Well, I think my point is lost here. First I never worry about optimizing as that is not how I have fun. Second I would like to say that my issue is not that I can pick up other options with feats or maneuvers, my issue is that every Brawler is set to have "Brawlers Furry" and I am not one who enjoys two weapon fighting style, I recognize that I may be alone here but I just do not like being pigeonholed into a build and that is what "Brawlers Furry" makes me feel.You are free to not use it buddy. Its handy for what it is because it avoids prerequisites and lets us pump our strength, but feel free to just use your normal full attack. I showed you that you could still make a cool rocket punch build.
Plus it fits the One Two Punch boxer imagery in my head.
The Brawler has 5 real class features.
"Don't use 20% of your class if you don't like it" isn't really a good option.
Might as well play a different class. Maybe a Brawler... The Archetype.
Wanted to post my impressions from a playtest that happened tonight. We ran a party of four. 4th level. 25 point buy. Our party consisted of a Brawler, a Skald, a Bloodrager, and a Hunter. Thoughts on the Brawler:
-The Brawler seemed very powerful. I've played many Fighters and many Monks, and he blew them out of the water.
-The main defining trait of the Brawler was the Martial Maneuvers. This Brawler was designed with Maneuvers in mind, and it showed. Before the game, I printed out a list of potential feats that I could choose from, and, while not all of them were advisable (Weapon Finesse, given that I was a strength-based character) I had over 40 feats I could have chosen from. I liked the action economy of spending the move action, but it actually worked against Brawler's Flurry, as I only once performed a flurry. The rest of the time I was switching feats to something that was more useful.
-I think that having a smaller list of feats to choose from would bring it a bit more on par power level-wise, and still provide an interesting mechanic to play. Comparing this to the Hunter, who similarly could swap out Teamwork feats for himself and his animal companion: his didn't seem to cause him to be grossly overpowered: the Brawler did.
-The class was incredibly fun, and really had a good balance of flavor elements of fighter and monk without feeling too much like I was playing either.
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An oddity I noticed in Brawlers Flurry.
The Monks Flurry of bows text, emphasis mine
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
at 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
The Brawlers Flurry, emphasis mine
At 8th level, the brawler is treated as having the
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using
brawler’s f lurry. At 15th level, the brawler is treated as
having the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat when
using brawler’s flurry.
Now if you compare those levels to the monk class, you'll notice that those 'feats' are granted at the appropriate BAB for a monk to gain additional attacks (8th and 15th level) but on the Brawler they are granted several levels after appropriate BAB for 'feats'
Any chance these numbers were supposed to be 6th and 11th level?
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Brawler's already steal most of their features from the Monk, now you want to give him better versions of those features too?
Are you serious Tels? Because jokes like that need at least a smily face.
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Are you serious Tels? Because jokes like that need at least a smily face.
Let me just go ahead and state Monk is my favorite class and I hate the fact the Monk was essentially gutted to make a better martial artist.
And yes, that last statement was serious.
Are you serious Tels? Because jokes like that need at least a smily face.Let me just go ahead and state Monk is my favorite class and I hate the fact the Monk was essentially gutted to make a better martial artist.
And yes, that last statement was serious.
...
[Opens mouth to talk]
.......
[Closes mouth]
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Okay.
I'm going to very, very cautiously ask this with no sarcasm or derision whatsoever: what, specifically, is it about Monk that makes it your favorite class, and how have you ducked or negated its observed flaws?
Back on topic because we should be discussing Brawlers, not Monks. The main comparison points should be drawn between Brawlers and characters in its niche (full BAB martial classes)
This (points at quote) is a problem because every other 2 weapon fighting class will be getting those 'feats' at BAB specific level, but the Brawler wont. I don't believe the Brawler is anywhere near OP enough to have a reduced full attack when 2Wf compared to Rangers, Fighters, and Slayers.
An oddity I noticed in Brawlers Flurry.
The Monks Flurry of bows text, emphasis mine
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
at 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
The Brawlers Flurry, emphasis mine
At 8th level, the brawler is treated as having the
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using
brawler’s f lurry. At 15th level, the brawler is treated as
having the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat when
using brawler’s flurry.Now if you compare those levels to the monk class, you'll notice that those 'feats' are granted at the appropriate BAB for a monk to gain additional attacks (8th and 15th level) but on the Brawler they are granted several levels after appropriate BAB for 'feats'
Any chance these numbers were supposed to be 6th and 11th level?
Are you serious Tels? Because jokes like that need at least a smily face.Let me just go ahead and state Monk is my favorite class and I hate the fact the Monk was essentially gutted to make a better martial artist.
And yes, that last statement was serious.
...
[Opens mouth to talk]
.......
[Closes mouth]
...........
Okay.
I'm going to very, very cautiously ask this with no sarcasm or derision whatsoever: what, specifically, is it about Monk that makes it your favorite class, and how have you ducked or negated its observed flaws?
Well, first I should point out that the characters I've had the most fun with since I started playing RPGs ~10 years ago are Rogues and Monks. Not because they're OMG UBER DAMAGE powerful or anything, I just happen to have GMs that make characters with skills fun.
We also tend to run games on the lower end side of optimization, so being able to optimize a Rogue or a Monk puts them up to standards compared to other characters.
For instance, my longest played Character is a Ranger 16/Barbarian 1 from 3.5 and she has yet to receive, or purchase, any stat-booster items. In fact, up until 15th level, thanks to some choice spells, party buffs and good tactics, we've managed to make do with her only having a +1/+1 Orc double axe for a weapon. At 15th, we went up against some creatures called Steal Predators that have DR 20 and need, I believe a +3 Adamantine weapon to overcome it. We were fighting lots of them, so we were forced to upgrade her weapon. She refused to sell it, however, since it's, literally, the same weapon she's had since 3rd level (it was basically an inherited masterwork weapon).
Anyway, I've had more fun with the Monk and Rogue than any other class or character I've ever played.
Using the Rogue, I've done things like, at 5th level, taken on a group of ~40 2nd - 4th level characters, after the party blew up their base of operations. They fled into woods, where my Rogue went and played Jurrassic Park on them in the brush. One of my longest sessions to date.
That same character, has also done things like flipped off a balcony, and landed on two unsuspecting men that had invaded her guild house, taking them both out with daggers to the neck. The DM allowed the double attack, because I had the balls to willingly fall 40 ft. at 5th level to take out two guys, and then successfully intimidated the other 15 into fleeing.
Lots of fun with Rogues.
Same things with Monks. In my current Legacy of Fire campaign, I've got a Monk that spends more combat time in the air, than on the ground. Thanks to his obscene acrobatics score when jumping, he is capable of leaping around like something out of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and uses Falling Damage to augment his attacks which are being augmented with cold damage from a special magical weapon, and the feat Elemental Fist (he's a Monk of the Four Winds and gets more damage dice) for a kick that looks somewhat like this. He calls it his Comet Kick.
Anyway, I like the Monk because I like the mix of martial means, with mysticism and skills to make a fun character to play. I don't try and out DPR the DPR characters, I contribute my own way by using maneuvers and annoying tactics to force characters to attack me. Combine that with an obscene AC (I can get to ~36 AC at 8th level) and I have the makings of a fun character.
What does any of that have to do with the Brawler?
Nothing, but it is very related to brawlers that I am suggesting Brawlers get I2WF and G2WF added to Brawlers Flurry at full BAB appropriate levels as opposed to 3/4ths BAB appropriate levels.
Same things with Monks. In my current Legacy of Fire campaign, I've got a Monk that spends more combat time in the air, than on the ground. Thanks to his obscene acrobatics score when jumping, he is capable of leaping around like something out of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and uses Falling Damage to augment his attacks which are being augmented with cold damage from a special magical weapon, and the feat Elemental Fist (he's a Monk of the Four Winds and gets more damage dice) for a kick that looks somewhat like this. He calls it his Comet Kick.
Anyway, I like the Monk because I like the mix of martial means, with mysticism and skills to make a fun character to play. I don't try and out DPR the DPR characters, I contribute my own way by using maneuvers and annoying tactics to force characters to attack me. Combine that with an obscene AC (I can get to ~36 AC at 8th level) and I have the makings of a fun character.
Ah. I think I've hit upon our disconnect.
Lemme preface this: I am not intending to imply that there is anything wrong with the way you play. The only wrong way to play an RPG is if your method is A. injuring or harming someone or B. failing to let people have fun (and A is negotiable in the case of Combat Action Roleplaying. Heh. CARPs).
From the sound of things, you have a very rules-lite group, an extremely accommodating DM, an emphasis on humanoid enemies, and/or Yes. Again, there's nothing wrong with that! However, not everyone plays that way and for groups that place an emphasis on, say, tactical combat or who value system mastery Monk is a very bad class with numerous deep flaws that strike it all the way to the core. Brawler is taking some lengths to resolve those flaws though, it should be noted, not enough lengths. The good news is that your play style means that Monk cannot truly be 'replaced', though.
As far as this:
Nothing, but it is very related to brawlers that I am suggesting Brawlers get I2WF and G2WF added to Brawlers Flurry at full BAB appropriate levels as opposed to 3/4ths BAB appropriate levels.
I find myself in full agreement. Frankly I don't know why the Flurry Debacle is still in effect but if it's going to be throw the poor Brawler a bone. Guy's got it hard enough as it is.
Same things with Monks. In my current Legacy of Fire campaign, I've got a Monk that spends more combat time in the air, than on the ground. Thanks to his obscene acrobatics score when jumping, he is capable of leaping around like something out of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and uses Falling Damage to augment his attacks which are being augmented with cold damage from a special magical weapon, and the feat Elemental Fist (he's a Monk of the Four Winds and gets more damage dice) for a kick that looks somewhat like this. He calls it his Comet Kick.
Anyway, I like the Monk because I like the mix of martial means, with mysticism and skills to make a fun character to play. I don't try and out DPR the DPR characters, I contribute my own way by using maneuvers and annoying tactics to force characters to attack me. Combine that with an obscene AC (I can get to ~36 AC at 8th level) and I have the makings of a fun character.
Ah. I think I've hit upon our disconnect.
Lemme preface this: I am not intending to imply that there is anything wrong with the way you play. The only wrong way to play an RPG is if your method is A. injuring or harming someone or B. failing to let people have fun (and A is negotiable in the case of Combat Action Roleplaying. Heh. CARPs).
From the sound of things, you have a very rules-lite group, an extremely accommodating DM, an emphasis on humanoid enemies, and/or Yes. Again, there's nothing wrong with that! However, not everyone plays that way and for groups that place an emphasis on, say, tactical combat or who value system mastery Monk is a very bad class with numerous deep flaws that strike it all the way to the core. Brawler is taking some lengths to resolve those flaws though, it should be noted, not enough lengths. The good news is that your play style means that Monk cannot truly be 'replaced', though.
As far as this:
Nothing, but it is very related to brawlers that I am suggesting Brawlers get I2WF and G2WF...
Eh, my group isn't rules lite, so much as optimization lite. I know the rules very well, and I use them to enhance combat and story where needed. My GMs also turn to me for knowledge on the rules, and to make rulings in their own games if they are unclear on something. It's not that we're not playing by the rules, we're just not playing by PFS standards, as in, the GM still has total power.
And honestly? I'm the only person that has managed to play a Monk in my group and truly have fun with him. There have been 4 other Pathfinder Monk attempts, and 3 Third edition attempts, and I'm the only one who manages to have fun. Those other guys would prefer the Brawler over the Monk every day.
Also, while I haven't been that active recently, I'm one of the 'Monk Crowd' that is often campaigning for a stronger Monk, or better Monk options, or helping other players optimize their Monk, or reading over and analyzing Monk house rules etc.
==============================
As for the Brawler, I'd much rather see the Flurry be torn off him, not because I don't think it fits him, I just don't want to see all those Monk abilities on the Brawler. (Really bugs me they gave him Ki... I mean Brawler's Strike, though he's "not mystical")
I'd rather him have combat styles like the Ranger, or bonus feats like the Monk (much as I hate to say it).
When I think of Brawlers, I tend to think more of people like Die Hard movies, or Bane from Dark Knight Rises or Riddick. I'd rather see the Brawler be able to kill someone with a tea cup, than make a flurry of blows.
I think the Brawler is one of the Advanced Classes that should probably have less mixing of it's parent classes, and more new abilities.
For instance, possibly damage reduction, or natural armor. Let him develop thick skin from all his fights and brawls he's gotten in. This guy should have scars, and be damned proud of them.
I would want to see him dual-wield some hand-axes, and leap from a cliff, roaring at the blood bath that is about to happen.
I'd like to see the Brawler be take a punch from Fred the Fighter, laugh and say, "Hey, Susan... that tickled" before leaving Fred black and blue.
That's how I picture a Brawler. No holds barred, bare-bones ass kicker using brutal weapons and brutal tactics to win.
[Edit] I should mention, I think one of the Brawler's Abiltiies should be named 'Brutality' and inflict conditions like bleed damage or something, or ability damage.
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Wanted to post my impressions from a playtest that happened tonight. We ran a party of four. 4th level. 25 point buy. Our party consisted of a Brawler, a Skald, a Bloodrager, and a Hunter. Thoughts on the Brawler:
-The Brawler seemed very powerful. I've played many Fighters and many Monks, and he blew them out of the water.
-The main defining trait of the Brawler was the Martial Maneuvers. This Brawler was designed with Maneuvers in mind, and it showed. Before the game, I printed out a list of potential feats that I could choose from, and, while not all of them were advisable (Weapon Finesse, given that I was a strength-based character) I had over 40 feats I could have chosen from. I liked the action economy of spending the move action, but it actually worked against Brawler's Flurry, as I only once performed a flurry. The rest of the time I was switching feats to something that was more useful.
-I think that having a smaller list of feats to choose from would bring it a bit more on par power level-wise, and still provide an interesting mechanic to play. Comparing this to the Hunter, who similarly could swap out Teamwork feats for himself and his animal companion: his didn't seem to cause him to be grossly overpowered: the Brawler did.
-The class was incredibly fun, and really had a good balance of flavor elements of fighter and monk without feeling too much like I was playing either.
Exactly how did you have encounters? At level 4 the brawler can use martial maneuvers twice a day. How did you end up with one round of flurrying and lots of rounds spent changing feats?
@Discussion between Tels, Insain Dragon and Prince of Knives:
I don't think the brawler needs earlier flurry progression to match his BAB progression; the brawler already has a lot of significant advantages that grant him good DPR (specifically the ability to take all the Focus and Specialization feats, as well as the brawling armor property). PS, monks are my favorite class too.
The brawler is added relatively late in the ACG development - or at least has received relatively little development attention; as compared to say the swashbuckler, who I think is quite brilliant (albeit overpowered). That means there is a lot of room for discussion on the brawler.
The most prominent points that should be looked at, in my opinion:
1. Not limit design to flurry - perhaps a solution here is similar to ranger combat paths; more ways to play the class. It could be argued that archetypes can fill this requirement, but I think the class benefits more from having it in the core design.
2. Emphasis on brawling, i.e. improvised and close-weapons - this came up from several people, and has also received some positive resonance from the developers (see updated first post in thread)
3. Unarmored brawling - a lot of the interest in a brawler is having a form of combat-orientated monk. That means that some brawlers at least would like to be no-weapons and no-armor. The current class design for the brawler is exceedingly unfriendly to unarmored brawlers as they lose out on the damage potential of brawling armor. Also the middling AC of the armored brawler drops to untenable AC on the unarmored brawler. (Perhaps as an easy fix just double the AC Bonus class feature when not wearing armor to address the last part.)
4. Greater diversity - I think the best design decisions are in classes such as rogue, barbarian, investigator: rogue talents, rage powers, and so forth are brilliant and allow key class tropes to be exposed to the class without forcing it into every character. I would really like to see such a feature incorporated on brawlers. The "brawler's flurry" could be rolled into such a class option by exposing the appropriate TWF feats at the appropriate levels.
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Problem is Dragon Ferocity requires stunning fist, which in turn requires a Wisdom of 13. I normally just Dip monk to get it but that's out of the question now.
Damn, how did I miss that?
I move "Needs Fuse Styles and/or Style Feats as Bonus Feats" from the SHOULD category to the NEEDS category, because Dragon Ferocity is the ONE thing that makes unarmed strikes even competitive in damage, and not being able to get it before 11th level is brutal.
Uh...unarmed strikes are getting a base bonus with this class, which now is a full BaB class.
So asking them to have a 13 wisdom sounds completely reasonable.
Problem is Dragon Ferocity requires stunning fist, which in turn requires a Wisdom of 13. I normally just Dip monk to get it but that's out of the question now.
Damn, how did I miss that?
I move "Needs Fuse Styles and/or Style Feats as Bonus Feats" from the SHOULD category to the NEEDS category, because Dragon Ferocity is the ONE thing that makes unarmed strikes even competitive in damage, and not being able to get it before 11th level is brutal.
Uh...unarmed strikes are getting a base bonus with this class, which now is a full BaB class.
So asking them to have a 13 wisdom sounds completely reasonable.
13 Wisdom isn't an issue (building a character with no good Will progression with less than 12 Wis is a no-no in my book, 13 isn't much of a stretch), it's the BaB +8 bit. So you can't get Stunning Fist before 8th/9th, which means you can't have Dragon Ferocity until 9th/11th.
Far too late in the game, at least in my opinion. Should be something that kicks on at 7th at the latest, earlier if possible.
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Problem is Dragon Ferocity requires stunning fist, which in turn requires a Wisdom of 13. I normally just Dip monk to get it but that's out of the question now.
Damn, how did I miss that?
I move "Needs Fuse Styles and/or Style Feats as Bonus Feats" from the SHOULD category to the NEEDS category, because Dragon Ferocity is the ONE thing that makes unarmed strikes even competitive in damage, and not being able to get it before 11th level is brutal.
Uh...unarmed strikes are getting a base bonus with this class, which now is a full BaB class.
So asking them to have a 13 wisdom sounds completely reasonable.
13 Wisdom isn't an issue (building a character with no good Will progression with less than 12 Wis is a no-no in my book, 13 isn't much of a stretch), it's the BaB +8 bit. So you can't get Stunning Fist before 8th/9th, which means you can't have Dragon Ferocity until 9th/11th.
Far too late in the game, at least in my opinion. Should be something that kicks on at 7th at the latest, earlier if possible.
Considering you get Weapon Specialization (which monk's don't) at 4th and you are full BaB I don't think it is a problem. Just a monk advantage.
YMMV.
Ehhhh, I disagree.
Dragon Ferocity in the long run is a lot more damage. It's half your Str to all your hits (likely to be at least +3 extra by the time the Brawler can get it currently), but more importantly it's what lets you qualify for the big Power Attack boost. That's where most of your damage comes from as a Str based character, and the difference between that +4 and +6, or +6 and +9 is enormous on top of the other benefit.
I guess it's not entirely necessary if you throw Brawling armor into the mix (something like +4 damage vs +6), but I don't like relying on gear for damage at a base level, and to be honest I just REALLY like Fuse Styles and would put it on every class if I could so I could make badass Unarmed Snake/Dragon versions of every class (Inquisitor of Irori? Yes pleaseeeeeee), but I also think the ability really fits this class.
And Brawling Armor isn't unavailable to a Monk/Brawler (Fighter) multiclass, which takes that 2 point lead and turns it into a double damage boost.
IMO if a class is going to be a Fighter/Monk hybrid it better be at least as good as a Fighter/Monk multiclass, and I'm just not seein' it currently.
Exactly how did you have encounters? At level 4 the brawler can use martial maneuvers twice a day. How did you end up with one round of flurrying and lots of rounds spent changing feats?
Alright. We actually completely missed that text. I feel dumb.
I have one pre-made, but I'd need to heavily modify it because gear is wonky (all of the "Big 6" items were banned beside Armor/Weapons in exchange for a scaling boost to AC and saves, and not attributes).
I'll post this as the alias so you can have a look at the Feat progression and such though, if you like. The damage output should be correct, there was no scaling bonus to-hit or damage, though his Str is lower than it would be due to the obvious (lack of stat boosting items), so that lowers it a smidge.
Ignore the skills, that's due to another houserule that gives Fighters 4+Int skills.
I'm going to bed. If it's not enough for you to work off of I can fix/de-houserule it tomorrow.
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For simplicity I'll keep and as much else as possible the same (moving a point from Dex to Wis. So this is quick and dirty, we can clean it up together.
Str: 20
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 13
Cha: 7
Feats
1)Weapon Focus Unarmed
2) (Brawler) Power attack
3) Iron Will
4) Weapon Specialization
5) Furious Focus
5(Brawler)) Bleed Attack
7) Toughness
8) Stunning fist
9) Greater Weapon Focus
11)Dragon Style
11(Brawler Bonus) Dragon Ferocity
13)Greater Weapon Specialization
AC +3
Weapon training and gloves of dualing are the gap I think. I'm at +25 doing 2d6 + 16 (+1d4 bleed).
If I swap out your gloves for boots of speed and I think I got you at that point.
Ehhhh, I disagree.
Dragon Ferocity in the long run is a lot more damage. It's half your Str to all your hits (likely to be at least +3 extra by the time the Brawler can get it currently), but more importantly it's what lets you qualify for the big Power Attack boost. That's where most of your damage comes from as a Str based character, and the difference between that +4 and +6, or +6 and +9 is enormous on top of the other benefit.
Unless there is a ruling I'm not aware of, that does not work. Just because you have 1.5 Str bonus on your unarmed strikes, doesn't mean they are two-handed weapons, and as such don't get the increased Power Attack bonus.
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Ehhhh, I disagree.
Dragon Ferocity in the long run is a lot more damage. It's half your Str to all your hits (likely to be at least +3 extra by the time the Brawler can get it currently), but more importantly it's what lets you qualify for the big Power Attack boost. That's where most of your damage comes from as a Str based character, and the difference between that +4 and +6, or +6 and +9 is enormous on top of the other benefit.
Unless there is a ruling I'm not aware of, that does not work. Just because you have 1.5 Str bonus on your unarmed strikes, doesn't mean they are two-handed weapons, and as such don't get the increased Power Attack bonus.
It's a grey area, since unarmed aren't natural attacks.
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Female human brawler 11
CE medium humanoid
Init +9; Senses Perception -1
-=DEFENSE=-
AC 29, touch 23, flat 19
HP 136
Fort 13; Ref 16; Will 4
-=OFFENSE=-
Speed 30ft
Melee unarmed attack +22/+17/+12 (1d10+5 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Melee brawler's flurry +20/+20/+15/+15/+10 (1d10+5 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
wounding, 2d6 boar style, 1d10 two-weapon rend, 1d6 boar shred bleed
-=OTHER=-
Str 10, Dex 24, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8
BAB +11; CMB +20 (finessable); CMD 34
Feats weapon finesse, toughness, weapon focus, boar style, dodge, weapon specialization, boar ferocity, greater wapon focus, boar shred, double-strike, two-weapon rend
Traits quain martial artist, reactionary
Favored class brawler
Favored bonus 11 hit points
Languages common, tien
Brawler abilities martial maneuvers 5/day; brawler's flurry (two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting); maneuver training (+3 disarm, +2 dirty trick, +1 trip); AC bonus +2; brawler strike (magic, cold iron, silver)
Skills
Trained acrobatics 20(10); climb 8(5); intimidate 12(10); 20(10) stealth; swim 8(5);
Untrained appraise 0; bluff 0; diplomacy 0; intimidate 0;
Wealth 1000ish gp
* +2 brawling mithril chainshirt (10100)
* +2 cloak of resistance (4000)
* +4 belt of dexterity (16000)
* +2 ring of protection (8000)
* wounding amulet of mighty fists (16000)
* dusty rose prism ioun stone (5000)
*
Martial Maneuvers
Ruby Spring is not the brightest or gifted with common sense, but she has a brutal mean streak and a penchant for aggravating wounds. Even so, when she realizes that she's in for a desperate encounter, she enables the full Crane Style feat tree to give her an overwhelming defense from behind which she pick-off her foes.
- Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte
- Piranha Strike
- Step Up, Following Step, Step-up and Strike
- Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, [...]
Expected DPR
Ruby Spring doesn't rely on brute or agile damage to kill, instead her foes are torn apart and bleed out; if she went with an agile amulet of mighty fists instead she would significantly increase her damage per round, at the cost of stacking bleed damage.
Basic flurry damage vs AC 25: = 36.3825
Expected number of hits vs AC 25: = 3.3
Bonus damage from shred and rend: 12.5
Total expected direct damage = 49
Expected bleed damage after 1 round: = 6.5
Expected bleed damage after 5 rounds: 18.5
Varying AC
Ruby Spring has good, albeit not amazing AC for her level. Coupled with a large hitpoint pool she has good staying power. In fights against dangerous enemies that can reliably hit her, she uses Crane Style to have a layered defense that penalizes her damage output, but keeps her safe from direct harm. If she finds a source of natural armor she can consider herself well-equipped to face a very dangerous foe (perhaps a potion of barkskin).
Gameplay Limitation
Similar to nVali, Ruby Spring is mostly self-sufficient with her feats, and typically uses martial maneuvers to solve particular problems (usually survivability).
Builds
Berkley "The Hammer" Naveel large feat potential
Mikiko Konda Snake Style toolbox build
nVali Letoba ignores flurries entirely
Ruby Spring bleeds and shreds enemies
It's a grey area, since unarmed aren't natural attacks.Ehhhh, I disagree.
Dragon Ferocity in the long run is a lot more damage. It's half your Str to all your hits (likely to be at least +3 extra by the time the Brawler can get it currently), but more importantly it's what lets you qualify for the big Power Attack boost. That's where most of your damage comes from as a Str based character, and the difference between that +4 and +6, or +6 and +9 is enormous on top of the other benefit.
Unless there is a ruling I'm not aware of, that does not work. Just because you have 1.5 Str bonus on your unarmed strikes, doesn't mean they are two-handed weapons, and as such don't get the increased Power Attack bonus.
Unarmed strikes are definitely not two-handed weapons, irrespective of the Str bonus applied to damage. And two-handed-ness is the condition on which Power Attack scales up.
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Brawler's already steal most of their features from the Monk, now you want to give him better versions of those features too?THe monk is a bad class, that is bad enough. It would be terrible if the monk mere existence dragged down the new classes.
I disagree; it is not a bad class, it is a challenging class. Which is why I like it. The defensive powers of the monk are really good, of the best in the game.
Eh, my group isn't rules lite, so much as optimization lite.
If you're adding falling damage to your attacks without some feat i'm aware of, you're VERY rules light.
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Brawler's already steal most of their features from the Monk, now you want to give him better versions of those features too?THe monk is a bad class, that is bad enough. It would be terrible if the monk mere existence dragged down the new classes.
Way to be helpful Nicos...
Come on, you are better than that. I expect that from others, but not you.
Brawler's already steal most of their features from the Monk, now you want to give him better versions of those features too?THe monk is a bad class, that is bad enough. It would be terrible if the monk mere existence dragged down the new classes.Way to be helpful Nicos...
Come on, you are better than that. I expect that from others, but not you.
It's not inaccurate, though. Monk's got deep flaws - its abilities contain vicious action conflicts, many of its features are way too minor for their level, it lags badly in accuracy, and it can't pay the complexity tax needed to participate in levels 7-20. It has severe trouble fighting enemies larger than it is (size bonuses to CMD hurt), handling creatures with reach, flight, incorporeality, or teleportation, no meaningful method of interacting with the game world outside of 'kill things' and 'roll a skill check' (and has a rather limited skill list too), etc, so forth.
Base monk inherited almost all of the design problems of WotC's monk and then The Flurry Debacle happened. For some reason the design team has seen fit to nerf monk repeatedly, which also means that a prospective monk player has to deal with hostile errata.
Certainly PF has some gems for monk (Hungry Ghost!) but outside of a few archetypes and a more friendly Amulet of Mighty Fists he's hurting pretty badly and it's hard to build a monk that feels capable of taking on heroic challenges.
Can we please not turn this into yet another monk thread...
Fair enough, though it is worth discussing what problems Brawler has inherited from its parent class. Is Brawler as MAD as the Monk is? Can it handle complexity tax and if not how much of its wealth does it need to keep up? What's Brawler's role?
...Actually, let's talk that last one. What does a Brawler do in a party of, oh, four people? Where does he fit?
Power attack also scales up if applied to a primary natural attack. A primary natural attack is defined as an attack that receives 1.5x Str. Since monks and brawlers have their unarmed attacks treated as natural attacks(regardless of my disagreement with ciretose about how it works otherwise), Dragon Ferocity scales up the power attack bonus for unarmed strikes.It's a grey area, since unarmed aren't natural attacks.Ehhhh, I disagree.
Dragon Ferocity in the long run is a lot more damage. It's half your Str to all your hits (likely to be at least +3 extra by the time the Brawler can get it currently), but more importantly it's what lets you qualify for the big Power Attack boost. That's where most of your damage comes from as a Str based character, and the difference between that +4 and +6, or +6 and +9 is enormous on top of the other benefit.
Unless there is a ruling I'm not aware of, that does not work. Just because you have 1.5 Str bonus on your unarmed strikes, doesn't mean they are two-handed weapons, and as such don't get the increased Power Attack bonus.
Unarmed strikes are definitely not two-handed weapons, irrespective of the Str bonus applied to damage. And two-handed-ness is the condition on which Power Attack scales up.
That isn't right. Primary natural attacks are not defined as an attack that adds 1.5x Str to damage. That is a feature of primary natural attacks. Primary natural attacks are defined by type (bite is primary, hoof secondary, etc) as detailed in the table (see natural attacks). Even if you're unarmed strikes count as natural weapons and get a 1.5x Str bonus to damage, they still do not qualify for higher Power Attack damage scaling.
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Can we please not turn this into yet another monk thread...Fair enough, though it is worth discussing what problems Brawler has inherited from its parent class. Is Brawler as MAD as the Monk is? Can it handle complexity tax and if not how much of its wealth does it need to keep up? What's Brawler's role?
...Actually, let's talk that last one. What does a Brawler do in a party of, oh, four people? Where does he fit?
It seems clear to me the Brawler is a front line melee class. Comparisons to Fighter and Barbarian are fair, keeping in mind that the maneuver bonus is a large part of what it does.
Right now it looks like it does solid damage and has pretty good defense.
The "problems" of the monk are a separate issue for a separate thread.
The questions for me are.
1. Is this a class that people will want to play?
2. Is it over powered relative to other frontline melee classes?
3. Is it under powered relative to other frontline melee classes?
The few builds I've seen make it seem pretty much where it should me. The only real change I would make is changing it to close weapon group and moving the bonus feats to even numbers.
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Natural attacks only get 1.5x str when they are the only natural attack the creature has. So a wolf with a single bite or a snake will get 1.5x Str because they don't get any other attack. Primary vs. Secondary has to do with whether its normal attack roll and damage or -5 and 1/2 str.
Dragon ferocity doesn't change anything it does not make your unarmed strikes do 1.5x Str it adds bonus damage = to 1/2 Str mod. Dragon Style changes the first unarmed strike in a round to 1.5 but the comination doesn't become 2x str mod for the first strike and 1.5 for the succeeding it becomes 1.5 Str + 1/2 str for the first and 1.0 + 1/2 str for the succeeding.
Dragon Ferocity:
While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus.
This has an interesting addition when you have a Str 20 character as the first attack would add +9 (1.5 str is 7, + 1/2 str is 2) and not +10.
Okay.. heres the thing.. take out your optimization and your theory crafting for a minute and remember this game also has a theme and a series of associated mental images with it, and it should be obvious by now that Paizo gives these images as much priority in design space as the maths. If a guy doesn't have TWF hes is <barring something odd> wielding 1 weapon which he uses to repeatedly whack his foe. The brawler is meant <From design not from what number crunching says is better.> to hit things unarmed. some unarmed styles might limit you to hand strikes.. some might remove most but kicks but none of them have you repeatedly hitting the guy with the same limb over and over and the idea of such is even ridiculed in media. <If anyone remembers badly animated man points to you.> I put forth that you cannot due to the general imagery associations of the game make an unarmed fighter that does not in some way have a flurry type ability.
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I think the brawler is supposed to stand in for/replace the fighter in a party of four. They still have OBFC(Obsessive Bonus Feat Complexion :]) and do damage quite nicely, while having more skills. And replacing the really stupid high AC that fighters can get and the weapon training gloves of dueling fighters get makes them have less damage than the "king" of damage(fighter). It also gives fun flavor and different fighting style then "I swing my Nodachi/Falchion/Earthbreaker at the monster".
P.S.I'm in the Monk=Favorite class group.
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IS it wrong for me to see this as a superhero style pounder? I love it. But I don't understand how the knock back ability could ramp up though every 5 levels? How would a class that could that could knock back a an enemy 5' feet at 5th, 10' and 10th etc. be over powered. Did see why you had to wait all the to 20th to get a "basic strong man power". I can play Juggernaut now. Awesome
Okay.. heres the thing.. take out your optimization and your theory crafting for a minute and remember this game also has a theme and a series of associated mental images with it, and it should be obvious by now that Paizo gives these images as much priority in design space as the maths. If a guy doesn't have TWF hes is <barring something odd> wielding 1 weapon which he uses to repeatedly whack his foe. The brawler is meant <From design not from what number crunching says is better.> to hit things unarmed. some unarmed styles might limit you to hand strikes.. some might remove most but kicks but none of them have you repeatedly hitting the guy with the same limb over and over and the idea of such is even ridiculed in media. <If anyone remembers badly animated man points to you.> I put forth that you cannot due to the general imagery associations of the game make an unarmed fighter that does not in some way have a flurry type ability.
Luis Armstrong would like to have a word with you.