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You're gonna go with "they started it?"
Alright, well. I've said my peace. Carry on.
You know how Paladins power their channel positive energy with lay on hands? I was thinking, what if warpriests powered their channel energy with Warpriest Points, that could also be used to swift-cast personal and touch spells on themselves. They could have a cleric's full channel energy progression, and access to channel feats. I say, go ahead and bake Channel Smite in, and leave Guided Hand as an option for people who loved the favored weapon. Warpriest Points would be based on Wisdom, so the class no longer has a strong need for Charisma. With six levels of spells, options for Guided Hand, swift casting, and only Wisdom, Strength, and helping from Constitution and Dexterity needed, you have a fairly solid skeleton for a class that can favor either Strength or Wisdom. All that's left, then is, dealing with sacred weapon and armor. I suggest making them both swift actions that grant one minute per class level in duration, and powering it with Warpriest Points.
I've been using this:
Desperate Prayer (Su): In their most dire moments, a Warpriest can flood divine energy through themselves with but a thought. Starting at 3rd level, once per day, a Warpriest can cast one of their warpriest spells with a casting time of 1 standard action or less as a free action on his turn, ignoring any components, without provoking an attack of opportunity, or requiring a concentration check under any circumstances. This ability cannot be used with any spell with a material or focus component costing more than 1 gp, nor can it ever be used more than once per round. At 9th level and 17th level, he can use this ability one additional time per day.
@Ciretose
You seem to be under the impression that people who think the rangers favored enemy is bad are bad people.
Citation?
I think the people who think the rangers favored enemy is bad are wrong.
That's funny (or rather, I think you're just saying that in order to present a half credible defense). It seemed to me that moments earlier, you were implying that people who thinks FE works badly were complaining for no reason, and would do so whatever material they were presented with. Or was that not your point in comparing people's concerns about the warpriest to other people's concerns about the Favored Enemy mechanic?
You're also attempting to tell me that I dislike the rangers favored enemy mechanic. I don't. Please refrain from making baseless assumptions.
I disagree with you on the matter of the warpriest and their sacred weapon. I agree with you that rangers are just fine where they are.
I dislike you, personally, as I see a trend in your posts, where you attack people and their argumentation. This rethoric may work in political debate, but on forums it just produces rage. I wish you'd see that. For example, that last bit of your post.
If you think that everyone who thinks you are wrong about something does so because they think you are a bad person...
Is quite clearly designed to insinuate that I'm unable to tell the difference between disagreement and dislike, which is simply an insult.
It's a more rethorically sophisticated way of going "You're mentally retarded" by mere insinuation. It refrains from owning up to the statement, so if someone calls you out on it you can always go "quote or gtfo."Please stop with the battle rethoric. You're creating an atmosphere where it's hard to disagree with you without disliking you. It's quite uncouth, and most annoying to deal with.
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You're gonna go with "they started it?"Alright, well. I've said my peace. Carry on.
I'm going to go with I'm going to respond if someone in a thread about a topic posts something I disagree with, particularly if they specifically cite me or ask me a question.
I created a new thread to try and move the topic over there. That the topic and keeps getting brought up by others isn't my fault.
The alternative is to not give input when people say things I disagree with, and given the nature of the intent of this discussion...
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That's funny (or rather, I think you're just saying that in order to present a half credible defense). It seemed to me that moments earlier, you were implying that people who thinks FE works badly were complaining for no reason, and would do so whatever material they were presented with.@Ciretose
You seem to be under the impression that people who think the rangers favored enemy is bad are bad people.
Citation?
I think the people who think the rangers favored enemy is bad are wrong.
No, I said many of same people who are complaining about favored weapons would complain about favored enemies as well.
And it turns out, I was right.
You've had one example. that's hardly "many"
You've had one example. that's hardly "many"At least two actually.
Two quotes that two people dislike both the warpriests sacred weapon being lockedd to favored weapon and Favored enemy?
And even then, how does two people's oppinion constitute "many"?
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Just going to quote this since some posters might have missed it, this thread moves fairly fast after all...
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Init +12 ; Senses , Perception +13
AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +6 Dex)
hp 63 (7d8+28)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +8
Speed: 20 ft.
Melee: +1 Flaming Scimitar +13 (1d6+7/18-20 x2, +1d6 fire)
Ranged: MW Longbow +12 (1d8/x3) 100 ft.
Spells
Level 0 (∞/day)
Create Water, Guidance, Detect Magic, Light, _____
Level 1 (5/day)
Divine Favor, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Obscuring Mist, _____
Level 2 (4/day)
Aid, Summon Monster II, _____, _____
Level 3 (2/day)
Prayer, _____
Str 8, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +4; CMD 22
Feats Weapon Finesss, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Improved Initiative, Dervish Dance, Combat Casting, Step Up, Quick Draw, Lunge
Traits Reactionary, Flame of the Dawnflower
Skills Perception +13, Climb +4, Perform (Dance) +2, Diplomacy +10, Knowledge (Religion) +6, Swim +4
SQ Blessings (Minor) (Good and Fire), Focus Weapon (Scimitar), Orisons, Channel Energy 2d6, Sacred Weapon +1, Sacred Armor +1
Equipment/Loot
+1 Mirrored Mithral Kikko Armor
+1 Flaming Scimitar
MW Longbow, 20 arrows
Handy Haversack
Belt of +2 Dex, Headband of +2 Wis
Takeaways from Building a Warpriest
1. Good God is this class frontloaded.
As a human warpriest I pulled in four, count'em, FOUR feats at first level (human bonus, +level 1, +Focus Weapon, + class bonus). That's more than a fighter, and I"m getting 2 good saves, and some spells on top of that. For a game that is generally against dips/multiclassing, this is currently the best level 1 dip in the game. It's straight better than a fighter except you lose 1 BAB. Woo. It's spell progression is only slightly worse than a Cleric. Now I can't take Cleric or Fighter levels with this class but I can take Barbarian, Paladin, Cavalier, Druid, Ranger, Slayer, Hunter, Ninja, or Monk levels.
Getting so much at the early levels actually leads to another problem...
2. I don't what to do for 7 levels:
So, as you can see, I went for a dex focused Dervish Dancing priest of Sarenrae. I did this for a couple reasons that I'll detail later, but needless to say after level 3 I didn't really know what to do. I had my key feats, and 4 others that are kind of nice. And then what? Metamagic feats are off the table except for extend spell because the cleric list doesn't really gain much from empowering, maximizing, or expanding it's list of almost 0 blasting spells. Quicken is going to be off the table for the warpriest until at least level 11, if not level 13. Well, at least I count as a fighter for selecting feats... wait, I don't? So what do I spend the 5 feats I get from levels 4 through 10 on? Trust me when I tell you that it won't be Combat maneuvers, and there's not too much that can be done with a dex-based swordsman. TWF? Can't afford the attack penalties. Pirahna strike? Only for light weapons. No Arcane Strike for me? Channel Smite isn't that good unless you channel negative energy, and I don't do that.
If someone's got any ideas, or I'm missing something, let me know. Of course, I could spend them on something to try and shore up the class' serious weakness...
3. Ranged combat is going to be a problem
Say what you want about the Cleric spell list, and it is quite good, but it certainly isn't very blasty. I chose to do a dex build specifically so that I wouldn't be incompetent when it came to ranged combat. This is the only way you'll have to deal with flying enemies until you get air-walk at 10th level. Now imagine if I had dumped dex and had gone with strength how bad those attack rolls would be. Put a 12 in there for example. What was once +12, is now +7. The average AC of a CR 7 creature (per the bestiary) is 20 (NPCs will be higher than that). That's a chance of 40% to even hit, while doing both jack and squat for actual damage.
But why do you have to dump strength or dex? That's because...
4. It's a MAD, MAD world
"Hey kids do you love how the Monk has 5 stats he needs to keep reasonably high?"
"BOOOOOO!"
"I thought so! Well get ready for a class that has 6 stats he needs to keep reasonably high!"
"Wut."
That class is this class because recklessly combining two classes that typically dump each other important stat (fighter wis and cha, clerics str or dex + int) leads to problems. How can this be, I'll explain by going down, stat by stat, why each one is something your going to hate dumping.
STR: Are you using a finessable or ranged weapon? If not then this stat will need to be high for you to actually hit things. You'll either dump this or Dexterity, and even then only somewhat because eventually you'll start getting armors that reward a greater investment in dexterity.
DEX: If you're a Dervish/TWF/Archer type guy this will be your go-to stat. Otherwise it's your most likely dump stat. You have heavy armor, after all. I went Dervish to help make this class more SAD (and therefore happy) when it came to attack and damage in combat.
CON: Because you don't ever dump this.
INT: If you want to do combat maneuvers with combat expertise you'll need at least a 14 here, so you probably just won't be doing those. Oh, and you only get two skill points/level, so nuking this is pretty much going to end any chance of contributing outside of combat, or not falling down in grease, without the use of the few spells you have.
WIS:This gives you access to your spells, so you won't ever dump this.
CHA: Your class relies on this for channel energy's uses per day and DC, so dumping it is probably removing a class feature from your arsenal. By the same token, you have diplomacy as a class skill, so that is probably something you wan't to be able to use.
Are there things you can dump in there? Dex or strength, probably. Are almost all of them going to noticeably negatively effect how you perform in combat or out of combat? Yep.
In review
The class isn't unworkable or broken by any means. As a secondary martial/tank guy, it's fantastic. Good to-hit, damage, and free boosts with his primary weapon, and some spells to buff himself. He can even provide some utility with the spells he can prepare each day or at a given moment.It can't be your primary martial character, though. It relies too much on standard actions to buff itself for most of the levels of the game, and doesn't have the in-combat flexibility of even a fighter who can boost his secondary weapon with more feats and weapon training 2. If you want a primary caster, just play a cleric, who comes with the same HD, BAB, saves, to go along with the extra spells.
I plan on doing a more in-depth playtest of the class to see what it can accomplish given a variety of combats/scenarios.
Interesting reading Squirrel! Have you seen the latest update on the Warpriest in the Paizo blog? They seem to be taking steps to resolve some of the issues you mention - like making the class slightly less MAD by cutting Channel Energy.
I really hope they bump up the skill points, but I'm pessimistic in that particular area. Really I wish every class would get at least 4 ranks per level.
Actually I'll quote the blog post here, it's convenient to have it on hand here in case someone wants to brush up on the text:
We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game.
The full blog can be found here.
Interesting reading Squirrel! Have you seen the latest update on the Warpriest in the Paizo blog? They seem to be taking steps to resolve some of the issues you mention - like making the class slightly less MAD by cutting Channel Energy.
I really hope they bump up the skill points, but I'm pessimistic in that particular area. Really I wish every class would get at least 4 ranks per level.Actually I'll quote the blog post here, it's convenient to have it on hand here in case someone wants to brush up on the text:
We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game.The full blog can be found here.
I've read it. I'm kind of holding off on doing a more full playtest until the update comes out. I should add that the build was made with a 25 point buy, and even then I was pretty stretched thin to try and accomplish all that I did. The MAD issue is a big one,and cutting channel energy would help, but that's kind of cutting off the nose to spite the face. The channel energy feature is fine, the reason that it's hard to use would still be there, though.I would support moving it to being wisdom based, as others have already suggested.
Would need to check the PrC's reqs., but I I think this might make a very good entry to the Holy Vindicator.
Ciretose, I'm going to put this as succinctly as I can: One word on one line of a chart does not equate to flavor in any meaningful sense of the word. Saying that Shelyn favors the glaive tells me nothing about how to roleplay one of her followers, and in fact is likely to give the completely wrong idea taken in isolation. You keep harping on and on about flavor in relation to something that in the vast majority of cases is arbitrary; if you want to enforce flavor on the warpriest, devise deity-specific codes of behavior, religious dogma, the ideals of the deity, in short things that actually have some form of substance that informs how one would/should roleplay the character. Favored weapon doesn't do that in any meaningful way.Do you mean like what they have in the faiths books?
Or the history and descriptions readily available on the Wiki? (and other sources)
They have core values for most, if not all the gods online and in a number of source books.
Dogma, Tenets, History, Why she uses the Glaive, how her followers are expect to behave... It's all there, what more do you want?
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Shelyn was brought up in this thread specifically because she is one of the very few deities that has a genuine connection to her favored weapon, and even so she's very unlikely to actually use the Whisperer of Souls in combat. Considering the history Shelyn has with Glaives (Zon-Kuthon regularly sends her glaives as a dark joke which she keeps in a secret collection), you'd think most Shelyn clergy would actually prefer to use another weapon.
But even so, fair enough - Shelyn has an association with the Glaive. How about Gorum? How about Cayden Cailean? Why does the God of Strength, Battle and Weapons throw a hissyfit if one of his warpriests picks up a bastard sword instead of a greatsword? Why does the God of Freedom require his warpriests to focus to exclusion on a single weapon?
The questions you ask have been asked, answered, discussed, and bandied over repeatedly in the last 400 posts. I understand that going back and reading the entire thread is a daunting task at the moment, but we've been asked to focus on helpful comments and constructive feedback.
Prolonging the favored weapon debacle is neither.
@Squirrel Dude
Yeah, I'm waiting for the revised version of the Warpriest to do some more testing as well, I'm hoping it'll be released in time for some playtesting this weekend but it's looking unlikely at the moment. Do you think you have time to make a similar build with cleric and see how it measures up against the Warpriest?
@Squirrel Dude
Yeah, I'm waiting for the revised version of the Warpriest to do some more testing as well, I'm hoping it'll be released in time for some playtesting this weekend but it's looking unlikely at the moment. Do you think you have time to make a similar build with cleric and see how it measures up against the Warpriest?
A level 7 shouldn't take too long.
Meanwhile, I do have some ideas on what to do with the favored weapon update. I would suggest changing it to this.
- The deity's favored weapon/target of Focus weapon can have the effects of Sacred Weapon applied or remove from it as a free action when the Warpriest is holding it.
- The Warpriest can apply this bonus to any weapon he is holding as a move action. Removing the bonus is also a move action.
- This bonus can only be applied to one weapon at a time, or two ends of one double-weapon.
- It's takes a move action to apply the bonuses of sacred armor.
This way the Warpriest is still encouraged to use a favored weapon through the opportunity cost of not being able to change weapons quickly, move into melee range as quickly, or apply the bonus to his armor. I don't really feel like a Warpriest should need to pray and waste his time to make his weapon more awesome if it's this super awesome flavor-filled favored weapon of his deity.
Let me try and work on the cleric. Probably won't do as much of a breakdown because there isn't as much new ground to cover. May talk a bit about my problems with the Warpriest's niche filling (lack there of), though. Going to make a Human Cleric of Sarenrae that also uses a Scimitar and Dervishes about.
I think it's an interesting solution and I really like the nod to TWF, but is there a particular reason why you limit it to double-weapons? A warpriest of Achaekek might want to DW sawtooth sabres (sabers?) for instance.
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Tried out a level 4 two hand Warpriest to see how he stacked up against my two hand Inquisitor. Party: Warpriest, Slayer (or Hunter, the favored enemy one), Shaman.
20 point buy, human, Good and Protection blessings.
Stats: (Off the top of my head, left the sheet at the GM's house)
Str: 14
Dex: 13
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 10
Feats:
Power Attack, Toughness, Furious Focus, Dodge (IIRC)
Weapon:
Earthbreaker (I wanted a two hand warhammer, so the GM bent the rules a tad here. Could have gone greatsword instead but we decided to not make an issue of it.)
We did a really basic dungeon crawl as we were testing viability mechanically, the RP elements can vary from character to character so we were not terribly interested in testing those out as they're pretty much subject to the whims of the player.
Ran into some zombies, which were a slightly problem for the bludgeoning damage, but with two hand power attack and the Good Blessing he powered through them, some skeletons came up next, same thing. Large Possesed Armored ghost thingee (failed my knowledge roll and haven't the slightest clue what it actually was) damned near one shot me with a two hand power attack that had no trouble hitting. I backed up, cast a heal and went defensive and prayed. He missed the next attack and our Slayer crit him. Huzzah! The BBEG was a lich that was going to be next so we all stopped and buffed up to see what the "maximum possible" was, and I realized that the Warpriest was pretty much equivalent to my Inquisitor only the action economy was horrid. Standard action for each buff and blessing, and the duration on the Sacred Weapon was prohibitively short at lower levels when tied to the fact that missing with your one attack a round still blows the round of use. Yes, Inquisitor Bane works the same way, but with Judgement and Buffs the Inquisitor had a, normally, higher to hit bonus than my Warpriest. So far my group mainly considers the class a wash which is a pity because the personality is precisely how I play my Inquisitor of Melann (Ptolus setting). He's a flail wielding, armor wearing, hard fighting devout Inquisitor of his goddess and we thought that the boost to the party's spell casting from 6 levels of cleric spells would be nice, but the poor action economy really just turns him into either a buff battery (which cleric/wizard/sorc/oracle can do better) or a more slowly engaging Inquisitor which is what I already play.
In regards to the favored weapon stuff:
It's frustrating to have to tie my character's actions/beliefs to a god simply due to a weapon. If I want to play a Sigmar-esque holy warrior I'm better off going paladin or cleric instead of war priest right now. Ditto for some sort Crusading Priest (I know there's an archtype for that, but you'd think that Warpriest would be better off for it.) It just really doesn't make sense to me to tie each individual warpriest so tightly to the weapon choice. You're put into a position of picking what your character thinks and feels based off the mental image you have of your character's weapons and equipment, rather than finding a god/goddess that fits both the exterior image and the inner thoughts/feelings I want to invoke or portray. I'm interested in how they plan to balance out the favored weapons in the next go over, but right now I'm strongly in favor of decoupling the sacred weapon ability from the favored weapon of the god/goddess or some other solution that allows both ranged and melee weapons as well as weapons that make sense for the circumstance. While it is true that weapon training, feats and other permanent abilities function only for certain weapons, it is also true that those abilities are functioning for the entire day. Sacred weapon is the rough equivalent of Judgement mixed with Bane. It boosts hit/damage and possibly the qualities of the weapon, but it also only functions for a few rounds per day. (2 minutes at max level, I think?)
@Ciretose:
After lurking here for a very long time, I must say you are the only poster who's posts I actively avoid reading due to the number of threads that I've been interested that get snarrled up in circular arguments due to your participation in them. Your participation in this thread has made reading through it to catch up an excruciating exercise in self control. Please realize that not everyone who disagrees with you, or desires a slightly more effective weapon than a dagger is someone who is attempting to munchkin the game out solely for mechanical advantage, nor should they be sent off to play another game for doing so. This game is based on both mechanics and fluff. Enforcing either one over the other simply on the basis that they are somehow mutually exclusive is, in fact, a poor way to go about things. Hopefully the new favored weapon rules with fulfill your flavor demands while providing the options that other posters are looking for.
Init +13 ; Senses , Perception +13
AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +6 Dex)
hp 63 (7d8+28)
Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +8
Speed: 30 ft.
Melee: +1 Flaming Scimitar +14 (1d6+8/18-20 x2, +1d6 fire)
Ranged: MW Longbow +13 (1d8/x3) 100 ft.
Spells
Level 0 (∞/day)
Create Water, Guidance, Detect Magic, Light, _____
Level 1 (5/day)
Divine Favor, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Obscuring Mist, _____
Level 2 (4/day)
Aid, Summon Monster II, _____, _____
Level 3 (2/day)
Prayer, _____
Special Attacks Channel Energy 2d6 (DC 13 Will) 3/day
Str 8, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +4; CMD 23
Feats Weapon Finesss, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Improved Initiative, Dervish Dance, Combat Casting, Step Up, Quick Draw, Lunge
Traits Reactionary, Flame of the Dawnflower
Skills Perception +13, Climb +4, Perform (Dance) +2, Diplomacy +10, Knowledge (Religion) +6, Swim +4
SQ Blessings (Minor) (Good and Fire), Focus Weapon (Scimitar), Orisons, Channel Energy 2d6, Sacred Weapon +1, Sacred Armor +1
Equipment/Loot
+1 Mirrored Mithral Kikko Armor
+1 Flaming Scimitar
MW Longbow, 20 arrows
Handy Haversack
Belt of +2 Dex, Headband of +2 Wis
Init +12 ; Senses , Perception +14
AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +6 Dex)
hp 56 (7d8+21)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +9
Speed: 30 ft.
Melee: +1 Flaming Scimitar +12 (1d6+7/18-20 x2, +1d6 fire)
Ranged: MW Light Crossbow +12 (1d8/19-20 x2) 80 ft.
Spells
Level 0 (4/day)
Create Water, Guidance, Detect Magic, Light
Level 1 (5+1/day)
Divine Favor, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Obscuring Mist, _____, Shield of Faith OR
Level 2 (4+1/day)
Aid, Summon Monster II, _____, _____, Bless Weapon OR
Level 3 (3+1/day)
Prayer, Blindness/Deafness, _____, Heroism OR
Level 4 (2+1/day)
Air Walk, Divine Power, Holy Smite OR
Special Attacks Channel Energy 4d6 (DC 14 Will) 4/day
Str 8, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 12
Base Atk +5; CMB +4; CMD 22
Feats Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Dervish Dance, Combat Casting, Extend Spell
Traits Reactionary, Flame of the Dawnflower
Skills Perception +14, Climb +4, Perform (Dance) +3, Diplomacy +11, Knowledge (Religion) +6, Swim +4
SQ Domains (Restoration, Glory)
Special Abilities
- Restorative Touch: Remove Dazed, sickened, staggered, shaken, or staggered (7/day)
- Touch of Glory: +cleric level to Cha skill checks (7/day)
- Healer's Blessing: All cure spells auto-empowered
Equipment/Loot
+1 Mirrored Mithral Kikko Armor
+1 Flaming Scimitar
MW Light Crossbow, 20 bolts
Handy Haversack
Belt of +2 Dex, Headband of +2 Wis
@Kudaku: I just didn't think of that situation. It makes sense if you're holding two of the same favored weapon that you would want to apply the power to both. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it, though I do have some hangups of a class completely circumventing WPL for their weapons.
one of the problems i'm having is you have access to shields but cant use them and cast. it would be nice to jump into combat and be able to use a shield the whole time while buffing and healing yourself, i mean you have access to heavy armor so you might want to tank but you have to have a free hand to cast and the only shield you can use is a buckler which wont give you bonuses half the time you use it since you will be buffing and healing yourself.
my suggestion is adding in something like: when wielding your deity's favored weapon your hand counts as a free hand when casting divine spells
also i really like the focus on the deity's favored weapon so maybe something like: you count as a fighter of your Warpriest level when selecting feats that pertain to your deity's favored weapon
doing both those instead of channel energy since lets face it if you want to be a healer go oracle or cleric
To the developers:
You have a clear choice. You can side with mostly just Ciretose in his attempt to enforce his obsession with favored weapons through shouting, or you can side with those who want only to not have Ciretose's obsession with favored weapons forced upon them. Any attempt at finding a compromise between the positions is forcing favored weapons on those who want a class that works equally well in any setting and for a diversity of builds.
Besides, from a logistical standpoint I don't believe you can balance favored weapons. Making the dagger, light crossbow, and whip all just as viable as the longbow and scimitar will require an enormous amount of page space, probably as much as two spell lists since to make all weapons equal without simply ignoring everything that makes a club different from a musket will require an entry for every weapon. Every single weapon, not just those used by gods in Golarion because this is supposed to be a setting agnostic book. Such an undertaking might be possible in a Golarion splat where many weapons can be ignored, but I do not believe it's possible here.
Yeah, no kidding. It's obvious that they're trying to patch Sacred Weapon instead of just removing it, but radically altering how weapons work in the game has the potential to be even more damaging in the long run.
Mabtik, while I can't really claim to be impartial on the topic, I think that was well thought out and very well-written.
How would you feel about an ability that makes it easier for the Warpriest to qualify for combat feats? I'm thinking something like the monk flurry system but in reverse:
Student of War: For the purposes of qualifying for Combat Feats, the Warpriest's base attack bonus from his Warpriest class level is equal to his Warpriest level. For all other purposes, such as earning extra attacks or qualifying for a prestige class, the Warpriest uses his normal base attack bonus.
...Just read that out loud to make sure it made sense and turns out Warpriest is a bit of a tonguetwister!
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I think it might be more helpful if we approached the class from the standpoint that the warpriest is a specialized combatant specifically designed/trained to use the deity's favored weapon in combat, rather than thinking of it as a generic "fighter for a god" who is being "forced" to use that favored weapon.
I'm suggesting this because it seems unlikely that the dev team is going to set aside their basic concept for the class, so we might as well try to make the best version of that concept out there.
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Wich make no sense. Desna godess of liberty totally punish her follower for use the weapon they want.Because the god do not waht his warpriest to suck for no reason.Which is why the God wants them to use the weapon they give all the bonuses to...Your a bit off here Nicos, you don't get punished for not wielding the favored weapon, you get rewarded for doing so.
I just want to make something clear because I've seen this line of thought brought up over and over by multiple people. You aren't actually saying something different than what he is, you're just arguing semantics.
If Person A gets 5 extra points, and Person B gets 0 extra points, the difference between the two of them is the exact same as Person A getting 0 extra points, and Person B losing 5 points. In this case, punishment and reward are the exact same thing. Changing what we call the relationship doesn't change the arbitrariily unequal nature of it.
I think it might be more helpful if we approached the class from the standpoint that the warpriest is a specialized combatant specifically designed/trained to use the deity's favored weapon in combat, rather than thinking of it as a generic "fighter for a god" who is being "forced" to use that favored weapon.
I'm suggesting this because it seems unlikely that the dev team is going to set aside their basic concept for the class, so we might as well try to make the best version of that concept out there.
I think that would make for a fantastic archetype for the Warpriest; something akin to the Fighter Weaponmaster, the Staff Magus, or the Divine Defender or Holy Gun Paladins. I honestly think the concept might be too narrow for a baseline class.
While you might be right in that the favored weapon is hardcoded into the core of the class, it might also not be quite that locked in yet. Since there are a significant amount of people who have (and continue to) express concerns with this development, we might be able to shift that focus a little, or at the very least make sure our concerns are noted and hopefully adjusted or compensated for. Worth a shot, right? :)
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Wich make no sense. Desna godess of liberty totally punish her follower for use the weapon they want.Because the god do not waht his warpriest to suck for no reason.Which is why the God wants them to use the weapon they give all the bonuses to...Your a bit off here Nicos, you don't get punished for not wielding the favored weapon, you get rewarded for doing so.
I just want to make something clear because I've seen this line of thought brought up over and over by multiple people. You aren't actually saying something different than what he is, you're just arguing semantics.
If Person A gets 5 extra points, and Person B gets 0 extra points, the difference between the two of them is the exact same as Person A getting 0 extra points, and Person B losing 5 points. In this case, punishment and reward are the exact same thing. Changing what we call the relationship doesn't change the arbitrariily unequal nature of it.
QFT
other than two spells and weapon proficiency for clerics is there anything that uses the favored weapons of deity's outside of Warpriest? if not then there are so many people that want to keep deity's favored weapons as pointless as rogues.
Crusader's Flurry and Guided Hand spring to mind.
Edit: On second read that came across as a bit flippant, sorry about that. I won't deny favored weapons are underdeveloped at the moment and could benefit from some attention and crunch time - I just hope the results take form through feats, spells, archetypes etc instead of tying up a whole base class.
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If Person A gets 5 extra points, and Person B gets 0 extra points, the difference between the two of them is the exact same as Person A getting 0 extra points, and Person B losing 5 points. In this case, punishment and reward are the exact same thing. Changing what we call the relationship doesn't change the arbitrariily unequal nature of it.
So any class that isn't full BAB is punished...
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Alright, I’ve taken the time to read through seven pages of ideas and concepts on how to make this work. In my opinion, it can’t. There are too many ‘divine bruisers’ already. Paladin, Inquisitor, Cleric (with a proper build and spell selection) already make this nice too cramped. Instead, I think we need to look at more of a divine assassin/spy
I think that we should consider making this something new.
So here are my thoughts:
Name: Rename it as Warpriest just isn’t going to cut it.
Saves: Good Ref, Good Will, Poor Fort
BAB: Leave it as ¾ BAB
Spell Progression: 4th or 6th
Skill Points: 4/6 + Int
Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (Local), Linguistics, Perception, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Spellcraft, Stealth, Swim, Use Magic Device
Proficiencies: Light and Medium Armor, Light Shields, Simple and Martial Weapon Proficiency + Deity’s Favored Weapon.
Sacred Weapon and Armor – I think they don’t last long enough as they’re currently written. I think a minute per application and level + 3 + Cha mod minutes per day. I also think that they should be able to change the abilities of their weapon/armor by taking a full round action to change the abilities. Also I think that limiting it to a single weapon is a bit harsh. I would be inclined to say he’s limited to his Deity’s favored weapon at first level but at every five levels can add a weapon to that list and once chosen cannot be changed. For PFS this would mean that a character will have two extra weapons of the character’s choosing by the time the character retires (one at 5th and one at 10th).
Feats: As far as the feats go, I’d repeat what Paizo did for the Ranger. Give them a list of feats they can choose from at a given level then add to it at keystone levels. This way it limits what feats can be chosen. But I’d keep them more or less agility based feats with some metamagic thrown in for good measure.
Spellcasting: I think that WoTC showed the best way to handle this with the 3.5 Warmage. Just give a dedicated spell list. You knew the whole thing and didn’t have to study or memorize. I’d personally arrange the spell list so that you have a smattering of utility spells, buffs, healing spells, and single target damage spells. Or give them the ability to memorize a smaller number of spells per level but let them cast more times per day.
Not a full fix by any means but just my two cents for what it may or may not be worth.
Crusader's Flurry and Guided Hand spring to mind.
ahh didn't know those, but i never really see/hear of anyone building those (maybe playing with the wrong people :P)
it seems to me that until the Warpriest favored weapons where mostly a mute point but once again maybe its just the crowd i play with. but thats one of the reason im for using the Deity's favored weapon in warpriest
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Ciretose, I'm going to put this as succinctly as I can: One word on one line of a chart does not equate to flavor in any meaningful sense of the word. Saying that Shelyn favors the glaive tells me nothing about how to roleplay one of her followers, and in fact is likely to give the completely wrong idea taken in isolation. You keep harping on and on about flavor in relation to something that in the vast majority of cases is arbitrary; if you want to enforce flavor on the warpriest, devise deity-specific codes of behavior, religious dogma, the ideals of the deity, in short things that actually have some form of substance that informs how one would/should roleplay the character. Favored weapon doesn't do that in any meaningful way.Do you mean like what they have in the faiths books?
Or the history and descriptions readily available on the Wiki? (and other sources)
They have core values for most, if not all the gods online and in a number of source books.
Dogma, Tenets, History, Why she uses the Glaive, how her followers are expect to behave... It's all there, what more do you want?
I didn't say it wasn't there. I said locking the warpriest into using a single weapon doesn't promote the concept. I am fully aware of exactly why Shelyn's favored weapon is a glaive (which you'd know if you tracked the conversation that led to that post; Ciretose had been waxing rhapsodic about what a great story Shelyn has and how that means her warpriests should only get blessings for glaives, which is why I posted what I did), thank you very much, but the mechanic of Sacred Weapon doesn't tell that story; it's just a pointless mechanical limitation. The fact that Shelyn's backstory actually exists is entirely beside the point. I think it's a problem that we're all hung up on the favored weapon when the class as written doesn't even require the warpriest to follow the deity's teachings under threat of losing class features; despite Focus Weapon and Sacred Weapon being how they are, the warpriest is considerably less limited roleplay-wise by deity/philosophy choice than the cleric!
@Tizkit
No worries, they are a bit specialized - they don't come up often in normal play but they do open up some very interesting character concepts.
Guided Hand can be used to make some fairly interesting wisdom-focused combat builds (like the aged sensei who casually deflects and counters attacks and strikes his opponents with casual precision instead of relying on brute strength or quick footwork), and Crusader's Flurry is one of the ways to build a monk who flurries with weapons that they don't typically qualify to flurry with - for instance a monk that wields a Naginata.
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I didn't say it wasn't there. I said locking the warpriest into using a single weapon doesn't promote the concept. I am fully aware of exactly why Shelyn's favored weapon is a glaive (which you'd know if you tracked the conversation that led to that post; Ciretose had been waxing rhapsodic about what a great story Shelyn has and how that means her warpriests should only get blessings for glaives, which is why I posted what I did), thank you very much, but the mechanic of Sacred Weapon doesn't tell that story; it's just a pointless mechanical limitation. The fact that Shelyn's backstory actually exists is entirely beside the point. I think it's a problem that we're all hung up on the favored weapon when the class as written doesn't even require the warpriest to follow the deity's teachings under threat of losing class...Ciretose, I'm going to put this as succinctly as I can: One word on one line of a chart does not equate to flavor in any meaningful sense of the word. Saying that Shelyn favors the glaive tells me nothing about how to roleplay one of her followers, and in fact is likely to give the completely wrong idea taken in isolation. You keep harping on and on about flavor in relation to something that in the vast majority of cases is arbitrary; if you want to enforce flavor on the warpriest, devise deity-specific codes of behavior, religious dogma, the ideals of the deity, in short things that actually have some form of substance that informs how one would/should roleplay the character. Favored weapon doesn't do that in any meaningful way.Do you mean like what they have in the faiths books?
Or the history and descriptions readily available on the Wiki? (and other sources)
They have core values for most, if not all the gods online and in a number of source books.
Dogma, Tenets, History, Why she uses the Glaive, how her followers are expect to behave... It's all there, what more do you want?
I'm a Lawful Evil Warpriest of Iomedae who takes slaves and sacrifices children in her name. I retain full combat ability while using her Longsword.
I'm a Lawful Good Warpriest of Iomedae who is a paragon of all that is good and saves children from a burning orphanage then helps rebuild said Orphanage. I lose my Sacred Weapon class feature if for any reason I'm unable to use my longsword like being underwater or inside the belly of a dragon. So does the other guy, but jeez Good really can't get a break.
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Final conclusions from the little cleric-warpriest comparison above:
Cleric-Warpriest Comparison
If you were to ask me if I would rather have a cleric or Warpriest in the party, I would most definitely say Cleric, but this is true for most classes: I've already stated that I don't think the Warpriest can fill the roll of primary tank/martial as it currently stands, mostly because of action economy problems. They both fill the role of secondary melee adequately, with the cleric getting better buffs and more spells to help outside of combat.
More importantly though, is how starkly similar the two classes are. I won't linger on this. Just do look at the two characters I made, and then count on your hands the difference in the features of the two classes.
The Warpriest doesn't take advantage of it's differences
Martial Weapon proficiency is currently mostly meaningless right now. It's basically just a way for a Warpriest to use a composite longbow instead of a light crossbow. You can't apply Focus weapon to martial weapons, and you'll already have your deity's favored weapon. You can get all your different types of damage in the simple-weapon section with a dagger and club. This hopefully won't be as much of an issue when the revisions to favored weapon come out, but as it stands this is a wasted class feature.
Lack of ability score synergy
This class has the exact same stat array requirements and rewards of the cleric. Wisdom for spells, charisma for channel energy, dex or strength to hit, etc. The other two divine gishes, Paladin and Inquisitor, had similar requirements, and though they required fewer stats, they still had those stats apply to more of what they did. The Inquisitor had her bonus to wisdom apply to more areas than skill checks and spells, and the Paladin had her Charisma apply to most everything they did as a class. If the Warpriest is going to be this MAD, there should be a greater synergy of ability scores bonuses across the class. Wisdom to ranged attack rolls? Wisdom to Channel Energy? Strength to Cha skill checks? Something to make their job easier.
This class needs a unique spell list, badly
This class can not stand to go without a unique spell list. If there is one real reason the Cleric would be better in combat at level 7, it's going to be because the Cleric has earlier access to spells like Divine Power and Air Walk. I shouldn't have to explain why the Cleric being able to use those is going to make the Warpriest feel small in the pants during combat. The Warpriest could be getting spells that the Cleric doesn't even get access to like Cat's Grace, Haste, and other combat buffs, while perhaps surrendering some of the Cleric's traditional utility spells like Find Traps or Command.
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Final conclusions from the little cleric-warpriest comparison above:
Cleric-Warpriest Comparison
If you were to ask me if I would rather have a cleric or Warpriest in the party, I would most definitely say Cleric, but this is true for most classes: I've already stated that I don't think the Warpriest can fill the roll of primary tank/martial as it currently stands, mostly because of action economy problems. They both fill the role of secondary melee adequately, with the cleric getting better buffs and more spells to help outside of combat.More importantly though, is how starkly similar the two classes are. I won't linger on this. Just do look at the two characters I made, and then count on your hands the difference in the features of the two classes.
The Warpriest doesn't take advantage of it's differences
Martial Weapon proficiency is currently mostly meaningless right now. It's basically just a way for a Warpriest to use a composite longbow instead of a light crossbow. You can't apply Focus weapon to martial weapons, and you'll already have your deity's favored weapon. You can get all your different types of damage in the simple-weapon section with a dagger and club. This hopefully won't be as much of an issue when the revisions to favored weapon come out, but as it stands this is a wasted class feature.Lack of ability score synergy
This class has the exact same stat array requirements and rewards of the cleric. Wisdom for spells, charisma for channel energy, dex or strength to hit, etc. The other two divine gishes, Paladin and Inquisitor, had similar requirements, and though they required fewer stats, they still had those stats apply to more of what they did. The Inquisitor had her bonus to wisdom apply to more areas than skill checks and spells, and the Paladin had her Charisma apply to most everything they did as a class. If the Warpriest is going to be this MAD, there should be a greater synergy of ability scores bonuses across the class. Wisdom to ranged attack...
Solid Analysis. However I'm actually against a unique spell list. I think we could make due with the 6/9 cleric casting if we just got some early entry spells from Blessings that were really good and a "Blessing" bonus spell slot to put it in.
I'm a Lawful Evil Warpriest of Iomedae who takes slaves and sacrifices children in her name. I retain full combat ability while using her Longsword.If you are going to ignore that you can't be a follower Iomedae as a LE character, then just ignore the other rules you don't like.
Then you can have your cake and eat it to.
Really? Because the Warpriest has no limitations on his alignment in comparison to a deity.
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I'm a Lawful Evil Warpriest of Iomedae who takes slaves and sacrifices children in her name. I retain full combat ability while using her Longsword.If you are going to ignore that you can't be a follower Iomedae as a LE character, then just ignore the other rules you don't like.
Then you can have your cake and eat it to.
Really? Because the Warpriest has no limitations on his alignment in comparison to a deity.
And I'm sure that won't be addressed in the final roll out...
"Blessings (Su): A warpriest’s deity inf luences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him."
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And in case they hadn't thought to address that, Scavion caught it and pointed it out in the class feedback thread - which is exactly the kind of feedback I would assume they're looking for.
Let's try to keep this positive and limit the sarcasm, shall we?
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To reduce MAD, Perhaps making this a charisma-based 6/9ths prepared caster would work. I mean, Paladin and Bloodrager are the only 2 current prepared casters based off of charisma, and they have only 4/9ths spell list.
I would support a unique spell list getting them self buff spells at lower spell levels, but sacrificing some utility spells and giving them party buff spells at higher levels. It would make them less of a tank/buff character (that the cleric does better).
Martial Weapon Proficiency does seem rather redundant on the class. It just improved how ridiculously front-loaded the class is. I think the 1st level bonus feat should be moved to second level, martial weapon proficiency should be given up or gained at higher levels, and that would make the class less front-loaded and closer to equal to a fighter dip (+1 BAB and a feat AND proficient in everything non-exotic from a fighter, or weapon focus and a few spells that require wisdom to cast and might be hard to use for more than one good buff for warpriest.)