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Goblin Squad Member. Organized Play Member. 70 posts (115 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 6 Organized Play characters.


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So in building a melee character for either the adventure path or Starfinder society the max level is 12. So I would like to focus on the playable levels 3-12. Having an awesome AC or other defenses at level 15 or 20 does not help this character.

I'm defining a tank build as a pc that can stand in melee a long time without help and keep the npcs off the ranged party members as much as possible. Its more of a defensive build than a dps build. There is enough dps in the party already.

Build goals
1 Bad guys on average need to roll 15+ to hit
2 High Stamina/ HP
3 high DR or Resistances.
4 Enough melee damage to not be ignored. This is not a max melee damage build.

Class ideally soldier, solarion or exo-cortex mechanic but I'm open if there is a better option. I'm open to light, heavy or powered armor.

Due to party composition and flavor it would be ideal if is a Vesk or Ysoki but I'm open to any of the non-AA races as our GM isn't allowing any AA races at this time. However if there is an awesome AA option I may be able to swing it.

Its possible that High AC is not really possible or achievable. In that case I would rather have High DR/Resistance and Stamina to last through the fight.

I understand that many saving throws are going to be failed and accept that as likely so don't be too concerned about saving throws this is more about melee toughness and tankiness. If there is room I'm totally down for taking iron will etc but I'm more focused right now on the tankiness aspect of it.

Wikipedia wrote:
"Legendary assassin John Wick (Keanu Reeves) retired from his violent career after marrying the love of his life. Her sudden death leaves John in deep mourning. When sadistic mobster Iosef Tarasov (Alfie Allen) and his thugs steal John's prized car and kill the puppy that was a last gift from his wife, John unleashes the remorseless killing machine within and seeks vengeance. Meanwhile, Iosef's father (Michael Nyqvist) -- John's former colleague -- puts a huge bounty on John's head."

I think Outlaw could also work since there is a direct link to the skills that John might use and relates to criminal activity.

He was a famous Assassin but he was only famous in the underworld, where as an Icon is more likely recognized world wide or system wide by random shop keepers and home bodies. So while I think Icon could work fine it seems to far reaching for his level of infamy.

Now what class do you make him? Is he a Soldier an Operative? Maybe Multi Classed? He seems like a gun wielding martial artists, with a very large amount of Stamina at least from the movies.

Something to keep in mind is that You will never hit anything with 8 strength. Touch attacks use Strength as they are considered melee attacks.

P. 240 Defines Melee attacks as BAB + Strength
P. 271 Defines Range: Touch as melee attacks.

Only operative weapons can use Dexterity for attack rolls and touch attacks are not operative weapons.

Also Grenades are thrown weapons and therefore use strength for the attack roll like all thrown weapons.

There is no "touch" AC in Starfinder but you do get to target EAC which is usually a little lower than KAC.

If you are going to take a feat for longarms you could instead take a feat for Sniper Weapons. They on average do a little more damage and since you are not full attacking anyway with empower weapon or spell shot the the unwieldy property is not a problem.

Also you can shoot things really far away with a move action.

I appreciate all the work you are doing with this thread and guide.

I'm curious to see the Tankarian concept you mentioned. While photon powers are clearly more damaging and easily fulfill the melee dps role I'm curious to see how much damage is sacrificed for defensive options for your tank graviton build.

Could you use the Solarian weapon in Powered Armor? I know that it likely lowers your AC and may not be optimal in several ways. I just like the image of a big glowing battle glove on the end of your power suits fist.

Please cancel my pathfinder roleplaying game subscription.
Thank you.

I didn't see much mention of the spell list. There was a decision to give the bloodrager its own spell list. Currently the spell list that it has been given is not substantially different enough from the Magus to require a separate spell list.

I would really like to see some thought put into at what level the bloodrager gets access to which spell levels. It seems to me at 4th level they should be getting/wizard spells of 2nd level power, 7th level they should be getting 3-4th level sorc/wiz spells 10th level 5th level spell and 13th 6-7th level spells... Or Magus spells for that matter.

For example I really think they should be getting Giant form 1 as a 4th level spell. The polymorph spells they have don't make a lot of sense for the levels they acquire them for what is needed in the game at that level of power.

I really think the Transformation spells, the direct damage spells, the offensive spells etc.. should be more accessible for the class. Not the divinations or conjuration (teleport) or illusions those seem to be on par with where they should be.

Arae Garven wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
Channel Energy progresses as the same pace as the Fervor heal, so 2D6 at level 5, 3D6 at 8th level, 4D6 at 11th level and so on.

I hadn't realized that. The ability just went in my mind from something interesting that I'm probably not going to use, to something extremely horrible.

I could have had two quickened spells in exchange.

I don't see the in the text that it says how much the channel energy is for, as far as I can tell it doe not say. Either way Arae Graven is correct. It is not worth it. As I pointed out before the amount of d6 healing done by fervor does not match cure spells, and two uses of fervor are rarely going to equal channel energy.

Cure light wounds quickened is stronger than fervor healing till 8th level. So you can start using Cure moderate wounds which is better than fervor healing till 17th level at which point you could move to cure serious.

The "lay on hands" portion should be removed and just use 1 fervor to channel as a cleric.

I also think that all war priest should be able to channel and spontaneously cast both positive and negative energy because they are warpriests they should be equally good at healing and harming foes on the battle field.

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With Warpriest’s other powers focusing around buffing swiftly and frequently I would love to see a majority of these blessings be changed away from also being a buffing action.

I really would like some part of this class be more active instead of a passive benefit or buffing.

Maybe I’m an action junkie but I would like to see the blessings allow you to do to special things when you attack.

Like maybe the minor Air blessing is that on a successful attack with your favored weapon you initiate a bull rush if your attack roll also surpasses their CMD. Using your Attack roll as you combat maneuver check. This action does not provoke an AoO. Greater Air, you do this in a cone or line effect.

The Earth Blessing could be a trip, Water a reposition or bullrush.

Minor Healing Blessing is that as a standard action you can make a melee or ranged attack with your favored weapon if successful an ally within 15 feet is healed an amount equal to one half of the damage dealt. Maybe the major blessing is the same but you can heal all allies in an aoe.

War Domain blessing as a full round action you can attack as though you possessed the whirlwind feat. Maybe greater is you can attack all foes in a line or cone effect with your weapon flying from your hand and then back again.

Fire you recite a prayer presenting your weapon and flames erupt from it in a 15ft cone that do 1d8 +1 per warpriest level.

I want them to be less domain like and more war like and more active.

I really think that this type of thing could make the blessings far more interesting and I wish they were a greater focus for the class.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

C is basically what most people are worried about.

I'm all for A for 1 2 and 3.

The most fun is I believe the most subjective answer. I'm all for clear and concise rules being the most fun, so I don't have to question them. I believe I suggested previously that they should all have the same crit range and it should be 20x2 for one handed and 20x3 for two handed. So I'm in camp A.

Though I really think it should only work with favored weapon of your deity. Even if it means that worshipers of Gorum do not see a benefit from this ability till 20th level.

Fervor… I like the name and the base idea but I’m having trouble with the execution of the abilities. You can swift action cast a spell on yourself, or “lay on hands”….. I feel that this just made the d6 healing “lay on hands” superfluous because a warpriest can spontaneously convert Cure spells. The d6 healing will not be better than a swift action cure light till 8th level and by then you could be using Cure Moderate. The Cure Moderate will be better than the healing of fervor until 17th level when you get up to 6d6 so you can switch to Cure Serious. Drop the current D6 healing and the implementation of channeling. Change the number of times per day to use wisdom instead of charisma. Remove the only affects you clause so that if you cast Bless all your allies benefit as well, it must still include you but not only you. The exception to that may be Conjuration Healing spells so you can swift heal an ally (or this could be a feat or Healing blessing). This completely takes away the need for channel and removes the d6 healing progression. The D6 healing is just not enough and it competes with itself. To me this option is less cluttered and more focused.


Fervor – this ability may be used .5 level + Wisdom times per day to cast a spell that includes themselves as a target or in the area effect as a swift action or Channel Energy. The Warpriest’s commitment to war allows it to Heal and Harm equally well. All Warpriests regardless of alignment may channel positive or negative energy as a cleric of equal level as well as spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells.

Note: if the spell cast as a swift action requires a saving throw to avoid a negative effect you automatically fail that save and pierce your own SR if you possess any.

Yes this means you could flame strike as a swift action but you would have to include yourself in the damage I think that is okay.

I think we have moved in a better direction. I think we are 70% there. I often think of this class as the 70% class. 70% fighter, 70% cleric, now 70% Monk and Paladin. I really don’t think this has formed into 100% of a single class. I still believe it is suffering an identity crisis. However, I have great hope that the final version will polish up and make it work.

I think the largest critique I have of this class is that everything it does can be done with money by an actual cleric. Give me a few rods of quicken, cast magic vestment and greater magic weapon. Now it does have more feats but I could pick up crusader archetype and not be too far off.

I was really hoping for a more outside the box approach to the Warpriest. Clerics have been buffing and fighting for years. Now we have a class that can do it cheaper, it seems to be lacking the pizazz of the other classes presented.

I do like the Sacred Weapon thing you have going, I think this could lead somewhere great.... I think there are obviously some problems that have been pointed out for high crit range weapons. I think the easiest fix is that if you use that weapon progression you have a 20x2 crit range for a 1 handed weapon and maybe 20x3 for a two handed weapon. The other concern I have is that it is more rewarding to low damage weapons than it is to say a greatsword. It would be awesome for this to work with thrown weapons (not ammunition) so a quick drawing Desna worshiper can throw a bunch of star blades and each is enhanced then suddenly they can be similar to a person wielding a bow.

The Iconic is a Warpriest of Gorum… Which is really truly iconic and the right choice. Gorum being the default setting god of war, the lord of blades it is a perfect thematic fit. But as for scaling weapon damage…. They do not receive a benefit till 20th level and depending on the crit range it may never have an actual benefit. Anyway I know that you are aware of the issue and will find a solution.

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Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Captain America clearly has an archetype which grants him shield proficiency. Or he elected to take it as a feat, as it's doubtful that shields were part of his standard WW2 army training.

I can't tell you how much I loved this comment today. I laughed out loud. Those lines could have been spoken by Sheldon Cooper. It just conjured this image of two people having a serious and earnest conversation about how to build a superhero. (Which I'm sure many of us have had in the past). I love the juxtaposition of the serious tone and fun and crazy subject matter.

I really think the devs should do video episode of conversations like this in a sort of Big bang like style of a "Sheldon Cooper" telling people they are wrong. Honestly some of the comments that the Devs could respond to are so off base or overly dramatic that it is hilarious. Now it would all be for humour not to be offensive which I think they have the skill to pull off easily.

Really I think the Dev team is showing incredible patience and discretion. I'm sure if I was in your position I would be too tempted to make snarky responses.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hello Everybody,

- This class is going to become the master at self-buffing.
Jason Bulmahn

I really hope the buffing mechanic is an active one. Something that combines with an attack, or debuff or something. It needs to emphasize the War part of Warpriest. It needs to be activate or turn on as fast as a ranger, fighter, barbarian, inquisitor or Paladin.

Or it is more like Holy Fury (or something appropriately named) that you enter like rage or defensive stance... but appropriate abilities to the Warpriest. Maybe similar to the current arcane bloodrage bloodline powers.

I would also like to see that you count as full bab with your deities favored weapon, like the monk flurry does.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I don't think the bard's role should be "stacking huge amounts of magical damage on a single target." The bard barely sticks its toe into the "does a moderate amount of damage to multiple targets" pool...

Then the ability you have proposed fits the role you believe it the bard should be. I do think you are proposing a valid balanced change. However, I still think there already is an aoe option in thunder caller and so this archetype seems redundant.

If the PDT does not want this ability to be a single target option then really there is no further point to this thread as the change is better balanced and more clear than the original version. Granted I stopped following this thread when things started to go in circles so maybe there was some other reason that I am not aware of.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Studied Strike. I put something together with that name before I left the office on Friday. It works differently, but it was fun seeing the name up here.

Awesome, my playtest group was just commenting in our playtest yesterday how it would be nice if there was something to replace sneak attack that used their massive knowledge skills as an insight bonus to attack and damage. Or some other Clever way to use their knowledge to boost their damage output or that of others. Possibly as an insight bonus they gain their Int to attack and their level damage. Similar to a smite, but only on creatures that are susceptible to precision damage.

I like insight bonus for this class because it sounds like it came from knowledge.

Sneak attack itself is a great ability and often under valued. It just doesn't feel appropriate. However, I suppose if it was named surgical precision or something but acted as sneak attack maybe we wouldn't think that.


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Part Two – Tomb of the Iron Medusa

We leveled our guys to 15th level 240,00 gp limit and did the Tomb of the Iron Medusa. We got about halfway through before we ran out of time. We will continue Friday next week or the week after.

Basically the same group, except I traded in my archery feats for more spell casting feats. Spell penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Heighten and I used preferred spell on cure light, Cure Serious and Heal so I would not have to prep so many healing spells. I also pretty much dumped my dex and strength to raise my wisdom and charisma to a focused caster build.

The slayer, swashbuckler and Inquisitor had lower damage output at level 15 in the first few fights due to Incorporeal creatures and elementals. The lack of precision damage was fairly noticeable. However the slayer and Swashbuckler still had power attack damage to fall back on.

Swashbuckler – So far his lack of flight at level 15 has become an issue. Next time we continue we’ll prepare an extra Air walk for him. When he could get into the fight he did pretty well, but suffered from a lack of targets that he could apply precision damage or bleeds to. That was poor planning on our part however, he played well and choose well in most other things. If we had leveled these people up I’m sure he would have had a few potions of fly or something.

Slayer – He had a switch hitter build so he could switch to the bow when flying was needed. He performed extremely well with his bow and had 2 critically timed critical shots against his Quarries. He Used a ring of invisibility, set up his “favored targets and quarries” then went about systematically killing them. Because of the amount of movement involved in some of the initial fights he was making very good use of vital strike and against the strong DR of the elementals it turned out to be a decent tactic. Had we had bless, haste prayer etc.. normal buffs that we are accustomed too he would have rocked these encounters.

Inquisitor – OMG CRAZY skills. She was the smartest character ever. She knew everything that was knowledge related. It was really nice because there was a lot of history, background stuff for the tomb. However, I think it was too much. When she is beating the DC by 15 or 20 points consistently, maybe she didn’t need to start with max INT, and spend all her talents on increasing her skills. While she still did ok damage a lot of that is because she was flying, invisible, echolocation with a holy bow. (Her normal combat/skill rogue does a lot more damage.) Again we felt that all of that knowledge and intuition should be harnessed to kill creatures instead of something as banal as sneak attack. Some form of insight bonus progression that replaced sneak attack but was still precision damage. I think it is a really cool class and I think she had a lot of fun with it. She also became our defacto leader even without any social skills because she understood everything and could guide us to the right places. She really out shone even the Lore shaman on skill checks.

Blaster/Control Shaman – Very effective, the additional sorcerer wizard spells from lore help flush out some of his damage/control areas. Lore seems very strong at this level, flame was not really impressive in its hexes or abilities because we had air walk. He also made good use of preferred spell for Disintegrate and fireball and a few others.

My Shaman – Because I had preferred spell I had a much larger variety of spells so I didn’t need to prep heals. Wealth compensates a lot for short comings at high levels my staff of life has already seen a good amount of use from Remove Blindness. At this level the Druid Spell list has a lot more flexibility for control and damage. However, the healing is still meh. Life sight is only rounds which is far inferior to the revelation of the same name. It was still hard to find appropriate spells or spells that didn’t take up a lot of area. Since I used most of my feats on preferred spell I felt a bit lacking in other things. Again it goes back to there should be an option to spontaneously cast healing spells as the greater spirit power of life it is even worse with the druid spell list as cure mod is 3rd level and mass cure light is 6th.

I didn’t use a hex from life or battle other than life sight a few times. They are just not strong enough to use an action on at this level. As I tanked my physical skills the only useful stuff I had from battle was the lesser spirit healing power. It was really a clutch ability when used with a meta-magic rod of reach spell. It allowed me to spend less time casting healing or channeling so I could do triage just fine.

There was one encounter that was basically walked over due to 3 characters with echolocation, both shamans and the Investigator. While we were all blind, echolocation made it not matter. Creatures that use sunburst and sunbeam make for a lot of blindness.

At this point in the play-test I’m more okay with the druid spell list but I spent 4 feats making it so I could function near to a cleric in healing potency. I never did take extra channel or selective channel. I still wish the life shaman hexes or other hexes gave options to get some spells we don’t have. Greater magic weapon, Blessing of Fervor, Prayer, bless etc. Divine favor, divine power etc for the battle shaman.

I know some people will say if you want to heal well then be a life oracle or cleric. However, as this was a play test this is what I tested. Had the war priest been viable to fill the role I wanted I would have tested that. However, I don’t think it is far enough along in its development.

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Part One

We play tested Sanctum of a Lost Age. Our Party consisted of five level 7 characters. We used 20 pt builds PFS rules and 23,500gp

First off if you have not played Sanctum of a lost age it was pretty cool. I liked the module/dungeon crawl. It was well written and enjoyable.

In our party we had two front liners a Swashbuckler and a Slayer. The Swashbuckler used an Agile Rapier, and the Slayer used an adamantine Greatsword. We had two archers an inquisitor and a shaman and another Shaman who was more of a blaster.

I will invite the team and DM to add in their thoughts as well. I will share my observations focusing mostly on the Shaman as that is what I played.

Half-Orc Swashbuckler – At this level he did extremely well he seemed to hit very hard and very reliably on his first hit. He was very optimized and it showed. However early on he had a bad string with no crits and no kills so that his panache was not re-filling. However, that changed after the first few fights and his rolls warmed up. This seemed like a very strong class. To me it seemed crazy that they got improved crit for free at 5th level.

Half-Orc Slayer – Our slayer did an all around build. He had no bad stats, power attack and deadly aim so he could switch hit. At this level he had no magic weapons which was problematic in one encounter. However, usually he did enough damage that it didn’t matter too much. He and the Swashbuckler did some good team work to keep things in flank. When he could sneak attack his damage was on par with the swashbuckler. He invested quite a bit in skills and I think if the class had 6 skill points it would have been easier for him to spend less points on his int and charisma. Overall this seems like quite a capable class, as long as they can get the sneak attack in they can do great damage.

Half-Elf Investigator – This class is crazy knowledgeable. Our investigator started with 18 int and spent all her inspirations talents on increasing her skill abilities. She knew everything. She used all her feats for Archery and was an ok archer. We talked a lot about sneak attack and were conflicted if it really worked well as a mechanic for the feel of Investigator. We really felt that she should be using this knowledge to help herself and even others hit harder, more accurately and with precision. It does need something about as damaging as sneak attack but that could come from some kind of monster lore like ability. After identifying a creature you get level to damage and int to attack that creature or type of creature. Make it a move action and then later a swift or free action, something using their highly deductive mind to strike with precision to disable creatures quickly.

Elf Shaman – Lore and Fire the “Blaster” Shaman. This was a pretty effective blaster. He had access to good “hexes” the Mind probe was fun and worked well. As a Druid he also had quite a few battle field control spells. He had very low physical scores but all of his mental scores were quite high. Lore seems really potent for abilities and extremely situational spells. I think it was a pretty successful caster at 7th level.

Human Shaman – Battle and Life the “Archer/healer”. I took battle and life because of their spirit abilities and my role was “healer”. While I didn’t let anyone die I found that cure moderate as a 3rd level spell is awful. So I relied on cure light my 4 channels and archery. What I found is I was stretched too thin ability wise. I wanted to hit with my bow and have some channeling and healing/buffing. It turns out that other than Barkskin there are not a lot of buff spells for druids for other people at low level. No Bless, No Prayer, no Blessing of Fervor. Our whole team missed these kind of spells terribly. I like playing “support casters” and found that I was not enjoying the druid spell list for this role. I also found that now that I had the druid spell list a lot of the Spirit magic spell slots for the more blasty spirits looked more redundant. The only battle spell I used was Wall of fire, while I ended up using all of the life ones at some point including restoration after the fight with the ghost tiger. I was a pretty poor archer even with 18 dex and a +1 bow (+1 str). I really did not like most of the Hexes available and one of them was duplicated between Life and Battle. With not being able to spontaneously cast heal spells I had to pre pare them which after playing clerics and oracles seemed painful. There should be a healing hex that allows you to spontaneously cast some heals as a cleric. In general I felt that the hexes were weaker than a witches and because my primary casting is wisdom that charisma to uses or number of times per day was not as strong as revelations. During the Behir fight and the Necromancer/dire lion fight I was having a problem keeping people alive and ran out of healing spell prepared and channels, the only reason we lived was the battle healing lesser spirit ability or I would have lost the slayer twice. As it is we nearly burned a wand of cure light wounds out of combat for this module I think we used 38 charges. Aqueous Orb from the other shaman saved our life in the necromancer and the flesh golem fight.

At this point in the play test I would really like to see the cleric list re-instated. While I love the battlefield control and damage abilities of the Druid more than the cleric’s list I felt the lack of buff spells and heal spells very keenly. I think however, our blaster/control shaman may disagree as he performed his role a lot better than I did mine. However, this could be fixed with better life spirit abilities and Hexes. Let the greater spirit ability be spontaneously cast cure spells and then I think I would not feel so bad. Also if there were abilities like the lore’s ability to add sorcerer/wizards spells to their list. To add some cleric/wizard something group buffing in that would be good. The druid is awesome at buffing animals and animal companions but we don’t have those. So there is a good portion of the druid spell list that really does not fit us thematically.

Also I did not like that hex uses were based on charisma, the witches are unlimited use (other than once per person). The life spirit channel ability should be 3+ cha or 1+ Wisdom. I felt too MAD to successfully be a “Battle” shaman. I don't think I used a life or battle hex the entire module as I always had better options with spells or shooting my bow.

Well I was really hoping that there would be an iteration of the Warpriest by thanksgiving because I’m doing a play test all day on Friday. I suppose it is still possible we may see some changes in the first post.
I would still like to see a more active class.

Blog post - Jason Bulmahn wrote:


Finally we get to the warpriest. We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game.

Honestly I would rather remove spell casting than Channel Energy. It is hard to be one of the best at healing when you don't even get the heal spell till 16th level. The same level life oracles and shamans get mass heal as an 8th level slot. Taking away channel energy reduces the chance even further that this class could act as a healer at high level.

Now if there was some other way it could do its role without channel energy that is fine or potentially even awesome.

I would love to see the blessings more like stances, or bloodrager bloodlines or Shaman Spirits. Such as each lesser blessing having an active (attack like) blessing, Buff Blessing and Spell Enhancing blessing. Then the warpriest gets a Blessing ability at 1 3 6 then greater at 9ish. You have access to all of your Gods domain blessings but when you prepare spells you can select two of them maybe more later on. The order (attack, buff, spell enhancement) could be different for each Domain/Blessing.

Healing Blessing Example


So Healing domain blessing for Attack, as a standard action when you successfully damage an enemy with a weapon you may heal an ally an amount equal to the damage. You may do this x times per day. Or as a standard action when you successfully damage an enemy with a weapon you deny them the blessings of healing and they can no longer regain hit points from magical healing or regeneration for minutes equal to your class level.

Spell Enhancing is - like the current blessing of casting healing as a swift action on yourself.

Buff Blessing is +1 per 3 levels channel energy healing or something like the current greater blessing which isn’t so great.

Then have the greater blessings be actually greater.
Greater healing Blessing Cast Mass Cure light wounds, at 13 mass serious, 16 Mass heal. or something that is great

Spell Enhancer blessing at first level, Buff Blessing at 3rd level attack blessing at 6th level.

Destruction Blessing example

Spell Blessing: Spells that do hit point damage are effected by empower or gain +1 damage per die.

Buff Blessing: Current blessing standard action to touch an ally to grant bonuses to damage for a minute.

Attack Blessing: as a free action you may designate a target as an enemy of your God the next time you strike the target with a melee or ranged weapon it is an automatic critical threat, you must roll to confirm. If the actual roll was a threat, then you automatically confirm the critical. Creatures immune to critical strikes are immune to this ability. Once struck a creature can not be the target of this ability again for 1 hour.

Buff blessing at 1st level, attack blessing at 3rd level, spell blessing at 6th level..

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Arae Garven wrote:

There are lots of interesting things to talk about. Do we think the blessings are balanced?

I'm finding the low level blessing vary in power quite a bit from each other. Also I would like for the blessings to feel more active.

The Warpriest should be out doing things to their enemies, swinging their weapons, or pronouncing judgements or something along those lines. They seem like a very active class in concept "warpriest". The standard action to buff someones weapon or give a person a bonus is too passive. It doesn't feel right to me.

The strength swift for a bonus is okay, the healing blessing swift action heals are great. They feel like something that assists them in their job and feel more active.

I think this has also been alluded to by people wanting some kind of spell combat mechanic. But I'm just trying to evaluate the abilities as written so far.

The greater blessings for the most part are more active, summoning a creature to help, making enemies re-roll etc...

Yes there will be buffs, I just wish more of them were more active or more immediately warlike. I also think a warpriest should get more of them.

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I think the signal over noise ratio is way out of hand for providing meaningful feedback for the last several hundred posts.

I think it has been firmly established that there are two main camps of Favored Weapon Vs Non-Favored Weapons.

I think both groups have expressed a strong opinion about this issue.

There is no way that the developers have failed to see that this is an issue for people.

Please let us stay on topic of the Warpriest Class. Obviously all of you want it to succeed, so lets keep it a civil discussion and move on from this topic. Please.

Lo&beholder wrote:



you get the picture.

qualls tokens

How is this different than sundering the object or killing the familiar? These are not new tactics.

There is no need for concern. This is not a new danger. If you have never faced this danger then your DMs are too nice and likely will not have the Arcanist do it either.

Wow tablet spell checkers create some odd responses edited post due to "auto-correct"

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brent norton wrote:
IS it wrong for me to see this as a superhero style pounder? I love it. But I don't understand how the knock back ability could ramp up though every 5 levels? How would a class that could that could knock back a an enemy 5' feet at 5th, 10' and 10th etc. be over powered. Did see why you had to wait all the to 20th to get a "basic strong man power". I can play Juggernaut now. Awesome

I actually think that could be a really fun image it is possible that it instead could be a series of feats. Knockback, cleaving knock back (2 targets) greater knock back (provokes) whirlwind knock back.

Though really it is just a bull rush maneuver tied to an unarmed strike without following the target. Like using bull rush strike on a crit. You just need a feat or ability that allows a standard action punch to bull rush. Then a chain could be added for cleave and whirlwind. No new mechanics created really just variations.

The distance knocked back is based on the cmd check not level because that mechanic already exists in bull rush. Using existing mechanics keeps things simpler and takes a lot less text to explain.

Since the brawler has a lot of feats it is a fun option defending a wall or bridge.

That is really one of the best things about the brawler. He gets to use all those feats that would be really cool to have in weird situations.

He is like a cyberman every time he encounters something different he can use an ability to upgrade and by pass it. Though this does mean ever time I see some using martial maneuvers I'll be temped to play a sound clip of the cyber men say "Upgrading". Or "upgrade in progress."

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Okay so after a brief playtest of the war priest.
Warpriest of Ragithiel – Bastard Sword Level 8. Power attack, did decent damage.

Basically he did not perform poorly, nor did he break any banks. I didn’t like the standard action to increase my armor. But it did help a few times to keep me from being hit. I didn’t feel any different than a cleric fighter at 8th level except no weapon training.

I experienced a lot of what people are saying. However, it was not so dramatically underpowered. I was not bad, I basically held my own. I could wish for a few changes to spice things up. Because the Paladin next to me could heal and damage better than I could.

Also action economy was not going where I wanted. Swift actions in blessings and in sacred weapon, lots of standard action blessing for buffing. I felt like I could stand around buffing all day, while the paladin just walked up and smited or used a litany swift action spell… Ohh WP should have the Litany spells. But that would be another swift action and I already have weapon power as swift.

I actually like the Blessings quite a bit and wished I had more of them and they were a little more varied. I also wished my channel abilities were better and more central…. So here is what I would suggest.

Minor blessing change… Can you make them be able to be channeled through a weapon, so if you have a sword and board you don’t have to drop your weapon to use some of the touch abilities. Though most of them were touch a weapon and I was holding one.

Let their weapon work like an arcane bond so they don’t have to have somatic components while they wield the deity’s favored weapon.

Major changes….

You start with 2 minor blessings and get an additional at 4 and 7 at 10 you get two majors then an additional at 14 and 18. So yeah 6 minors and 6 majors. All belonging to your god or maybe one every other level like rogue talents 2,4,6,8 10 etc…. As long as the blessing belongs to a domain your god uses.

Give them Channel Divinity – at level 3 you can channel as a cleric = to your level to heal your allies or you can channel through your weapon similar to channel smite. Except the damage is not positive or negative it is just damage. You can do this 3 + Wisdom times per day or whatever. Then at higher levels the smite damage can be for all your attacks of two uses or Something that will compare to smite evil but is different.

Give them full Bab or give them 9 spell levels.

Make them spontaneous paladin casters or…. Remove all spell casting and give them a blessing every two levels and D12 Hit dice…

Sacred Weapon… can you make the duration a minute? Or just make it like a divine version of arcane strike to simplify it. That way we don’t’ have to keep track of rounds or run out of swift actions between it and some of the blessings.

Just building a Blood Rager and noticed with the Arcane bloodline at level 16 that once you use the power you stop being able to cast spells. It kind of seems counter intuitive to the rest of the class. beast shape - no hands, Transformation - no casting or anything spell like. Form of the Dragon--- questionable because dragons cast spells.

Anyway maybe instead of Transformation and beastshape you go with Monstrous physique 4 or giantform 1 or 2... separating them from wild shape or dragon disciple a bit too.

Anyway - lots of fun in this class.

In trying to build a shaman for my play test I am running into a few issues. Some of them have been mentioned.

The first is there are not enough hexes, for something like extra hex feat. Primarily because your wandering spirit can change so it feels like the extra hex feat must be on your base spirit. Or you have to re pick every time you change your wandering spirit.

So maybe some of the more generic witch hexes or revelation powers would be available to all shamans either all the time or when they take the extra hex feat.

Healing hex, Flying hex, Evil Eye, Misfortune, Fortune (Not Slumber and not Cackle). I'm sure there are more in other books. I also think it may help it feel more witchy.

I really wish the animal companion/familiar ability of the nature shaman was more accessible because I think it is a really cool thing. Such as a Greater hex... but we don't have any greater hexes for this class. I just don't think it should be exclusive to nature.

I think the witch spell list seems a tich more appropriate than cleric but it should still be divine. If the shaman needs to heal more often it can take life as a wandering spirit.

Maccabee wrote:
I'll be up all night at work waiting...if it pops by 6am I'll probably stay up to read it.

It is unlikely to be posted before 10am pacific time. I usually see the blog posts arrive around noon central time. I suggest sleep that way you'll be freshly rested when you read it and it should be there when you wake up.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Like I said, they should be rays.

Thank you for clarifying that. It would be wonderful if there were guidelines for what is and isnt a Ray for things like snowball or fiery shurikens, weird words that don't mention ray in the title or text but are ranged touch attacks that do hit point damage and certainly seem weapon like.

I'll continue to promote, 1 ray every 3 levels (6,9,12,15). Ray is subject to DR (P, S or B). Can all hit the same target or multiple. No fort save. 2d8+cha. I still think this ability is suboptimal to Inspire Courage but useful in the correct circumstances.

If the PDT do not want multiple rays on a single target at all. Then the proposed change isn't bad. It is rather underwhelming and I would prefer it to be bonus damage = to bard level instead of +cha. It then would fall more solidly into an appropriate level AOE like damage power. It will not be an optimal choice but it would not be a terrible choice in the right situation. It would benefit the power to be 1 round of performance per 2 targets. It is still suboptimal to inspire courage and, this ability as an aoe competes for niche space with the thundercaller.

I feel that the discussion isn't really coming together and I'm not sure it will. The difference between "aoe" or "single target" intent or purpose of this ability is not flowing like a dialogue but rather competing monologues. I'm not sure what more can be said. While I would prefer the option of single targeting I don't think the archetype is ruined if it doesn't work that way.


Scavion wrote:

Holy Wizard coming right up.

The first level in it also allows you to take Sacred Summons, which is bongdiggity awesome.

I was also going to suggest the Magaambyan Arcanist from the Paths of Prestige. It really is a good class and yes it allows you to take Sacred Summons which works well with summon good monsters.

Summoning can be a very strong tactic but it requires quite a bit of bookkeeping. So not for everyone. However, The Arcanist pclas is pretty decent. Getting some druid spells and the good domain to an arcane caster is nice.


Marc Radle wrote:

I've always know the breakdown to be:
Winter (Dec, Jan, Feb)
Spring (March, Apr, May)
Summer (June, July, Aug)
Fall (Sept, Oct, Nov)

I live in Minnesota below is what the seasons feel like.

Early Winter (The week before Halloween through Thanksgiving)
Bitter Winter (Dec, Jan, Feb)
Late Winter sometimes called not so bad Winter (March, April)
Spring (May - We did get several feet of snow this past may but I'll count that as unusual, June)
Summer (July, August)
Fall (September, October)

James Risner wrote:

I'm still not sure or happy with much of any proposals, including my own.

I agree, the more I look at it in different situations the more I am seeing issues with the various designs. I'm sure the developers are accustomed to that issue frequently. Gaining a bit of empathy for designers is never a bad thing.

For me the ambiguities revolve around what is a "weapon-like" spell or effect. Rays are obvious... everything else is ambiguous. If things like Arcane Strike, Good Hope, Inspire Courage etc work with the ability then the base damage can't be too high or the bonuses will make the ability overpowered. If they do not then for the ability to be meaningful or useful the base damage needs to be much higher than the stated power to be worthwhile.

Also if it does not have the ability to do decent single target damage then it will rarely if ever have a worthwhile use.

I'm still in the boat with 2d8+cha "rays" at 6,9,12,15. Susceptible to DR (Slashing/Blunt/Piercing) Ranged touch. It would be great if the range increased by 10ft with each additional ray but life will go on without it. "Rays" aka words can be fired at single or multiple targets.

I don't love that answer but I'm okay with it.


Well if you are looking at trends...

Advanced Player's Guide playtest come out on a Friday November 2009.
Ultimate Magic playtest came out on a Monday September 2010.
Then Advanced Race Guide playtest came out on a Tuesday in October 2011.
Then Mythic playtest came out on a Wednesday in November 2012.

So either it will come out on a Thursday or it will come out in December with the first playtest being an outlier.

However, either way it will come out when Paizo thinks that it is ready to come out.

Devilkiller wrote:

@Golo - I'm not really trying to optimize Weird Words to hit as hard as an optimized Sorcerer's Scorching Ray

I'm not really either. I'm just trying to create parity between the examples. If you look back I suggested using a non optimized way of calculating the data. James indicated that it was not a valid way to him to calculate that way. So I said fine then both need to be optimized or it is not a fair comparison.

I'm just looking for a fair comparison.

It would be nice if the ability could do decent single target damage to do that it would need to be limited to 3 or 4 words that could hit the same target.

At this point take the proposed change but instead of 1 word per level max 10 put 2 words at 6th and an additional word every 6 levels max 4 at 18th, remove the only one per target limitation. So the damage and the number of bolts grow.

Hitting lots of targets each once is less useful than hitting one Several times in my opinion. There are AOE spells that do a much better job of it.


pirate Monaghan wrote:

Back to this again. With Elusive Target at 11th level and up if i pass my reflex save to dodge the damage, does the attack count as missing me for purposes of the snake fang style feat?

I have a ridiculous 20th level goblin monk trip and huge number of attacks build, and if elusive target counts as them missing on my successful save, it gets dirtier.


you are evading damage and sending it to the person behind you. But if the Attack Missed you it would not be necessary spend the 2 ki points to do all of that.


James Risner wrote:

My view is limit the best optimization results is a better tactic.

Non-normalized basic math suggests Scorching Ray is better than it is.How well it works (or doesn't work) at level 20 isn't important.

Ok, how about instead of ignoring higher level spells we just make sure the Bard can't use this ability more than 6 or 8 times a day regardless of how many rounds of performance he has. Fair?


Okay I can go with optimization if you optimize the scorching ray. I think that would be fair. Keeping it more of a realistic comparison. So that would be a orc/draconic (gold) sorcerer with point blank, weapon focus ray, flagbearer, precise shot. Hmm maybe only a +2 charisma item since charisma does not help damage in this case. Then I have enough money to get Banner of the ancient kings. Now each ray does 4d6+11 without any rounds spent buffing. If the target is in point blank range. I still have it 8 times per day. (if we spend rounds buffing there is no end to where this could go)

Sure we can do normalized damage as long as the weird words normalized damage is about equal to Scorching Rays at 6 9 and 12 data points. Since we are re-writing the power its balance could scale past level 10 to 11/12 like scorching ray. Which in general I think would make it more palatable to people. Also Devilkin also seems to be pointing in that direction as well getting us all more or less lined up. I also agree what it does at level 20 is likely not so important.

I think that it must use rounds of bardic performance. I'm willing to say that using the ability uses up to 3 rounds of bardic performance. This goes with your analysis of 2nd level slots vs rounds of performance (using either 17 charisma or 26 charisma for both). I still think this is an apples and oranges comparison but, I can compromise on that issue I don't think 3 rounds is unreasonable for a scorching ray like effect.

It is still a standard action... There are only so many standard actions in a fight. Most bards I know (even heavy damage ones) are spending at least one round casting haste or good hope or something control oriented before they do damage.


James Risner wrote:

I intentionally ignored the higher level slots because you would be using higher level abilities. The Bard presumably would have other options too.

I modeled both DPR's to be normalized.

So it "feels" like a wasted action for many players.

If you presume they have other options then I think you would need to not use all of their rounds of bardic performance in a similar ratio.

Ignoring the higher spell levels creates a false comparison not to mention that 6 Slots at level 8 is assuming a charisma of 13 vs 26 for your damage computation for the bard. Which also is a comparison weighted against the striker. It is not a fair comparison.

If I was a game designer I would start with a standard ability array for a PC such as the elite array so that would be 15 charisma +2 for level 4 and 8 which is 17.

With a charisma modifier of +3 and using 21 rounds of music to = 18 spell slots as far as I'm concerned or 7 for you since you were ignoring the higher level abilities. Where does that put us?

Now non normalized super basic math (because it is easier for me to understand) we should be equaling 4d6 from two rays. Divide by 3 for you 7 vs 21 comparison and you are close to 1 round for 2d6+3.. now do the math not ignoring the extra slots and you get 1 round is = 24 damage which is 85.7% of 28 average non-normalized damage or something close anyway. So then for 1 round of music it is close to 2 attacks at 2d8+3 or 2d10+3 if you increase the miss chance for a second attack each. A single attack it is like 4d10+3. I do feel strongly that like scorching ray all of the rays or words can hit a single target.

Actually the more I look at the math the less it makes sense to me. However, do you see what I mean James about creating a fairer comparison? If you do the comparison that they both have 17 charisma it seems fairer to me and less unrealistic. Clearly your Math-fu is more advanced and maybe I'm way off base but I don't think I am, of course it is likely you'll prove me right or wrong one way or the other.

However, there does need to be a limit of the # of words or the damage will again skew highly due to buffs and high charisma. I think sending 1 to 4 attacks at one creature or multiple creatures is not too onerous, but more than that and it gets to where we are now where its "too many dice complaint." - Which as an aside I only understand from the DM and making all those saves... as a player a wizard using polar ray and disintegrate etc... are using a lot of dice. A ray or word at 6 8 10 12 or 6 9 12 15 seems appropriate. I included a 4th because at higher levels it will scale better since it is unlikely the sorcerer will still be using a 2nd level power frequently at that point. Heck at that point they are using Contagious Flame and that is way better use of a standard action.

People may feel like inspire courage is a wasted action but the math does not indicate that and you are justifying the changes by math. So I do not find that as compelling an argument as the rest of what you are saying.

James Risner wrote:

Let us calculate /day uses.
Sorcerers get 6 2nd level spells a day.

I think if you are going to make the analysis that you are making you needs to be more complete. Sorcerers also get 3rd level and 4th level etc slots that can also be used to cast that spell so that is not an accurate assessment not to mention bonus spells for high charisma. A sorcerer with 26 Charisma has 8 2nd level spells per day, 7 3rds and 5 4ths. So that is essentially 20 times per day at 8th level they can cast the spell not 6. Which indicates to me that is is 20 vs 26 times per day. Same charisma at level 12? Bard 34 rounds and Sorcerer 34 times as well. 18th level the sorcerer has pulled ahead.

You may say well that is unreasonable no one will spend all their slots on one ability.... but that is what you are indicating the bard is doing.

James your Math-Fu is much greater than mine I see a lot of comparisons some have buffs like good hope etc.. and some don't. Also people are not going to use an ability on a creature that is resistant to it. They will use a different ability. DPR of scorching ray on non resist creature is 40ish at level 12 and 26sh at level 8. To a single target because multiple rays hit the target.

Are your calculations only one ray because then you are not matching scorching ray at 8th level, you are matching it at 4th level ability.

With scaling abilities I think there needs to be a data point at various levels. If the ability scales which scorching ray does you need to see the point at 4th 7 and 11th caster levels. or 4 8 12 in this instance.

I like your reverse engineering idea.. I just feel like it does not completely match the ability as well as it could be matched. ie 1 ray, 2 rays and 3 rays that scorching ray is capable of. Even if sound striker is only 1 ray ever. It should be comparable dpr.

As a side note unless weird words are nearly as good as inspire courage it will not be a very useful ability unless you happen to be alone. It needs to be a viable option or you might as well not even bother. Inspire Courage transforms a team and will out shine so many abilities due to the bonus to hit alone.

James Risner wrote:

I've redone my final original SS ability adding in Lingering Song Inspire Courage.

Sound Srtiker
** spoiler omitted **

Can we all agree the original ability was broken and too powerful? So we can direct the discussion away from any more people saying "keep it as it was" or giving suggestions that put DPR in this range (25 or more) without using much more than 1 round of a performance? Everyone agree?

No we can not all agree that the original power was over powered. Because people still don't agree on how it worked.

By Lingering song I am guessing you mean Lingering Performance. It does not work the way you think it does. Please read the entire ability, it will not add damage to weird words unless you have virtuoso performance or shadow bard running.

Feat text


Lingering Performance
The effects of your bardic performance carry on, even after you have stopped performing.
Prerequisite: Bardic performance class feature.
Benefit: The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.

I think the it is entirely appropriate that Damage is similar to Scorching Ray or Fiery Shuriken. But those abilities have no save and no DR. So that will need to factor into the new ability if Weird Words is effected by a save and DR. I think I already posted make it work like Sonic version Fiery Shuriken. That seems really simple adaption except they must all be fired at once in stead of left floating around the head of the person. Both abilities scale with level and neither of them are game breaking.

I think that this ability was inspired by Dune, particularly the original movie version.
"I remember your gom jabbar, now you'll remember mine. I can kill with a word." - Paul
It was an extremely lethal ability that I think inspired this archetype. So I would prefer that the ability be worthwhile, since I happen to be a big fan of that old movie.


SKR - I don't think that you will find community consensus on this option, I'm not sure that is possible on any issue that is subject to interpretation.

The current rule proposed is very conservative in its approach to damage and resources. I think you need to find the sweet spot between it is so great every bard will take it and it is so bad no one will take it. Currently it is on the pretty darn poor side. Unfortunately nearly every suggestion has been even more complicated than the original wording.

It replaces Suggestion which can easily be a save and win or useless ability and it should be "roughly" equivalent. Suggestion for a round of performance is a very powerful ability likely one of the most powerful ability as the DC scales and suggesting some one surrender or go home, or jump in a lake is an easy way to end combat.

The only spell that I can think of that is similar to how weird words was worded is Fiery Shuriken. Maybe the power should take inspiration from that spell it is roughly a 2nd(ish) level spell like Suggestion. Granted it is different as a spell and energy damage. So maybe as Fiery Shuriken but sonic damage. Nice and simple and using existing rules.

I think the related issue here though which really blows up the weird words problem is what abilities can be added to a weapon-like spell (or effect) and what can not. How are they different from projectiles and does anything that is not a "Ray" count. People are married to the word Ray and I think maybe it should be clarified one way or the other.

Such examples earlier in this thread are using Arcane Strike, Inspire Courage, Good Hope to up the damage because it takes a ranged attack roll and does hit point damage etc. etc. etc... Due to the FAQ of Inspire courage affecting Ray spells. http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9oag is a fiery shuriken a weapon like spell to gain those effects or only rays Rays?

PS - SKR next time you get a writing block please listen to the following. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DDdM66_nSI I Love "Die Vampire Die!" from title of show and thought you may too.

Infernal Healing and Greater infernal Healing are available to be used by the wizard and arcane archer. It is great out of combat healing.

The easiest to me seems to be to take Leadership, and get a cohort who heals.

The group I play with is starting Rise of the Rune Lords anniversary edition campaign and I am planning on playing a bard. Our party consists of an Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle of Time, Evoker Admixture Wizard, Two-handed Fighter, Melee Inquisitor and myself a bard. We expect to get to about 18th level by the end of the adventure path. I'm Focusing on Super Buffing ... am I missing anything good?

I plan on going with a human bard with the following stats with human bonus in Charisma.
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 16

As I level up I will put my bonus stats in Charisma. I will take the alternate race feature Focused Study for the skill focus feats at 1, 8 and 16. I'm going to take the human favored class bonus of extra spells known.

I plan on using a long spear and fighting from behind the Inquisitor and fighter. I also want a reach weapon because I plan to have the Flagbearer feat and get or make a Banner of the Ancient Kings.

I am going to take the Pitax: Academy of Grand Arts and Sound Striker archetypes. With the plans to take eldritch heritage Imperious Bloodline which gives two great abilities for a bard.

Imperious Bloodline Gives


Heroic Echo (Su): At 3rd level, when you receive a morale bonus from any spell, spell-like ability, or magic item, including those you cast on yourself, that bonus increases by +1. At 9th level, this ability also applies to competence bonuses. If you receive a morale effect (or a competence effect at 9th level) that affects an area or multiple targets, as an immediate action you can share your increased bonus with all other recipients. This increase to other participants lasts a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus. You can use this ability once per day, plus one time per three levels after 3rd.


Heroic Legends (Su): At 15th level, you may inspire greatness or inspire heroics as a bard of your sorcerer level by sacrificing a spell slot as a swift or move action. The effect lasts a number of rounds equal to the sacrificed spell's level; this duration is doubled for human recipients.

So the build will look like the following

Human Bard 18 - Sound Striker and "Focused Performer"
Traits Reactionary, Eager Performer (campaign trait)
1) Bard – Flagbearer +1, Skill focus (Perform Oratory) Inspire Courage +1
2) Bard – Extra Performance (Oratory)
3) Bard – Word Strike, Arcane Strike
4) Bard –
5) Bard – Master Performer – Inspire courage +3
6) Bard – Weird Words
7) Bard – Eldritch Heritage (Imperious) – "Student of Humanity"
8) Bard – Skill Focus (Diplomacy) – Extra Perform Oratory
9) Bard – Grand Master Performer Inspire Courage +4
10) Bard – Masterpiece Life Budding in Salted Earth (3rd level spell known)
11) Bard – Improved Eldritch Heritage (Imperious) "Heroic Echo" Inspire courage +6 Flagbearer +2
12) Bard
13) Bard – Discordant Voice
14) Bard – Extra Perform Oratory
15) Bard – Craft Wondrous Items banner of the ancient Kings Inspire courage +7 Flagbearer +3
16) Bard – Masterpiece Clamor of the Heavens (5th level spell Known), Skill Focus (Bluff)
17) Bard – Greater Eldritch Heritage "Heroic Legends"
18) Bard

Tactics for Higher level.


Once I can cast Virtuoso performance I will be using that to have inspire courage and Weird words going each round. Then When I can cast Shadow Bard I will also have that doing the Masterpiece Life Budding in Salted Earth for extra healing. So I will have 3 bardic performances going at the same time. Then with either a swift or a move (at level 17) I will also be adding in Inspire heroics with spell slots (from the Heroic Legends Power). Since most or all of my companions count as human it is usually extended, and master/grandmaster performer increases the bonus by 2 it is +6 ac and saves. So basically 4 bardic songs going plus flagbearer at +3.

This should be some crazy buffs and pretty good damage with weird words.

Are there feats I'm not taking or other ways to have additional songs going at one time? Are there better buffs to be using?


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Everytime the Blog post is a little late, I get excited that it is being delayed because they are putting up the playtest.

I'm curious that there hasn't even been a leak about what the next last few classes are going to be.

Monk, Sohei: Can a sohei use flurry of blows while wearing light armor?
Yes (but not medium or heavy armor). However, a sohei does not gain his monk AC bonus class feature when wearing armor.

The next printing of Ultimate Combat will be changed to reflect this ruling.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 10/23/13

How do you think this will change your advice on the Coi builds that use Sohei.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Anyone know of others, or where such a list exists?

I think people often forget this part of the invisibility text.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack.

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 3 people marked this as a favorite.

The problem with ray spells is that "effect: Ray" is not used consistently.

For example Continuous Flame doesn't have Effect Ray it has Targets 3 or more rays. and the Text says you fire Rays... But at no point do you target rays, you target creatures....

Ray as a category is extremely poorly designed category. I feel like it should be weapon focus (Touch Spell) or (Ranged Touch Spell) would be more applicable due to the fact that spells are not categorized well in terms of Rays or similar effects. Weapon Focus (Ranged Touch Spell) would include a lot more spells.

Additional ray spells

Contiguous Flame
Blinding Ray
Elemental Assessor
Searing light

Gloombolts? --- it reads like a ray - like scorching ray but it is called bolts. What are bolts....? Lightning bolts and call lightning are aoes.. this is a ranged touch attack... does it count as a ray?

Deafening Song bolt? are these rays?
Blood Crow Strike? bolts again..
Shards of Chaos - bolt and shard

Then there are spells like...
Vengeful Comets
Fiery Shurikens

Mechanically all of these spells are ranged touch attacks that result in damage or a condition and are weapon like bolts, rays comets, shurikens.... you should be able to get a weapon focus for ranged touch spells.


If you have access to the Faiths and Philosophies book there is a new druid domain that is very interesting. Crocodile. It does give you a death roll ability like a crocodile which is fun if you are going to do any grappling as a naga. Visually I could see you wrap your coils around someone and roll around.

Also it gives you Sneak attack at level 6 and every 5 levels after. The spells are pretty good too.

Domain Spells: 1st—touch of the sea APG, 2nd—savage
maw ARG, 3rd—water walk, 4th—strong jaw APG, 5th—legend
lore, 6th—mass owl’s wisdom, 7th—true seeing, 8th—mass
heal, 9th—regenerate.

Rory wrote:

For comparison:

S: 17 D: 14 C: 14 I: 10 W: 8 Ch: 16 (20 pt angel-blooded aasimar)
S: 16 D: 16 C: 14 I: 10 W: 8 Ch: 14 (20 pt azata-blooded aasimar)
S: 16 D: 14 C: 14 I: 10 W: 8 Ch: 16 (20 pt demon-spawn tiefling)
S: 17 D: 16 C: 14 I: 10 W: 8 Ch: 14 (20 pt dual-talented human)

...+5 cold/acid/electric resistances
...spell-like ability (1/day) (Alter Self or Glitterdust is nice)
...skill bonuses to Perform = Versatile Performance Gold (azata)

...+4 Bluff bonus when telling a lie? fun!
...bite attack
...prehensile tail to swift action draw potions, scrolls, wands, etc.
...+1 natural armor and 5 fire resistance

The tiefling bard might be your best bet. That "free" bite attack is boosted a lot via bardic performance, arcane strike, and other buffs.

Well Aasimar does have the most broken alternate favored class options.

"Choose one bardic performance; treat the bard as +1/2 level higher when determining the effects of that performance."

So a 12th level bard functions as 18th level bard for say... Inspire Courage. This works really well for Dawnflower Dervish.

Do the Dervish of Dawn archetype. It is very selfish for bard song but it works very well and starts with Dex to damage at first level.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/dawnflower-dervish

It is from inner sea Magic book.

Well there is a Trait Glory of the Old which is a +1 trait bonus the dwarven save bonuses. It seems like a good synergy.

Also since Rift warden loses 3 caster levels.. there is magical Knack which will increase your caster level by 2 upto your hit dice.

I would take improved Counterspell because currently all you can counterspell (quickly) are summon monster Spells and SLAs.

Obviously Quicken will be very useful when you don't have a lot of time to buff.

Getting Divine Favor as an SLA would be handy as I can't think of many wizard spells that give a luck bonus.

AS a Magic slinging Slugger you can have an extremely high bonus to hit and even damage if there is time to buff. What you will lack is Iterative attacks. You could switch in some EK levels if you wanted to. However, that would lose even more caster levels. The other option is Hellknight enforcer/Signifier but that would require Arcane Armor straining and Medium armor.

Is there a reason you are going Transmutation? The Rift Warden plays into the wheelhouse of an Abjuration specialist with counterspell and improved counterspell, etc... This could really open up things like Destructive Dispel, and Dispelling Critical are a fun combo. you could still do them of course as they are still thematically appropriate. If you do take those feats consider Preferred Spell - Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic.

Hmm With a Low BAB you may want to look into Cleave line of feats. I think the Mythic Cleave is pretty good. Also there are the Dwarven Cleave feats, Goblin Chopper, Orc and Giant etc.. to allow multiple cleaves. While it will not improve single target damage it will allow for more attacks each round if there are enough opponents. Also I think they are fun dwarven feats.

Just some thoughts. You should be fine as long as you can buff.

This could be a lot of fun but I agree as is there is little use for it.

It is better just to cast Strangling Hair the 3rd level spell.

Is is sad that the 3rd level spell will always be better than the witch haired witch.

WHW should use Int and caster level in place of str and bab for the hair.


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