Lead Designer
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This thread is for discussing the Brawler. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
**OFFICIAL UPDATES**
The following updates apply to the Brawler.
• In Table 1-5, the Brawlers unarmed damage at 12th level should be 2d6. At 16th level, it should be 2d8.
• In the bonus feats class feature, change the first sentence to read "At 2nd level and every three levels thereafter..."
• Brawler levels count as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
• A brawler counts as a monk for the purpose of Stunning Fist's uses per day.
• A brawler can use the feats granted by brawler's flurry to qualify for other feats, but can only use those other feats when using brawler's flurry (as that's the only time she actually meets those prerequisites).
• We will be revising the capstone (level 20) ability for this class.
• We are discussing altering the weapon proficiencies, perhaps to simple weapons and weapons from the "close" fighter weapon group.
• Martial maneuvers will be clarified so that it refers to appropriate defenses (such as Armor Class and perhaps damage reduction) and excludes mental defenses (such as Iron Will).
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I think this thread missed being stickied.
The brawler's Martial Maneuvers ability's feats available and it's Bonus Feat selection don't quite line up. I would consider making them both the same (a combat feat that improves her defenses, melee attacks, or ability to preform or resist combat maneuvers). As it is, they seem too similar but different.
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Three things.
1 it's been brought up that the Brawler's bonus feat section say it gains a bonus feat at 2nd level and every two levels there after but the table doesn't reflect that. Which one of those is correct?
2 Does the Brawler's flurry allow the Brawler to take two weapon fighting feats such as two weapon rend?
3 Shouldn't the Brawler focus more on style feats considering the line that states that the Brawler focuses on "perfecting many styles of brutal unarmed combat." If anything will there ever be an archetype that uses a master of many styles motif such as a Mixed Martial Artist.
I think this thread missed being stickied.
Yes it did take me a minute to find.
Also Awesome Blow seems like an odd capstone....
Seconding that question about the feats! I noticed the typo too.. I personally hope he gains bonus feats as per the text rather than the table.
I have something to add myself. The Level 4 Ability that gives the Brawler +1 to AC/CMD seems rather lackluster - even as it progresses up to +4. Personally, I would rather spend a pair of feats (or one level dip into something with heavy armor proficiency) and just slap on a suit of Full Plate. Even without enchantments, at level 4, thats a +9 AC bonus over a +1.
Even at level 1, I'd grab Medium Armor Progression as my 1st level feat and get a cheap suit of Scale Mail. The brawler seems like he has absolutely horrible AC problems otherwise - a slaughter waiting to happen. Without going the medium armor route, at level 1, he only has enough starting gold (If considering average starting wealth) for a suit of Leather Lamellar armor at best - a +4 to his AC. Unless he wants to pump dex beyond 14 (I don't see why he would want to except for AC/Reflex), he's only going to be having an AC of 16. Should I instead sacrifice my first level feat and grab Medium armor Proficiency, I can not only save 10 gp on that Scale Mail, but I'll have an 18 AC instead - I can always swap out the feat later, thanks to the bonus feat rules.
This would be even more reasonable were I a Human - grab Power Attack and Medium Armor Proficiency, and this guy would be a brute at level 1.
Still, I'm loving this class! Going to be testing it out very soon in a self-run campaign.. going to stick with the light-armor strategy for now, though.
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Martial Maneuvers is going to be a headache with 1) people asking what feats apply and 2) people re writing their character sheets/die rolls as they add feats on the fly.
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i'm assuming (and hoping) that the chart is right, not the description (regarding bonus feats)... i'm actually a little bit concerned about the number of feats they get. they have a lot more going on than a standard fighter and are (or should be) sacrificing feats for it... but a fighter gets 11 bonus feats over 20 levels and the brawler gets 6 base, plus the 3 two weapon fighting feats (that they don't need to meet prerequisites for), and functionally double slice (since they have no off-hand for those attacks)- so that's effectively 10 bonus feats... and then you add martial maneuvers to that and i'm worried that there will be a bunch of builds kicking around that are better than a straight fighter could muster. (it actually seems like any non 2hander build would probably be better as a brawler...)
There is an issue with the brawlers unarmed strike damage at level 16 in the first table it is listed as 2d6 (rather than a monks 2d8) however the small and large monk table is still using the monks 2d8 unarmed strike damage which of the two is correct?
It should follow the monk progression: 2d8 at level 16.
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I really like Martial Maneuvers a lot. Brilliant was to add a class feature that is unique but not complex. Seems fairly simple as a class, which I also like. Bonus feats are spaced to not step on fighter toes.
I wish it was less monk weapon focused, but I can see the intent and it would be a pain to have a separate "Brawler weapon" category so I get it.
But I like it. Another good job. On to the next one.
i'm assuming (and hoping) that the chart is right, not the description (regarding bonus feats)... i'm actually a little bit concerned about the number of feats they get. they have a lot more going on than a standard fighter and are (or should be) sacrificing feats for it... but a fighter gets 11 bonus feats over 20 levels and the brawler gets 6 base, plus the 3 two weapon fighting feats (that they don't need to meet prerequisites for), and functionally double slice (since they have no off-hand for those attacks)- so that's effectively 10 bonus feats... and then you add martial maneuvers to that and i'm worried that there will be a bunch of builds kicking around that are better than a straight fighter could muster. (it actually seems like any non 2hander build would probably be better as a brawler...)
That.. actually makes a ton of sense. I hadn't done the math!
Also, am I the only one imagining this class as a leotard wearing masked wrestler bristling with muscles?
i'm worried that there will be a bunch of builds kicking around that are better than a straight fighter could muster. (it actually seems like any non 2hander build would probably be better as a brawler...)
I encourage you to create some characters and try it out—that's why we're having an open playtest. :)
Two more questions.
1. Do the Brawler levels count as monk levels for the number of stunning fist or elemental fist attempts you get a day?
2. Do the Brawler levels count as fighter levels for the purpose of taking fighter feats such as Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus?
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Two more questions.
1. Do the Brawler levels count as monk levels for the number of stunning fist or elemental fist attempts you get a day?
2. Do the Brawler levels count as fighter levels for the purpose of taking fighter feats such as Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus?
The fighter and monk are alternate classes to the brawler so you shouldn't be able to multiclass with either.
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This is the one I was excited for, but now I'm a bit iffy on it.
Martial Maneuvers is neat. Glad one of those "The Fighter should have something like this!" abilities made it in somewhere.
Bonus Feats are always nice.
Here's where I get a bit disappointed though, I was hoping it wouldn't get just "Flurry, but renamed".
I was hoping for something to do with Style Feats, really, with the TWFing thing as an OPTION (since it has a bunch of Bonus Feats the Monk doesn't get), not a built-in class feature.
I don't mind the Light Armor deal, mostly because the Brawling property exists. =)
Knockout is a cool ability, shame it comes so late.
Awesome Blow as a capstone was the real WTF moment of this class. It's just a combat maneuver. That you can already get.
Granted, only if you're Large, but still. A Prestige Class (Brother of the Seal) gets it potentially at 13th. That's a seriously crappy Capstone, to be honest.
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This is the one I was excited for, but now I'm a bit iffy on it.
Martial Maneuvers is neat. Glad one of those "The Fighter should have something like this!" abilities made it in somewhere.
Bonus Feats are always nice.
Here's where I get a bit disappointed though, I was hoping it wouldn't get just "Flurry, but renamed".
I was hoping for something to do with Style Feats, really, with the TWFing thing as an OPTION (since it has a bunch of Bonus Feats the Monk doesn't get), not a built-in class feature.
I don't mind the Light Armor deal, mostly because the Brawling property exists. =)
Knockout is a cool ability, shame it comes so late.
Awesome Blow as a capstone was the real WTF moment of this class. It's just a combat maneuver. That you can already get.
Granted, only if you're Large, but still. A Prestige Class (Brother of the Seal) gets it potentially at 13th. That's a seriously crappy Capstone, to be honest.
Glad to see you agreeing on the Style Feats and Capstone Rynjin.
The fighter and monk are alternate classes to the brawler so you shouldn't be able to multiclass with either.Two more questions.
1. Do the Brawler levels count as monk levels for the number of stunning fist or elemental fist attempts you get a day?
2. Do the Brawler levels count as fighter levels for the purpose of taking fighter feats such as Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus?
True but Elemental Fist, Stunning Fist, and Weapon specialization are feats.
The question is can a Brawler take Weapon specialization at level 4 and, IF the Brawler takes the Elemental Fist feat, How many uses does he get.
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I like the class, and martial maneuvers has great potential.
But I'm a bit disappointed in the weapon proficiencies. I don't see why it gets the eastern proficiencies (kama, katana, nunchucks, siangham) but doesn't get similar western ones (throwing axe for example).
I am really excited for the brawler. I have a cool character concept I want to try out with him both in society and out. Like other people I felt that the blows lack in the climactic moment. But I was also hoping for some of that fast movement to make it's way into the mix.
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Agreeing that Awesome Blow is a horrible capstone and that Knockout comes way too late... also, why is it a Supernatural ability?
Speaking of that, I really don't like that an otherwise mundane class gets something like Brawler Strike. I understand why it's included, but if something like fist wrappings or brass knuckles that use unarmed strike damage existed (at least, outside of houserules) this ability would be completely unnecessary and would free up slots for more interesting abilities.
Alright, built a quick Brawler for my Shattered Star Self run.. using 25 point build, max starting gold, 2 traits.
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Xp: 0
Favored: Brawler
Favored Bonus: +1 Hp
Female Varisian Human Brawler 1
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses: Perception +5
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AC 19 (Touch 12, FF 17)(+2 Dex, +6 Armor, +1 Trait)
Hp: 14 (1d10+3[Con]+1[Favored]
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1;
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Speed: 30 ft (20 ft Armored)
Melee: Unarmed Strike +5 (1d6+4/x2) or Cold Iron Cestus +5 (1d4+4/19-20x2)
Ranged: Shuriken +3 (1d2+4/x2)
SA: Martial Maneuvers (1/day, 1 Minute)
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Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
BAB +1, CMB +5, CMD 17
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike(B), Medium Armor Proficiency(1st), Power Attack(Human)
Skills(3)(4[Base]+1[Human]): Climb[1] +8(+3), Swim[1] +8(+3), Perception[1] +5, Sense Motive[1] +5, Acrobatics[1] +6(+1)(-3 Jumping)
Languages: Common, Varisian
SQ:
Racial: Skilled, Bonus Feat
Traits: Defender of the Society, Serpent Runner(-1 penalty on main hand attacks when dual wielding)
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Carrying Capacity:
Light (0-100); Medium (101-200); Heavy (201-300);
Current Load: 77 lbs (Light)
Weighs: 146 lbs
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Combat Gear: (46 lbs)
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Four Mirror Armor (45 lbs)
Cold Iron Cestus (1 lb)
Ammunition: (5 lbs)
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Shuriken [50] (5 lbs)
Magic Gear: (--)
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Consumables: (3 lbs)
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Potion of Cure Light Wounds (--)
Flask of Acid [3] (3 lbs)
Other: (23 lbs)
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Backpack (2 lbs)
Cold Weather Outfit (7 lbs)
Waterskin (Full) (4 lbs)
Bedroll (5 lbs)
Trail Rations [5 days] (5 lbs)
Jewelry: (--)
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Wealth: (--)
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0 pp
5 gp
9 sp
0 cp
Total Coins: 14 (--)
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As you can see, she forgoes the 'maneuverable' Brawler and goes for an armored variety - combined with Defender of the Society and her relatively cheap Four-Mirror Armor, she's sitting at 19 AC out the door - more if she uses her Maneuver Master to grab Dodge for a minute, though in all likelyhood, she'll save it for Cleave.
Honestly? I don't see her being much different than a standard fighter right now. She's basically a fighter who wasted a feat on Medium Armor Proficiency and Unarmed Strike, while hitting slightly harder with her fists. The only real difference at this level is the higher Reflex save and Maneuver Master - the latter of which might as well be made up for with the Fighter's bonus feats he didn't need to waste on armor proficiency. Oh, and gets Perception/Sense Motive as class skills. Those are quite nice, actually.
Later on, however, I could see her being more brutal. We'll see!
I would understand giving him harder fists but the alignment is a little off.
Alright, built a quick Brawler for my Shattered Star Self run.. using 25 point build, max starting gold, 2 traits.
** spoiler omitted **...
I can see the Brawler being an AMAZING bullrush and trip expert with the addition of Janni Style at later levels.
Edit: Maybe add some feinting flurry or two weapon feint into the mix.
Hmm so Brawlers can take feats as if they were Monks? Like ones that require "Monk Level 1"?
Thats.. not bad actually..
The question is can a Brawler take Weapon specialization at level 4 and, IF the Brawler takes the Elemental Fist feat, How many uses does he get.Seems to me that's the way Alternate Classes work.
I mean, if a Ninja takes the Rogue Talent ability, he uses his ninja level as his effective rogue level. They basically work like big archetypes.Those hybrid classes would be very big archetypes, but they still do say they're alternate classes.
I know we're gonna do it in my home games but I feel like this should be clarified quickly for official purposes.
The weapon proficiency list seems a bit odd, considering the name of the class and the description (which mentions they focus on "perfecting many styles of brutal unarmed combat"; emphasis mine). I'm not sure the Knowledge (dungeoneering) skill makes much sense, either.
No I don't think there is, Victor. Since you can use your unarmed strikes without needing both hands.. yeah you can do that. You can even go sword/board, as long as that 'sword' is a fist or monk weapon - and be considered dual wielding even!
Hmm
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Is there anything stopping a Brawler from taking shield proficiency, then flurrying with kicks or something and still wielding the shield?
Hopefully they will address this. I think they are going to need to be specific as to what the two-weapon fighting works with and how it works, and I really hope they separate from the monk list and just have it be a very narrow set of weapons that it works with, perhaps unarmed, daggers and brass knuckles, full stop.
This is a brawler, narrow is fine as to weapon choice IMHO.
I don't suppose there's any reason the class that takes half it's game from a class that is basically FEATS THE CLASS shouldn't be able to use some of it's feats to switch up it's play style a little. Plus using a shield, or at least a buckler, would help with the most likely low AC problem.
Is there anything stopping a Brawler from taking shield proficiency, then flurrying with kicks or something and still wielding the shield?Hopefully they will address this. I think they are going to need to be specific as to what the two-weapon fighting works with and how it works, and I really hope they separate from the monk list and just have it be a very narrow set of weapons that it works with, perhaps unarmed, daggers and brass knuckles, full stop.
This is a brawler, narrow is fine as to weapon choice IMHO.
I'd be ok with just unarmed strike.
I like having Shuriken, at least - allows him to quickly bring out some ranged firepower when it is needed. Plus, you can use them with Brawler's Flurry - as they have the Monk special weapon property.
Having a high-strength, full BAB character throwing little sharp bits of metal for 1d2+4 is always nice.
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This is the one class I know I'm going to get to personally play test, so I'm going to probably scrutinize it more.
I'll lay out my biggest concern first:
This guy is not as good at maneuvers as a Lore Warden. Period.
Why? Well Lore Warden gets a bonus to CMB on ALL maneuvers, it's a bigger bonus, and it's in ADDITION to their weapon training. Not to mention they can make a knowledge check for another +2 on top of that.
I've said many times that monks need weapon training. Giving it to them on one maneuver at a time is a real bad substitute. Compared to even vanilla fighter, I can take weapon training in monk weapons and since I get more feats than this guy, spend them on Weapon Focus and Specialization (I'm assuming, it doesn't specify if fighter hybrids count as fighters for feats) and STILL be better than this guy at unarmed maneuvers. If it was +1 to ALL maneuvers and got weapon training, it'd be alright.
Speaking of which, I expect Martial Maneuvers will mostly get used to pick up feats like weapon focus that aren't necessary for the build to function and simple enough to just throw in. But that's speculation so far. It may be more useful if it was allowed to bypass Stat prereqs or even BAB prereqs. As long as you have to get the feat chain in order. It'd be almost like getting to pretend to be a higher level for a little bit.
Also, why no enhanced base speed? And their capstone seems kinda weak.
But why should a brawler without the mysticism of a monk prefer the use of shuriken over say, throwing axes?
Flurrying aside they don't even have proficiency with throwing axes.
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i've seen that some designers/developers are poking around, so i just want to repeat a really significant question that needs to be answered before we can get too far building characters- do brawler levels count as monk and/or fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats (or determining the effects of feats like stunning fist)?
i've seen that some designers/developers are poking around, so i just want to repeat a really significant question that needs to be answered before we can get too far building characters- do brawler levels count as monk and/or fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats (or determining the effects of feats like stunning fist)?
Oh please answer this!
Shuriken can be drawn and thrown quicker - thats why I personally prefer them. Though, I suppose I could just carry a throwing axe at all times and kick people into submission..
Heh.
Plus, you can't Brawler's Flurry with a throwing axe - even if, flavor wise, one would think it throwing axes would make sense. The same idea goes for the Skald - it needs more 'viking'-like proficiencies.
I'd just like to point out that unlike in the case of a Monk's bonus feats, the Brawler needs to make all his prerequisites of all of his bonus feats.
Such as the Combat Expertise speedbump. Is this the design team's intention, to essentially assume that Brawlers will have 13+ Int?
It would also be a good idea to clarify whether Brawler's Flurry counts as the Two-Weapon Fighting chain for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. A similar issue applies to the Swashbuckler.
-Matt
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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So far this seems about to be what I expected. It's the Martial Artist archetype with a cool 1st level ability added on. However, one gigantic, glowing point of surprise is the capstone.
Awesome blow is 1) underwhelming, 2) uninteresting
Without a scaleable ability to top off at 20th, I'd recommend something like:
Fatal Fury (Ex): At 20th level as a full-attack action a brawler can strike with lethal fury against a single opponent. At the end of the brawler's full attack action, the target of fatal fury must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Brawler level + Strength modifier + 1 per successful hit made against the target of fatal fury during the brawler's full attack) or suffer 100 points of additional damage. This damage is added at the end of the full attack action and is not multiplied by any effect or ability.
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Inspiration is something like the assassination arts from Fist of the North Star where a martial artist punches a guy a hundred times and then he explodes. Mechanically it's the same effect of an arrow of slaying but with a higher DC. It's also similar to the Rogue's 20th level capstone, but without a direct "save or die" effect sameness.
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Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but it looks like I could use the martial maneuvers ability to grab any style feat I qualify for. And at 6th and 10th, go further in the chains with them. Sweet, use ALL the styles!
i've seen that some designers/developers are poking around, so i just want to repeat a really significant question that needs to be answered before we can get too far building characters- do brawler levels count as monk and/or fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats (or determining the effects of feats like stunning fist)?
The Swashbuckler has a line specifically stating that swashbuckler levels count as fighter levels for feats. If brawlers don't then I fear they don't...
Don't forget the "Ratatatatatatatatatatata!" of that ability, Rob. :P
Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but it looks like I could use the martial maneuvers ability to grab any style feat I qualify for. And at 6th and 10th, go further in the chains with them. Sweet, use ALL the styles!
Exactly what I was thinking.