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So which one did you mean?2, right under the quote. Its something that's from the past and here today. The game was backwards compatible with 3.5 and part of that is domains and favored weapon I'd assume. Whether I like them or not has little to do with them being legacy.
Yes, but when you refer to it as a "legacy thing" are you trying to say about it?
You included the term for a reason. What reason was it? I think you were implying it wasn't important. Am I wrong?
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Just like Warpriests only get bonus with favored weapons :)The Magus can't use anything that isn't one handed.Wrong. They are proficient in all Martial weapons. They just get a bonus when using one handed weapons :)
Exactly. The only thing that can make either class hope to compete in the damage game (which is the main reason you enter melee, to do damage) is only usable with a specific, restricted list of weapons. Only difference is if a magus picks up a warhammer, he is just as good as if he picks up a battleaxe (cookie-cutter builds aside, which only have one weapon), or at least he has access to his class's main class feature, while a warpriest can only use 1 weapon, which is a simple weapon or whatever their god decides they like.
I like Cayden, but all the drinking...But they didn't say "HOW DARE THE GOD FAVOR A WEAPON I DON'T LIKE!". In fact, many people want the restrictions made less to make it easier to be the person they want to be and follow the god they want to follow. There isn't an animosity towards the god so much as a genuine interest.What I'm hearing "HOW DARE THE GOD FAVOR A WEAPON THAT I DON'T LIKE!"And that's not what people are saying at all.They are saying that any weapon I pick should be able to be favored by the god enough to get the bonuses without me having to do anything else, because that is what I want it to be.
Many of them very angrily, with exclamation points.
Which isn't a fair comparison. Drinking and Freedom and pleasures are Cayden's business and tenets. You try to be a tyrant or stop people from drinking your probably not a cleric of Cayden or there's some crazy circumstances going on.
Using a Rapier though isn't one of his big tenets and what he's all over and about.
So which one did you mean?2, right under the quote. Its something that's from the past and here today. The game was backwards compatible with 3.5 and part of that is domains and favored weapon I'd assume. Whether I like them or not has little to do with them being legacy.Yes, but when you refer to it as a "legacy thing" are you trying to say about it?
You included the term for a reason. What reason was it? I think you were implying it wasn't important. Am I wrong?
I just told you which definition I meant. I didn't say whether it was important or whether I liked it or anything like that. When I use the word legacy, I meant it was something passed down from a previous generation. No extra subtext or anything. Your wrong in that you think I'm stating whether its important or not when I use the word legacy.
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Using a Rapier though isn't one of his big tenets and what he's all over and about.
It is his favored weapon and what his follower are trained to use.
All I am saying is if you aren't going to bother using the weapon your God says is the weapon they want you to use, why should get a bonus without at least investing a feat in another weapon that isn't the one your god selected?
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I just told you which definition I meant. I didn't say whether it was important or whether I liked it or anything like that. When I use the word legacy, I meant it was something passed down from a previous generation. No extra subtext or anything. Your wrong in that you think I'm stating whether its important or not when I use the word legacy.
Than what were you stating about it? You used the word, you tell me why you included it. What were you implying about it that you felt you had to describe it as legacy? Why was it something you decided was relevant to the discussion?
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Exactly. The only thing that can make either class hope to compete in the damage game (which is the main reason you enter melee, to do damage) is only usable with a specific, restricted list of weapons. Only difference is if a magus picks up a warhammer, he is just as good as if he picks up a battleaxe (cookie-cutter builds aside, which only have one weapon), or at least he has access to his class's main class feature, while a warpriest can only use 1 weapon, which is a simple weapon or whatever their god decides they like.Just like Warpriests only get bonus with favored weapons :)The Magus can't use anything that isn't one handed.Wrong. They are proficient in all Martial weapons. They just get a bonus when using one handed weapons :)
Not really. The Magus is going to have one weapon they take weapon focus, specialization, etc with. They aren't as good with other weapons, since they don't get bonuses with them.
They really can't use most weapons effectively at all, as if it isn't a one handed melee...nope.
The Warpriest can use any martial weapon, and they can self buff to use that weapon with bonuses. Same as a magus self buffing with their spells and another weapon.
They just can't make any weapon they use be the sacred weapon.
And the Magus and fighter need to spend a few feats to get weapon specialization, etc...on a weapon. And those bonuses don't apply to other weapons.
See my point?
Wizards don't have a penalty when they lose their spellbooks, they just have a bonus when they can access them.Wizards not being able to use armor without spell penalty is an arbitrary rule that constrains people for no reason.
Two can play at that game. Where is my logical fallacy chart...
Independently of everything else, what you said is true. There are plenty of RPGs wherein wizards can and do wear armor. However, with regard to Pathfinder, it was not done for arbitrary reasons. Whether you agree or disagree with the reasons, wizards are barred from armor to promote a certain expectation for the class.
On the other hand, under the current scheme, warpriests are focused on a weapon selected for a different class for largely different purposes. That is the definition of arbitrary.
It's simply not the case that some wizards use armor and some don't, based on their deity or their birth sign or whatever. That would be purely arbitrary, not to mention, unfair.
Further, favored weapons are a minor and in some cases essentially optional part of the cleric class. Making warpriest reliant on the favored weapon brings up all sorts of issues that are simply not present for the cleric. For instance, if you played fighter 1/cleric X, essentially all clerics are identical for purposes of weapon wielding. Certain choices provide a marginally less powerful spiritual weapon, due to having an unexceptional crit.
I am not interested in a game of logical fallacies. Just a real conversation about what would actually be fun to to play.
All I am saying is if you aren't going to bother using the weapon your God says is the weapon they want you to use, why should get a bonus without at least investing a feat in another weapon that isn't the one your god selected?
There's a false premise here. My god doesn't demand I use a particular weapon. Why would the gods of freedom and liberation care what I used or try to restrict me to use a particular weapon for instance? They should want me to do what I want. I'll use their weapon maybe, but for many reasons I may have my own choices to make in life. Most(if any) gods don't have a tenet saying "use this weapon or else!".
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Hey...
HEY!!!!
There was a blog post... the Dev team said that they are going to work on making sure that favored weapons do not suck!
They are going to address the disparity between different favored weapons. It all going to be okay.
Why don't we all just wait until the warpriest revision comes out to see what they do with this? They are already aware of the issue.
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Hey...
HEY!!!!
There was a blog post... the Dev team said that they are going to work on making sure that favored weapons do not suck!
They are going to address the disparity between different favored weapons. It all going to be okay.Why don't we all just wait until the warpriest revision comes out to see what they do with this? They are already aware of the issue.
Dude, what else are we going to do today? Talk to our family?
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Warpriests are focused on a weapon that is the favored weapon of the deity to fit the flavor of the setting. If I see a guy with a starknife and a butterfly crest, I can guess who and what he is.
Clerics can't use anything but simple weapons and the weapon of the deity.
Inquisitors get crossbows, bows and the weapon of the deity they picked.
I suppose you could remove the martial weapon proficiency...
Choice of a deity is a choice. Favored weapons are minor to you, but they are considered enough of a flavor of the setting and the game that they are included in every article and integrated into the game as special access weapons.
I think it will be great fun to see the warriors of gods using chosen weapons of the gods they worship being badass. I want to move the conversation to how to make the "lesser" weapons more badass.
But we seem stuck in this rut.
Dude, what else are we going to do today? Talk to our family?Hey...
HEY!!!!
There was a blog post... the Dev team said that they are going to work on making sure that favored weapons do not suck!
They are going to address the disparity between different favored weapons. It all going to be okay.Why don't we all just wait until the warpriest revision comes out to see what they do with this? They are already aware of the issue.
I could give you a lot of stories! Turkey day and all that. They might not appreciate that though.
I will say that I wish I had more pie however. Only eat it twice a year, and I didn't get nearly as much as I wanted.
A god of war making their followers rely almost exclusively on one weapon, instead of using all weapons.
A god of "tyranny" making their warpriests trying to tyrannize with a weapon intended mainly as a weapon of torture.
A god of strength not rewarding followers who use a wooden club that is too large, or insufficiently large.
A god of might, who does not bless his followers that want to use a shield with a weapon.
A god of peace or knowledge, making warpriests use a weapon they selected for their clerics because it's not a weapon of war.
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All I am saying is if you aren't going to bother using the weapon your God says is the weapon they want you to use, why should get a bonus without at least investing a feat in another weapon that isn't the one your god selected?There's a false premise here. My god doesn't demand I use a particular weapon.
Notice how what you wrote is not what I wrote.
Your god favors a weapon. They want you to use that weapon. Why should you get a bonus for not using the weapon they favor?
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Dude, what else are we going to do today? Talk to our family?Hey...
HEY!!!!
There was a blog post... the Dev team said that they are going to work on making sure that favored weapons do not suck!
They are going to address the disparity between different favored weapons. It all going to be okay.Why don't we all just wait until the warpriest revision comes out to see what they do with this? They are already aware of the issue.
I could give you a lot of stories! Turkey day and all that. They might not appreciate that though.
I will say that I wish I had more pie however. Only eat it twice a year, and I didn't get nearly as much as I wanted.
Be the change you wish to see. Make a pie.
Be the change you wish to see. Make a pie.Dude, what else are we going to do today? Talk to our family?Hey...
HEY!!!!
There was a blog post... the Dev team said that they are going to work on making sure that favored weapons do not suck!
They are going to address the disparity between different favored weapons. It all going to be okay.Why don't we all just wait until the warpriest revision comes out to see what they do with this? They are already aware of the issue.
I could give you a lot of stories! Turkey day and all that. They might not appreciate that though.
I will say that I wish I had more pie however. Only eat it twice a year, and I didn't get nearly as much as I wanted.
We all have our own rituals. Mine is that I don't make or purchase pie or cake or potatoe chips and the like.
Besides, if that makes any change its probably to my waistline...
Your god favors a weapon. They want you to use that weapon. Why should you get a bonus for not using the weapon they favor?
Why should clerics, inquisitors, or paladins get their class features without using the favored weapon? They need them to function and thrive! Are you looking for a flavor or mechanical? Flavor wise the god may not care so deeply about the weapon itself but the follower and what they do, meta wise you want the class to function and thrive and to encompass a variety of concepts.
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The average level 8 Warpriest who gets forced into ranged combat has a +7 to hit. This is especially true for anyone without a deity that favors a ranged weapon. This problem WILL come up even with the change because I highly doubt the devs are going to let you shoot your Favored Weapon at folks. And the result will likely be worse. And it gets worse. What happens if your favored weapon is a 2hander and you get grappled? What happens if you get swallowed hole and its not a light slashing or piercing weapon? Then we add DR into the mix and our Warpriest just dies in the belly of the beast. There are myriads of ways to destroy your weapon or disarm you. Unless they implement a Soulknife esque feature where any weapon thats your deity's favored weapon gets the enhancement in your hands, you're going to lose all ability to fight meaningfully in a fight eventually.
He needs a 17 or better to hit a CR 8 Black Dragon. Thats a 15% chance to hit. If he spends a round buffing that puts him at 25% chance.
Its fairly common to need to fight ranged enemies. If we can't contribute to a combat based on a line of text that is fairly close or is never justified, then tying a Class Feature to that text is very foolish. And if your character can't contribute to combat, which makes up atleast 50% of the game, then your place in the party is very suspect.
I find it hard to believe that a deity will refuse to aid her soldier for not wielding their favored weapon when in a situation where they can't. Or when its completely inane to. Like being underwater with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon.
Of course, this is all because I hate flavor and roleplaying and fun. /sarcasm
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Your god favors a weapon. They want you to use that weapon. Why should you get a bonus for not using the weapon they favor?They certinly do not wan it, most of cases they do not care. How many of the god do enforce the use of the weapon?
All of them.
It is why the only non-simple weapon a cleric knows is the favored weapon of the deity.
And you both can keep switching words from "favor" and "bonus" to "demand" and "punish" all you like, but that doesn't make it so...
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I find it hard to believe that a deity will refuse to aid her soldier for not wielding their favored weapon when in a situation where they can't. Or when its completely inane to. Like being underwater with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon.
Which is why each and every cleric should get a weapon bonus all the time.
Hell, combats should just be decided on who prayed harder, since the god would never refuse to aid anyone...
I find it hard to believe that a deity will refuse to aid her soldier for not wielding their favored weapon when in a situation where they can't. Or when its completely inane to. Like being underwater with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon.
Which is why each and every cleric should get a weapon bonus all the time.
Hell, combats should just be decided on who prayed harder, since the god would never refuse to aid anyone...
Ugh. I knew you were going to quote the least important passage of my message and simply just refute that. Nice.
All I want is my Warpriest to live past 6th level. When the first flying and swallowing enemies come around I don't see that happening.
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That is a pretty bleak outlook that a Warpriest will only have a +7 to hit.
I mean divine favor at level 8 will be +2, and we know they are working on buffing. (fingers crossed for swift casts)
BAB at level 8 is +6.
Assuming they have a +1 dex, which really isn't asking much here, particularly since channel energy is going bye bye.
If they are fighting a CR 8 black dragon, they get 2 attacks with a bow to try to hit AC 24. With divine favor up and a masterwork bow (which they really should have by level 8) they have a +10 to hit (+6 bab, +1 dex, +2 divine favor, +1 MW bow)
So they have a hit chance of 35% chance to hit on the first attack and 10% on the second.
Not great, I will agree.
But what exactly is a fighter doing differently here?
The fighter has BAB +8, likely the same +1 dex if he is melee. The fighter doesn't have a second weapon training group, and won't have any ranged feats if that is just a backup weapon.
So the fighter ALSO has only a +10 to hit.
I just don't see the problem here.
That is a pretty bleak outlook that a Warpriest will only have a +7 to hit.
I mean divine favor at level 8 will be +2, and we know they are working on buffing. (fingers crossed for swift casts)
BAB at level 8 is +6.
Assuming they have a +1 dex, which really isn't asking much here, particularly since channel energy is going bye bye.
If they are fighting a CR 8 black dragon, they get 2 attacks with a bow to try to hit AC 24. With divine favor up and a masterwork bow (which they really should have by level 8) they have a +10 to hit (+6 bab, +1 dex, +2 divine favor, +1 MW bow)
So they have a hit chance of 35% chance to hit on the first attack and 10% on the second.
Not great, I will agree.
But what exactly is a fighter doing differently here?
The fighter has BAB +8, likely the same +1 dex if he is melee. The fighter doesn't have a second weapon training group, and won't have any ranged feats if that is just a backup weapon.So the fighter ALSO has only a +10 to hit.
I just don't see the problem here.
The Fighter has more room for Dex, has a base +8 to hit and with his many more feats can easily afford to drop a Weapon Focus in Longbow.
So hes looking at a +11 or better since he can allocate his stats easier. And if hes really smart, he Weapon Trains in his Sidearm first to offset the penalties while still focusing in his weapon of choice. Thats what being a good diverse fighter is all about.
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The Fighter has more room for Dex, has a base +8 to hit and with his many more feats can easily afford to drop a Weapon Focus in Longbow.So hes looking at a +11 or better since he can allocate his stats easier. And if hes really smart, he Weapon Trains in his Sidearm first to offset the penalties while still focusing in his weapon of choice. Thats what being a good diverse fighter is all about.
And no spells. You have three levels of spells.
And no spells. You have three levels of spells.
The Fighter has more room for Dex, has a base +8 to hit and with his many more feats can easily afford to drop a Weapon Focus in Longbow.So hes looking at a +11 or better since he can allocate his stats easier. And if hes really smart, he Weapon Trains in his Sidearm first to offset the penalties while still focusing in his weapon of choice. Thats what being a good diverse fighter is all about.
Of which the moment you use, you become just barely under the Fighter. In which case your spells would have been better off buffing your allies. And I was considering spells in that equation. With Divine Favor, the most obvious buff spell, it only puts him just under the Fighter.
And you wasted a turn casting it.
And the Fighter could have consumables.
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Warpriest
Finally we get to the warpriest. We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game.
Bolded for emphasis. Can we please stop the thread crapping and move on to more productive things?
Bolded for emphasis. Can we please stop the thread crapping and move on to more productive things?Warpriest
Finally we get to the warpriest. We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game.
I don't see how pointing out the obvious flaw of "What if I'm not able to use my Favored Weapon" is thread crapping. Depending on the weapon, its going to be a problem in some situation. Some more obvious than others (Melee vs. Ranged) with others less obvious (Non-light weapons when you've been swallowed whole)
And if we say it enough, mayhaps they'll build it in before we have to deal with it.
Bolded for emphasis. Can we please stop the thread crapping and move on to more productive things?Warpriest
Finally we get to the warpriest. We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game.
Well, the most productive thing I can think of would be to convince the devs that this favored weapon concept does not need to be overdone. I don't think the issue can be adequately addressed by buffing some of the odder weapon choices. Firstly, it's not clear to me how you would go about that, without making some kind of elaborate flowchart that shows how to buff up the different weapons. Second, you either lack a credible melee attack, you lack a credible ranged attack, or you are using a dagger and are lacking both. Even if this could be adequately addressed with game mechanics, flavorwise I think it's just a big mess.
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Ummm, yeah but your example for how that shakes out was basically to show that a fighter has a +1 or +2 better chance to hit with a secondary weapon than a warpriest. I mean... yeah? Its a fighter. You know, the fighter? Master of all weapons? Full fledged martial?
I mean, if at any point the argument about warpriest boils down to "its not as good as a fighter when making a weapon attack" all I can do is say... GOOD! It shouldn't be! The fighter doesn't get to cast 6 levels of spells!
You want a comparison, at least use a bard or the new Hunter class.
Frankly the best comparison you could have used in this particular case is to say that the Warpriest (when using a non-favored secondary weapon that he has invested nothing into) is no better than a Cleric with the same stats.
And that is a problem, and they have already committed to working on it. The Warpriest, right now, is just awful. SO, honestly, ANY comparison right now is going to show very little useful information.
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I don't see how pointing out the obvious flaw of "What if I'm not able to use my Favored Weapon" is thread crapping. Depending on the weapon, its going to be a problem in some situation. Some more obvious than others (Melee vs. Ranged) with others less obvious (Non-light weapons when you've been swallowed whole)
And if we say it enough, mayhaps they'll build it in before we have to deal with it.
My apologies for being unclear. The contributions along the vein of what you and RJGrady were suggesting are not the target of my desire to avoid thread crapping. I was being a bit too general in my approach, but nonetheless, the developers are addressing the issue at hand. It is my strong suspicion that until we see how they address the issue, it is more productive to discuss other points of the class and wait to see how it works out as of the first revision.
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A view on the action economy:
The Cleric has a perfectly fine action economy because they have 9 spell levels and don't need to enter melee. The melee cleric often can simply choose a reach weapon and rely on AoO's while using standard actions to buff. But the Warpriest has to worship a reach-favoring god to do so, and has less spells. So they need some way to cast those spells in combat and get attacks in so they don't accidentally spend a ton of resources buffing and then waste them because the enemy dies. So, swift action spells would seem appropriate. I would propose something similar to the healing blessing applying to buff spells.
Alternatively, they could have some form of buff akin to the Inquisitor's solution to action economy, judgment and bane. Some swift action smite mechanic that allows them to be much better. Sacred Weapon does something similar to some judgements, giving you effectively a full BAB, but then adds damage as well. However, this is less than the inquisitor who can judge and bane to get even more offense. I would offer something that would fit flavor more than bane would, such as an ability to gain attack and damage bonuses for each attack that misses you in the previous round (a user-activated ability probably).
I compared Warpriest action economy to cleric/inquistor economy because they are the closest comparisons I could think of.
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There are clerics who don't exclusively use the weapon favored by their deities. There are tons of paladins who do the same thing. Are you seriously arguing that using weapons other than the favored weapon listed on Chart 3-6 where appropriate amounts to fall-worthy heresy?
1. If you don't follow the tenets of your faith enough to use the weapon favored by the deity...And I bolded your words to allow you to respond to point 2.
Why you put it italics. I must have said it...
No...wait. No I didn't. I didn't say that at all.
Man, if you read what people said I was saying...if only someone in the thread felt strongly putting words into peoples mouths was wrong and consistently comments on it in an evenhanded way....
But anyway...
Oh, come off it. Italics are not quotes and you know it; I asked if you were arguing it, not accusing you of doing so. Stating that you are violating the tenets of the faith by not using the weapon and then leaving off consequences with an ellipsis strongly implies that they're dire, and there's this thing that happens to clerics who violate their deity's tenets that fits that bill fairly well, so you really shouldn't wonder what would leave that impression.
What I said and am saying is that if you are picking a deity, and one of the tenets of the faith is that the deity has a weapon that they favor, a weapon all priests of the faith learn how to use, and you decide not to use that weapon, that tells me following the teachings of that deity isn't the most important part of your character concept to you.
Which is fine.
But why should you get a non-favored weapon without giving up a feat?
Particularly given that as a cleric or inquisitor you would have to take a proficiency feat most of time just to be proficient, let alone have it be the "sacred" weapon of the deity.
If you love the flavor of the god, the weapon is part of the flavor.
And Saint Stabalot raised his greatsword up on high, saying, "Bless this, Oh Gorum, thy greatsword, that with it I mayst chop Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy.
And then Gorum did grin, and Saint Stabalot didst chop His enemies to tiny bits. But then his enemies didst sunder his mighty greatsword, to which Saint Stabalot didst reply, "Gorum doth bless all steel in war and I hast armor spikes, so thou mayst bring it. Bless these, oh Gorum, thy armor spikes, that with them I mayst stab thine enemies like Swiss cheese, in Thy mercy."
And then Gorum made reply, saying, "Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, fool? I only bless greatswords. No blessings for you!"
And Saint Stabalot lookethed to the heavens, mightily confused, and spake saying, "Oh Gorum, in the sermon thy high priest did give just last Thursday, it says thou dost reside in all weapons of iron, such as my armor spikes, so why wouldst thou not bless them?"
And Gorum did make reply, "Because reasons. Good luck stabbing mine enemies into Swiss cheese with attack bonuses comparable to those of the slinking sneak-thieves and emasculated minstrels who dare not show their faces on the field. I'm peacin' out."
To which Saint Stabalot said "****," before missing a whole bunch and dying on the end of a spear.
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...I love you, Renegade Paladin. With all of my heart do I love you.
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...I love you, Renegade Paladin. With all of my heart do I love you.
When should I schedule the wedding between the two of you?
I'm sure there's a warpriest around that would be happy to perform the ceremony..
Ummm, yeah but your example for how that shakes out was basically to show that a fighter has a +1 or +2 better chance to hit with a secondary weapon than a warpriest. I mean... yeah? Its a fighter. You know, the fighter? Master of all weapons? Full fledged martial?
I mean, if at any point the argument about warpriest boils down to "its not as good as a fighter when making a weapon attack" all I can do is say... GOOD! It shouldn't be! The fighter doesn't get to cast 6 levels of spells!
You want a comparison, at least use a bard or the new Hunter class.
Frankly the best comparison you could have used in this particular case is to say that the Warpriest (when using a non-favored secondary weapon that he has invested nothing into) is no better than a Cleric with the same stats.And that is a problem, and they have already committed to working on it. The Warpriest, right now, is just awful. SO, honestly, ANY comparison right now is going to show very little useful information.
I could compare it to the Bard or Inquisitor, but those so clearly blow it out of the water I wanted to make THE most favorable comparison for the Warpriest. By using one of the lamer full BAB classes.
A Bard can Heroism himself and Inspire Courage putting himself at a +4 to Attacks and Damage with everything. And he has a better spell list.
A Bard is better than a Warpriest using his Sacred Weapon even.
I'll also point out that a great many of the Deities simply have awful support for their weapon. No Warpriest of Abadar, regardless of the changes made is likely to succeed at mid-high levels. And he'll be completely worthless in melee. I do so dearly wish to be proven wrong in this regard.
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And no spells. You have three levels of spells.
Of which the moment you use, you become just barely under the Fighter. In which case your spells would have been better off buffing your allies. And I was considering spells in that equation. With Divine Favor, the most obvious buff spell, it only puts him just under the Fighter.
And you wasted a turn casting it.
And the Fighter could have consumables.
And you can't have consumables why exactly?
So you buff your allies instead?
What is the issue?
Well, as I have been saying, we have to wait and see what they do.
The class has big holes in it at present. Favored Weapons are obviously NOT even among the Gods, and they spoke to that in the Blog post. I don't know how that is going to shake out yet, but I assume they understand the same problems that have come up in this thread.
On the other hand, if you end up with a really good melee weapon as a favored weapon, then I really don't mind being worse with a bow. Tit for tat right?
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Because gods grant bonuses arbitrarily, right? Thanks for letting me use this twice.
Yeah, they really kind of do. They're called cleric spells, and the caster is under complete control of which ones he gets and when, where, and how they're used. I mean, really, man? That's the best you can come up with?