Brawler Discussion


Class Discussion

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Feral wrote:
I don't want anything even remotely eastern themed in my brawler. No chi-shouts please.

You could shout, "ADRIAAAAAN!"

How do you feel about the supernatural ability to punch through steel walls as though your hands were adamantine weapons, out of curiosity?

Liberty's Edge

I'm less upset about that one. Western brawlers have been doing that for a long time in pop culture. A lot of superheroes come to mind.


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Okay, round 2.

I think that the Brawler is on the right track, but there is something it needs.

Give the Brawler an ability, similar to Master of Many styles bonus feat rewrite, that applies in the same way, but to Maneuver Feats.

This way, the archtypical Brawler doesn't have to have Int 13 and combat expertise to take something like improved trip, and they can get early access to the greater, quick and 'strike' versions of these feats.

I think that the whacky "pick three feats on the fly" ability is going to bog things down, and that is a good reason to vote against it. It is also just a nightmare for any new player.

Dark Archive

Feral wrote:
I'm less upset about that one. Western brawlers have been doing that for a long time in pop culture. A lot of superheroes come to mind.

Aww, no thank you.

Chi shouts are a no-no for me too. No anime in my brawler please. I want to make Mike Tyson as a PC.


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The versatility for this class is way high with the martial maneuvers class feature! Versatility in the martial world is great!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Captain K. wrote:
Feral wrote:
I'm less upset about that one. Western brawlers have been doing that for a long time in pop culture. A lot of superheroes come to mind.

Aww, no thank you.

Chi shouts are a no-no for me too. No anime in my brawler please. I want to make Mike Tyson as a PC.

More like M. Bison. The puncher of adamantine walls.


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Trivia moment-

In the original japanese release, Bison and Balrog all had their names switched around.

Balrog was actually named M. Bison, and directly modeled off of Mike Tyson, who was in his prime when the game was developed.

Then, shortly before the american release of Street Fighter II, Mike Tyson was accused of rape, which sent the media into a frenzy, and his career into a tailspin.

Capcom, not wanting a character in their game to be associated with a suspected rapist, switched up the names.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Doomed Hero wrote:

Trivia moment-

In the original japanese release, Bison and Balrog all had their names switched around.

Balrog was actually named M. Bison, and directly modeled off of Mike Tyson, who was in his prime when the game was developed.

Then, shortly before the american release of Street Fighter II, Mike Tyson was accused of rape, which sent the media into a frenzy, and his career into a tailspin.

Capcom, not wanting a character in their game to be associated with a suspected rapist, switched up the names.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

There was also a concern that Tyson's celebrity as a video game character might invite a trademark infringement lawsuit. He had already lent his name to an update of Punch-Out, making it Mike tyson's Punch-Out.

And Balrog does sound more like the name of a Ukrainian war criminal than an American boxer.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

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So, couple of notes.

I can say with confidence that we will probably be swapping out the capstone. Awesome blow is not good enough.

I am also pretty sure that the martial maneuvers language is going to get cleaned up... although I will need to spend some time in the office looking it over with the team.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


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I must agree with the dislike of the "eastern" weapon list. I would have like to have seen the cestus, brass knuckles, things like that that would fit a Brawler/Street-fighter style character.


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I'd rather just have the "Close" weapons.

Brawler with a Shield is what I've wanted to play close to damn near forever. Just let me be Captain America, for God's sakes.


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Doomed Hero wrote:

Trivia moment-

In the original japanese release, Bison and Balrog all had their names switched around.

It actually goes just a step further than that, as it was a 3 character name switch.

Names below displayed in an America release name = Japan release name format:

Balrog = Mike Bison
M. Bison = Vega
Vega = Balrog


northbrb wrote:
I must agree with the dislike of the "eastern" weapon list. I would have like to have seen the cestus, brass knuckles, things like that that would fit a Brawler/Street-fighter style character.

I am confused - brawlers are proficient with both cestus and brass knuckles since those are simple weapons.


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thenobledrake wrote:
northbrb wrote:
I must agree with the dislike of the "eastern" weapon list. I would have like to have seen the cestus, brass knuckles, things like that that would fit a Brawler/Street-fighter style character.
I am confused - brawlers are proficient with both cestus and brass knuckles since those are simple weapons.

You are correct, I apologize for my confusing comment. They do gain proficiency with those weapons. But I still dislike the "eastern" weapons, they just don't sit well for the class at least for me.


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Changes I think should be (in some cases NEED to be) to be made to the class:

-Drop Brawler's Flurry. It has Bonus Feats, if the player wants to make a TWFer boxer guy, let them choose to do so instead of making it out of the box.

---Replace it with something more akin to Fuse Styles from the MoMS Monk. To me, that fits much better for a pure, no mysticism martial artist/fighter than the ability to punch really fast.

-Awesome Blow as a capstone needs to go. Shift it back some. It has a high Str requirement and two prerequisites normally, so still somewhat late game is fine, but no later than 12th or 13th. At that point it's a nice ability that's not super powerful, but can be used every now and then to good effect. At 20th, on top of not being a particularly special ability, it's not very useful. I know even at level 14 I rarely fight things Medium size or smaller any more.

---Assuming the above change, add another ability at 15th or so that lets the Brawler count as one size category larger for the purpose of performing combat maneuvers, including Awesome Blow. Though this'd be a good ability regardless of the status of Awesome Blow.

-When you select a Combat Maneuver for Combat Maneuver Training, it actually gives you a relevant Feat. Considering all of the more powerful changes I've made already, I'd say you get the Improved one at 3rd and the Greater one at 7th or 11th.

-Make a new capstone based on the description of the class, especially the "Versatile, agile, and able to adapt to most enemy attacks" bit. Many things fit into this description, including but not limited to:

---Immunity to certain status effects, especially ones like Fatigue or Stunning.

---The ability to negate critical hits.

---Damage Reduction.

---All of the above.

---The ability to actually adapt to your enemy's attacks. Get hit with a fire attack? Next round you have Fire Resistance 20. Vampire slapping negative levels on you? After the first hit, you're immune (or perhaps have something like the Dhampir: you stop taking penalties, but still die when your negative levels equal your HD). Take slashing damage? Gain DR X/Bludgeoning or Piercing. So on and so forth. My favorite of the ideas. I'd actually put this one a bit earlier if I thought I could get away with it, but as it seems on par with most capstones, safer to just say it's a replacement. =)

---"Martial Maneuver Mastery" Feats learned now last for 24 hours, can learn up to 4, and each is triggered as a Free action.

-A revamped weapon proficiency list. Simplest would be to give him proficiency in all Close weapons. There's still a bunch of Eastern weapons in there, but it's more thematically appropriate for the Brawler to be proficient in close combat, "In your face" weaponry and nothing else, IMO. Also thematic, I think, is giving him Catch Off Guard as a Bonus Feat as well. Nothing says "Brawler" to me more than someone who grabs a liquor bottle of the counter and busts some heads with it.

-I'm actually not sure how I feel about Brawler Strike. Seems more an ability born of necessity than thematics, and it feels like giving him something that accomplishes the same results in a more mundane way would be better. Perhaps letting him use unarmed type weaponry (like the Cestus and the Brass Knuckles) with his Unarmed Strike damage, but halving the progression would be better. Then all the magic comes from the weapon enhancements bypassing the DR instead of some innate magical ability (when the stated goal is "No Mysticism") but still lets him deal solid damage. So he gets something like 1d6 at 3rd, 1d8 at 7th, 1d10 at 11th, 2d6 at 15th, and caps at 2d8 at 20th.

-Clean up the language of the Bonus Feats and Martial Maneuvers. Too wordy and too subjective. Though I see that as I was writing this, this one was confirmed to be something that will be worked on. =)

Any or all of these changes would be a great idea in my book.


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Brawler should get Sap proficiency... just sayin.

Also... I think that there needs to be some serious thought put into how a brawler is getting ramrodded into a 13 int and combat expertise.

A good two-birds-one-stone fix would be to change Martial Maneuvers to grant a suite of feats when used.

So for trip, you would get Imp. Trip
at 6th, you would get Imp. Trip and Greater Trip.
At 10th you would get Imp. Trip, Greater Trip and Tripping Strike.

You could do this for all manuevers, and also have suites for things like ranged combat (Point blank, precise, rapid), or defenses (Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude)

This way, you don't have to go book diving to find weird feats. You can avoid the oddity of varying durations, since the ability would be more limited, and you can allow the brawler to ignore the prerequisites for these feats, which would actually let them pick any maneuver to be great at for a short while when it is convenient or effective (which seems to be the goal of the ability)


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Brawler looks bad to me, overall, in part for the same reason Monks are bad and in part because fighters aren't particularly good, either. I think this class would be a good opportunity to fix the issues in both, instead of making them worse.

Monk's main problem is that it spends a lot of class features making up for a lack of weapons and armor, and none of these are actually as good as a Warrior wielding a weapon and wearing armor. Brawler, being directly compared to Fighter, gets this worse. At level 1, a Brawler has a weapon that does 1d6, 20/x2, while a fighter is generally packing 2d6, 19-20/x2 OR has 1d8, 19-20/x2 and a shield. His armor is probably Medium (becuase level 1), but a shield can help make up for the low AC there.

Jumping ahead to 4th level when the Brawler picks up +1 AC, the Brawler's AC is 10+Dex+4 (chain shirt) +1 AC bonus... Whereas the Fighter has 10+dex+9 (full plate) and potentially +2 shield. If he has a shield, he's swinging for 1d8, same as the Brawler, but has a higher threat range. If he's shieldless, he's going in for 2d6+strength and a half. Even if the Brawler is full-attacking and thus flurrying, the brawler's getting 2d6+twice strength, at a -2 penalty... So if he maxes strength and has gotten a magic item early, he's taking -2 to hit for +3 damage if and only if he can full attack. And he's still got half the critical threat range.

This doesn't get much better for the Brawler at higher levels. Magic swords are cheaper than amulets of natural armor, and the Brawler's AC never gets comparable to the Fighter's. So what does the Brawler get instead? Maneuver training is comparable to Weapon Training, except Weapon Training applies to a number of combat maneuvers already, and some fighter archetypes let you trade features for more.

Toe to toe with a fighter, the Brawler really has nothing going for him other than Martial Maneuvers letting him change his feats on the fly, but a fighter will be just getting feats in greater quantity. Good Reflex saves and +2 skill points per level are not enough to save this class...

...So what do I think it needs?

-If the class must have light armor and no shield, give it AC to compensate. This class doesn't reward high dexterity at ALL, so it feels weird that it penalizes armor. I suggest letting it add Wisdom to Armor class while wearing light or no armor, on top of the AC bonus, like Swordsage used to do. Alternatively, give it an active defense: Let it use its strength or con to AC as it actively blocks, parries, and knocks aside incoming blows.

-Two Weapon Fighting is a joke. It's a penalty to hit and only works on a full attack. The Brawler either needs Pounce or the ability to attack twice as a standard in order to make this reasonable. Alternatively: Let him go in with a full body attack (like a tackle) and treat his unarmed strikes as a two-handed weapon.

-I like maneuver training, but it needs more than just a bonus. Perhaps allow combining maneuvers (for example: let the Brawler get a free Trip attempt when he Bull Rushes, or if he successfulyl disarms someone let him get a free attack with the disarmed weapon as though he were proficient), or making maneuvers work as riders on successful attacks (like a wolf's trip or a tiger's grab.) Eidolons can get both of these abilities, I think a PC specializing in maneuvers should have the option as well.

-Damage reduction. If you're gonna tell me this guy is standing in front of the armored dudes in light armor and punching them in the face, I expect him to be tough as nails. And I don't mean dinky Barbarian DR, I mean like DR/- equal to half Brawler level.

I understand that you don't want to overshadow Monk too badly with this class, but keep in mind that Monk is really, really bad and try to compare it to fighter not in what abilities it says it gets, but what those abilities can actually do for it. Being able to punch a man for 1d8 damage is not a relevant ability when the alternative was cutting a man for 2d6.


I expect a Streetfighter Archetype for this class. Other than that it looks really fun. I like how it's more... fighty less ooh look what I can do it's shiny. I played the martial artist monk for a bit in a serpent's skull game and it was awesome. I was hoping for something like the martial artist but expanded and more or less got it. Some things ,like wording on martial manuevers, do need a bit of cleaning up but other than that I'm happy with it. Maybe a different capstone like double str mod, unleashing the full potential of the body in an all out attack.


Rynjin wrote:


-Drop Brawler's Flurry. It has Bonus Feats, if the player wants to make a TWFer boxer guy, let them choose to do so instead of making it out of the box.

I like this idea..Maybe something like how ranger can choose to go TWF style, and get bonus feats or not would work.

Maybe have his unarmed strikes do 1.5 str mod damage for the non TWF-path might work.

Eventually taking away the penalties from TWF make make them more even for damage.

Silver Crusade

Victor Zajic wrote:
Is there anything stopping a Brawler from taking shield proficiency, then flurrying with kicks or something and still wielding the shield?

Doesn't look like out, but you lose your ac bonus when holding a shield and it's pretty likely that brawler's flurry will be amended to have the same restriction in final.


I think some sort of ability to move and get more than one attack would be nice.

I also noticed a potential AC problem. Nobody that is expected to be on the front lines should be stuck with light armor. Before someone mentions rogues, they are secondary combatants.


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Ah, see, Fuse Styles (and being able to take Style Feats as Bonus Feats, of course, which should be possible) means that Dragon Style gives you what you seek anyway. =)

Silver Crusade

wraithstrike wrote:
I also noticed a potential AC problem. Nobody that is expected to be on the front lines should be stuck with light armor. Before someone mentions rogues, they are secondary combatants.

If you make a tanky brawler I'd think you could get enough ac by making dex your secondary (or even primary if you're serious about it) stat and spending a couple feats to boost it. Last year I had a sohei with 32 ac at level 10, I assume the brawler will play out similarly.


I also forgot to add the "knockout" having a penalty every time it is used is too much. It is no less dangerous than quivering palm, which can kill you, and it only last for 1d6 rounds..


Less Lawful, More Good wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I also noticed a potential AC problem. Nobody that is expected to be on the front lines should be stuck with light armor. Before someone mentions rogues, they are secondary combatants.
If you make a tanky brawler I'd think you could get enough ac by making dex your secondary (or even primary if you're serious about it) stat and spending a couple feats to boost it. Last year I had a sohei with 32 ac at level 10, I assume the brawler will play out similarly.

Does the Sohei get Wisdom to AC? I never made one so I dont remember.


wraithstrike wrote:
Less Lawful, More Good wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I also noticed a potential AC problem. Nobody that is expected to be on the front lines should be stuck with light armor. Before someone mentions rogues, they are secondary combatants.
If you make a tanky brawler I'd think you could get enough ac by making dex your secondary (or even primary if you're serious about it) stat and spending a couple feats to boost it. Last year I had a sohei with 32 ac at level 10, I assume the brawler will play out similarly.
Does the Sohei get Wisdom to AC? I never made one so I dont remember.

Depends on whether or not you wear armor. A recent FAQ clarified a Sohei can Flurry in armor but doesn't gain the Monk AC bonus. You still gain it if you don't wear armor.

Silver Crusade

"Tels"Depends on whether or not you wear armor. A recent FAQ clarified a Sohei can [url=http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9rag wrote:
Flurry in armor[/url] but doesn't gain the Monk AC bonus. You still gain it if you don't wear armor.

The ruling my group used at the time was that you didn't get your wis to ac, but did get the scaling bonus Monks get just for being Monks. That may be outdated for the sohei, but the brawler specifically does get a scaling bonus while wearing light armor.

Shadow Lodge

I think the skill points should also be dropped to 2+Int and the knowledge history dropped or replaced with something like knowledge local. These guys are supposed to be the hitters and punchers of the martial world and less the learned and erudite characters that the monks are and would work fine with the lower point score. Also the knowledge history thing doesn't really make much sense considering what we have been told about the class that the learning and understanding or history or even dungeoneering would make much sense as cornerstones of the classes education. On that though I could totally see them having knowledge local which gives them info on humanoids and knowledge of local laws and customs, which a streetfighter/wrestler/back alley brawler would probably have more use for in this profession.

Shadow Lodge

Also there needs to be more to separate it from the monk proper since as it stands now mechanically the whole "Monk without it's mysticism" thing basically means a monk with a lot of mechanics fixes and keeping its best abilities regardless of their association with ki powers (lookin at you flurry and brawlers strike).

Shadow Lodge

Also, like knockout and awesome blow but they should show up much earlier. Would love to shariuken or knockout punch people around mid way through my brawlers progression rather then near the end. It also creates a really distinctive fighting style for them with that image of a brawler knockout punching people through walls and stuff something that would get players excited to level up into that nice mid range of powers and then follow it up with more insane options as well as helping separate them from their monk origins.


doc the grey wrote:
I think the skill points should also be dropped to 2+Int and the knowledge history dropped or replaced with something like knowledge local. These guys are supposed to be the hitters and punchers of the martial world and less the learned and erudite characters that the monks are and would work fine with the lower point score. Also the knowledge history thing doesn't really make much sense considering what we have been told about the class that the learning and understanding or history or even dungeoneering would make much sense as cornerstones of the classes education. On that though I could totally see them having knowledge local which gives them info on humanoids and knowledge of local laws and customs, which a streetfighter/wrestler/back alley brawler would probably have more use for in this profession.

I dont think the hit points will be dropped because they wont be capable enough in combat to make up for only have 2+int skill points. I can understand the knowledge history since many martial artist I know do have knowledge of past events mostly from studying other martial arts, but the dungeoneering is lost on me.

The class description only says the dont care for monk's mysticism. It does not say they don't value education or knowledge. In other words they are not as spritual in nature.


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Why would you ever willingly inflict 2+Int skillpoints on someone?

Shame on you for even thinking of it.

Shadow Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
I think the skill points should also be dropped to 2+Int and the knowledge history dropped or replaced with something like knowledge local. These guys are supposed to be the hitters and punchers of the martial world and less the learned and erudite characters that the monks are and would work fine with the lower point score. Also the knowledge history thing doesn't really make much sense considering what we have been told about the class that the learning and understanding or history or even dungeoneering would make much sense as cornerstones of the classes education. On that though I could totally see them having knowledge local which gives them info on humanoids and knowledge of local laws and customs, which a streetfighter/wrestler/back alley brawler would probably have more use for in this profession.

I dont think the hit points will be dropped because they wont be capable enough in combat to make up for only have 2+int skill points. I can understand the knowledge history since many martial artist I know do have knowledge of past events mostly from studying other martial arts, but the dungeoneering is lost on me.

The class description only says the dont care for monk's mysticism. It does not say they don't value education or knowledge. In other words they are not as spritual in nature.

I didn't say to drop hp just skill points. As for the focus on history it feels off considering that the brawler seems to very much be modelling that classic archetype of the barroom brawler who beats the living crap out of you with his bare hands, the tools of his trade, or whatever is available. The brawler is like the rock in stand tall, wolverine (mostly) in X-men, leg breaker thugs, or maybe even Riddick; they don't think of going to school to understand the history of combat or the academia of it all, they are guys who have learned to fight with their bare hands or the tools of their job and realized they were really good at it.

Another thing I would love to see is that change to the weapons list to give us more proficiencies like that with brawlers getting brass knuckles, greatclubs (can anyone say baseballbat?), hatchets and handaxes, icepicks, and some carpentry hammers. Like the idea of playing a baseball bat wielding brawler who can also slap on some brass knuckles or grab a guy and bash his enemy through a table and then kill his associate with his own carpentry hammer would just be so awesome.

Now the argument could be made that this is also the Luchador/professional wrestler/Sumo type who has learned their skills through their training at a school for such skills but that knowledge could just as easily be represented by taking something like profession (wrestler) or knowledge local which has more of a focus on local customs what not which would be where knowledge of the local fighting styles would be most likely stored if not in something like the aforementioned Profession (wrestler).

Shadow Lodge

Rynjin wrote:

Why would you ever willingly inflict 2+Int skillpoints on someone?

Shame on you for even thinking of it.

Why not? For what reason would a Brawler NEED to consistently have 4+Int skill points outside of the optimization reasons? It's not a class that i think people will be running to for its wide variety of skills, this is the class you play when you want to make that dude over their to learn what the inside of his skull tastes like when you drive your fist through it and don't care about whether you learned it from a monastery holy man or from fighting tooth & nail on the nasty streets of the puddles in Absalom.

Scarab Sages

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To expand on the Street Fighter references, I'd like to see a Brawler ability that grants "fist weapons" like the Cestus, brass knuckles, punching dagger and Tekko-kagi (weapons you essentially wear around your hands) your Unarmed Strike damage die, but leave their crit profile alone. It will give some variation in weapons used, and it'd be a nice, cheap alternative to the Amulet of Might Fists.

If not that, how about an alternate Monk ability that either Monks or Brawlers can take that will allow it? It could replace an auto-grant like Stunning Fist (which means it wouldn't work with Archetypes that already replace Stunning Fist).

Silly thing: +2 Called Keen Adamantine Tekko-kagi screams Wolverine. Why use "Called?" Because it teleports them into your hand, so you can just say *snickt* and have them equipped. :D


Gotta say, I love this class.
Only a couple of concerns:
1. As has already been said, Awesome Blow. Granted, I love the idea of kicking someone 10' away, but not capstone material.
2. Another common one, Bonus feats. Figured I would give my 2 cents as to the wording. If, as someone up thread suggested, the wording is to prevent taking archery or mounted combat feats, among others, why not just have a list of feats it doesn't apply to? To save space, and a considerable amount of time, don't list them all out, but rather list whole chains. I.e. "The Brawler cannot select feats that have Mounted Combat, Vital Strike, or Dodge as prerequisites." (Obviously they could get Dodge or Vital Strike, I'm just drawing a blank as to the names of other feats that start chains, so they were used as placeholders)
3. Not really a concern, so much as a suggestion, but I think it would be cool for the brawler to select a Style (something akin to a bloodline) as opposed to bonus feats and/or maneuver training. Styles could include trained disciplines (Kung fu, karate, etc.) and maybe a few "Street Justice" kind of styles, that represent the character learning through having to fend for themselves on the streets, rather than formal training. These could include a thug-like style (pure offense), a dirty fighting style (support/maneuvers), or a scrappy survival style (defense).

All in all, easily one of my favorite of the new classes (or any class, for that matter), alongside the Swashbuckler and Bloodrager. I like all of them quite a bit, though.

Silver Crusade

Have to wonder if the wording for bonus feats is meant to restrict the use of inappropriate feats like Alec says, or to possibly allow the inclusion of feats that aren't currently classified as combat feats. Case in point, style feats would fit the criteria in the class' wording.

Silver Crusade

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doc the grey wrote:
Why not? For what reason would a Brawler NEED to consistently have 4+Int skill points outside of the optimization reasons?

I don't speak for anyone else, but personally I find 2+int skill points just too damn limiting for any player.


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doc the grey wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Why would you ever willingly inflict 2+Int skillpoints on someone?

Shame on you for even thinking of it.

Why not? For what reason would a Brawler NEED to consistently have 4+Int skill points outside of the optimization reasons? It's not a class that i think people will be running to for its wide variety of skills, this is the class you play when you want to make that dude over their to learn what the inside of his skull tastes like when you drive your fist through it and don't care about whether you learned it from a monastery holy man or from fighting tooth & nail on the nasty streets of the puddles in Absalom.

For what reason does a class need to be pigeonholed into only having something to do in combat when the addition of a couple of extra skill points adds to its usefulness, fun, but doesn't change its power level at all?

No class should be limited so hard. There's no reason for any class to not know a number of useful life skills.


Tbh, I forgot style feats weren't combat feats. So maybe have the wording be "The brawler may select any style or combat feat, except for X, Y, and Z, and feats that have X, Y, or Z as a prerequisite". Then you could have any thematically appropriate feats be available.


Style Feats ARE Combat Feats. But the Brawler doesn't get Combat Feats, he gets a nebulously defined set of Feats that affect maneuvers, defenses, or weapons.

Liberty's Edge

I feel like the bonus feats come in at awkward levels.

2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th...

All the Greater maneuver feats are available at BAB+6, meaning you just miss out on them and have to wait an extra level after a fighter could pick it up. Kind of lame for the supposed maneuver master. A couple of other maneuver-related feats come online at BAB+9, too, iirc - although this isn't as bad as the BAB+6 point because at least you get the level 9 feat. But not being able to pick up Greater maneuver feats until 7th really bites.


Oh, then just remove the "style or" part, as 99.9% of feats that affect attack, defenses, or weapons are probably combat feats anyway.
Or just let them pick any combat feat, for simplicity's sake, if nothing else.

Silver Crusade

Rynjin wrote:
Style Feats ARE Combat Feats. But the Brawler doesn't get Combat Feats, he gets a nebulously defined set of Feats that affect maneuvers, defenses, or weapons.

In the old ruling combat feats were specifically designated as such and fighters could only take feats from the 'combat feat' column as bonus feats. Style feats are a different designation. If I remember correctly the unarmed fighter archetype had a specific addendum that it could take style feats as bonus ones.


Please have a look at this appeal. I've posted it in a separate thread to not muddle the main brawler thread.

Silver Crusade

LoreKeeper wrote:
Please have a look at this appeal. I've posted it in a separate thread to not muddle the main brawler thread.

I don't know what the official ruling is but I'm pretty sure brawler levels already count as fighter levels for prereqs. As for the rest, it doesn't seem like it really adds anything to the class.


Less Lawful, More Good wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Style Feats ARE Combat Feats. But the Brawler doesn't get Combat Feats, he gets a nebulously defined set of Feats that affect maneuvers, defenses, or weapons.
In the old ruling combat feats were specifically designated as such and fighters could only take feats from the 'combat feat' column as bonus feats. Style feats are a different designation. If I remember correctly the unarmed fighter archetype had a specific addendum that it could take style feats as bonus ones.

Feats do not just have a single designation. Style feats are combat feats. They are also style feats.

Shadow Lodge

Rynjin wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Why would you ever willingly inflict 2+Int skillpoints on someone?

Shame on you for even thinking of it.

Why not? For what reason would a Brawler NEED to consistently have 4+Int skill points outside of the optimization reasons? It's not a class that i think people will be running to for its wide variety of skills, this is the class you play when you want to make that dude over their to learn what the inside of his skull tastes like when you drive your fist through it and don't care about whether you learned it from a monastery holy man or from fighting tooth & nail on the nasty streets of the puddles in Absalom.

For what reason does a class need to be pigeonholed into only having something to do in combat when the addition of a couple of extra skill points adds to its usefulness, fun, but doesn't change its power level at all?

No class should be limited so hard. There's no reason for any class to not know a number of useful life skills.

So would you prefer that all 2+Int skill point classes just be bumped up to 4+Int?

If so doesn't that just take away from some of the other classes as we move along by shrinking the gap between the amount of skill ranks various classes get or begin to step into the territory of other classes or archetypes that are more focused on being good at a wider range of skills and having a lot of points to do that with?


Less Lawful, More Good wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
Please have a look at this appeal. I've posted it in a separate thread to not muddle the main brawler thread.
I don't know what the official ruling is but I'm pretty sure brawler levels already count as fighter levels for prereqs. As for the rest, it doesn't seem like it really adds anything to the class.

I believe you're missing the key feature: brawlings skills (akin to rage powers and rogue talents) are an extensible class feature. I've provided a small sample to showcase possibilities, but the actual ACG would provide more - and future products such as Player Companions would be able to easily add more as well.


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doc the grey wrote:


So would you prefer that all 2+Int skill point classes just be bumped up to 4+Int?

Actually, yeah. I think 4+Int should be the minimum.

doc the grey wrote:
If so doesn't that just take away from some of the other classes as we move along by shrinking the gap between the amount of skill ranks various classes get or begin to step into the territory of other classes or archetypes that are more focused on being good at a wider range of skills and having a lot of points to do that with?

I don't think it takes away anything from a class if one of its minor features is slightly encroached upon.

As long as they don't make the mistake of hinging a class' function entirely on skills (here's lookin' at you, Rogue...), there's no reason why 4+Int characters step on the toes of 6 or 8+Int characters.

There's no real drawbacks in my mind, and the benefits enhance both the RP side of the game and the mechanical side.

If you want your character to be a Fighter with a twist or whatever, not having skill ranks can harm that concept. If your Fighter doesn't have the ranks to spare to put in Craft: Pottery because you wanted him to be a potter's apprentice, that sucks. And giving him those extra skill ranks doesn't hurt anything.

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