barbarian etc.... he is gimped by the fact that he has to spread out his points across ALL of the stats, with arguably, DEX as his throwaway 10 stat.

My dwarven warpriest after the Dec 9th changes,

Str - 14
Dex - 10
Con - 16
Int - 13
Wis - 14
Cha - 12

Upon first seeing this class I instantly imagined I would play a dwarven warpriest whose clan worships a slave who led them to freedom using his shackles as a weapon (Dwarven Dorn Dergar, Chain Flail). After the addition of fervor I changed his points around to make him more viable and am still punished for my RP choice. (Ideally I would have been fine with taking a 14 Con and a 14 Cha) This means that I wont be doing anything well, but I might be able to keep up for the first few levels, at least until the feats and greater attribute concentration of the other classes overtakes me and when that Reflex save causes me to be burned alive by dragon fire.....


I see merit in the dwarf issue, though to be honest I see that as more an issue with the dwarf race than the class. I think dwarves should have a way for their penalty to be in dex instead of charisma. My biggest issue with them staying as a wis caster, is what separates this class from the cleric in concept?

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Oops, all threads in the ACG playtest folder were supposed to be locked when the playtest closed. Fixed!

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