While true that *Insert Named NPC Here* is introduced early on and his class levels aren't much of a spoiler, it's always good to spoil things anyway, just to maintain the habit if nothing else.
Sometimes little things that seem meaningless to us, might be of major impact on others.
Panache talk-
I'd still prefer cha bonus, no minimum, no feat to get extra. Everyone's building these with 14 cha because it feels like you should. I'd much rather have that actually be true than make it easier to dump.
Panache talk-
I'd still prefer cha bonus, no minimum, no feat to get extra. Everyone's building these with 14 cha because it feels like you should. I'd much rather have that actually be true than make it easier to dump.
Ew. No Feat to get extra? Only having two Panache unless you sink your precious level up bonuses or tons o' gold into it sucks.
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I played a one shot as a 5th level swashbuckler the other night and had a blast. I was hoping to find something more to contribute but it was balanced in with the other characters, was fun to build and run, and I’d play it again. I would petition to remove Fly as one of the skills you use Panache points on and replace with Sleight of Hand or Stealth or something but not Fly.
Also, I don’t know if this is a deliberate side effect or a feature but it was really easy to build because the class was focused enough and you knew what would make him effective so there was no option paralysis – feat selection was basic and fast.
I think it's pretty borked that 12 Cha and 7 Cha are functionally identical here.
While it is true that Cha 12 is easier to enhance to a usable level through spells and items, and Charisma does apply to some fairly useful skills, I think the main problem is that Charisma doesn't work hard enough for the class's features. The issue you cite would be a much lesser concern if Charisma added to... something.
What if panache equals Cha modifier + Dex modifier?
I'm gradually favoring the idea of swashbucklers eventually getting a luck bonus to their saving throws equal to their Charisma bonus (if any). Luck bonuses can be kept reasonably under control, and most swashbucklers are going to load up on Dexterity, not Charisma. It also patches their saves without giving them a surprising progression (I have a hard time picturing a Swashbuckler having a really good base Will, and Fortitude, eh).
Fort saves make sense. Swashbucklers should be able to hold their alcohol... And resist Iocaine powder.
I'm pretty sure the Dread Pirate Roberts as a very high Constitution and some unusual feat choices, and I doubt anyone in that movie is more than level 10, so it's kind of hard to say. Inigo doesn't seem to be able to hold his alcohol, and he actually seems more swashbucklery. Wesley might be a fiendishly optimized rogue/swashbuckler.
Panache talk-
I'd still prefer cha bonus, no minimum, no feat to get extra. Everyone's building these with 14 cha because it feels like you should. I'd much rather have that actually be true than make it easier to dump.
It really should reward the 14 rather than punish the 5.
Mostly I like the flavor of the Swashbuckler.
I would change things around a little bit...
For Weapon and Armor Proficiency, I would include the Whip. (I am picturing Errol Flynn using the whip to swing on a chandelier.)
As stated by others, remove Bravery +x, and add Bravado +x: +x bonus to Will saves.
I would change the parry to not require the spending of a Panache point, but only require the PC to have at least one. Also, the chance to Parry becomes worse as the swashbuckler's AC improves. I would change Parry to:
"Opportune Parry (Ex): At first level, while the swashbuckler has at least one panache point, the swashbuckler may expend the use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack. The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity. If her attack roll is greater than the CMD of the attacking creature, the attack automatically misses. For each size category..."
Add the following deed:
"Whip utility (Ex): At first level, as long as the swashbuckler has at least 1 panache point, and has a whip in hand, the swashbuckler gains a +4 on any Acrobatics, Climb, or Ride check, and any attempt to Disarm or Trip an opponent. This increase stacks with any increase from feats."
Although I would like finesse at first level, it almost makes sense to get it at second level. This would allow the player to get used to Panache and prepare for the finesse feat.
Though, I would change it to: "Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 2nd level a swashbuckler gains the Weapon Finesse feat, except for bludgeoning weapons."
For Bonus Feats, I would include also feats that require Fighter levels. This would allow for inclusion of the Weapon Specialization feat tree to add even more damage.
For like the zillionth time, they already get this.For Bonus Feats, I would include also feats that require Fighter levels. This would allow for inclusion of the Weapon Specialization feat tree to add even more damage.
Yeah, a lot of people seem to have missed that line in the Bonus Feats section...
I'm pretty sure the Dread Pirate Roberts as a very high Constitution and some unusual feat choices, and I doubt anyone in that movie is more than level 10, so it's kind of hard to say. Inigo doesn't seem to be able to hold his alcohol, and he actually seems more swashbucklery. Wesley might be a fiendishly optimized rogue/swashbuckler.
I doubt anyone in that movie is above level 4. 8th~10th level is Hercules-level.
But more to the point... The class must remain viable. Fort and Will become far more important than Reflex by 6th level or so. Having both of them as your weak save will reduce the class ability to survive past 7th level... Much less 11th and beyond, where saves are pretty much your most important defense.
Giving such a crippling weakness to the class doesn't make it flavorful. It makes it horrible.
Besides, both Gunslingers and Fighters have good Fort saves.
Any defensive power can be bypassed. Full plate and heavy shield are both good defensive powers, and they can be bypassed by firearms, touch spells, area of effects... it doesn't invalidate them as good defensive powers.
Improved Evasion is a good defensive power. It can be bypassed by fort/will save spells, archers, melee attacks, but it doesn't invalidate it as a good defensive power.
Just because there are things that Parry doesn't work on doesn't negate it as a good defensive power. There is such a thing as being too narrow in one's definition of 'good defensive power'. I don't know of ANY classical good defensive powers that can't be bypassed by a huge swath of abilities. That doesn't make them bad defensive powers.
I didn't even really mean that I think it's a weak power (although I do), I just meant that I think more specific feedback is more useful than broad generalizations.
I'm pretty sure the Dread Pirate Roberts as a very high Constitution and some unusual feat choices, and I doubt anyone in that movie is more than level 10, so it's kind of hard to say. Inigo doesn't seem to be able to hold his alcohol, and he actually seems more swashbucklery. Wesley might be a fiendishly optimized rogue/swashbuckler.
So, like, a ninja/barbarian or ninja/fighter? =P
But more to the point... The class must remain viable. Fort and Will become far more important than Reflex by 6th level or so. Having both of them as your weak save will reduce the class ability to survive past 7th level... Much less 11th and beyond, where saves are pretty much your most important defense.
I agree that the combination of poor Fort & Will saves is a liability for the class and I'd like it to receive some attention. My suggestion was to award Charisma bonus to saving throws against Alcohol/Poison, Fear, Charm, Compulsion, and Death effects - over the course of levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 in place of Bravery. I also wouldn't mind straight swapping the Fort and Reflex saves, though I can see how Reflex makes thematic sense and therefore I do not expect that change to happen. Others have also suggested letting a Swashbuckler use Charisma in place of Wisdom for their Will save, but I consider that unlikely also.
Giving such a crippling weakness to the class doesn't make it flavorful. It makes it horrible.
Your wording here is unnecessarily harsh and nonconstructive. I'm sure there are better ways to get your point across...
I'm gradually favoring the idea of swashbucklers eventually getting a luck bonus to their saving throws equal to their Charisma bonus (if any). Luck bonuses can be kept reasonably under control, and most swashbucklers are going to load up on Dexterity, not Charisma. It also patches their saves without giving them a surprising progression (I have a hard time picturing a Swashbuckler having a really good base Will, and Fortitude, eh).
Make it luck and Fate's Favored just become an awesome trait for swashbucklers (not too mention it is a lot easier to work into a character background than Indomitable Faith). Probably best to leave it untyped, for the sake of bonus modifiers and stacking.
I'm also OK with waiting several levels for this. I think as high as level 6 would be OK (I think I'd place it at 3 or 4). Still rough in the early going, but other classes have theses same issues. Keeping it in the lvl 4+ range makes it dip proof, as well. I mean, 4 levels seems like a lot more than a dip to me.
Yeah, I never quite understood why a class based on two classes with good fortitude saves would have a lousy one. It seems suicidal.
I didn't even really mean that I think it's a weak power (although I do), I just meant that I think more specific feedback is more useful than broad generalizations.
So, you're entire ranting post basically boils down to "Hey, being vague is bad, say something more specific"? And you don't recognize the irony in that argument? As you are not criticizing any thing specific, you're vaguely saying you didn't like how pointed the comments were? Seriously?
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So, you're entire ranting post basically boils down to "Hey, being vague is bad, say something more specific"? And you don't recognize the irony in that argument? As you are not criticizing any thing specific, you're vaguely saying you didn't like how pointed the comments were? Seriously?
I didn't even really mean that I think it's a weak power (although I do), I just meant that I think more specific feedback is more useful than broad generalizations.
Dude,
For a guy who freaked out when he perceived that his opinion was being blasted or misconstrued in a disrespectful way, perhaps you should consider the way you respond to others. Your frustration made me feel genuinely upset for my role in having helped cause it, but the tone of your posts since then have still been very... let's say stubborn and aggressive. This post in particular is WAAY more vitriolic than anything Tels or I wrote, yet it is OK when you do it?
Take a moment before you hit Submit Post next time for a few breaths and think: how would this make YOU feel.
If you can't take the heat, stop throwing fire.
EDIT: As an addendum, this post of yours was replying to Knifechief toning down his original statement in an almost apologetic manner as response to your, shall we say, passionate post. Yet that is the way you handle the olive branch.
SECOND EDIT: Turns out I can't spell edit...
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@Sevus: I do believe it was mentioned to change the panache to cha modifier not cha bonus, to keep people from dipping their charismas to 7 and still having a point for free. If this class was meant to be agile and charming as the description entails, then dex/cha should be our good stats(cha can be a secondary but still believe it needs to be up there in priority)
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Giving such a crippling weakness to the class doesn't make it flavorful. It makes it horrible.Your wording here is unnecessarily harsh and nonconstructive. I'm sure there are better ways to get your point across...
You're probably right... I'm just very frustrated with the current state of Swashbucklers. It's the class I was looking forward to the most, but it has so many problems. Mainly the fact it's not really any more dexterous or mobile than a Fighter with Weapon Finesse. Cha being a dump stat doesn't help either.
I don't want yet another flavorful class that I'll never use because its mechanics are extremely weak and equally limited. I don't care about having the highest DPR or AC, but I do want my martial class to have good enough damage output and survivability to be a front liner.
Flavor won't matter if the Swashbuckler's class features are so weak that I feel like I'm being punished for playing the class. And right now, I'd be much better off building a Barbarian or Gunslinger and giving him Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance.
I really want Swashbucklers to work, but I'm afraid they won't... Or they'll fall into the same trap as Monks, where you have to build a character completely different from the class' supposed flavor just to make it mediocre.
Right now, the best bet for a Swashbuckler is to be a Str-based combatant with mediocre Dex and very low Charisma who stands still all the time and focuses on DPR and AC instead of mobility, charm, cunning and guile.
Swashbucklers have zero incentive to act like swashbucklers.
I think someone brought it up earlier, but would changing your initial Panache so that you begin with 1 + CHA points each day (minimum 1) make Charisma more attractive? That at least would give you some mechanical benefit to having a 12 Charisma, and means a 14 Charisma Swashbuckler can Riposte once and still have the Panache reserved for Precise Strike.
That is one idea posted, although Whos That is referring to the opinion that I and a few others share that penalizes tanking Charisma.
Other suggestions have been 2xCHA, and one where you gain additional panache at certain levels (I think it was every 4), as well as some level based options (a little too much imho).
The end goal, of course, is to make Charisma a stat worth spending creation resources on, because having a 13 instead of a 5 should be rewarded with more than a few skill bonuses (and that doesn't mean a ton at mid-to-high level in PFRPG).
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Exactly ^^^. Some others have been asking for a 3+cha mod times per day to promote the charisma tanking. or a 1/2 level + cha mod. Personally with how much panache this class CAN use, I would like to see a higher possibility. I.E. you do not have a sword and board "tank" role, but you step up to the plate making a swashbuckler! You will be using quite a bit of panache for parries and possibly ripostes(assuming it doesn't get switched to an immediate action<HOPE IT DOESN'T>)
This means that before 11th level and you can take signature deed you might have the possibility of deflecting or parrying several attacks per round if your ac is not amazing. with combat reflexes at lvl 10 you might have 8 panache per day unless you take extra grit, 10 at most. and that is on a per day basis unless you are critting or killing enemies. a two weapon fighter bandit can take out 1/2 of those panache points easily in a round.
In short, I do think we should have a higher panache incentive, but by rewarding players who chose to go with a higher charisma. Wether or not this penalizes players who dump charisma is another story alltogether.
another example of not a main stat that effects players in a significant way: Paladin charisma<Funny how paladin is allready soo good they didn't touch it in this playtest>
Technically it isn't a main stat, but you gain a bonus to all saves, as well as determines your lay on hands times/channel/smite(if you have oath of righteousness) and paladins want cha to be their 2nd stat most times because of it. There isn't that incentive for the swashbuckler.
What if panache equals Cha modifier + Dex modifier?
I think someone brought it up earlier, but would changing your initial Panache so that you begin with 1 + CHA points each day (minimum 1) make Charisma more attractive? That at least would give you some mechanical benefit to having a 12 Charisma, and means a 14 Charisma Swashbuckler can Riposte once and still have the Panache reserved for Precise Strike.
These would both make the problem worse. The thing with panache is you largely maintain a state of equilibrium with it. 1 point never gets touched, 1 point is eventually getting spent and reacquired at a rate that eventually approaches once per round. It's surprisingly difficult to spend it any faster than that, so all you really get from having more than 2 points is a little spillover room to help if you get say, no crits this round, but 2 next round. Handy enough if you happen to get access to it, but not something you can really actively pursue with a class as incredibly stat starved as this. If 12 cha gave you 2 points, there'd be no particular reason to go up to 14. If 7 cha+18 dex gave you 2 points, there is no reason at all not to dump it.
Really though, since having a respectable charisma gives you enough panache as is, it isn't really a problem to be solved in this direction, you just need some other perk to having high cha to compliment it.
I still think 1+CHA (minimum 0), along with some tweaking of the Panache costs of Deeds, would be the best solution. Things that work "as long as you have at least one Panache" should either be taken off Panache entirely, or have their effect improved and cost one Panache.
Dude,
My apologies then. I honestly do not know how to respond to the criticism then.
My comment was that after level 11, the swashbuckler gains a powerful defensive ability. It is powerful. It is not overpowered, it is not going to stop a wizard's fireball. Neither will a Mithral +5 Plate of Major Fortification and Speed, yet I don't see people nitpicking that that is not a powerful defensive item?
Prior to this playtest, would you have considered it a powerful defensive ability if you could make a full BAB check against 2 to 8 attacks a round, and if you beat their attack, you negate it completely? No secondary abilities, no bleed, no way of stopping it. I certainly would have. I never said it was the game breaker, but it can absolutely shut down any 3/4 BAB melee person (Rogue, Ninja, NA Alchemist, Duelist bard, PC Duelist) completely. It can do a major number on a full BAB melee person in that it can cut their DPR in half if not more (Fighter, Ranger, Paladin).
Sure, there's some classes it can't affect (archer, gunslinger, caster), but since I never claimed it could, saying I'm too vague in my comment is kind of disingenuous. It would be different if I said 'SB RULES! YOU R ALL SUXORS!' or something stupid like that. But giving an opinion which says it can shut down melee is specific, and claiming that I am to vague because I didn't specify that melee means melee and not ranged or magic or psionics or rocks fall?
What if panache equals Cha modifier + Dex modifier?I think someone brought it up earlier, but would changing your initial Panache so that you begin with 1 + CHA points each day (minimum 1) make Charisma more attractive? That at least would give you some mechanical benefit to having a 12 Charisma, and means a 14 Charisma Swashbuckler can Riposte once and still have the Panache reserved for Precise Strike.These would both make the problem worse. The thing with panache is you largely maintain a state of equilibrium with it. 1 point never gets touched, 1 point is eventually getting spent and reacquired at a rate that eventually approaches once per round. It's surprisingly difficult to spend it any faster than that, so all you really get from having more than 2 points is a little spillover room to help if you get say, no crits this round, but 2 next round. Handy enough if you happen to get access to it, but not something you can really actively pursue with a class as incredibly stat starved as this. If 12 cha gave you 2 points, there'd be no particular reason to go up to 14. If 7 cha+18 dex gave you 2 points, there is no reason at all not to dump it.
Really though, since having a respectable charisma gives you enough panache as is, it isn't really a problem to be solved in this direction, you just need some other perk to having high cha to compliment it.
I have found it to be very different in my experience. First of all, since the 1 point never gets touched, the Opportune Parry/Riposte combo requires a minimum of 3 panache. If all you ever want to spend panache on is Precise Strike (a problem in and of itself), than I can see where you might be coming from, but it can be very easy to spend a LOT of panache in a single round depending upon circumstance. Also, I don't know where you are getting 1 panache a round from, or at what level. 15-20 crit threat is nice, but there is no guarantee that even hits with your last iterative attack, let alone confirm, against anything that comes your way.
I built a swash with 5 panache at 7th level (feat and headband), and in the first encounter it was fantastic... then the next encounter I only started with 2 and had to change tactics, and then headed into the third with 3 where I felt more comfortable, etc. The number was all over the place, even with the high ceiling. I will say, there are a lot more options when you have the panache pool to support it.
1+CHA modifier may be overly penalizing to the stat, but at least it gets the point across. It also allows you to use the features you get at first level without making Charisma your highest stat. Otherwise you simply add a feat tax to every deed on the list not called Precise Strike. Yippee. Making it exactly the same as the Gunslinger seems good on the surface, but a swash has more ways to spend more panache in a given turn, and a much bigger incentive not to spend that last point. On top of that, Wisdom adds to the only weak save a gunslinger has, while Charisma adds to some social skills.
Now, you do have a valid point in it takes major dedication of character creation resources to get a level of panache that feels or acts any differently than a swash with a 5 Cha. That is a serious problem, and it needs to be addressed in more ways than just the panache pool minimum/maximum.
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So, does anyone have an issue with the Swashbarian I posted?
I think it shows pretty explicitly that this dip is incredibly good, and that strength based swashsbucklers are too good considering the theme of the class.
I mean, what I was looking at was 12th level and drawing comparisons.
I didn't post a lvl 12 dex based swashbuckler to directly compare (I was hoping MechE would do that) but I guess I can throw something together to investigate. I think that signature deed: Bleeding Wound will close the gap between the strength based and dex based quite nicely, but I won't know until I run some numbers.
As I really look into it, I think that once the swash hits level 11 (assuming signature deed is still available at release and usable on bleeding wound) the dex based swash might be the best way to go. I know I might get attacked for waffling here, but as I have said before, I am not predisposed in any particular way except to say that Dex based swashes should be the best kind. So, I think a strong look into this higher level build is worthwhile. Shield Master is what pulls the SnB fighter out of the depths at 11th, so perhaps this is when the swashbuckler becomes fully realized as well.
So, here's the Swashbarian:
Level 12 human barbarian 2/swashbuckler 10
Str:24 (+2 race, +2 belt, +3 levels)
Dex:14 (+2 belt)
Con:16 (+2 belt)
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:8
Feats:
H. Power Attack
1. Weapon Focus Rapier
3. Iron Will
5. Extra Rage
6. swash bonus (Weapon Spec. Rapier)
7. Extra Panache/Grit
9. Extra Rage
10. swash bonus (Greater Weapon Focus)
11. Great Fortitude
Features: Rage (21 rounds per day), Rage Power (Superstition +2), Fast Movement +10, Uncanny Dodge, Bravery +3, Nimble +2, Weapon Training +2
Gear:
+3 mithral breastplate
+2 furious courageous rapier
+3 buckler
+2 belt of physical perfection
+3 cloak of resistance
+1 RoP
+1 AoNA
Gloves of Dueling
Headband of Havoc (Superstition)
Other stuff
From now on I am going to assume that I am raging pretty much all the time with 25 rounds per day.
RAGE BONUSES: (note: courageous furious weapon becomes a +4 weapon when raging and adds +2 to all morale bonuses)
Strength +6, Constitution +6, AC -2, Will Saves +4, Superstition Save Bonus +5 (with headband of havoc)
RAGING DEFENSES
HP: 157
AC: 27 (10+9 armor, +2 dex, +1 ring, +1 amulet, +2 nimble, +4 buckler, -2 rage)
Fort:17 Ref:12 Will:13 (+5 to saves versus spells and supernatural)
RAGING OFFENSE
Attack Bonus (+12 bab, +10 strength, +4 weapon, +2 focus feats, +4 training w/gloves, -4 power attack)
Rapier Attack +28/+23/+18
Damage: 1d6 + 28 + 10 (15-20/x2)
CR 12 average, same as before AC 28
Raging Full attack DPR: 95.45
With crits factored: 115.67
To go one step further, we have 3 panache, so we can use pommel swipe pretty regularly (chance to get 1 confirmed crit per round is 49.3% so lets say this happens once every other round and cut the DPR add in half)
So on a round that he pommel swipes, DPR add is: 40.92
So his DPR in a pommel swipe round is totaled to: 156.6
And here is a Dexerous Swashbuckler
Level 12 human swashbuckler 12
Str:14 (+2 belt)
Dex:24 (+2 race, +2 belt, +3 levels)
Con:16 (+2 belt)
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:8
Feats:
H. Combat Reflexes
1. Weapon Focus Rapier
3. Iron Will
4. swash bonus (Weapon Spec. Rapier)
5. Great Fortitude
7. Extra Panache/Grit
8. swash bonus (Greater Weapon Focus)
9. Power Attack
11. Signature Deed (bleeding wound)
12. swash bonus (Greater Weapn Spec Rapier)
Features: Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Bravery +3, Nimble +3, Weapon Training +2
Gear:
+3 mithral chain shirt
+4 rapier
+3 buckler
+2 belt of physical perfection
+3 cloak of resistance
+1 RoP
+1 AoNA
Gloves of Dueling
Other stuff
DEFENSES
HP: 121
AC: 32 (10, +7 armor, +4 buckler, +6 dex, +3 nimble, +1 ring, +1 ammy)
Fort:12 Ref:18 Will:10
OFFENSE
Rapier Attack +25/+20/+15 (+12 BAB, +7 dex, +2 focus feats, +4 weapon, +4 training, -4 power attack)
Damage: 1d6 + 22 + 19 (+12 precision, +7 bleeding wound, +4 training, +4 weapon, +4 specialization feats, +2 strength, +8 power attack)
Note: the 19 is separated because these are not multiplied on crits and do not apply to certain creatures.
Full Attack DPR (still vs. AC 28): 86.78 .9 .65 .4 (25.5)
With Crits Factored in: 102.02
Just like the Swashbarian, the Dex Swash is going to use pommel swipe as his main panache point usage, his chance to crit at least once per full attack is 42.7% so he should be able to do this at least once every other round)
Pommel Swipe DPR add: 41.2
Total DPR in Pommel Swipe Rounds: 143.22
So, the notable differences.
The Raging Swashbarian has
DPR: 115.67 (156.6 with pommel swipe)
AC:27
Saves: Fort:17 Ref:12 Will:13(16 vs fear)
Saves vs Sp and Su: Fort:22 Ref:17 Will: 18(21 vs fear)
Other: +36 Hp when raging.
The Dexterous Swashbuckler has
DPR: 102.02 (143.22 with pommel swipe)
AC: 32
Saves: Fort:12 Ref:18 Will:10
Deeds: Bleeding Wound, Evasive, Subtle Blade (immune to disarm, steal, sunder)
Other: Combat Reflexes for 8 possible AoOs per round
So, Raging Swashbarian has:
+13.65 DPR
+5 Fort Save (+10 versus spells and supernatural)
+3 will saves (+8 versus spells and supernatural)
+36 Hitpoints
+10 ft. Movement speed
And the Dexterous Swashbuckler has:
+5 AC
+6 Reflex Saves (+1 versus a spell or supernatural ability)
Immunity to disarm steal and sunder
+7 Attacks of opportunity
Improved Uncanny Dodge and Evasion
Skill points are equal. The Swashbarian is better at climb and swim, breaking doors and bursting bonds. The Dexterous swash is better at acrobatics. Escape artist might be useful, but not an advantage, since the swashbarian will just use BAB+Str to have the same bonus as the Dextrous Swashbuckler using Ranks+trained+dex.
So we have, what I think, is a really interesting picture here. The damage is close enough, I think, to call it a push. The swashbarian is doing something like 10% more damage in average. What is more interesting here is that the Dexterous Swashbuckler is actually hitting harder on regular attacks, but the swashbarian is getting a lot more out of crits. Obviously against anything immune to bleed or precision damage, the Swashbarian is MUCH better.
The big difference here is in defenses. The Swashbarian has immensely better saving throws, while the Dex swash has a better AC.
But still, Bleeding Wound with signature deed is really closing the Gap, and the beauty of it is that you still get to add your strength, so you are effectively getting strength AND dex on your damage rolls.
If you have a swashbuckler that DOES NOT DIP. Once they hit level 11, the Dexterous swashbuckler should be better (unless you are up against a ton of things immune to bleed/crits, but then both will be pretty bad).
Between the swashbarian and the dexterous swashbuckler, which is the better character? Well, I think that I would always take +10 fort and +8 will over the AC and initiative bonuses, but at least they are pretty close.
Is it just me, or would Monk/Gunslinger have been a better combo for this? Flurry with light or one handed bladed weapons as long as you have at least one Panache, Charisma to AC, good saves all around, and bonus Improved Manoeuvre feats without Combat Expertise required (but you still need it for Greater, as with the Monk). Replace Precise Strike with Charisma to damage, and you have a good reason to go DEX/CHA instead of pure STR.
Quite possibly, perhaps in the Ultimate Class Guide?
The design team has been pretty clear about definitely not switching up the class combos, and I'm OK with that. Not that I don't like the idea of a gunslinger/monk, because (as many have suggested) that might achieve a better Dex/Cha character. Still, we must play with the hand we are dealt, and that is fighter/gunslinger. Heck, most of my criticism would be very different or possibly absent if I wasn't viewing this class through the lens of "alternate fighter/gunslinger," and the awesome sounding class description in the playtest document.
At this point, as I think about the class, I think that once you hit level 11 for signature deed (bleeding wound), the swashbuckler works.
The saving throws are still 100% terrible, and pretty much require you to at least take Great Fortitude and Iron Will... even then, they aren't good.
BUT, with this Feat/Deed combo, Dexterity beats out strength, and that is a very good thing.... the other side of this becomes, "why not do dex to damage earlier?" and for that I have no answer.
If its balanced at level 11, there is really no reason that it can't be balanced a little earlier as well. If you limit the damage bonus to swashbuckler level (just like canny defense from the Duelist) then you avoid dip problems, and you keep things well in line in terms of progression. This can still be a deed requiring 1 point of panache to use (not spent, but in the pool) as it will be at level 11 with signature deed.
The OTHER big questions I have center around Pommel Swipe. It is an extra attack at full BAB with a trip attempt rider, so it ends up being perhaps the best deed to spend panache on. But its a bit unclear in these areas:
1. Does Pommel Swipe allow you to add Precise Strike damage?
2. Does Pommel Swipe benefit from the Swashbuckler's Imp. Crit?
3. Can pommel swipe benefit from Bleeding Wound?
4. Does pommel swipe work with Finesse?
I think that the answer is yes to all of the above. Just because the damage dealt changes to Bl, does not mean that it isn't a Light or One-Handed Piercing weapon anymore... in fact it is required that you use such a weapon to use pommel swipe. If any of these are not the case, then the Swashbuckler ends up being forced to use a light weapon, and that makes very little sense.
The last question that comes up is this:
5. Is the swashbuckler using the weapon to attempt the Trip or is he using his base CMB?
Using the weapon means adding in enhancement bonuses, focus feats, weapon training, and Dexterity rather than strength for CMB. NOT using the weapon makes this attempt far more difficult.
I commented on this earlier, but since the wording of the Pommel Swipe deed includes "The swashbuckler is considered proficient with this weapon attack" it implies that the "weapon" you are using to attack with is the pommel itself, which is bludgeoning.
SO you don't add any of 1, 2, 3, or 4. As for point 5, it is the pommel, so you would get (as indicated in the deed description) the enhancement bonus of the weapon, strength, and BAB. As it is not technically a trip attempt, no modifiers to the trip maneuver work.. although this also means that targets with more than 2 legs do not get their increased CMD.
That is my interpretation. Still hoping a dev stops by my playtest post and answers that--along with other questions.
Swift Feint had me scratching my head. Maybe it's just the name. It looks more like a Distracting Attack. Use a standard attack and if you would normally hit, then cause them to be Flat-footed instead until their next action.
This would be good if you have a rogue or if you want the rest of party to avoid AoO from target. Personally, I wouldn't see using this very often if ever. In order to get the most benefit out of it, I would need to delay until after they attacked and then hope I hit. But then if there was a rogue in group, I would be foregoing my damage for him to do his damage, assuming he hits. The rogue would need to do double damage over me to really make it worth while.
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Is it just me, or would Monk/Gunslinger have been a better combo for this? Flurry with light or one handed bladed weapons as long as you have at least one Panache, Charisma to AC, good saves all around, and bonus Improved Manoeuvre feats without Combat Expertise required (but you still need it for Greater, as with the Monk). Replace Precise Strike with Charisma to damage, and you have a good reason to go DEX/CHA instead of pure STR.
*mind blown*
Swift Feint had me scratching my head. Maybe it's just the name. It looks more like a Distracting Attack. Use a standard attack and if you would normally hit, then cause them to be Flat-footed instead until their next action.
This would be good if you have a rogue or if you want the rest of party to avoid AoO from target. Personally, I wouldn't see using this very often if ever. In order to get the most benefit out of it, I would need to delay until after they attacked and then hope I hit. But then if there was a rogue in group, I would be foregoing my damage for him to do his damage, assuming he hits. The rogue would need to do double damage over me to really make it worth while.
I could actually see one use of the ability, but it requires an almost entirely defensive/reactive playstyle. Basically, if you can pump your AC as high as possible, and use the Snake Style chain, you could forgo your normal attack, to debuff the enemy. This will allow ranged and melee Sneak Attack characters to get their SA dice. Meanwhile, on the enemies turn, when they attack you, you can use Snake Style to deflect 1 hit per round, and hope the other attacks miss. Any attack that misses you, allows you to make an AoO against that enemy.
Effectively, you're making an attack for every one of theirs, and denying them their dexterity at the same time. If you were to dip MoMS 2 levels, you could have both Crane Style and Snake Style active at the same time, giving you two deflections and some AoO while pumping your AC through the roof.
Again, this requires a defensive/reactive playstyle than an offensive/proactive playstyle.
Is it just me, or would Monk/Gunslinger have been a better combo for this? Flurry with light or one handed bladed weapons as long as you have at least one Panache, Charisma to AC, good saves all around, and bonus Improved Manoeuvre feats without Combat Expertise required (but you still need it for Greater, as with the Monk). Replace Precise Strike with Charisma to damage, and you have a good reason to go DEX/CHA instead of pure STR.
THANK YOU!
I've been saying a Gunslinger/Monk hybrid would make a much more fitting Swashbuckler class for a while now.
Though I'd not give them all good saves, just Fort and Reflex, and let them add Dex to damage instead of Cha (for some reason Cha to damage doesn't seem right to me).
I'd rewrite their list of bonus feats, though. Remove stuff like Medusa Strike, Gorgon Fist, Ki Throw and other similarly Monk-ish feats in favor of the Greater Combat Maneuver feats at 6th level. Probably Switch Improved/Greater Bull Rush for Improved/Greater Dirty Trick too.
Swift Feint had me scratching my head. Maybe it's just the name. It looks more like a Distracting Attack. Use a standard attack and if you would normally hit, then cause them to be Flat-footed instead until their next action.
This would be good if you have a rogue or if you want the rest of party to avoid AoO from target. Personally, I wouldn't see using this very often if ever. In order to get the most benefit out of it, I would need to delay until after they attacked and then hope I hit. But then if there was a rogue in group, I would be foregoing my damage for him to do his damage, assuming he hits. The rogue would need to do double damage over me to really make it worth while.
Yeah... its bad, and it needs to get changed... it does nothing.
The only situation where I can see this being a good option: You are in a group with a rogue that is MUCH higher level than you, and the target has improved uncanny dodge and 5 more levels than the rogue so flanking isn't an option. Can't see this ever happening.
As for the much maligned Targeted Strike, at least this gives you something to do when you are fighting a construct with DR 10/-. Because other than that you are pretty useless in that fight.
Yeah... Having a dedicated martial class* depend on Precision damage to work is a really bad idea.
That said, constructs are no longer immune to precision damage, IIRC.
*A dedicated martial class is exactly what the current Swashbuckler is. Just another front-liner hoping to get the chance to stand still and full attack round after round, not a cunning combatant or mobile striker.
The only problem with this is it requires the enemy (or the GM) to be pretty stupid. If you are foregoing your attacks to debuff, then there is really no reason for the mob to attack you. It's the problem with any high-AC/low-damage class (see Crane Style Monk for more information); if you aren't doing enough damage for the mobs to want...Swift Feint had me scratching my head. Maybe it's just the name. It looks more like a Distracting Attack. Use a standard attack and if you would normally hit, then cause them to be Flat-footed instead until their next action.
This would be good if you have a rogue or if you want the rest of party to avoid AoO from target. Personally, I wouldn't see using this very often if ever. In order to get the most benefit out of it, I would need to delay until after they attacked and then hope I hit. But then if there was a rogue in group, I would be foregoing my damage for him to do his damage, assuming he hits. The rogue would need to do double damage over me to really make it worth while.
I could actually see one use of the ability, but it requires an almost entirely defensive/reactive playstyle. Basically, if you can pump your AC as high as possible, and use the Snake Style chain, you could forgo your normal attack, to debuff the enemy. This will allow ranged and melee Sneak Attack characters to get their SA dice. Meanwhile, on the enemies turn, when they attack you, you can use Snake Style to deflect 1 hit per round, and hope the other attacks miss. Any attack that misses you, allows you to make an AoO against that enemy.
Effectively, you're making an attack for every one of theirs, and denying them their dexterity at the same time. If you were to dip MoMS 2 levels, you could have both Crane Style and Snake Style active at the same time, giving you two deflections and some AoO while pumping your AC through the roof.
Again, this requires a defensive/reactive playstyle than an offensive/proactive playstyle.
Depends on the intelligence level of the Monster. Keep in mind how the scenario would play out from a live action point of view, rather than a turn based point of view.
The Swashbuckler might do something like swipe at a monster's feet, which puts him off balance, letting his allies take advantage of that momentary opening. Meanwhile, the Monster then swipes at the Swashbuckler, who dodges (as his AC is probably more Dex/Dodge than armor) and then counter-attacks. The Monster keeps swiping, getting more frustrated that he's missing, while the Swashbuckler keeps stabbing him with that toothpick of his.
So the Swashbuckler is, effectively, getting his full attack off (possibly more than his full attack if the Monster is something like a Hydra), while simultaneously debuffing the enemy.
One way this could work, is a SA class with a reach or ranged weapon. He could stand behind the Swashbuckler, who uses his high AC and counter-attacks from Snake Fang to keep attacking the monster, while the SA class can stay safe and still SA the monster too.
By the way, I keep saying Sneak Attack class because there is more than just the Rogue who gets it now. It could be a Vivisectionist, or a Slayer or a Rogue etc.
Now I'm not saying this is a good method of running combats, as it prolongs fights. I'm just saying this is the only method I can think of where Swift Feint would be useful. The Snake Style chain would let the Swashbuckler make a pseudo-full attack, while using the Swift Feint.
Depends on the intelligence level of the Monster. Keep in mind how the scenario would play out from a live action point of view, rather than a turn based point of view.
The Swashbuckler might do something like swipe at a monster's feet, which puts him off balance, letting his allies take advantage of that momentary opening. Meanwhile, the Monster then swipes at the Swashbuckler, who dodges (as his AC is probably more Dex/Dodge than armor) and then counter-attacks. The Monster keeps swiping, getting more frustrated that he's missing, while the Swashbuckler keeps stabbing him with that toothpick of his.
So the Swashbuckler is, effectively, getting his full attack off (possibly more than his full attack if the Monster is something like a Hydra), while simultaneously debuffing the enemy.
One way this could work, is a SA class with a reach or ranged weapon. He could stand behind the Swashbuckler, who uses his high AC and counter-attacks from Snake Fang to keep attacking the monster, while the SA class can stay safe and still SA the monster too.
By the way, I keep saying Sneak Attack class because there is more than just the Rogue who gets it now. It could be a Vivisectionist, or a Slayer or a Rogue etc.
Now I'm not saying this is a good method of running combats, as it prolongs fights. I'm just saying this is the only method I can think of where Swift Feint would be useful. The Snake Style chain would let the Swashbuckler make a pseudo-full attack, while using the Swift Feint.
I don't see where this argument is coming from...
You can still use snake style and crane style when just normally attacking.
So this combo doesn't really make Swift Feint any better in any way whatsoever...
Thanks to HeroLab I can now build and post SB builds much more efficiently! :D
So let's make a little experiment...
Half-Elf Swashbuckler 6
CG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +11
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 18 (+5 armor, +2 shield, +4 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 49 (6d10+12)
Fort +7, Ref +12, Will +7 (+2 vs. fear); +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities bravery +2; Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 rapier +13/+8 (1d6+5/15-20/×2+6 Precise Strike) and
. . masterwork rapier +13/+8 (1d6+4/15-20/×2+6 Precise Strike)
Special Attacks deed: menacing swordplay, deed: opportune parry, deed: precise strike, deed: riposte, panache
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Statistics
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Str 13, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +6; CMB +7; CMD 23 (23 vs. disarm, 23 vs. steal, 23 vs. sunder)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Lunge, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (rapier), Weapon Specialization (rapier)
Traits indomitable faith, resilient
Skills Acrobatics +13, Bluff +11, Diplomacy +11, Intimidate +11, Perception +11; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, deed: derring-do
Languages Common, Elven
SQ deed: recovery, deed: swashbuckler initiative, elf blood, swashbuckler finesse
Other Gear +1 Chain shirt, +1 Buckler, +1 Rapier, Masterwork Rapier, Belt of incredible dexterity +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Ring of protection +1, 955 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Deed: Derring-Do (Ex) Spend 1 panache to add 1d6 when making Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, or Swim check.
Deed: Menacing Swordplay (Ex) While have 1 panache, demoralize struck opponent as swift action.
Deed: Opportune Parry (Ex) Spend 1 panache and 1 AoO to attempt to parry a melee attack.
Deed: Precise Strike +6 (Ex) While have 1 panache, bonus to ak/dmg w/ light/one-hand piercing weaps.
Deed: Recovery (Ex) When attacked, spend 1 panache to step 5 ft. and gain +2 AC vs attack.
Deed: Riposte (Ex) When parrying, spend 1 panache and AoO to atttack your attacker.
Deed: Swashbuckler Initiative (Ex) While have Panache, can use a free hand to draw a light or one-handed piercing weapon as part of the initiative check.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Swashbuckler Finesse At 2nd level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, as well as gains a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder attempts made against these weapons.
Half-Elf Swashbuckler 6
CG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 18 (+5 armor, +2 shield, +2 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 49 (6d10+12)
Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +8 (+2 vs. fear); +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities bravery +2; Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 morningstar +13/+8 (1d8+9/19-20/×2+6 Precise Strike) and
. . masterwork morningstar +13/+8 (1d8+8/19-20/×2+6 Precise Strike)
Special Attacks deed: menacing swordplay, deed: opportune parry, deed: precise strike, deed: riposte, panache
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Statistics
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Str 21, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +6; CMB +11; CMD 25 (25 vs. disarm, 25 vs. steal, 25 vs. sunder)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Lunge, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (morningstar), Weapon Specialization (morningstar)
Traits indomitable faith, resilient
Skills Acrobatics +10, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Intimidate +7, Perception +12, Sense Motive +10; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, deed: derring-do
Languages Celestial, Common, Elven
SQ deed: recovery, deed: swashbuckler initiative, elf blood, swashbuckler finesse
Other Gear +1 Chain shirt, +1 Buckler, +1 Morningstar, Masterwork Morningstar, Belt of giant strength +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Ring of protection +1, 979 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Deed: Derring-Do (Ex) Spend 1 panache to add 1d6 when making Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, or Swim check.
Deed: Menacing Swordplay (Ex) While have 1 panache, demoralize struck opponent as swift action.
Deed: Opportune Parry (Ex) Spend 1 panache and 1 AoO to attempt to parry a melee attack.
Deed: Precise Strike +6 (Ex) While have 1 panache, bonus to ak/dmg w/ light/one-hand piercing weaps.
Deed: Recovery (Ex) When attacked, spend 1 panache to step 5 ft. and gain +2 AC vs attack.
Deed: Riposte (Ex) When parrying, spend 1 panache and AoO to atttack your attacker.
Deed: Swashbuckler Initiative (Ex) While have Panache, can use a free hand to draw a light or one-handed piercing weapon as part of the initiative check.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Swashbuckler Finesse At 2nd level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, as well as gains a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder attempts made against these weapons.
So... For 1 point of Panache and having an AC 2 points lower, the Str based, Cha-dumping Swashbucklers gets:
- the ability to actually do something useful at 1st level.
- better Will save (although it still sucks)
- better damage (and his critical hits are worth a damn)
- more skill points
- ability to use an weapon 2-handed if necessary and still deal lots of damage even if he spends all his Panache.
- ability to actually do something significant against creatures immune to precision damage.
BTW, notice how even with the help of 2 traits and 1 alternate racial ability, their saves are nothing to write home about.
Depends on the intelligence level of the Monster. Keep in mind how the scenario would play out from a live action point of view, rather than a turn based point of view.
The Swashbuckler might do something like swipe at a monster's feet, which puts him off balance, letting his allies take advantage of that momentary opening. Meanwhile, the Monster then swipes at the Swashbuckler, who dodges (as his AC is probably more Dex/Dodge than armor) and then counter-attacks. The Monster keeps swiping, getting more frustrated that he's missing, while the Swashbuckler keeps stabbing him with that toothpick of his.
So the Swashbuckler is, effectively, getting his full attack off (possibly more than his full attack if the Monster is something like a Hydra), while simultaneously debuffing the enemy.
One way this could work, is a SA class with a reach or ranged weapon. He could stand behind the Swashbuckler, who uses his high AC and counter-attacks from Snake Fang to keep attacking the monster, while the SA class can stay safe and still SA the monster too.
By the way, I keep saying Sneak Attack class because there is more than just the Rogue who gets it now. It could be a Vivisectionist, or a Slayer or a Rogue etc.
Now I'm not saying this is a good method of running combats, as it prolongs fights. I'm just saying this is the only method I can think of where Swift Feint would be useful. The Snake Style chain would let the Swashbuckler make a pseudo-full attack, while using the Swift Feint.
I don't see where this argument is coming from...
You can still use snake style and crane style when just normally attacking.
So this combo doesn't really make Swift Feint any better in any way whatsoever...
Sneak Attack is typically triggered in fights by flanking enemies. That means characters with Sneak Attack that use ranged weapons, have a hard time getting their SA dice. Also, since the SA characters tend to be on the squishy side, it's not a bad idea for them to use a reach weapon.
The point was, if you have a ranged SA companion, or a reach SA companion, then using Swift Feind, in conjunction with Snake Style as a Swashbuckler, would allow your companion to get their SA dice, while you make a psuedo-full attack using Snake Style Attack of Opportunities.
It is, basically, the only time I can think of where someone would use Swift Feint often in a fight.
[Edit] To clarify, I'm not saying Swift Feint is OP, or even good, I think it's awful. The fact it needs such a heavy amount of 'ifs' to be even marginally worth it just shows how bad it is.
It's like the Monk's Stunning Fist; if you hit, and if you deal damage and then if the enemy fails the fortitude save, then it's good. If you fail at any of the three, then it sucks.
I have been playing RPG since 1998, and as far as I can remember, i always customized classes and stuff for my groups. Back in the 3.5, I have already used a home brew version of the "Duelist", here are some things that I used:
* At 1st Level, the Player had to choose between Inteligence or Charisma, and the chosen hability would rule all the other features of the class.
But, why this? Well, in my mind, I used to imagine different Swashbucklers, some of them would be cunning while others would be kinda of "mockers", with sharp tongues and using the body language.
* Weapon Finesse at 1st Level (Still don't know why you didn't put this)
* The chosen atribute as a dodge bônus to AC since the first level.
* At the 5th Level and each 5 levels thereafter, this DUelist would receive the Snake Atack feature (+1d6 in each occasion).
* At 6th Level, the Duelist would receive a Luck Reroll 1/day. He would receive another Luck reroll at 12th Level and again at the 18th level.
Other features:
* He would add the bonus of the chosen atribute to damage rolls.
* He received a fixed bonus to Initiative.
* He could 2 class skills and he would receive a bonus on them equal to 1/2 the Levels of Swashbuckler.
* He wouldn't automatically fail in any Acrobatic checks with a natural "1".
These are my two cents. If I remember something else, I'll post later.
yeah I guess...
Still, not a good deed. I think it would be good to change it or cut it out while we are in this phase of testing.
Targeted strike is pretty bad too, but at least it has some situational uses like knocking "the big red button" out of an opponents hand, tripping a truly massive opponent (although I am not sure what happens if it doesn't have legs) hampering a Construct (since you aren't going to do much for damage there anyway).
It is not a "great" deed, but I don't think that all deeds need to be good ALL the time... situational stuff is also very cool. Recovery is a great example. There are only a few situations where it can help you avoid a full-attack, but when you can its a big deal.
Swift feint isn't even situational... its just really really bad. Normally the situational stuff has a really big impact when that limited situation arises, and the stuff you can use all the time is a little weaker in its effect because you get to use it so often.
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The general rule for Pathfinder though is that you don't auto-fail a skill check on a 1 anyway.