I can't really see how he can be anything but the thing the bad guys are trying to bring sbout. They either stop the bad guys or he happens. However don't hold the final encounter anywhere near major shipping lanes...
Totally using Cthulu soon. Definitely going to be direct combat. He's the older, more powerful deity enforcing a plane wide pact that prohibits how many outsiders are allowed on the plane.
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The Ghostbusters tackled him just fine. http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/wiki/The_Collect_Call_of_Cathulhu - WARNING: Ad with sounds, stupid free wikis.
I statted out a level 18 oracle to represent an aspect of him, but I have not heard of people taking on that diety and living.
No but I am planning on using Hastur as the capstone to my mythic campaign, so very nearly the same thing.
I'm not planning on using him.
1. Somehow putting stats on an "ultimate cosmic horror" seems to defeat the purpose of having an "ultimate cosmic horror".
and
2. Cthulhu seems out of place in a game designed so that the players are supposed to be able to win against anything (level appropriate). You're not supposed to win against Cthulhu, at best you can stave off ultimate destrution.
and
3. There's no sanity stat... the Great Old Ones are supposed to be so alien and incomrehencable (spelling?) that we break inside just being confronted by them.Don't mind me I suppose I'm just bitter that Cthulhu has been reduced to "just another monster". And I'll be hearing stories about "my paladin poked out Cthulhu's eye with his +10 sword v Mythos". Somehow seems wrong.
I completely agree.
Personally, I don't see the point. If I really wanted to throw Cthulhu at my players, I would just run a Call of Cthulhu campaign. Anything else just wouldn't feel right.| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not planning on using him.
1. Somehow putting stats on an "ultimate cosmic horror" seems to defeat the purpose of having an "ultimate cosmic horror".
and
2. Cthulhu seems out of place in a game designed so that the players are supposed to be able to win against anything (level appropriate). You're not supposed to win against Cthulhu, at best you can stave off ultimate destrution.
and
3. There's no sanity stat... the Great Old Ones are supposed to be so alien and incomrehencable (spelling?) that we break inside just being confronted by them.Don't mind me I suppose I'm just bitter that Cthulhu has been reduced to "just another monster". And I'll be hearing stories about "my paladin poked out Cthulhu's eye with his +10 sword v Mythos". Somehow seems wrong.
1) Cthulhu isn't the 'ultimate cosmic horror' in his own mythology. He's perhaps the most powerful of the Old Ones, but it's the Outer Gods who are the ultimate cosmic horrors, and they will receive no Pathfinder stats.
2a) At CR 30, Cthulhu is beyond the reach of 20th level characters to combat directly, and still 5 levels above the APL of a level 20/tier 10 party.
2b) Beating Cthulhu in combat *is* just 'staving off ultimate destruction'. Included in his stat block:
Immortality (Ex) If Cthulhu is killed, his body immediately
fades away into a noxious cloud of otherworldly vapor
that fills an area out to his reach. This cloud blocks vision
as obscuring mist, but can’t be dispersed by any amount
of wind. Any creature in this area must succeed at a DC 45
Fortitude save or be nauseated for as long as it remains
in the cloud and for an additional 1d10 rounds after it
leaves the area. Cthulhu returns to life after 2d6 rounds,
manifesting from the cloud and restored to life via true
resurrection, but is staggered for 2d6 rounds (nothing
can remove this staggered effect). If slain again while
he is staggered from this effect, Cthulhu reverts to vapor
form again and his essence fades away after 2d6 rounds,
returning to his tomb in R’lyeh until he is released again.
In other words--nothing but nothing can kill Cthulhu but it is theoretically possible to force him back into torpor. Which is pretty much what happened in the original Call of Cthulhu story, as I understand it.
3) There is no sanity stat, but all Great Old Ones specifically have an 'Aura of Insanity' ability--in Cthulhu's case, any round you can see him, and are within 300 feet of him, you need to make a DC 40 Will save or immediately die of fright. Make yourself immune to fear, and you still have to save against being staggered. And unlike many similar abilities, saving against the aura once doesn't mean you're immune for 24 hours, so you need to make that save *every round*.
I've never been a Lovecraft expert, but my understanding was that Cthulhu is actually pretty low on the power scale of Lovecraftian cosmic horrors. Certainly, he is a lot more powerful than many lesser horror, but when compare to true powerhouses, like Azathoth, Cthulhu is actually just an insignificant speck, much like a simple human is to him.
Cthulhu is special in that he is the most famous of Lovecrafts horrors, and a culture has grown up around him, not because he is an especially powerful being.
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I want to stick him in as a boss in a one shot with a tag-along NPC just to have him say:
"Did you just punch Cthulhu?"
Creative Director
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But as a lump of stats...well a typical (core+) level 26+ party would defeat him rather easily. Add mythic or epic rules and it'd be ridiculously easy unless you pulled GM fiat.
First off... the game as it currently exists doesn't allow a level 26+ party. Level 20 remains the level cap. A level 20, tier 10 character is the equivalent of a CR 24 creature, so a party of level 20/tier 10 heroes should still have their work cut out for them against something like Cthulhu.
I would LOVE to hear how some sample fights against Cthulhu with a level 20/tier 10 group went!
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I used Cthulhu with stats from D20 Modern against PCs using Monte Cook's World of Darkness (basically D20 Modern with monsters for classes). They fought him (it?) underwater using apparatuses of Kwalish and shield guardians. It was quite a conflict. Not sure if the specifics really matter, since they weren't PF stats.
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This...a thousand times THIS.......
Don't mind me I suppose I'm just bitter that Cthulhu has been reduced to "just another monster". And I'll be hearing stories about "my paladin poked out Cthulhu's eye with his +10 sword v Mythos". Somehow seems wrong.
This attitude irritates me.
Players with a reasonable shot at killing him are level 20 with 10 mythic tiers (level 17 and 1 tier with really good optimization but i digress). That isn't "gritty realistic" heroes anymore. It isn't even mystical but still managable heroes like Odysseus. They are among the strongest powers to exist and they should be able to in every way shape the world just as much as the campaign settings movers and shakers. They are Hercules, Kratos, Sun Wukong, Moses, etc. If you don't want your players do be mythic in scope don't play mythic and those stats will be high enough that they might as well read "you lose" dont whine at the people who do like them.
Hell given how low the bar on "this thing should never be statted" tends to go you should probably be playing E6.
I understand the point you're trying to make. But a hydra and Cerberus (while still potent) is still hardly within the scope of say, Typhon and Echinda.But you correct. I am being unfair to those who do like them as is, I apologize. I think we can agree to disagree?
Depending on the myth Hercules did play a vital role in beating Typhon. He also carried Cerberus like a puppy without knocking him out first.
But thank you for being probably more civil than i deserved. Also E6 is really fun if that's the kind of game you want to run, and it is legitimately worth a look for a more level power level.
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Well in Lovecrafts story Johansen rams Cthulhu with a ship and busts his head. I think it ok if epic heroes, that can Challenge the gods, can do better than that.
The high levels is about, among other things, facing stuff that is way beyond.
But i dont envision using any of the mythos stuff in my game.
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But as a lump of stats...well a typical (core+) level 26+ party would defeat him rather easily. Add mythic or epic rules and it'd be ridiculously easy unless you pulled GM fiat.First off... the game as it currently exists doesn't allow a level 26+ party. Level 20 remains the level cap. A level 20, tier 10 character is the equivalent of a CR 24 creature, so a party of level 20/tier 10 heroes should still have their work cut out for them against something like Cthulhu.
I would LOVE to hear how some sample fights against Cthulhu with a level 20/tier 10 group went!
Right since you would not normally run epic tier (which doesn't exist in Pathfinder) I was extrapolating the appropriate 'level' that would be considered APL+4 a.k.a. 'epic' in old school 3.5. This of course doesn't change the basic premise of a CR 30 creature being an epic level encounter for an APL 26 (effective level 26 however get to whatever is equivalent in Pathfinder.)
So level 20/tier 10 is CR24? Which makes mess of pods an APL+6 encounter? Granted the APL rating really falls apart at this level. I'm sure if we posted this on the advice thread we'd get a killer party in no time :)
Let's make it a challenge then :)
I think James is mixing his rules a little.
A level 20/tier 10 NPC is CR 24. Throw PC wealth and it's CR 25. Essentially, though, a party of 20/10 characters is APL 25, which makes Cthulhu an APL+5 challenge, which translates into "the bad guy should win" (see the thread on a GM's Guide to Challenging Encounters, but APL+4 is basically meant to be a coin toss on which side wins).
The big problem I have with Cthulhu and his mythos in Pathfinder/any Fantasy epic RPG, is that when it is all said and done, the impact of such a horror is less than if they are used in a modern setting. Look at some of the crazy stuff a PC has already dealt with. I understand that Cthulhu is amazingly powerful, but after all the above, a Giant Draconic Mind Flayer with a displacement/blink effect is supposed to drive them crazy? I don't buy it. Take away the impossible horror of such a beast existing, and we just end up with an immortal monster for a party of PC's to fight, which doesn't do Cthulhu justice.
I may want to use him at some point. Either make something similar to an AP for him (homebrewed of course) and have the cults of the Great Old Ones (including our lovely King in Yellow) be the "final bosses".
Maybe they'll go mad before then...
I'm thinking about using him in one of those rare cosmological alignments where he moves from world to world just swiping through population centers spreading madness as quickly as possible before the alignment changes and he gets pulled back to his prison. No combat to be had. Just Cthulu rushing through cities making people insane and moving straight away to the next city or another planet entirely.
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Creative Director
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I think James is mixing his rules a little.
A level 20/tier 10 NPC is CR 24. Throw PC wealth and it's CR 25. Essentially, though, a party of 20/10 characters is APL 25, which makes Cthulhu an APL+5 challenge, which translates into "the bad guy should win" (see the thread on a GM's Guide to Challenging Encounters, but APL+4 is basically meant to be a coin toss on which side wins).
Well... keep in mind that CR is used to measure the power level of a monster or NPC. It's really not appropriate to use it to measure a PC's power. It's better to use just the PC's level (or the party's average party level) for that measurement, increasing level by +1 for every 2 tiers of mythic power.
And of course, using more than 4 players, using higher than 15 point buy, and running for experienced players further adjusts the expected power curve as well—that's where you the GM have to step in and use your personal knowledge of your players to do the last fine-tuning adjustments to any encounter to make it an appropriate challenge.
I'm not planning on using him.
1. Somehow putting stats on an "ultimate cosmic horror" seems to defeat the purpose of having an "ultimate cosmic horror".
and
2. Cthulhu seems out of place in a game designed so that the players are supposed to be able to win against anything (level appropriate). You're not supposed to win against Cthulhu, at best you can stave off ultimate destrution.
and
3. There's no sanity stat... the Great Old Ones are supposed to be so alien and incomrehencable (spelling?) that we break inside just being confronted by them.Don't mind me I suppose I'm just bitter that Cthulhu has been reduced to "just another monster". And I'll be hearing stories about "my paladin poked out Cthulhu's eye with his +10 sword v Mythos". Somehow seems wrong.
Since those cosmic horrors were supposed to be on par with deities, or so I understood at one point, I am surprised they have stats. I will just say any statted deity is just an avatar, because the actual deities have an agreement to not interfere in such a direct matter. The deity trapped in Golarion that killed a lot of other gods is the one exception, but him being released would be a world ender. The PC's have failed.
Well something like Cthulhu might not have such an agreement, but he might know that showing will gain the attention of deities, and therefore be wise enough to not appear.
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43 replies - 3 posts on topic.
Cthulu isn't meant to be on par with deities, except perhaps demigods. Of the "big bads" in the Cthulu mythos, he's actually on the lower end of the scale.
That said, I'd watch out with the new classes. Cthulu eats 1d4 investigators per round.
I know one deity went there(the place were his kind live) and the deity came back changed. I assumed they had to be powerful to corrupt him. But I dont know much about the Cthulu mythos either.
Is the WT statted up anywhere officially?
Is the WT statted up anywhere officially?
mythic realms