Revised Warpriest Discussion

[Dispari Scuro]

Ruggs wrote:

One major concern, here. That is: a monk is never a class I suggest to new players. Aside from its theme not matching the mechanics (it suggests a wise, dexterous character but you really do need strength instead), it also has this "fluxing BAB."

Fluxing BAB adds book-keeping. In addition, there are so many things tied to BAB that have to be recalculated, aside from number of attacks.

I'm not arguing "math is hard," I'm arguing ease of use and introduction, and time taken recalculating a character sheet. I'd rather see something like a scaled Wis-to-hit than a fluxing BAB...it's easier to explain and handle ingame.

Themewise, I can see flux fitting the class. If there's another option that reduces MAD...and bookkeeping, however, please consider it.

Well for monks, their BAB can change from one round to the next. It depends on if they're flurrying or not. Their BAB is different for a full attack than it is for an AoO (usually). That's definitely extra work.

A warpriest's "BAB" would never change as long as they're always using the same weapon(s). It would only change if they draw a different weapon that they don't have Weapon Focus in. It's a lot more static than a monk, and easier to keep track of.

[Robert Little]

Rory wrote:

Robert Little wrote:

I'd rather that these issues were addressed in the base class (allow ranged special abilities, allow for thrown favored weapons, and probably allow for Fighter feats, even if at a reduced level) so that they can pursue other archetypes, rather than potentially every Warpriest of Erastil being a Holy Archer archetype.

Can you clarify your concern for me?

A thrown dagger as a sacred weapon still does the bonus damage dice though...? It is only the Sacred Weapon +1 bonus effects that are not applied to a thrown dagger as far as I read.

Since Sacred Weapon +1 effects are for so brief of rounds, this really doesn't play a big affect until say... level 8 when you can do a +2 bonus effect for 8 rounds per day.

Is that the way you are understanding it?

I understand that the level based damage and increased BAB would apply to thrown weapons, but as written the enhancement/special abilities from sacred weapon leave the weapon as soon as it leaves the users hand. So you throw a +1 flaming dagger and it extinguishes as soon as you throw it. If they intend for the special abilities and bonuses to remain on a thrown weapon until it hits/misses its target, they need to clarify the language for the ability.

Second, the limited duration of the ability isn't a big deal, but what can be a big deal is if you are a thrower who is using weapons that don't have the returning ability. It means you have to spend a swift action every round (giving up uses of fervor or blessings) to re-enchant your next dagger to throw (melee users only have to use a swift action to start the ability; they don't have to continue to do so to maintain it). Which is why at the very least they really need to consider adding returning to the list of possible special abilities.

Rory wrote:

My example Holy Archer of Erastil was pretty decent in melee too. Erastil War Priests get Sacred Weapon with longbow naturally, so can go Weapon Focus Great Sword at level 1 to get both a ranged and melee attack with Sacred Weapon. Was that intentional? I don't know.

The firing-in-melee thing is a corner case and could entirely be best suited for an actual archetype for characters who want to pursue that particular kind of ranged character. I was just including it with the other potential issues I saw with ranged themed Warpriests.

[Solidchaos085]

First off: LOVE the update
But I'm going to have throw my hat into the "sacred weapon damage should only apply to the deity's favored weapon" camp, as it is, there's too much potential for players to select weapons like the scimitar for the high crit range. It'll probably send more players into being Sarenrae warpriests, and that's fine, I'm more for flavor anyway (the fact that this helps control the potential abuse of ANY weapon focus is a plus)

[LadyWurm]

Solidchaos085 wrote:

First off: LOVE the update

But I'm going to have throw my hat into the "sacred weapon damage should only apply to the deity's favored weapon" camp, as it is, there's too much potential for players to select weapons like the scimitar for the high crit range. It'll probably send more players into being Sarenrae warpriests, and that's fine, I'm more for flavor anyway (the fact that this helps control the potential abuse of ANY weapon focus is a plus)

Absolutely not, as that would kill a lot of the appeal. However, for the sake of balance, what if the Sacred Weapon provided a crit range and multiplier of its own?

[Robert Little]

Actually, now that I think about it more, they really need a thrown weapons archetype regardless, if only for an ability that lets them use their sacred weapon ability on all thrown weapons for a round (melee usres can get their full attack with all their bonuses, projectile weapons can as well, but thrown weapons get a single attack with all the bonuses and then its gone.)

[Solidchaos085]

LadyWurm wrote:

Solidchaos085 wrote:

First off: LOVE the update

But I'm going to have throw my hat into the "sacred weapon damage should only apply to the deity's favored weapon" camp, as it is, there's too much potential for players to select weapons like the scimitar for the high crit range. It'll probably send more players into being Sarenrae warpriests, and that's fine, I'm more for flavor anyway (the fact that this helps control the potential abuse of ANY weapon focus is a plus)

Absolutely not, as that would kill a lot of the appeal. However, for the sake of balance, what if the Sacred Weapon provided a crit range and multiplier of its own?

If I may, the appeal of the class was it's increased dpr with sacred weapon, as it was mentioned, some deities wouldn't even HAVE warpriests so the argument about weapon choice could very well mean nothing if that deity doesn't have the class in the first place (Shelyn comes to mind, possibly Erastil too)

I understand that some players like choice, but I see this as a role playing game, sometimes you must sacrifice choice for what makes sense in the setting. I could see an archetype that allows you to choose any (and if that doesn't appeal, there is the option to not follow a deity and choose your own blessings AND sacred weapon)

[Dispari Scuro]

LadyWurm wrote:

Solidchaos085 wrote:

First off: LOVE the update

But I'm going to have throw my hat into the "sacred weapon damage should only apply to the deity's favored weapon" camp, as it is, there's too much potential for players to select weapons like the scimitar for the high crit range. It'll probably send more players into being Sarenrae warpriests, and that's fine, I'm more for flavor anyway (the fact that this helps control the potential abuse of ANY weapon focus is a plus)

Absolutely not, as that would kill a lot of the appeal. However, for the sake of balance, what if the Sacred Weapon provided a crit range and multiplier of its own?

I believe the devs said they were going to consider the crit aspect as part of the balance. They haven't said they were going to do anything specific, but were monitoring it to see if it needs to be addressed.

I agree however that limiting to deity weapons only is the wrong way to go about it, not only because it limits character design but doesn't even solve the problem -- people would just flock to whatever deity has the best crit range weapons.

[Slacker2010]

Dispari Scuro wrote:

Well for monks, their BAB can change from one round to the next. It depends on if they're flurrying or not. Their BAB is different for a full attack than it is for an AoO (usually). That's definitely extra work.

A warpriest's "BAB" would never change as long as they're always using the same weapon(s). It would only change if they draw a different weapon that they don't have Weapon Focus in. It's a lot more static than a monk, and easier to keep track of.

While you are correct in response to your weapon attacks, what happens with CMD and CMB and other factors that respond to BAB? It would be extra book keeping. Your CMB would be different on a disarm vs a grapple.

[Nicos]

Solidchaos085 wrote:

First off: LOVE the update

But I'm going to have throw my hat into the "sacred weapon damage should only apply to the deity's favored weapon" camp, as it is, there's too much potential for players to select weapons like the scimitar for the high crit range. It'll probably send more players into being Sarenrae warpriests, and that's fine, I'm more for flavor anyway (the fact that this helps control the potential abuse of ANY weapon focus is a plus)

That would mean saranrae becomes the stronger choise for warpriest. To havea heavy unbalance like that is not healthy for a game.

Besides, if you are for flavor then you just choose the favored weapon of the god you like and problem solved, there is no reasn to try to force that on other people.

[Nicos]

Robert Little wrote:

Actually, now that I think about it more, they really need a thrown weapons archetype regardless, if only for an ability that lets them use their sacred weapon ability on all thrown weapons for a round (melee usres can get their full attack with all their bonuses, projectile weapons can as well, but thrown weapons get a single attack with all the bonuses and then its gone.)

MOre general, this class really need an archetype that focus solely on their favored weapon of the god, whatever weapon that might be.

I woudl really like cool (and not weak) option for trown weapons, crossbows and slings.

[Xaratherus]

I think allowing additional sacred weapons at the cost of a feat (Weapon Focus) is fine. The only balance point IMO would be crit multiplier and range, and that can be addressed by normalizing it. I think having Sacred Weapon normalize crit to 19-20, x2 would suffice.

[Clectabled]

With Regards to Fevor:

I think the Fevor should include not just spells, but blessings or other Special Abilities that have an action cost of 1 full round or less, as long as that ability only affects the Warpriest.

That would allow you to use the Blessings as a swift action by spending a Fevor point.

(Or if multiclassed, us other class abilities as a swift action)

Any Spell or ability used this way should count as a quickened spell, even if it's an ability that is quickened.

[Dispari Scuro]

Slacker2010 wrote:

Dispari Scuro wrote:

Well for monks, their BAB can change from one round to the next. It depends on if they're flurrying or not. Their BAB is different for a full attack than it is for an AoO (usually). That's definitely extra work.

A warpriest's "BAB" would never change as long as they're always using the same weapon(s). It would only change if they draw a different weapon that they don't have Weapon Focus in. It's a lot more static than a monk, and easier to keep track of.

While you are correct in response to your weapon attacks, what happens with CMD and CMB and other factors that respond to BAB? It would be extra book keeping. Your CMB would be different on a disarm vs a grapple.

Pretty sure that's true anyway considering weapon bonuses (Weapon Focus, upgrades) apply on a disarm but not a grapple.

[Clectabled]

Fevor Typo?

Fevor wrote:

Alternatively, the warpriest can use this ability to harm an undead creature, dealing the same amount of damage he would otherwise heal with a
melee touch attack. Using fervor in this way is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.

That should probably read that does Not provoke and AOO.

[Slacker2010]

I just put together a level 6 Paladin, Warpriest, and Inquisitor all of which using a greatsword. Tried to get most of the feats the same across all the classes.

Warpriest - On round 3, (first standard action - Divine Favor)(after swift action, sacred weapon, strength blessing every round after) the war priest has ramped up to: +19 Attack, 2d6+17 damage. He could do this for about 5ish rounds.

Inquisitor - On round 2, (first standard action - Divine Favor)(first swift action - judgement, bane after that) the Inquisitor has ramped up to: +16 Attack, 2d6+18 damage. He could do this for about 5ish rounds. But to utilize his class features I picked up Escape Route and Outflank, to make use of his class abilities. This should let him get into flanking by round 3. At this point he is at: +20 Attack, 4d6+18 damage.

Paladin - On round 2, (first standard action - Divine bond)(first swift action - smite) the Paladin has ramped up to: +16/+9 Attack, 2d6+20 damage. With Oath of Vengeance he could smite 5 times, Smite last entire battle while sacred weapon & bane are only lasting 6 rounds total. Paladin could do his damage more consistently but its kind of sad that the Inquisitor can burst so much harder.

This is really Sad, the Warpriest should be able to dust the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor is a 6+ skill point class. Lots of utility, brings more than just combat to the party. Why would someone play a Warpriest?

[Clectabled]

Slacker2010 wrote:

Dispari Scuro wrote:

Well for monks, their BAB can change from one round to the next. It depends on if they're flurrying or not. Their BAB is different for a full attack than it is for an AoO (usually). That's definitely extra work.

A warpriest's "BAB" would never change as long as they're always using the same weapon(s). It would only change if they draw a different weapon that they don't have Weapon Focus in. It's a lot more static than a monk, and easier to keep track of.

While you are correct in response to your weapon attacks, what happens with CMD and CMB and other factors that respond to BAB? It would be extra book keeping. Your CMB would be different on a disarm vs a grapple.

Assuming you don't have every feat that allows you perform Combat Maneuvers without invoking, you probably ALREADY have different CMB for Disarm vs Grapple vs other Maneuver.

[Dispari Scuro]

Slacker2010 wrote:

This is really Sad, the Warpriest should be able to dust the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor is a 6+ skill point class. Lots of utility, brings more than just combat to the party. Why would someone play a Warpriest?

Well for one, I wouldn't spend several rounds sitting there buffing and not fighting. The warpriest has the ability to jump right into combat and buff herself as the combat goes without sacrificing any turns.

Two, the warpriest has more access to better weapons and armor and eventually does pretty darn good damage with any weapon.

Three, the warpriest can lay on hands herself without sacrificing any turns of combat (again, inquisitor cannot). She can also channel energy if she wants to, healing the whole party.

Four, you can't say inquisitors have 6+int skill points but also rely on them always having bane. To realistically use bane all the time you're going to have to sink at least 6 of those skill points into actual knowledge skills, and keep up with them, so you can actually identify the creatures (unless you're just metagaming) to use bane on. So one of two scenarios appears: A) you actually can't always count on bane so shouldn't include it in your calculations, or B) you actually don't have that many skill points left.

Even if the warpriest doesn't do quite as much damage as the inquisitor, it has more options for supporting herself and supporting a party that, in my opinion, make it a valid class.

[RtrnofdMax]

Some feat ideas, basically copied from the Inquisitor, as this is the class I think we need to look to for parity.

Extra Fervor:

Your fervor in battle is especially strong.

Prerequisites: Fervor class feature.

Increase your daily uses of the Fervor ability by 2.

Faithful Fervor:

The power of your faith grants you additional power.

Prerequisites: Fervor class feature.

Increase your daily uses of the Fervor ability by half of your Wisdom bonus (minimum 1).

Sacred Unity:

The power of your deity flows into weapon and armor alike.

Prerequisites: Warpriest level 10th

The Sacred Weapon and Armor abilities can be activated with a single swift action.

Note: Unless the character has Enduring Weapon the duration of Sacred Weapon is still counted in rounds.

Enduring Weapon:

Maintaining your Sacred Weapon takes less effort.

Prerequisite: Sacred Weapon +2 class feature

By expending 2 uses of your Sacred Weapon ability, the duration of Sacred Weapon increases to 1 min. per use.

[Scavion]

Slacker2010 wrote:

I just put together a level 6 Paladin, Warpriest, and Inquisitor all of which using a greatsword. Tried to get most of the feats the same across all the classes.

Warpriest - On round 3, (first standard action - Divine Favor)(after swift action, sacred weapon, strength blessing every round after) the war priest has ramped up to: +19 Attack, 2d6+17 damage. He could do this for about 5ish rounds.

Inquisitor - On round 2, (first standard action - Divine Favor)(first swift action - judgement, bane after that) the Inquisitor has ramped up to: +16 Attack, 2d6+18 damage. He could do this for about 5ish rounds. But to utilize his class features I picked up Escape Route and Outflank, to make use of his class abilities. This should let him get into flanking by round 3. At this point he is at: +20 Attack, 4d6+18 damage.

Paladin - On round 2, (first standard action - Divine bond)(first swift action - smite) the Paladin has ramped up to: +16/+9 Attack, 2d6+20 damage. With Oath of Vengeance he could smite 5 times, Smite last entire battle while sacred weapon & bane are only lasting 6 rounds total. Paladin could do his damage more consistently but its kind of sad that the Inquisitor can burst so much harder.

This is really Sad, the Warpriest should be able to dust the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor is a 6+ skill point class. Lots of utility, brings more than just combat to the party. Why would someone play a Warpriest?

Well its not too shabby of a difference. Its going to be difficult to size up to the Inquisitor. Keep in mind the Warpriest has 2 attacks as well.

[Rory]

Slacker2010 wrote:

This is really Sad, the Warpriest should be able to dust the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor is a 6+ skill point class. Lots of utility, brings more than just combat to the party. Why would someone play a Warpriest?

Two things:

- The War Priest should be attacking from Round 1 (not Round 3) by using Fervor for Divine Favor. The Inquisitor was not attacking until Round 2 if they used Divine Favor.

- You didn't list that both the War Priest and the Paladin were attacking twice to the Inquisitor's once.

[Clectabled]

Dispari Scuro wrote:

Slacker2010 wrote:

This is really Sad, the Warpriest should be able to dust the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor is a 6+ skill point class. Lots of utility, brings more than just combat to the party. Why would someone play a Warpriest?

Well for one, I wouldn't spend several rounds sitting there buffing and not fighting. The warpriest has the ability to jump right into combat and buff herself as the combat goes without sacrificing any turns.

Two, the warpriest has more access to better weapons and armor and eventually does pretty darn good damage with any weapon.

Three, the warpriest can lay on hands herself without sacrificing any turns of combat (again, inquisitor cannot). She can also channel energy if she wants to, healing the whole party.

Four, you can't say inquisitors have 6+int skill points but also rely on them always having bane. To realistically use bane all the time you're going to have to sink at least 6 of those skill points into actual knowledge skills, and keep up with them, so you can actually identify the creatures (unless you're just metagaming) to use bane on. So one of two scenarios appears: A) you actually can't always count on bane so shouldn't include it in your calculations, or B) you actually don't have that many skill points left.

Even if the warpriest doesn't do quite as much damage as the inquisitor, it has more options for supporting herself and supporting a party that, in my opinion, make it a valid class.

Also putting the Inquisitor into a flanking position and not the Warpriest / Pally skews the numbers a bit when both could cast Grace and get into a flanking position just as easy (Swift action 1st lvl spell)

Giving the inquisitor bonus feats on flanking also skews the number.

What were the 2 bonus feats you gave the Warpriest?

[Excaliburproxy]

Hey. Am I the only one who thinks there is still a favored weapon issue here? Like: find the kukri god and rapier gods and then go to town.

And am I the only one who thinks it is an easy fix?

For weapons that crit on 20 for x2 damage, 19 for x2 damage, or 20 for x3 damage (or otherwise weaker crit properties):
Keep the standard damage progression.

For weapons that crit on 19 for x3 or more damage, crit on an 18, or crit for x4 damage (or otherwise stronger crit damage progression):
Give don't step up their damage until level 4, and then have them treat themselves on the chart as though they are 4 levels lower.

[Javaed]

So I started building out a Warpriest for play testing last night and I thought I'd share my initial reactions. Please keep in mind that I usually play in homebrew settings, so I'm working with a different list of deities.

1) I like how the Sacred Weapon works. It really shores up some of the weaker favored weapons but you still have flexibility in your build. In my case, I'm going with the favored weapon (Repeating Crossbow) as the party lacks ranged support.

2) Planning out my attributes is really challenging. I need to plan out a mix of Dex, Strength and Con and can't really dump any of them below 10. I need Wisdom for spell casting and Charisma for Fervor/Channeling. And my character is serving a Goddess with a strong emphasis on Knowledge, so I kinda want some Int too. To be fair though, melee Clerics can face many of these same issues and the buffing spells should help shore up the problems.

3) With some exceptions, I found the minor blessings to be a pretty good mix of options and I actually like them better than most domains. The major blessings could use some more work though, and I'll post details in the Blessings thread later.

On the whole, the class seems pretty solid. I'm slightly worried about having to spread out my attribute points so much. I would suggest to the dev team that some extra testing time with various combat builds would be warranted. I can see dex to damage builds being overly popular with this class. The Guided weapon property might come into the mix too (though that's even more fringe than Agile).

[RtrnofdMax]

Excaliburproxy wrote:

Hey. Am I the only one who thinks there is still a favored weapon issue here? Like: find the kukri god and rapier gods and then go to town.

And am I the only one who thinks it is an easy fix?

For weapons that crit on 20 for x2 damage, 19 for x2 damage, or 20 for x3 damage (or otherwise weaker crit properties):
Keep the standard damage progression.

For weapons that crit on 19 for x3 or more damage, crit on an 18, or crit for x4 damage (or otherwise stronger crit damage progression):
Give don't step up their damage until level 4, and then have them treat themselves on the chart as though they are 4 levels lower.

Too complicated in my opinion. Plus it doesn't matter since you can pick any weapon and make it Sacred. Deity is now flavor, not mechanics, as it should be.

[Xaratherus]

Again, sacred weapon should normalize crit range and multiplier. I think 19-20 and x2 is fair.

That said, I do think there could be some benefit for those Warpriests who choose to wield their deity's chosen weapon specifically. Perhaps they could get a free use of their sacred weapon enhancement ability per day?

[Slacker2010]

@ scavion, Bah forgot about that, I need to add in another attack. It will be at -8 due to using furious focus.

@ Rory, I expect everyone to be fighting at round 2. I just put what he had ramped up to at round 3. Also, its worth noting that he could buff Divine favor with a swift action. My problem with this is that after level 7, if he is not using his first swift for Sacred armor the entire ability is a waste. More often than not. You can use your first standard action to buff due to movement and positioning.

@Clectabled, Using grace is using valuable level 1 spells. Due to "solo-tactics" and "escape route" this is far more common. Another note, next level (level7) the inquisitor will be able to buff Heroism. While the Warpriest would use his first swift action for Sacred Armor.

Feats for the warpriest are: FeyFounding, Toughness, Weapon Focus, Power attack, Furious Focus, Extra Fervor (im sure will be a feat in the book), Improved Initiative.

Inquisitor feats: Improved Initiative, Toughness, Powerattack, Outflank, Furious Focus, Escape Route.

Paladin feats: Fey Foundling, Powerattack, Weapon Focus, Furious Focus.

I Taxed both the Inquisitor and Warpriest Toughness to bring them up to snuff with front-liners. All are human. I tried to keep the feats similar, so we could make comparisons. Honestly I would have tailored all the feats slightly differently. But then its even harder to compare.

Personally I would have taken the travel domain for the inquisitor, along with longstrider he can get into that flank alot easier. If you wanted to optimize combat you can take the Anger Inquisition and at level 6 you can start raging.

[Shadar Aman]

Xaratherus wrote:

Again, sacred weapon should normalize crit range and multiplier. I think 19-20 and x2 is fair.

That said, I do think there could be some benefit for those Warpriests who choose to wield their deity's chosen weapon specifically. Perhaps they could get a free use of their sacred weapon enhancement ability per day?

As one of the more vocal people who requested freedom to choose weapons...I agree that I would like to see a little bit of encouragement towards using a favored weapon. Personally, I would prefer to see that in the form of applying the scaling weapon dice only to the favored weapon. The purpose of the scaling is to make strange favored weapons (like daggers) more viable, but that really only makes sense when those weapons are being chosen for you by your deity. If I want to choose another weapon for whatever reason, I'm ok with dealing with the same issues every other class has to deal with when making weapon decisions.

That said, I'm also really happy with where the Sacred Weapon feature is right now, so I would probably prefer it just not be messed with. Otherwise there's too much chance of making it not as much fun.

[Eltacolibre]

I don't see the point in normalizing crit range. If someone is going for a crit build, they are going to crit hard and often. I'm okay with that because if someone choose to specialize in critting...well let's them have fun.

Plus from personal experience, crit don't really happen that often even with a good crit weapon. The dwarf fighter player on my table has the feat improved critical for his warhammer (making it a 19-20) and is by far the one that have been landing crits the most often compared to people wielding rapiers, falchions etc...

Sometime the dice just favor somebody else.

[Xaratherus]

Eltacolibre wrote:

I don't see the point in normalizing crit range. If someone is going for a crit build, they are going to crit hard and often. I'm okay with that because if someone choose to specialize in critting...well let's them have fun.

Plus from personal experience, crit don't really happen that often even with a good crit weapon. The dwarf fighter player on my table has the feat improved critical for his warhammer (making it a 19-20) and is by far the one that have been landing crits the most often compared to people wielding rapiers, falchions etc...

Sometime the dice just favor somebody else.

It makes your choice of deity a large mechanical choice, rather than one of flavor.

As someone who plays a keen scimitar-wielding Magus, I'll say that my anecdotal experience is the opposite of what you're suggesting - I crit about 50% more frequently than the other martial characters at the table. That 15-20, or 17-20, or even 18-20 crit range can - and will - make a huge difference.

And statistically speaking, that's exactly how it should work.

Which is enough, IMO, that not normalizing the crit range makes some deities far more desirable than others. That appears to run contrary to the one of the main purposes of the sacred weapon mechanic in the first place, which was to give a Warpriest the chance to wield her god's sacred weapon (even if that weapon is normally too weak in combat).

[Slacker2010]

Xaratherus wrote:

not normalizing the crit range makes some deities far more desirable than others (and that runs contrary to the one of the main purposes of the sacred weapon mechanic in the first place).

I agree, I also dont think it should scale. One of the best weapons is a longsword. Just make your God's Favorite weapon able to be d8,19-20,x2. This allows everyone use weapons of their gods for flavor and they stay relevant.

Eltacolibre wrote:

I don't see the point in normalizing crit range. If someone is going for a crit build, they are going to crit hard and often. I'm okay with that because if someone choose to specialize in critting...well let's them have fun.

I agree, They can use a scimitar and do (d6,18-20)

If they want to benefit from the increased die of gods favorite weapon then they should be using a normalized crit range. This way people are not encouraged to abuse it.

[RJGrady]

If you just park the maximum benefits at 1d6/1d8/2d6 for light (and double)/one-handed/two-handed, the differences won't be huge and you don't have to worry very much about crit ranges. On the other hand, it does very little for those whose favored weapon's main problem is that it has average damage output and poor critical properties.

[Illius]

This may be a odd question, but where would I list Sacred Weapon in a warpreist's stat block?

[Eltacolibre]

I would say class features/special abilities.

[Illius]

I could list it under special attacks because it eventually can gain enhancement bonuses, but I am not sure where to list which weapons are designated sacred by the warpriest.

[Eltacolibre]

Just mark it with an *, should be fine imo.

[SterMe]

Here was my level 1 last night: Favored weapon of Shurikens with weapon focus kukri's. Tack on 2 weapon fighting and double slice and we start getting silly. I am doing Monk damage with 18-20 Crit in Fighter armor (19 AC with trait and 4-Mirror Mail) and am still able to go ranged if needed for the SAME DAMAGE. I can't imagine what happens at 2 when I can actually draw as part of a move AND Divine Favor or Cure Light AND attack. Anyone know which Chronicle Sheet has a Belt of Might Hurling on it? Granted the season 0 had us fighting rogues with 14 AC and I was playing with a party of Druid's, the damage / flexibility seemed intense for a 2 save class.

[Excaliburproxy]

RtrnofdMax wrote:

Excaliburproxy wrote:

Hey. Am I the only one who thinks there is still a favored weapon issue here? Like: find the kukri god and rapier gods and then go to town.

And am I the only one who thinks it is an easy fix?

For weapons that crit on 20 for x2 damage, 19 for x2 damage, or 20 for x3 damage (or otherwise weaker crit properties):
Keep the standard damage progression.

For weapons that crit on 19 for x3 or more damage, crit on an 18, or crit for x4 damage (or otherwise stronger crit damage progression):
Give don't step up their damage until level 4, and then have them treat themselves on the chart as though they are 4 levels lower.

Too complicated in my opinion. Plus it doesn't matter since you can pick any weapon and make it Sacred. Deity is now flavor, not mechanics, as it should be.

It is still a feat tax for having deity with a favored weapon that does not crit on an 18 or does not crit for x4 damage.

That rapier, bro: It is better than a great sword.

Also I can write the rule in 3 lines:
THIS chart unless the weapon crits for x4 damage, crits on an 18, or crits on a 19 for mot than x2 damage.
If it crits like that, use the chart treating your level as 4 lower.

Super simple.

[RJGrady]

Rapier, used two-handed. hrm.

[Kolokotroni]

Excaliburproxy wrote:

RtrnofdMax wrote:

Excaliburproxy wrote:

Hey. Am I the only one who thinks there is still a favored weapon issue here? Like: find the kukri god and rapier gods and then go to town.

And am I the only one who thinks it is an easy fix?

For weapons that crit on 20 for x2 damage, 19 for x2 damage, or 20 for x3 damage (or otherwise weaker crit properties):
Keep the standard damage progression.

For weapons that crit on 19 for x3 or more damage, crit on an 18, or crit for x4 damage (or otherwise stronger crit damage progression):
Give don't step up their damage until level 4, and then have them treat themselves on the chart as though they are 4 levels lower.

Too complicated in my opinion. Plus it doesn't matter since you can pick any weapon and make it Sacred. Deity is now flavor, not mechanics, as it should be.

It is still a feat tax for having deity with a favored weapon that does not crit on an 18 or does not crit for x4 damage.

That rapier, bro: It is better than a great sword.

What do you mean? You can make any weapon your focus weapon regardless of your deity's favored weapon, so where is the feat tax? For exotic weapons?

Quote:

Focus Weapon: At 1st level, a warpriest receives Weapon
Focus as a bonus feat (choosing any weapon, not just his
deity’s favored weapon). If his deity’s favored weapon is
unarmed strike, he can instead select Improved Unarmed
Strike as a bonus feat

[Excaliburproxy]

Kolokotroni wrote:

Excaliburproxy wrote:

RtrnofdMax wrote:

Excaliburproxy wrote:

Hey. Am I the only one who thinks there is still a favored weapon issue here? Like: find the kukri god and rapier gods and then go to town.

And am I the only one who thinks it is an easy fix?

For weapons that crit on 20 for x2 damage, 19 for x2 damage, or 20 for x3 damage (or otherwise weaker crit properties):
Keep the standard damage progression.

For weapons that crit on 19 for x3 or more damage, crit on an 18, or crit for x4 damage (or otherwise stronger crit damage progression):
Give don't step up their damage until level 4, and then have them treat themselves on the chart as though they are 4 levels lower.

Too complicated in my opinion. Plus it doesn't matter since you can pick any weapon and make it Sacred. Deity is now flavor, not mechanics, as it should be.

It is still a feat tax for having deity with a favored weapon that does not crit on an 18 or does not crit for x4 damage.

That rapier, bro: It is better than a great sword.

What do you mean? You can make any weapon your focus weapon regardless of your deity's favored weapon, so where is the feat tax? For exotic weapons?

Quote:

Focus Weapon: At 1st level, a warpriest receives Weapon
Focus as a bonus feat (choosing any weapon, not just his
deity’s favored weapon). If his deity’s favored weapon is
unarmed strike, he can instead select Improved Unarmed
Strike as a bonus feat

Oh wow. I suppose I misread it. Alright then. Dual-wielding agile kukris err'y day, son.

Not just some days. Err'y day.

[Balgin]

Dispari Scuro wrote:

Three, the warpriest can lay on hands herself without sacrificing any turns of combat (again, inquisitor cannot).

While this is true the inquisitor can also give himself fast healing if he needs it. The ammount scales with his level.

[Excaliburproxy]

RJGrady wrote:

Rapier, used two-handed. hrm.

I just checked the rules. You can't add 1.5 strength with rapiers. I guess we just have to all use scimitars like chumps, then.

[RJGrady]

Excaliburproxy wrote:

RJGrady wrote:

Rapier, used two-handed. hrm.

I just checked the rules. You can't add 1.5 strength with rapiers. I guess we just have to all use scimitars like chumps, then.

Heh, I never noticed that. And it was true under 3.5, too!

[Robert Little]

Illius wrote:

I could list it under special attacks because it eventually can gain enhancement bonuses, but I am not sure where to list which weapons are designated sacred by the warpriest.

Since it is any weapons that the wielder has weapon focus for, you don't really need to list them again individually.

Here is how I listed it in a 12th level Warpriest's stat block:

Special Attacks channel positive energy (DC 18, 4d6), fervor (4d6, 8/day), sacred armor +2 (12 minutes/day), sacred weapon +3 (12 rounds/day)

[Rory]

Slacker2010 wrote:

My problem with this is that after level 7, if he is not using his first swift for Sacred armor the entire ability is a waste. More often than not. You can use your first standard action to buff due to movement and positioning.

I think you are right that Sacred Armor will be largely a waste.

+1 AC at level 7 is going to be a relatively weak buff. It'll be well down the food chain for quite a while.

At level 7, Shield of Faith is +3 AC. It's very likely swift action casting Shield of Faith is going to give a better AC boost than Sacred Armor. It applies to touch plus normal AC, so it's already better at the same plus.

Good call!

[Slacker2010]

Dispari Scuro wrote:

Slacker2010 wrote:

This is really Sad, the Warpriest should be able to dust the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor is a 6+ skill point class. Lots of utility, brings more than just combat to the party. Why would someone play a Warpriest?

Well for one, I wouldn't spend several rounds sitting there buffing and not fighting. The warpriest has the ability to jump right into combat and buff herself as the combat goes without sacrificing any turns.

Two, the warpriest has more access to better weapons and armor and eventually does pretty darn good damage with any weapon.

Three, the warpriest can lay on hands herself without sacrificing any turns of combat (again, inquisitor cannot). She can also channel energy if she wants to, healing the whole party.

Four, you can't say inquisitors have 6+int skill points but also rely on them always having bane. To realistically use bane all the time you're going to have to sink at least 6 of those skill points into actual knowledge skills, and keep up with them, so you can actually identify the creatures (unless you're just metagaming) to use bane on. So one of two scenarios appears: A) you actually can't always count on bane so shouldn't include it in your calculations, or B) you actually don't have that many skill points left.

Even if the warpriest doesn't do quite as much damage as the inquisitor, it has more options for supporting herself and supporting a party that, in my opinion, make it a valid class.

Sorry I had missed the post when I answered the others.

One, Casting one spell at the start of battle is not normally an issue. I play PFS and its rare I can get in a charge with my Pally due to terrain and 20spd (full-plate). I assumed everyone could get in one spell. The warpriest would be using divine favor. To use Fervor to cast it as a swift action would nullify his ability to swift action heal himself. Also, starting at level 7 Warpriest's first swift action will be to active his sacred armor or the class feature becomes useless.

Two, I rarely see anyone use different weapons other than overcoming DR. Most of the time a person is using 1 weapon, normally the weapon he will spend his money enchanting.

Three, With Fervor keying off CHA and you using it to cast spells, you wont have much of a chance to heal with it. Also, as mentioned above, Inquisitor does get fast healing from judgement if they desire. (Disclaimer, I do believe the ability for the Warpriest to heal himself is much greater than that of the Inquisitor)

Four, Unless your doing an adventure solo, Knowledge is something shared by the group. I have found it rare that my group wouldn't have a clue what a creature was. Every PFS character I make has at least one Knowledge skills.

DISCLAIMER: I have been doing the PFS thing and so I have learned to put a greater value on utility and skills. The fact that the Inquisitor and Warpriest have about the same combat power There is little benefit of playing the warpriest over the Inquisitor except for Role-play reasons.

[Xaratherus]

Just a note\thought:

As it stands, it does not appear that the Paladin's sacred weapon ability has any benefit for thrown weapons, because of this:

"The enhancement bonus and properties are determined the first time the ability is used each day, and cannot be changed until the ability is used again the next day. These bonuses only apply while the warpriest is holding the weapon, and end immediately if the weapon is sheathed or leaves the warpriest’s possession."

The moment the shuriken leaves your hand, the bonus is gone. The normalized damage probably sticks, but that's it.

It also means that disarming against a Warpriest would be an effective way to force him to burn his daily sacred weapon charges. Disarming a low-level Warpriest will suck (for the Warpriest).

[Xaratherus]

Slacker2010 wrote:

To use Fervor to cast it as a swift action would nullify his ability to swift action heal himself. Also, starting at level 7 Warpriest's first swift action will be to active his sacred armor or the class feature becomes useless.

Did you offset that by allowing him to cast 2 spells? If he's burning Fervor to cast as a swift action, then he can use his standard action to cast a second spell (if you're assuming that the first round of combat all anyone does is stand around and buff - also assuming that it's intended to function like a free Quickened, which bypasses the "one spell per round limit" [that only appears in the Quickened feat anyway]).

In my experience, being able to get a spell cast at the start of combat is about 50%\50% (this is not PFS, but 'normal' tables).

Also, in most cases not having that swift action to heal yourself will be irrelevant at the start of combat; by the time that you should have any damage on you, you'll be in round 2, and have a swift action again.

[Dispari Scuro]

Slacker2010 wrote:

Dispari Scuro wrote:

Slacker2010 wrote:

This is really Sad, the Warpriest should be able to dust the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor is a 6+ skill point class. Lots of utility, brings more than just combat to the party. Why would someone play a Warpriest?

Well for one, I wouldn't spend several rounds sitting there buffing and not fighting. The warpriest has the ability to jump right into combat and buff herself as the combat goes without sacrificing any turns.

Two, the warpriest has more access to better weapons and armor and eventually does pretty darn good damage with any weapon.

Three, the warpriest can lay on hands herself without sacrificing any turns of combat (again, inquisitor cannot). She can also channel energy if she wants to, healing the whole party.

Four, you can't say inquisitors have 6+int skill points but also rely on them always having bane. To realistically use bane all the time you're going to have to sink at least 6 of those skill points into actual knowledge skills, and keep up with them, so you can actually identify the creatures (unless you're just metagaming) to use bane on. So one of two scenarios appears: A) you actually can't always count on bane so shouldn't include it in your calculations, or B) you actually don't have that many skill points left.

Even if the warpriest doesn't do quite as much damage as the inquisitor, it has more options for supporting herself and supporting a party that, in my opinion, make it a valid class.

Sorry I had missed the post when I answered the others.

One, Casting one spell at the start of battle is not normally an issue. I play PFS and its rare I can get in a charge with my Pally due to terrain and 20spd (full-plate). I assumed everyone could get in one spell. The warpriest would be using divine favor. To use Fervor to cast it as a swift action would nullify his ability to swift action heal himself. Also, starting at level 7 Warpriest's first swift action will be to active his sacred armor or the class feature...

I'm not sure what you mean by using a swift action to cast Divine Favor prevents you from healing. This is still the first round of combat right? Why do you need to heal yourself as your very first action? Either way, warpriest still has an advantage because they can wade into combat and buff themselves as they go. Every buff an inquisitor or paladin uses has to spend a standard action. The warpriest can just jump in and fight and buff themselves over the course of battle. It may be 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th round of combat before you're fully buffed, but you've managed to attack every single round. Look at it this way: the inquisitor can apply 2 buffs as a standard action over 2 rounds and then actually fight on round 3, while the warpriest can apply 2 buffs while still full attacking both rounds. That's a pretty good head-start.

Also yes, inquisitor has fast healing but A) it sucks compared to fervor or even cure light, and B) until level 16 it's taking the place of either a damage or attack buff. Since we're comparing their damage output, inquisitor activating fast healing means they do less damage. Warpriest still has a huge leg-up because she can just heal herself without stopping or reducing her offense.

Also that bane-reliance is still a gamble. Unless you coordinate with the party and make sure everyone has a really good knowledge check in all 6 possible creature types, you can't rely on it. Heck, even then, someone might fail a check.

At any rate, you asked why anyone would play a warpriest over an inquisitor and I answered. They're similar to inquisitor and have more self- and team-buff capabilities. You could say that you would personally never play a warpriest over an inquisitor, but in the same vein I would never play a wizard over a sorcerer. I just don't care for the bonuses wizard offers compared to what sorcerer offers. Personally, I just love the idea of a non-paladin class that can heal herself and party members while doing nice damage.

[Balgin]

teribithia9 wrote:

Captain K. wrote:

It's too powerful.

It's better than the Paladin. This ain't right.

It has 6th level spells so it will always be better than the Paladin in most ways, but don't make it better at fighting than us good guys.

A Warpriest of Iomedae is probably a better warrior than a Paladin of Iomadae. This isn't right.

It doesn't get smite.

You just can't beat smite.

I don't know. Personally I prefer Bastion of Good from the Sacred Shield archetype myself (especially with the class features that come after it and the right skills & feat selection :)). Playing an old school paladin instead of one of the angry aggressive impatient ones who just want to hit everything all the time.

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Gently put, the Warpriest is selfish while the Paladin is a team player. Not to mention that some of the paladin-specific spells are absolutely incredible.

Couldn't say it better myself :).