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What about being pounded in the head leads you to get more skill points per level than a wizard?
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What about being pounded in the head leads you to get more skill points per level than a wizard?
It's a sad, sad Wizard that has less skill points than a guy with no reason to pump his Intelligence.
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So would you prefer that all 2+Int skill point classes just be bumped up to 4+Int?
Actually, yeah. I think 4+Int should be the minimum.
If so doesn't that just take away from some of the other classes as we move along by shrinking the gap between the amount of skill ranks various classes get or begin to step into the territory of other classes or archetypes that are more focused on being good at a wider range of skills and having a lot of points to do that with?I don't think it takes away anything from a class if one of its minor features is slightly encroached upon.
As long as they don't make the mistake of hinging a class' function entirely on skills (here's lookin' at you, Rogue...), there's no reason why 4+Int characters step on the toes of 6 or 8+Int characters.
There's no real drawbacks in my mind, and the benefits enhance both the RP side of the game and the mechanical side.
If you want your character to be a Fighter with a twist or whatever, not having skill ranks can harm that concept. If your Fighter doesn't have the ranks to spare to put in Craft: Pottery because you wanted him to be a potter's apprentice, that sucks. And giving him those extra skill ranks doesn't hurt anything.
See I like it as a way to differentiate classes and though I agree with you on the rogue thing I find that most of the classes (Save the Cleric) have more then enough skill points to get what they need to get especially by the mid game. This is compounded by how many easy ways there are to get skill points and get decent bonuses with the class skill bonus and the favored bonus easily giving you the few errant points you usually need for those unique skills that your fighter might need without harming their other functions. I mean looking at the brawler the only 2 essential skills you might want to keep maxed are Acrobatics and Perception which leaves you with that free favored point to drop into whatever errant skill you would like to invest in for your brawler assuming you are playing a non human and only have a 10 or ll Int.
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Yes, and keeping those essential skills maxed means you need to use your FCB to get any other skills, many of which are necessary for you to do anything useful outside of combat or to have any sort of well rounded character.
I don't think it's a flaw in the class that my Human Brawler can have Sense Motive, Kn. Religion, Kn. Dunegeoneering, and Survival in addition to Acrobatics and Perception.
Skills are nice to have, and there's no point in limiting them. "Essential skills" isn't the point, it's having essential skills and still having something interesting that's the point.
2+Int classes (that aren't Int casters) baffle me by their very existence. It results in things like a Fighter who can't swim or climb, can't survive in the wilderness for any length of time, doesn't know jack s&!+ about any location, creature, or event besides the most basic pre-school level knowledge, and has NO other marketable skills besides "I can see stuff and balance okay while I swing my sword".
One wonders how they even function.
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Yes, and keeping those essential skills maxed means you need to use your FCB to get any other skills, many of which are necessary for you to do anything useful outside of combat or to have any sort of well rounded character.
I don't think it's a flaw in the class that my Human Brawler can have Sense Motive, Kn. Religion, Kn. Dunegeoneering, and Survival in addition to Acrobatics and Perception.
Skills are nice to have, and there's no point in limiting them. "Essential skills" isn't the point, it's having essential skills and still having something interesting that's the point.
2+Int classes (that aren't Int casters) baffle me by their very existence. It results in things like a Fighter who can't swim or climb, can't survive in the wilderness for any length of time, doesn't know jack s%&@ about any location, creature, or event besides the most basic pre-school level knowledge, and has NO other marketable skills besides "I can see stuff and balance okay while I swing my sword".
One wonders how they even function.
If Gary Gygax was still around, he would happily tell you how Fighters can function without specialized expertise in swimming, climbing, basket-weaving and calculus.
You wouldn't like the answer, I think.
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Yes, and keeping those essential skills maxed means you need to use your FCB to get any other skills, many of which are necessary for you to do anything useful outside of combat or to have any sort of well rounded character.
I don't think it's a flaw in the class that my Human Brawler can have Sense Motive, Kn. Religion, Kn. Dunegeoneering, and Survival in addition to Acrobatics and Perception.
Skills are nice to have, and there's no point in limiting them. "Essential skills" isn't the point, it's having essential skills and still having something interesting that's the point.
2+Int classes (that aren't Int casters) baffle me by their very existence. It results in things like a Fighter who can't swim or climb, can't survive in the wilderness for any length of time, doesn't know jack s$%# about any location, creature, or event besides the most basic pre-school level knowledge, and has NO other marketable skills besides "I can see stuff and balance okay while I swing my sword".
One wonders how they even function.
But that's not the case at all considering that many of the skills you mentioned above are skills the fighter can and is often already pretty good at without dropping a point into by the very nature of their build (Swim & Climb) and are things that any class can do untrained. Basically the fighter comes with plenty of juice to already do most of the skills you mentioned very well without needing to invest a point in them so you are left to invest in those skills that either require a point to use or are things they aren't really good at usually like Cha based skills.
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If Gary Gygax was still around, he would happily tell you how Fighters can function without specialized expertise in swimming, climbing, basket-weaving and calculus.
You wouldn't like the answer, I think.
Thankfully I'm not bound by the design philosophies of a dead man who created a game with little resemblance to what it has evolved into, or I would be mightily stung by this.
But that's not the case at all considering that many of the skills you mentioned above are skills the fighter can and is often already pretty good at without dropping a point into by the very nature of their build (Swim & Climb) and are things that any class can do untrained. Basically the fighter comes with plenty of juice to already do most of the skills you mentioned very well without needing to invest a point in them so you are left to invest in those skills that either require a point to use or are things they aren't really good at usually like Cha based skills.
Most? I mentioned at least 8 skills there, pointing out two he can do okay (assuming he's a Str based Fighter and not an archer or Finesse/Dervish Dance fighter...) doesn't really invalidate my point there.
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Yes, and keeping those essential skills maxed means you need to use your FCB to get any other skills, many of which are necessary for you to do anything useful outside of combat or to have any sort of well rounded character.
I don't think it's a flaw in the class that my Human Brawler can have Sense Motive, Kn. Religion, Kn. Dunegeoneering, and Survival in addition to Acrobatics and Perception.
Skills are nice to have, and there's no point in limiting them. "Essential skills" isn't the point, it's having essential skills and still having something interesting that's the point.
2+Int classes (that aren't Int casters) baffle me by their very existence. It results in things like a Fighter who can't swim or climb, can't survive in the wilderness for any length of time, doesn't know jack s!$$ about any location, creature, or event besides the most basic pre-school level knowledge, and has NO other marketable skills besides "I can see stuff and balance okay while I swing my sword".
One wonders how they even function.
They did give the brawler perception which a fighter(trained soldier) does not have but a commoner does..That still annoys me. If the commoner has perception then everyone should have perception...<ends unrelated rant> :)
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What about being pounded in the head leads you to get more skill points per level than a wizard?It's a sad, sad Wizard that has less skill points than a guy with no reason to pump his Intelligence.Every Wizard starts with 20 Int, so he gets 7 skill points right away.
He gets those skills because of his int, not the class.
Again, what about being hit in the head= more training for skill points? This isn't a tactician, a noble, a general, or an officer and a gentleman. This is not the very model of a modern major general. This is someone running up to monsters throwing them in a headlock and giving them a noogie.
So thematically, besides "i want them", how does that lend itself to more skill points?
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I'm not sure the Knowledge (dungeoneering) skill makes much sense, either.
"Remember last week when you tried to put that ooze in a bear hug?
"Yeah...
"And it ate your armor?
"Yeah.. and?
"And gave you that funny rash that Aidband wouldn't take off you because remove disease is a touch spell?
"Yeah?
"What color was it?
"the same color as the one I'm bear hugging no..awwwww"
presumably they get acquainted with the digestive tracts of many an underground beastie.
But that's not the case at all considering that many of the skills you mentioned above are skills the fighter can and is often already pretty good at without dropping a point into by the very nature of their build (Swim & Climb) and are things that any class can do untrained. Basically the fighter comes with plenty of juice to already do most of the skills you mentioned very well without needing to invest a point in them so you are left to invest in those skills that either require a point to use or are things they aren't really good at usually like Cha based skills.Yes, and keeping those essential skills maxed means you need to use your FCB to get any other skills, many of which are necessary for you to do anything useful outside of combat or to have any sort of well rounded character.
I don't think it's a flaw in the class that my Human Brawler can have Sense Motive, Kn. Religion, Kn. Dunegeoneering, and Survival in addition to Acrobatics and Perception.
Skills are nice to have, and there's no point in limiting them. "Essential skills" isn't the point, it's having essential skills and still having something interesting that's the point.
2+Int classes (that aren't Int casters) baffle me by their very existence. It results in things like a Fighter who can't swim or climb, can't survive in the wilderness for any length of time, doesn't know jack s$%# about any location, creature, or event besides the most basic pre-school level knowledge, and has NO other marketable skills besides "I can see stuff and balance okay while I swing my sword".
One wonders how they even function.
A fighter should be able to climb, swim, have some knowledge of creatures, and don't even get me started on the lack of perception as a class skill. Even commoners get that, and he was not born as a baby fighter, and every 0HD creature has a class, so he had to be commoner as a kid. AP's support this. Somehow he ran off to fighter school and became less observant? O.o
edit:I see I already mentioned the perception thing. I thought I did not post that, but it is there now. :)
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It really should just have proficiency with the close weapon group. It has no business having the shuriken at all (close combat group has wushu dart for ranged attack potential anyway)
Make Brawler's flurry an option not baked in or just remove it full stop, if people want to two weapon fight they'll take TWF and double slice.
Give more support for Style Feats.
The two knowledge skills are wonky, though (History) because it includes wars makes more sense than Dungeoneering. Local would be a far better fit.
Brawler Strike isn't thematic if they're getting rid of the 'mysticism' aspect. Instead an option to apply half your unarmed strike damage through weapons of the close combat group will allow them to overcome DR.
Clarity on whether or not they count as monks/fighters for the purposes of feats would be great. Can they get weapon specialisation?
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Style Feats ARE Combat Feats. But the Brawler doesn't get Combat Feats, he gets a nebulously defined set of Feats that affect maneuvers, defenses, or weapons.In the old ruling combat feats were specifically designated as such and fighters could only take feats from the 'combat feat' column as bonus feats. Style feats are a different designation. If I remember correctly the unarmed fighter archetype had a specific addendum that it could take style feats as bonus ones.Feats do not just have a single designation. Style feats are combat feats. They are also style feats.
Other than Scorpion Style, which oddly enough isn't a style feat, I've never heard or managed to dig up a ruling saying style feats are combat feats or selectable as fighter bonus feats. Unless you've got a source, I'm afraid I'm inclined to believe you are simply mechanically wrong in that assessment.
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It really should just have proficiency with the close weapon group. It has no business having the shuriken at all (close combat group has wushu dart for ranged attack potential anyway)
Make Brawler's flurry an option not baked in or just remove it full stop, if people want to two weapon fight they'll take TWF and double slice.
Give more support for Style Feats.
The two knowledge skills are wonky, though (History) because it includes wars makes more sense than Dungeoneering. Local would be a far better fit.
Brawler Strike isn't thematic if they're getting rid of the 'mysticism' aspect. Instead an option to apply half your unarmed strike damage through weapons of the close combat group will allow them to overcome DR.
Clarity on whether or not they count as monks/fighters for the purposes of feats would be great. Can they get weapon specialisation?
I really hope they clarify the 'class for prereqs' thing for all of the classes when the book drops. Will save a lot of headaches when game time rolls around.
And yeah, brawlers strike is pretty jarring thematically, but allowing unarmed damage with fist weapons doesn't seem to fit either. Personally would rather keep it an unarmed spec class amd just go another direction entirely like give a bonus to damage instead of bypassing dr.|
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If Gary Gygax was still around, he would happily tell you how Fighters can function without specialized expertise in swimming, climbing, basket-weaving and calculus.
You wouldn't like the answer, I think.
Thankfully I'm not bound by the design philosophies of a dead man who created a game with little resemblance to what it has evolved into, or I would be mightily stung by this.
But that's not the case at all considering that many of the skills you mentioned above are skills the fighter can and is often already pretty good at without dropping a point into by the very nature of their build (Swim & Climb) and are things that any class can do untrained. Basically the fighter comes with plenty of juice to already do most of the skills you mentioned very well without needing to invest a point in them so you are left to invest in those skills that either require a point to use or are things they aren't really good at usually like Cha based skills.Most? I mentioned at least 8 skills there, pointing out two he can do okay (assuming he's a Str based Fighter and not an archer or Finesse/Dervish Dance fighter...) doesn't really invalidate my point there.
Climb and Swim are both class skills that can be done untrained and are strength based which is something a fighter is already pretty good at.
Survival is a skill that can be done untrained and getting along in the wild is a DC 10 and assuming you only put 1 rank in it allows you to determine where north lies in relation to you. Combine that with a map and you've got your food and how the hell to get home.
Knowledge of any given location is a skill encompassed under various skills such as Knowledge local or geography and knowing the basic knowledge of those places including local laws, rulers, and popular locations is a local check with a DC of 10 which you can do untrained.
As for creatures there are some creatures that can be classified as so common that they are treated as having a DC of 5+CR allowing said fighter to hit their DC with ease.
As for your assertion of preschool level understanding I'm sure that still puts him ahead of a lot of other common folk and his skill with a blade would more then make up for his inability to tell the exact way in which a seps poison dissolves your blood vessels. On top of all this he would likely look for companions who to travel with who might be able to fill in the gaps he has in his knowledge who would also benefit from his various skills including his willingness to run headfirst at a dragon and skill with cleaving it's skull off.
Now I think I have gotten most of the skills you mentioned but if I missed some feel free to point them out.
Anyways the real point is that the fighter and brawler are fighters first and foremost, they are men, women, and smizmars who make a living beating the living tar out of people and honing their skills with various weapons up to and including their own bodies. They are in a profession where their office is a battle field and their garbage bin is a charnel pyre, they hire men and women with greater knowledge of the various species and outsiders when they need to put down said creatures and use the knowledge of those people to be more efficient at that job. In essence if they wanted to be better bakers or potters or swimmers or rock climbing lumberjack historians they would be that, but they chose to wake up every morning and go to work with a battleaxe or whatever they use asking themselves who am I going to have to fight today?
I think they need to add a list of available feats here.
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The thing with low skill points for martial classes goes back to the 'caster edition' debate. Simple fact is martial classes tend to have less utility out of combat right out of the box than casters. Casters have spells for non combat situations, and some of the schools/bloodlines/etc give skill bonuses. Primary combat classes have, well, nothing.
When I dm I houserule that the martial classes have min 4+int. Do I care if fighters are supposed to be dumb? Not really. It just balances things ever so slightly. If a player demands to know how it makes sense in-game I just say casters with 2+int skills have to devote more time to their spellcraft so have less time to focus on other skills. At the end of the day it's irrelevant though because the real reason is the fighter can't wave his hands and bend the situation to his will so he NEEDS options.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Alright, so I've taken some time to go over the Brawler and thought I'd share my opinions so far.
-Overall, I really like the Brawler. Like others, I think this will replace the Monk in many people's minds, which is just fine by me. The Monk will still have a place for those who want to do the real mystic-type character, but for straight martial arts and general beat-em-up, this will take the cake.
-Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Simple weapons are included here, which I think works just fine. Note that the dagger doesn't need to be specifically listed, since it's a simple weapon. I would consider adding the knuckle axe from Ultimate Combat to the list, since it's thematic for the unarmed-type guy.
-Martial Mastery: This is the ability that I'm most worried about, mostly because this doesn't require any mental ability score at all, and that means that the Brawler can go totally Strength-focused and drop all his mental scores to essentially zero if he really wanted to. Currently, the only reason not to have a 7 in Int, Wis, and Cha is to qualify for some of the combat feats, like Combat Expertise and Rapid Grappler, and even for those all you need is Int 13 forever. I would recommend that the uses per day of this ability by keyed off of either Wisdom or (my preference) Intelligence, so it would change to something like this: "She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum 1)." You could also have a feat called "Extra Martial Mastery" that would give you two more uses per day. This would give a player a reason not to dump all mental stats and boost Strength through the roof, and would also require them to use some of their feats to increase the number of uses if they want.
I also worry that this ability is going to create incredibly complex character sheets at the table, with a Brawler player having essentially every Combat feat at her disposal at any time. "Hold on, let me look up this feat and see if I want to know it right now." seems like a new common thing. Now, I'll admit that this probably isn't any more complicated than a Cleric or Druid in general because of their spellcasting, but the difference is they have a spell list that they prepare at the beginning of the day and can't change, so there's less on-the-fly stuff. I would suggest here that the Brawler have a relatively small list of feats that he can choose to switch out on the fly, perhaps equal to 3 + his Int bonus? Then at each new level, they could re-train as many of these Combat feats as they want. This would reduce the number of feats that a player may have to look up at a given table, since they'll have their list of "known" feats that they can switch between.
-Unarmed Strike: This is perfect, and I'm glad to see Jason already fixed the issue with the damage progression.
-Maneuver Training: This is a great ability, and will fit very well with the Martial Mastery ability, allowing you to boost your tripping ability in general while saving Greater Trip to be "learned" as needed, etc.
-AC Bonus: Makes sense, though this could be another place where capping based on Int is a possibility; "The Dodge bonus from this ability cannot exceed the Brawler's Intelligence modifier (minimum 1)."
-Brawler Strike: This one has me on the fence, since I always thought of the monk's ability to bypass damage reduction as an extension of his ki, and the Brawler doesn't get ki. However, from a power standpoint, it's essential that your character can bypass damage reduction, so I think it's a necessary evil.
-Knockout: Great ability, very thematic, I love it.
-Awesome Blow: It's been hashed out already, it's too weak, and Jason already said they'll probably be replacing it.
Final thoughts: I think that overall, the Brawler was well-written. The biggest thing I think it needs is reliance on one of the mental attributes for his more Monk-esque abilities. Other than that, this one will be a favorite of PFS players for sure.
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The thing with low skill points for martial classes goes back to the 'caster edition' debate. Simple fact is martial classes tend to have less utility out of combat right out of the box than casters. Casters have spells for non combat situations, and some of the schools/bloodlines/etc give skill bonuses. Primary combat classes have, well, nothing.
When I dm I houserule that the martial classes have min 4+int. Do I care if fighters are supposed to be dumb? Not really. It just balances things ever so slightly. If a player demands to know how it makes sense in-game I just say casters with 2+int skills have to devote more time to their spellcraft so have less time to focus on other skills. At the end of the day it's irrelevant though because the real reason is the fighter can't wave his hands and bend the situation to his will so he NEEDS options.
I don't know. I wouldn't say that the fighters low skill points means he's dumb, it just means that he and his class are focused on combat over those other skills. As for outside of combat, just because they lack ranks in the various skills doesn't mean they cannot participate in diplomacy, intelligence gathering, or any of the various other things you do when not stabbing monsters. Most social interaction checks against normal people are pretty easy considering the low to average Cha of most common folk and even if that isn't the case rolling to aid is only a DC 10. As for other things like intelligence gathering and all that they can still tag along and participate, acting as muscle for the party face, pretending to be the silent warlord that the bard is speaking for, showing the rogue how to carry himself and his weapons when in formal attire and not look like an idiot, the list goes on and on. Really I've found that usually what stalls out the fighter in out of combat scenarios has little to do with his class choice and more to do with them either not wanting to be engaged in the encounter or having other players not want to co operate with them.
@cartmanbeck:
Regarding "Martial Maneuvers": you cannot take feats without qualifying for them; so if you want to temporarily gain Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, you'll need to have at least 13 Int.
I am a bit confused about Brawler's Flurry.
Is this supposed to be a Two-Weapon fighting "style" where you can use two weapons, or a weapons and unarmed strike, or two unarmed strikes?
Also, what is meant by "A brawler with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of brawler’s f lurry, nor can she make natural attacks in addition to her brawler’s flurry attacks." ?
thanks,
-- david
Ah, see, Fuse Styles (and being able to take Style Feats as Bonus Feats, of course, which should be possible) means that Dragon Style gives you what you seek anyway. =)
Very Much this. Fuse Styles is a must. It would allow him to take advantage of high feat numbers and make up for lack of options.
I don't know. I wouldn't say that the fighters low skill points means he's dumb, it just means that he and his class are focused on combat over those other skills. As for outside of combat, just because they lack ranks in the various skills doesn't mean they cannot participate in diplomacy, intelligence gathering, or any of the various other things you do when not stabbing monsters.
If they weren't fighterly things to do, people would not miss the skill ranks. What you are describing is fine for the Warrior, who can see things and act intimidating, and maybe he's the village blacksmith. But a fighter has to lead troops, jump chasms, balance on ledges, climb walls, see things, intimidate things, and maybe is also the village blacksmith... or a dwarven mastercrafter who can forge magical blades. Fighters should be like Madmartigan from Willow with a little Disney's Hercules and some Aragorn, and by mid levels, should be Captain America. If a fighter wanted to be non-magical version of what a Ranger is, that should be a supported option because it totally makes sense. But unless you're a human with above average Intelligence, that's hard to pull off. I accept that.
But the only classes that should really have 2 skill ranks/level are full casters, and maybe a hypothetical uber-Warrior that is like a Barbarian in being just a combat madman but has no nature skills. And I don't mean a Fighter, I mean some kind of beast with d12s for hit points, a Whoop-Ass Pool, and DR, oh so much DR.
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I am a bit confused about Brawler's Flurry.
Is this supposed to be a Two-Weapon fighting "style" where you can use two weapons, or a weapons and unarmed strike, or two unarmed strikes?
Also, what is meant by "A brawler with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of brawler’s f lurry, nor can she make natural attacks in addition to her brawler’s flurry attacks." ?
thanks,
-- david
Just means if you have a claw, bash, or bite attack you can't use it as part of a flurry. Monks have the same restriction. You're stuck with standard unarmed strike or monk weapons.
Just means if you have a claw, bash, or bite attack you can't use it as part of a flurry. Monks have the same restriction. You're stuck with standard unarmed strike or monk weapons.I am a bit confused about Brawler's Flurry.
Is this supposed to be a Two-Weapon fighting "style" where you can use two weapons, or a weapons and unarmed strike, or two unarmed strikes?
Also, what is meant by "A brawler with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of brawler’s f lurry, nor can she make natural attacks in addition to her brawler’s flurry attacks." ?
thanks,
-- david
Does feral combat training fix that issue?
-AC Bonus: Makes sense, though this could be another place where capping based on Int is a possibility; "The Dodge bonus from this ability cannot exceed the Brawler's Intelligence modifier (minimum 1)."
Were this to be used, I would drop a suit of full plate on my guy faster than Steve from Borderlands could say "HAYO!". Granted, I'm already doing that.. so it wouldn't change *my* personal tactics, heh :P
The AC Bonus already seems weak - don't force them to get an 18 in Intelligence by level 18 just so they can get their maximum bonus in that particular skill. Having no higher than a 13 Int all their life is perfectly fine by me for a Brawler, considering they're for punching peoples' faces in, not thinking.
Personally, I'd love to see Brawlers get automatic proficiency in Medium Armor - but not allow them to flurry/gain an AC bonus in any higher. Its awesome that they can use light armor, but right now they seem like they have serious AC issues - unless they grab medium armor with one of their early feats.
My test brawler grabbed that, nabbing a suit of Four-Mirror Armor, and is toting around a 19 AC at level 1 - though +1 is from the Defender of the Society trait. Were she instead only using something Light, say Leather Lamellar, she'd have 16 AC - not horrible, mind you, but it'll quickly get out classed as she goes up in levels.
I haven't had much time to really wade into what's being said in this thread and I'm at work now so I can't really check. I did want to add my two cents on the Brawler though. I was generally disappointed with the class overall. It doesn't feel as if it loses the mysticism of the monk too much. Sure it can't jump ridiculously high or speak to every humanoid, but it still gets very high unarmed damage, unarmed strikes counting as cold iron or adamantine, and this Martial Maneuvers ability. Martial Maneuvers seems like it would be great to just dip a level of Brawler for and run another class with.
I think I came into Brawler expecting a Monk that used weapons, like a barroom brawler or a goon with a set of brass knuckles. Instead it really presents as a Fighter that uses unarmed strikes. I guess I was expecting more of a mundane martial debuffer that gave enemies penalties instead of increasing his own capacity. Sort of like the Brawler archetype for Fighter.
i don't want to beat a dead horse (and i know i've already asked this, a couple times), but we can't effectively put together any builds for comparison sake until we get official word...
I haven't had much time to really wade into what's being said in this thread and I'm at work now so I can't really check. I did want to add my two cents on the Brawler though. I was generally disappointed with the class overall. It doesn't feel as if it loses the mysticism of the monk too much. Sure it can't jump ridiculously high or speak to every humanoid, but it still gets very high unarmed damage, unarmed strikes counting as cold iron or adamantine, and this Martial Maneuvers ability. Martial Maneuvers seems like it would be great to just dip a level of Brawler for and run another class with.
I think I came into Brawler expecting a Monk that used weapons, like a barroom brawler or a goon with a set of brass knuckles. Instead it really presents as a Fighter that uses unarmed strikes. I guess I was expecting more of a mundane martial debuffer that gave enemies penalties instead of increasing his own capacity. Sort of like the Brawler archetype for Fighter.
This Brawler would love menacing stance. I guess I was unrealistically hoping for a mix of the MoMS and the Brawler(Archetype), instead of Vanilla Monk and Fighter.
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This Brawler would love menacing stance. I guess I was unrealistically hoping for a mix of the MoMS and the Brawler(Archetype), instead of Vanilla Monk and Fighter.
Well, I think a lot of the released classes really do feel like they just took the vanilla classes and combined them. I thought the goal was going to be something like the Magus. The Magus is a Fighter/Wizard, but it's style is so very different from what you would actually get if you just made a gestalt Fighter/Wizard as to stand as it's own unique class. I'm not sure I feel like Paizo really hit that with all the new classes.
For someone who loves skills, I think 4+int skills is fine - the Fighter is generally deemed useless out of combat (I know, I'm playing one), so having one with a slightly higher skill set is quite nice.
At least, with a human with 13 int, it would allow the Brawler to grab Climb, Swim, Acrobatics, Survival, Sense Motive, and Perception - none of which are causing the Brawler to really step on the toes of the Rogue or other skill monkey.
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I don't know. I wouldn't say that the fighters low skill points means he's dumb, it just means that he and his class are focused on combat over those other skills. As for outside of combat, just because they lack ranks in the various skills doesn't mean they cannot participate in diplomacy, intelligence gathering, or any of the various other things you do when not stabbing monsters.If they weren't fighterly things to do, people would not miss the skill ranks. What you are describing is fine for the Warrior, who can see things and act intimidating, and maybe he's the village blacksmith. But a fighter has to lead troops, jump chasms, balance on ledges, climb walls, see things, intimidate things, and maybe is also the village blacksmith... or a dwarven mastercrafter who can forge magical blades. Fighters should be like Madmartigan from Willow with a little Disney's Hercules and some Aragorn, and by mid levels, should be Captain America. If a fighter wanted to be non-magical version of what a Ranger is, that should be a supported option because it totally makes sense. But unless you're a human with above average Intelligence, that's hard to pull off. I accept that.
But the only classes that should really have 2 skill ranks/level are full casters, and maybe a hypothetical uber-Warrior that is like a Barbarian in being just a combat madman but has no nature skills. And I don't mean a Fighter, I mean some kind of beast with d12s for hit points, a Whoop-Ass Pool, and DR, oh so much DR.
But this assumes that all fighters are the leaders of men type, fighters are meant to be the best of the best at their particular form of combat not necessarily the one leading the men, developing the tactics or leading the army. That role is something far better filled by classes like the cleric, cavalier, or even bard who have more of the skills and background in leading men and standing back and seeing the big picture. That being said though you can still do that with them if you want you just invest in something like profession (soldier) to get them the skills to run those skills without need to invest in all the other social skills.
as for the other crazy things they do those abilities are matched by buying the magic items they were going to buy anyways. You need to scale that ledge or climb that wall? potion of spider climb. Jump chasms? boots of striding and springing gives you the flat bonus you need or you can just get a potion of jump or a scroll of it and have you wizard cast it on you and you are ready for all the jumping you need.
In the end the need for the extra points really doesn't matter, they get all the points they need and their investment in solid equipment and proper use of teammates gives them everything else they need.
@Chaotic Fighter:
Have you looked into the feat Style Master (Ultimate Combat)?
I'm surprised that no one in four pages has posted a build. Is it not appropriate to the discussion of the class to share actual examples of what you can do with it?
But this assumes that all fighters are the leaders of men type, fighters are meant to be the best of the best at their particular form of combat not necessarily the one leading the men, developing the tactics or leading the army. That role is something far better filled by classes like the cleric, cavalier, or even bard who have more of the skills and background in leading men and standing back and seeing the big picture.
Your second sentence assumes they are not, which is only true because fighters have low skill ranks and a bad skill list. It's certainly not true in fiction, where warriors and knights are often not only leaders, but THE leaders. Captain America is the ultimate fighter, a tough guy with a mighty weapon that everyone respects for his bravery and for being dangerous against almost any opponent. If skills are so easily eclipsed by magic items, what would be the harm in letting low level fighters actually be competent? Plus, the fighter could have ranks in Knowledge (engineering), the Improved Trip feat, and yet have no Acrobatics.
This is kind of a tangent, but to bring it back around, all this is doubly true for the Brawler, who is part monk. The Brawler should be able to maintain full ranks in Acrobatics, Climb, Perception, and Stealth without a high Intelligence.
Lamontius, there's a build in DM Crustypeanuts's post on page 1, inside a spoiler.
@Chaotic Fighter:
Have you looked into the feat Style Master (Ultimate Combat)?
It's one of my favorites but still doesn't fill the role I'm looking for.
Also I'm waiting on the clarification if the new classes count as their parent class for the sake of feats before I start building.
well, you see...I'm surprised that no one in four pages has posted a build. Is it not appropriate to the discussion of the class to share actual examples of what you can do with it?
Also I'm waiting on the clarification if the new classes count as their parent class for the sake of feats before I start building.
i keep asking for clarification on this but the team at Paizo is (understandably) quite busy working through the forums right now and hasn't gotten to it yet... until we know whether brawlers qualify for weapon specialization, or what level they can take style feats (just for 2 obvious examples) any build we look at will be at least a little bit speculative...
Yeah it will have a big impact on how I build my Brawler