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Ah.
Then what you are saying is that the penalty makes no sense based on the justification for the rule.
That's a strong case for claiming RAI.

You haven't actually made a case based on RAW.

VoodistMonk wrote:
Name Violation wrote:

Shooting into melee doesn't use the term ally..

Shooting or Throwing into a Melee
If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other.

That could just be a real chill homie. Doesn't even have to be an ally, just a friendly bloke from down the lane

The penalty is because you don't want to shoot the "friendly character"... you do not normally risk shooting yourself, so the penalty doesn't apply. Even if you are "friendly" to yourself, and insist on counting as your own ally... the penalty still doesn't apply because you still don't normally risk shooting yourself.

Outside of the AoO that may or may not happen, I literally don't see any reason there should be any penalties applied to the shot. Crossbows can be fired prone. Everything looks kosher.


It's not logic. It's how pathfinder writes the rules.

You are your own ally, and you are friendly to yourself.
They are the ones that came up with those definitions.

The reasons they did is sensible in relation to the way the rules are written, but yes, it does sound stupid.

On the other hand this is pathfinder. Which is a descendant of DnD.
When have a large chunk of the rules not sounded stupid in any of those?

VoodistMonk wrote:

Lol... some of the "logic" presented in this thread makes my brain bleed.

No. You do not take the -4 to your attack.

Your penalty price for shooting a ranged weapon whilst engaged in melee is the AoO they get against you. That's it. And even that can be negated by a feat.

All this "your own ally" $#!+... GTFOH...


On the other hand if you are shooting someone you are in combat with then you are moving to avoid been hit (otherwise you would be flat footed) and they are moving in relation to you at a really high rate.

As for trying to avoid shooting someone else. Isn't that where Cover comes into play.
And that is when you have to shoot past your guy and stack on top of the penalty for shooting in to combat.

My understanding was that at least part of the problem for shooting into combat is simply people in combat are moving far less predictably.

I'm getting the feeling the answer is

By RAW the shooting in to combat penalty applies when it's your combat.
But by RAW if the GM believes this is one of the exceptions to the "you are friendly and allied to your self" then it doesn't apply.

Note: this is different from the normal GM zero rules, because the rule on Friendly/allied specifically says there are situations where this rule doesn't apply.

bbangerter wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
I would argue that an enemy swinging at you and potentially at your ranged weapon is enough to make sense that your aim is thrown off by a -4.

That would make sense if you also took a -4 penalty for being next to a melee enemy while shooting at a enemy not in melee combat. But there is no such rule for that. So it comes down to an "are you your own ally" in this context.

As a house rule you could adopt the combat maneuvers rule

Quote:


If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver.


HighLordNiteshade wrote:
Shooting is a ranged attach, not a melee attack. Even if you are right next to a target, you are making a ranged attack, not a melee attack. Therefore, if there are no other friendlies engaged with the enemy you are next to and shooting at, there is no -4 penalty because there are no friendlies engaged in melee with the target.

But the Enemy is engaged with you.

So he counts as been in combat with someone friendly to you.
Namely yourself.

The rules have stated in a number of places that you are considered friendly to yourself and an ally of yourself.

Thus spells and effects that affect those friendly to you or allied to you affect you as well.


You are prone with a crossbow next to an enemy who has attacked you.

You choose to fire your crossbow at them.

You survive the A)) for making a ranged attack while threatened.

The question is are you shooting into combat, for a -4 to hit.

------------------
Shooting or Throwing into a Melee
If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)

If your target (or the part of your target you’re aiming at, if it’s a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you’re aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.

If your target is two size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with, this penalty is reduced to –2. There is no penalty for firing at a creature that is three size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with.

Precise Shot: If you have the Precise Shot feat, you don’t take this penalty.
----------------------

By definition the standing enemy with w weapon is in melee with the prone archer.

But it is in melee with the Archer.
As a general rule anything that refers to "a friendly character" pr "allies" includes yourself when it comes to targeting and effects.
Is this an exception?

Any rules people can point to that would clarify the question for my GM would help.


avr wrote:

Taking a look now; nemesis devils can be melee brutes with lots of natural attacks. They also have everything necessary for the scry-buff-teleport tactic - scrying doesn't provide enough info to teleport on its own as of Ultimate Intrigue, but if you know the location otherwise it still tells you when to go, etc. Their other tactics are minionmancy with their devil mark ability to give out SLAs, and maybe throwing blasphemy around but that last depends on nonevil enemies which I think excludes most of your party.

So, 3-4 levels to make a natural attack brute better. With mooks. 2 levels of medium channeling the champion spirit is a fair number of buffs (including +2 damage for all the mooks), or 4 levels of unchained rogue can throw around a bunch of debuffs on anyone it can hit with a sneak attack, or barbarian/bloodrager helps it very directly in melee, perhaps skald to drive its mooks into a frenzy...

I think they're supposed to be heavily themed around their domain though. What domain does this one have?

Knowledge Domain or Fate

He's been a background figure so until now I never had to stat him up.

That is the 4Winds Fate Domain (Not the Luck subdomain)


I'm running a campaign that's coming to the end and the strong 17th level party will probably be facing a Nemesis Devil they have had dealings with among other BBEGs.

I'm looking to add 3-4 class levels to it to make it a suitable challenge.
Does anyone have any ideas?
I'm thinking either Advanced template and 3 levels, or just 4 levels. But any other powerup ideas will be considered (3rd party accepted).
The Devil has been using the party as catspaws in the quest for a Major artifact under construction which it hopes to use to enable it to become a Demi-god.

The plan is it turns up (with a few lesser "friends") just as the party finally encounters the BBEG completing the artifact to attempt a snatch and grab.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks

devil-nemesis


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"On a side note to that, only feint and flat-footed (that I am aware of) causes a loss of a dex to AC. The other mentions are all things that either trigger off that loss to AC specifically, or re-asserting rules that are already in place."

Arcane Trickster can make a target lose their Dex bonus to AC-
Beginning at 3rd level, once per day an arcane trickster can declare one melee or ranged attack she makes to be a sneak attack (the target can be no more than 30 feet distant if the impromptu sneak attack is a ranged attack). The target of an impromptu sneak attack loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, but only against that attack. The power can be used against any target, but creatures that are not subject to critical hits take no extra damage (though they still lose any Dexterity bonus to AC against the attack).

Blinded Condition -

The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength– and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

Invisible -
Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See the invisibility special ability.


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Just something to note to those who feel the Pinned condition isn't strong enough if the loss of dex modifier only applies to AC.

If you successfully escape Pin you become grappled.

I noted a certain degree of horror in the face of one of my players with a Ring of Freedom of movement that if a Dragon had pinned him with a Crush attack he could just walk out of it. :P

Regarding someones suggestion that if the designers had just intended to say "Pinned makes you you lose your dex bonus to AC but not to anything else" they could've said "you become flat footed".
Flatfooted is negated by Uncanny Dodge which is merely uncommon.

So no, they would have not wanted to use the term "flat footed" in regards to Pinning.
Indeed the stand terms used where they want you to lose your Dex bonus to AC even if you have Uncanny Dodge is - "You are denied your Dex bonus to AC" or "you lose your dex bonus".

While I think it's fair to say the RAW isn't 100% clear that Pinning only takes your Dex Modifer from AC, it is about 95% likely given all the wordings used in the rules.


Taja the Barbarian wrote:
Belafon wrote:
Yure wrote:

Yup. You are right, thanks for pointing that out. I saw a few posts where this metamagic was used to increase DC, and I was confused by the wording and what was being claimed. When instead I should have focused on actual definition of caster and spell level.

This feat is just about useless :-D

Thanks for the clarification!

This feat is most definitely not useless. It's a very common feat among blaster casters. For example, if you are a 7th level sorcerer, and chose fireball, it would make your fireballs do 9d6 instead of 7d6 damage. For a 1st level human wizard, you can throw 2 magic missiles instead of just one.

Because you can change the specialized spell, you can shift it to another spell as you level up and no longer need the Spell Specialization feat to reach the maximum caster level for the specialized spell.

Yep, this is a very solid feat, assuming you actually have a spell you want to use a lot: If you pick your spells at random each morning, it probably won't help you much...

Likewise, it's not great with spells that don't have level-based factors (Color Spray, for instance).

It is part of a 'fun' Magic Missile build:
Elf with the 'Overwhelming Magic' trait to get Spell Focus (Evocation) for free.
Sorcerer class with the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype for a free Varisian Tattoo (Evocation) feat.
Gifted Adept (Magic Missile) trait.
Spell Specialization (Magic Missile) as your level 1 feat.
You end up with 3 missiles per casting of Magic Missile at level 1, which is absolutely terrifying until you run into creatures...

About lev 7 you change up to Battering Blast.

You get one Force ball per 5CL and each ball does CL/2 d6 damage :Max 5d6.
Then you empower and intensify as your CL goes up.


You take ability Drain, Damage and penalties and then put on said ring.
Do any of the effects get removed?

My thought was ability damage and drain would be unaffected.
My understanding was the damage/Drain gets reduced at the time it's done.
i..e. If you have a Greater Ring and took 5 pts of damage, 8, pts of damage and 4 pts of drain the first dmage would be reduced to 0, the 2nd to 2 pts and the drain to 1 pt if you were wearing the ring when it happened.

But Ability Penalties I wasn't sure on.
Given that penalties are normally been done by an outside effect or condition and when that effect/comdition goes or is suppressed the penalty goes or is suppressed, so is constantly checking.

So if Enlarged you take a -2 penalty to Dex but only so long as the Enlarge is in effect.
Enter an anti-magic field and the -2 Dex penalty goes away.
So if you put a Ring of Inner Fortitude on the Dex Penalty goes away, until you take the ring off again (unless the Enlarge spell has ended).

What do people think?

----------------------
Ring of Inner Fortitude

Alternating diamonds and rubies stud this band of white gold.

Minor: A minor ring of inner fortitude reduces ability damage or temporary ability penalties the wearer takes by 2 points and ability drain by 1 point. If an effect targets multiple ability scores (for example, exhaustion, fatigue, or touch of idiocy), the ring reduces the damage, drain, or penalty for all ability scores.
Major: A major ring of inner fortitude reduces ability damage or temporary penalties by 4 points and reduces ability drain by 2 points.
Greater: A greater ring of inner fortitude reduces ability damage or temporary penalties by 6 points and reduces ability drain by 3 points.
Wearing a ring of inner fortitude does not make the wearer immune to conditions such as fatigued or exhausted even if the wearer ignores all ability damage, drain, or penalties from the condition.

If the ring prevents any damage, drain, or penalties that are associated with a beneficial effect, it also negates the beneficial effect.


The Kingmaker campaign I'm running all the three players have Cohorts.

1) The PC's riding horse got transformed into a Nightmare and became his Cohort.

2) The player advertised for a Cohort over several months. I rolled for random race/classes turning up until he got one he liked with the player having limited input on the exact archtype of the Cohort and the alignment/general classes.

3) The PC's overthrew a ruler of a city state and recruited a Bard at his court who was working as a spy for another nation.

So basically I/they used a variety of approaches based on the circumstances.


PFRPGrognard wrote:
It was a mesmermist built by a min-maxer for my first attempt at playing Curse of the Crimson Throne. He (the player) min-maxed to a ridiculous extent by pushing into old age, tanking strength, and then pushing his INT up as high as possible. To make it even better, he literally ran away from every fight we had leaving three PCs to face most encounters. I was so happy when he fell into a pile of STR-draining spiders, but then we saved him from death. I left the game soon after.

It could be worse. If they not only run away or do nothing, but get upset when they feel someone is stepping in their area.

"I'll be the frontline fighter so no one else should concentrate on that" and then half the time finds an excuse for not been on the frontline. :-(


TxSam88 wrote:
Merellin wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Merellin wrote:

@PossibleCabbage Dont Trappings of the Warrior requier you to have both a weapon and a shield at the same time? How can you wield a shield and a bow? (Sorry, There is still a lot of stuff I dont know about the game..)

bucklers are still a shield
Oh yeah.. You can use a buckler along with a bow! I honestly did not think of that. Thanks! =D
kinda worthless IMO, since you won't get the shield bonus if you make an attack.

Unhindered Shield.

Allows you to use a Buckler while leaving your hand free or using a weapon in the hand.
Nice trick for a Monk who can get the AC bonis from a Buckler without losing their Monk Abilities, and does the same for a Swashbuckler.


MrCharisma wrote:

Honestly the big draw of Eldritch Archer for me is that you can Haste the party and still full-attack the same round.

Being able to throw out some buffs/debuffs/battlefield-control while full-attacking every round seems more important than adding more damage to your damage so you can damage while you damage.

Not that having the option of all that damage is bad, I just wouldn't rate it as the best thing the class can do.

Good point.

Doesn't come up in my group because there is an Arcanist and a Druid in the party as well doing buffs.


Eldritch Archers are nice for sticking offensive spells on one arrow per round, as well as doing a full round of arrow shots.

They do have the weakness that they are limited to Ranged Touch/Ray spells until 9th level.

So Intenseified Shocking Grasp doesn't come in until then.
But 1st lev MudBall and Ray of Emfeblement, 2nd lev Scorching Ray and 3rd lev Battering Blast (via Magus Arcana) and Vampiric Touch are solid spells


Magus - Eldrith Archer is the best I've seen.
Really starts to rock at 9th level.

Ranger/Wizard/Arcane Archer is the weakest I've seen.


Diego Rossi wrote:
yukongil wrote:


I see you have also been incredibly fortunate in who you've played with. My experience with dump-stat characters is far different and far more abusive and non-fun for everyone at the table.
My experience is that none of the GM I know will keep playing with a gamer that routinely dumps stats to try to make the "ultimate" Übermensch.

But they will continue to play with gamers that do every other trick they can think of to make the "ultimate" Übermensch?


Stephen Ede wrote:
Given that in PF any stat can be drained/danaged by some spell/monster out there by definition anyone building a character with a seriously dumped stat is not powerhousing their PC (even if they think they are).
Diego Rossi wrote:

Really? It is powerhousing. Not efficient powerhousing, but still powerhousing.

Seeing how a lot of the players that do that will start a tantrum if something menace the weak stat of their character I view dumping stat at playing in a disruptive way.

A player who throws a tantrum if his character gets threatened is disruptive because he throws tantrums. Not because he dumped a stat.

A person who beats there spouse is bad because they beat their spouse, not because he wears sweaters. Even if one of the excuses for beating their spouse was that they washed a sweater wrong.


I would note that Tetori Monks have the ability to make AOO while grappling, but don't know of any other builds that allow it.


If you have a Shadowbard singing a song giving penalties to the target and the target has True Seeing does it make any difference?

Shadowbard

True seeing


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The note in Unhindered Shield that a Monk doesn't count as using a Shield.

Given the huge range of Pathfinder options I don't think you can expect rules writers to explicitly cover every case.

Because Unhindered Shield does explicitly say that you count as not using a Shield for all cases where this would be relevant. But it doesn't say it only applies to Monks as well.
So by RAW I think you can say maybe.

I'm pretty sure if asked the Designer would probably say "yes, it does apply to similar class features as not using a Shield".


The party Archer was shotting at a target in an Anti-magic zone while he had Aspect of the Falcon up
---------------
You take on an aspect of a falcon. Your eyes become wide and raptor-like, and you grow feathers on the sides of your head. You gain a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks, a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks, and the critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3.

This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon, such as the Improved Critical feat or a keen weapon.
------------------

The general approach is that arrows get the magic bonus to hit but not to damage.

Does the critical threat of 19-20 apply to the target or does the AMF cancel.

Basically is it a to hit or to damage bonus?

What do people think.

Thanks


Also drop some melee mooks in behind the party, back where the Fighter and Alchemist are sitting.

That will keep them on their toes without overwhelming the Hunter+AC and other frontline PCs.

Secret/concealed doors/guard rooms.
Someone Diemension Dooring them in but not hanging around
False ceiling dropping them in.

Again, not every fight but enough to keep them on their toes

Also try using Nets occasionally.
You'll have to learn the Net rules, but that can seriously cramp the style of the Hunter/AC and force the back liners to get involved.

But self nerfing by the PCs is something that can bite the party in the arse later because every now and then PF adventure paths can spike the power level in a way that shuts down certain combat strategies and if some of the players have been self nerfing themselves the party can find itself seriously lacking in alternate plans.


Baa, who needs Strength.
A Griipli Monk/Shaman whose strength started at 5 and eventually got down to 3.
Famous for wearing a Loincloth, bag of ingrediants and not much else. :-)


Enemies with ranged attacks.
If the Alchemist and Fighter sit at the back nerfing themselves you can hit them hard.

Numbers/mooks.
One of the big weaknesses of many PF adventure paths is an over reliance on one or 2 big monsters. They either go down really fast because of a weakness against a certain approach, Action economy, or wipe the floor with the party because the party can't get past a certain ability/feature.
Numbers over quality helps.

Flyers.

And quite simply there's nothing wrong with templates.

Extra hit points for enemies can be useful IF this means they get to do something effective before the fight is over.
If it just means they taqke longer to kill then no.

Have magical buffs running on the enemies. Just insert behind the scenes NPC that is buffing the enemies and leaving without getting involved in the fight.
From memory of rise of the RuneLords there are enough fingers in the pie that you can insert a shodowy interloper taht is helping some of the enemies but not getting involved persoanlly against the party.
At some point well in the furture you can reveal them from the shadows if you like (either for or against the players)
A 12th level Bard/Shaman/Mystic Theurge with lingering Song and a lesser Metamagis Rod of Quickening and the claok that allows you to diemension door would do the job.
Level him up 2 level for every 3 the party gets to keep him relevant.

But don't take just one approach. Chop and change.


I agree with an awful lot of what you say, but Rogues don't work well.
Unchained Rogues on the otherhand do.

Figheters were technically pretty crappy before Weapon/Armour Master stuff came out, but they were easy to have fun with regardless.

Rogues were difficult to have fun with. Not impossible, but the combination of been technically weak and hard to have fun with... but PF1 fixed both Fighters and Rogues. So I don't see that there is much to argue about over Rogues in PF1. It feels a bit like arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Experiance wise - I've played RPGs for 38 years involving quite a few systems and various groups, am currently playing 3 games a week with 2 different groups and have done some GMing, mostly PF1. Played PF1 in at least one of my games at any particular time for most of the period since it came out.

The1Ryu wrote:
Rogue Fact Checker wrote:
The1Ryu wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
The1Ryu wrote:
Dude why are you casting me as the bad actor here, I'm just having a discussion

No, you are not. You are not even attempting to see the conversation from any viewpoint but your own. You are denying everything that anyone else says and putting forth your viewpoint as the only valid one. For there to be a discussion there must be the possibility of changing minds. Yours has appeared to be made up from the very first post.

No I’m making counter points and when people’s arguments involve them misrepresenting game rules to say the other game is better that just shows they are incorrect. Also why am I the only one who has to be willing to change their mind, which I’m looking for example to prove you point not asserting points for mine, should those that choose to engage in the conversation also be willing to change their mind?

There are easy arguments you can make vs PF2e and the same against PF1e. Saying PF1e can be overly complex to it's detriment is a fact. It's a simulationist game vs a more Rules lite game. The fact that PF2e has less rules minutiae is a simple fact. Do I think that makes it a "better" game? No. Do I believe that can carry it's own appeal? Sure! Do I think you might be disingenuous with some of your arguments? Yes, some bordering on intellectual dishonesty.

Maneuvers being awful without the feat is a simple fact. You provoke, and if the attack of opportunity hits, take anywhere between 1-40 penalty on your maneuvers now. Baiting AoOs so you don't provoke is always a crapshoot.

There are literally hundreds of threads proving mathematically and thematically that the Rogue is an awfully designed class. Same with Fighter pre-weapon master handbook. There's no reason to play a Rogue besides having the words "Rogue" on your character sheet.

Again I’m not arguing which is better I’m asking for examples to show that the claim 2e is better is...


I did quite well with a Grippli Monk 1/Shaman taking the Wind Spirit and the Air Shield Hex.
Get the 2nd lev of Monk at some point you can afford it.

Grippli gives you +2 Dex and Wisdom and Small.

So +1 AC Small
+4 AC Air Shield Hex (increasing as you go up in Shaman levels)
+ x AC for Dex
+ y AC for Wisdom

Sure it has spell casting if you want more AC but it's standard AC is pretty good.


Alternate systems is one idea that someone suggested that I would second.

Something to clear the palates fo both players and GMs.

Also Modules are great for the people who don't have the time to GM.

A pathfinder Module with 15-20 pt buildand no pure caster build (Classes that get 9th lev spells).

These can be run by someone with minimal out of game time by the GM.
Let you play for a bit and someone else GM.

I know as a player of nearly 40 years I love random Stat generation and systems that give random mutations or other abilities and those "roll dice to give character background" wonderful for giving me ideas for my character.
Give me a frame work and I can come up with a character to fit it. But I hate point build in part because I have to decide what the hell my character is before I buy stats. :-(


How do you stop this other than by making the save?
Protection Evil/Good/Chos/Law. the stalwarts don't work, so what do you do?

More to the point is there a fairly available way of doing so?
This been Pathfinder there is always some way but often they are very rare/situationally specific.

Thanks


I'll second all the comments regarding Unchainbed Rogue if anyone wants to play Rogue.
Standard Rogue should simply be retired as a class, it's that bad.

Unchained Rogue is a viable class, generally working with most Rogue Archtypes.
In particular if the characters Dex is good enough that she can get full advantage from the free Weapon Finesses + Dex damage, and toss in the Debilitating injury and she might well make a good partner for a Vivisectionist Alchemist.

Just remember your Extracts can be used on her as well as you and I'm sure you'll get on fine. :-)


The scrying speel modifys the will save based on how well you know your target.
What constitutes "Met".
Knowledge of the subject -
"Firsthand (you have met the subject) +0"
"Secondhand (you have heard of the subject) +5"

For example you were in a room with a number of people but you neither talked with them or remember them.

As above but you were in a joint conversation but you have no recollection of them beyond "yeah, there was a third person in the conversation but can't remember anything other than the fact that there was someone".

You pass them on a street with no intereaction or awareness (I have both walked past people I know and had them walk past me with one of us having no awareness of the other unless physical interaction or shouting at the unaware person).

On the other side of a door or wall from someone, possibly with a few words exchanged (Person A - "I have a summons for you", Person B - "Go away or I'll call the police").

You fought an invisible person for 1 combat round.

You were 50' away from a glitterdusted invisble person in combat for a round before they ported away.

What do people think?
Met, not met, or something inbetween, i.e. a penalty somewhere between 0 and -5.

Thanks


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The Druid.

The 3rd Ed Druid, which is basically also the PF Druid, they took all the features that could be nice as a Druid and said "here, you can have them all".

I wish they had instead setup the Druid as three ability;/power trees.
A) Spellcasting
B) Shapeshifting
C) Animal Companions

Set each ability as having 3 levels of power i.e.
Spellcasting -
Lev 3 - Full caster (as is)
Lev 2 - Semi caster (Magus/Bard level)
Lev 1 - Dabbler (Ranger/Paladin level)

Give the starting Druid 6 "build pts" with Lev 1 costing 1, lev 2 = 2pts, lev 3 = 3pts.

So you can be Lev 2 at everything, or lev 3 at one thing, lev 2 at another and lev 3 at one thing.

Currently a Druid is lev 3 Caster - full bells and whistles.
About lev 2.75 Shapeshifter
lev 2 Animal Companions

The Hunter is is some ways almost an attempts at creating a lev 3 Animal Companion/Lev 2 Spell caster with no shapeshifting.

And it's really interesting.
But the Druid is just stonkingly powerful because it gets everything.
And is at the same time a combination of boring/confusing because it gives so much it's hard to actually track everything and trying to do so it becomes easy to drop in to a number crunching game. :-(

Hell the most enjoyable Druid I ever played I simply pretended the Wildshaping didn't exist because it let me concentrate on actually been the character and roleplaying the relationship with his "wolf brother"


I would note that there are ways to cast Enlarge Person on yourself even if you aren't a Humanoid. Had to do it for a build once.

This is PathFinder afterall.
You can almost always find a way around general rules if you look hard enough. :-)


wraithstrike wrote:
Balkoth wrote:
So...it sounds like SR will prevent an image from being destroyed? That seems to be the consensus?
Yes, at least for now.

Sorry to Necro a thread but I just realised I wasn't sure about one aspect of this conclusion.

If the Scorching Ray targets an image it has to get past SR to destroy the image.
That's understood.

Does that also count if the Scorching ray misses by 4 or less?
Do you still have to roll against SR to see if an image is destroyed if the spell didn't even hit?


Anyway Now that I get the words right (facepalm)

So you You make a Cleave Attack with the Improved Vital Strike Feat.

Using Cleaving Smash you get to apply Vital Strike damage to both the 1st attack and the secondary Cleave attack.

Do you also add it to the damage for the Attack you get from Mighty Cleave?

Apologies for screwing up the initial question heading


MrCharisma wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
First your title doesn't match the post.

I believe the title meant to say "Cleaving Smash", not "Cleaving Finish".

Now if you add Cleaving Finish on top of that you can potentially make 4 attacks as part of that standard action.

Then add Cornugon Smash and Hurtful to make it 5.

Doh. Looked at it several times but kept reading what I meant to type rather than what I actually typed.


Might Cleave doesn't give you the Cleave Feat, it requires you have the Cleave feat and gives you an additional attack in addition to what the Cleave feat gives you.

So the Cleave feat says if you make a Cleave Action you attack "A" and if you successfully hit you can then make an attack against "B" if "B" is adjacent to "A".

Mightly Cleave says if you make a Cleave Action and successfully hit "A" you can on top of the attack on "B" from the Cleave feat make an assitional attack on "B" or another tarhet adjacent to "A" make another attack using the Mighty Cleave ability.

That makes a total of 3 attacks.


I was looking for what a 25lb cauldron swung by it's support chains would be rated equivalent to for damage dice.

All improvised weapons have to be matched as comparable to a melee weapon to calculate the damage dice according to improvised weapon rules.


Cleaving Smash
Additional Prerequisite(s): Cleave, Improved Vital Strike, Power Attack

When you use Cleave, you can add the additional damage from Vital Strike to both your initial and your secondary attacks. If you also have the Greater Vital Strike feat, you can instead add the damage from Improved Vital Strike to both your initial and your secondary attacks.
-----------------
A mighty cleaving weapon allows a wielder using the Cleave feat to make one additional attack if the first attack hits, as long as the next foe is adjacent to the first and also within reach. This additional attack cannot be against the first foe.
---------------------

As I read it you get to add the Vital Strike damage to all 3 attacks.
Correct?


BENSLAYER wrote:
I would treat along the lines of a Battlepot Cauldron, which states that it can be wielded 2H as a +1 Heavy Mace, (using the handles), but unlike the Battelpot Cauldron it would still be treated as an Improvised Weapon.

That sounds a pretty good fit.

Pity the cauldron itself is such a low caster level.
Only counts as a +2 enhancement with the Shikigami Style feats.

Was looking at using the Cauldron of Plenty, 25lbs.
You can make dinner when not hitting people with it and it's CL12 = +3 Enhancement bonus.
Although I see Cauldron of Firewrks is also 25lbs and CL17 = +4 Enhancement and can be used as a ranged weapon with the fireworks ability.

I thought in battle a large cauldron would best be wielded by using chains tied to the handles.
Cauldrons were sometimes used by hanging them by chains running through loops/handles around the rim.

So maybe a 25lb cauldron weilded by chains would be a heavy Flail?
Maybe a large Heavy Flail?


"To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match."

Just thinking about an amusing Vital Strike Improvised weapon Barbarian character weilding a magical cauldron in battle. :-)


Matthew Downie wrote:

To speak of "optimizing" enemies implies finding clever ways to increase their killing power without increasing their CR.

When I do it it's usually because I look and the players capabilities vs the Monster who's CR is supposed to be2-3 CR higher than the party and his flunkys that are supposed to be 4 CR lower than the party and think "the PCs are going to wade through them without breaking a sweat unless they have one of their brainfart days, and even then all that'd do is make them break a light sweat if they roll badly."

Often it's stuff like "The PCs can fly and the monster is unable to touch them".
And of course module designers love their Cleave/Great Cleave and Vital Strike chains with power attack (roll eyes).
Which do f-all unless the monsters roll crits, and then there's just a chance a PC might go down/die.

I "optimise" to get the good guys to actually require the amount of effort from the murder hobos known as PCs to actually meet the CR value of the encounter.

(I admit that I'm been a bit harsh on my current group who despite been mostly evil often make a real effort to recruit or negotiate with the NPCS - although in one case that negotiation was PC peels off his skin and say "I'm going to kill you, skin you and wear your skin, but if you tell us everything we want to know I'll do it in that order")


I'd note that some spells do work through scrying.
Normal Scrying only allows a 5% chance per CL of detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message working.

With Greater Scry it becomes guaranteed.

And the Medusas gaze is not a spell but rather a supernatural ability.

I think it's a real 50/50 call as whether it should work.

Personally as a GM I would probably say yes on Greater Scry, but require the equvalent of CL check for supernatural gaze abilities to function through a Scry.


You can always sell your soul via the Devilbound template.
Gives you Regen 5/Good spells or weapons.
Makes you very hard to kill, which is useful since death becomes a likely career ending injury once you get this template.


"She instead treats the following infusions and wild talents as though they were part of the aether element "

I would take that as replace all mentions in the following infusions/wild Talents of "xxxx element" with "aether element".

It seems highly likely that this is RAI and to be honest it's also RAW for many users of english. That is, a grammer expert might disagree but more than a few people would write that and consider that they had actually said what we think they intended to say.

English is a sloppy language.


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One thing that wasn't directly addressed in your example.
You can cast more 1st level spells by using your 2nd level spell slots.


Persistent Dazing FlameBlade is just as bad.

Basically Persistent Dazing Metamagic is broken in boss fights (hell, it's broken in most fights) unless the oppoent has good Spell Resistance.


I've seen the difference between theoretical and real high level parties.
The closest I've come to TPKing high level parties is when I crafted combats to be hard but defeatable given their standard gear up/prep, only to have them get sloppy/experimental and make bad assumptions.
I ended up scrambling to avoid TPKing the party.

People get sloppy and over confident.

Hint: When they party is taking a small amount of energy damage each round that forces a moderate save or be screwed if they take any damage, blocking the damage is crucial. The attitude "oh, we'll just kill the monsters rather than waste time pulling up communal protection from x energy type, because the saves aren't that hard" will likely lead to TPK.


I played a Shaman for 14 levels, and while I reasonably frequently took Arcane Enlightenment as my Wandering Hex I'm pretty sure it wasn't my most common wandering Hex.
So by definition is wasn't over powered.

That's because it requires you take the Lore Spirit as your Wandering Spirit. When I chose a Wandering Spirit I chose it for the Spells, Special abilities and Hexes. Although about 1/2 the time I took Lore Spirit as my Wandering Spirit it was to get Legend Lore which was on the Spirit Magic List. :-)

Sure, if their was a Spell/s that I needed for an upcoming situation that I could only get from the Wizards spell list I'd take it (but often I would find the spell I wanted on the Spirits Magic spell list) but that wasn't a very common situation. It's not like Shamans are short on spells and depending on the situation there are many very useful Hexes and special abilities out there.

Other Wandering Spirits I used frequently were -
Fire - For Flame Curse, and Fireball spell (sure Fireball is not that powerful but it is fun and great for scaring off mooks)
Life - for Restoration/Lesser Restoration and the Enhanced Cures Hex was a nice bonus.
Mammoth - Stoneskin as a 4th lev spell (we were playing a house rule that limited spells to 4th level) and the Mammoth Hide Hex was nice.
Slums - probably my most common wandering Spirit for the Doors to Everywhere (Ex). That was incredibly useful. Add in Charm Person, Hold Person, Confusion and the Accident Hex and yeah. Was almost my default Wandering Spirit.
Stone - Crystal Sight. Man, the ability to see through Stone walls probably came closer to breaking some adventures more than anything else. It even let me see in to a room with leadlined stone wall. Specifically set up to stop magic scanning of the room.
Tribe - This didn't exist when I started playing my Shaman or it would've seen use for the Curse of Faltering Hex.
Waves - This was also a very popular Spirit for the Water Sight Hex. Thick Mists hiding our enemies suddenly became no problem. And the Spirit Spell list was great for water encounters.

In a way the Lore Spirit as a wandering Spirit does eptomise the Shaman Class as a whole. Shamans are about verstility. Give them a nights warning and they can shape their abilities to what the party needs more than any one else IMHO. They aren't the best at anything but they can be good enough at everything and you can make pretty much any concept work ok (I was a Melee fighter with Flameblade and a 2 level Monk Dip).

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