Agile Weapon enhancement? If you are running a classic 18 Dex (before any other buffs) the extra +4 damage can massage your base damage up so you aren't plinking away at things. Blinkback belt can help save money(Just need 2 daggers instead of looking like a Mersisel clone)
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That is assuming all of those attacks hit, which is another rogue problem.Side-note: I'm surprised by how so many critics of rogues tend to be unaware of the gravy that is Advanced Rogue Talents.
Did you fail your reflex-save on the ice and fall prone next to the Hasted I-TWF halfling who then declared Hunter's Surprise? ...steel yourself to be on the receiving end of over thirty dice inbound.
A rogue who's NOT Power-Attacking has the same attack-bonus as a d10 class that is. A min/maxed DEX halfling is going to have a higher stat+size attack bonus than probably anyone except a raging barbarian.
And the rogue has a lot of ways to bollox up your defenses (you fell down, didn't you?), as well as buff himself ("Hello, sweet wand of Heroism!").
...I won't even get into Improved Dirty Trick.
As I said above dipping is okay. If the rogue has to dip to get where we want than so be it.Is multiclassing ok? If you say yes I am assuming the majority of the levels have to actually be in the rogue class. None of the rogue 1/class Y 15, and still calling it a rogue.Are we supposed to suggest house rules or make builds under the current rules?<---skipped a lot of post.Make builds. Suggest tactics and strategies that work. House rules don't really help other people but working within the rules will help more often than not.
ok..I will try to get a level 11 build up today using 20 point buy.
The focus will be on disabling traps, at least secondary combatant,
skills: perception, disable device, knowledge(3 monster knowledges), sense motive, stealth, maybe disguise anything else is extra.
The concept will be a ninja. TWF fighting style.
That is assuming all of those attacks hit, which is another rogue problem.Side-note: I'm surprised by how so many critics of rogues tend to be unaware of the gravy that is Advanced Rogue Talents.
Did you fail your reflex-save on the ice and fall prone next to the Hasted I-TWF halfling who then declared Hunter's Surprise? ...steel yourself to be on the receiving end of over thirty dice inbound.
A rogue who's NOT Power-Attacking has the same attack-bonus as a d10 class that is. A min/maxed DEX halfling is going to have a higher stat+size attack bonus than probably anyone except a raging barbarian.
And the rogue has a lot of ways to bollox up your defenses (you fell down, didn't you?), as well as buff himself ("Hello, sweet wand of Heroism!").
...I won't even get into Improved Dirty Trick.
A rogue that is not power-attacking does not have the same attack bonus as D10 class that is. Maybe if you only look at BAB, but for an actual build the D10 class still does more damage, and hits more often.
Also anyone can take UMD. I had a barbarian with UMD before. That is not something only rogues do. I just took skill focus(UMD)to make up for the lack of charisma, which I did not dump.
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ok..I will try to get a level 11 build up today using 20 point buy.
The focus will be on disabling traps, at least secondary combatant,
skills: perception, disable device, knowledge(3 monster knowledges), sense motive, stealth, maybe disguise anything else is extra.
The concept will be a ninja. TWF fighting style.
STR-05 ...halfling 20pt
DEX+17 (all bumps)CON:14
INT:14
WIS:12
CHA+16
Wanding and dirty-tricking is actually Little League rogue stuff.
-- What were really waiting for is hitting automatic 30+ UMD checks for emulating class, race and alignment.
<long slow laugh building to a maniacal, evil cackle>
Mwahahahahaha...
You seem overly defensive. I never said the rogue sucked. I am only pointing out common problems. Now if you have a build that can bypass these problems then present it to the board with advice on how to play it, and most of us already know about sapmaster, so no need to go into that.
Hopefully nobody expects for you to do everything with your rogue, but you should still say I expect my rogue to do X, Y, and Z.
Getting 30+ on a skill check is not that difficult either if you really want to focus on it.
Most of them allow you to take 10
10 ranks +3(class)+(masterwork item(+2)+skill focus(+6)+
Circlet of persuasion(+3)+item to boost skill by +5, charisma as a secondary stat(+2)=31
Now even without the magic item to boost it by +5 you are sitting on a 26. A trait would make it a 27, and that is without looking through any books or using any races that give another +2 charisma and therefore a +1 bonus to the skill bringing the total to 28. That means 1 off from an automatic 30. I am sure if I actually picked up some books I would find that plus 1. There is probably an ioun stone that gives some type of bonus. I know about the luck stone, but I dont want to use that at level 10.
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That is assuming all of those attacks hit, which is another rogue problem.Side-note: I'm surprised by how so many critics of rogues tend to be unaware of the gravy that is Advanced Rogue Talents.
Did you fail your reflex-save on the ice and fall prone next to the Hasted I-TWF halfling who then declared Hunter's Surprise? ...steel yourself to be on the receiving end of over thirty dice inbound.
A rogue who's NOT Power-Attacking has the same attack-bonus as a d10 class that is. A min/maxed DEX halfling is going to have a higher stat+size attack bonus than probably anyone except a raging barbarian.
And the rogue has a lot of ways to bollox up your defenses (you fell down, didn't you?), as well as buff himself ("Hello, sweet wand of Heroism!").
...I won't even get into Improved Dirty Trick.
problem is, your examples (trip, UMD, dirty trick) can all be used by other classes (even if 3 points lower for no-class skill) and said others would remain on top of the rogue via higher BAB netting them better accuracy (on the maneuvers, anyway).
the loss of the damage from the lack of PA/piranha strike only has them fall behind as well.
the main problems i find with the rogue are:
-it has nothing to call it's own anymore (sneak attack, trapfinding, uncanny dodge/evasion, rogue talents, etc. are passed around like a cheap hooker when the navy makes port)
-it's hard-pressed to compete with other skillmonkeys or combat classes on either front
----the bard is it's main competitor due to JoaT, bardic knowledge, and versatile performance,
----the alchemist is a surprising contender with possible SA (vivisectionist), 4+int skill points/level, and having int as it's "casting" stat, which folks tend to invest quite heavily in (the rogue doesn't necessarily have this advantage, since they usually invest in str or dex for combat, con to not die, and possibly cha for demoralize/feint if thats their shtick, or UMD bonuses, though this can be int instead if they want).
----the ninja straight-up outclasses the rogue in combat (even if only by the simple virtue of easier sneak attacking), and is on even fields for the skill sections, minus the trap bonuses--which admittedly can be important.
----the ranger and inquisitor have 6+int skills/level and are relatively free to throw them around (the latter also has the nice SAD-aiding mechanic via stern glare and monster lore)
----the various other int-casting classes (wizard, magus, witch) can also make decent use of their skill points in the same manner as the alchemist--via their high investment in int (though this isn't quite as dramatic due to them having spellcraft as a skill-tax for the class, and their low 2+int skill points/level)
----special note also goes to the cloistered cleric AT and lore oracle, who can work as semi-'pokedex' characters; the cleric via the skill/level changes for the AT and their breadth of knowledge ability, the oracle via the lore master revelation and the peripheral revelations that boost knowledge checks (and the keen intellect revelation for more skill points down the road).
-and the ninja class exists as a sort of isaiah mustafa-slash-giant-middle-finger.
"hello players. look at your rogue, now back to me, now back at your rogue--now back to me.
sadly, he isn't me. but if you take the ninja trick and/or ki pool/master's teachings talent(s) (with enough wis investment) he could pretend like he's me.
look down--back up. where are you? you're in a dungeon with the ninja your rogue could play like.
what's in his hand--back at me--I have it. it's a dagger that's actually managing to sneak attack with regularity. look again--his invisibility is now perfect.
anything is possible when your character is a ninja and not a rogue--i'm superior."
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A rogue that is not power-attacking does not have the same attack bonus as D10 class that is.4th level ...the d10 Power Attacker is -2 to hit. The rogue not Power Attacking is actually +1 to hit relative. (At 5th, they'll be even again. 25% of levels the rogue who doesn't PA is actually ahead as far as BAB+PA is concerned.)
Maybe if you only look at BAB, but for an actual build the D10 class still does more damage, and hits more often.
I don't see the point of an extended discussion into fighter bonuses versus a competent rogue's "you suck now!"
Stipulated: the rogue loses (usually) in any dumb DPR-type contest where both characters have their feet nailed to the floor 5' apart in the middle of an empty, brightly-lit room, and the only equipment both of them have is a melee weapon and armor.
Also anyone can take UMD. I had a barbarian with UMD before. That is not something only rogues do. I just took skill focus(UMD)to make up for the lack of charisma, which I did not dump.
What level was he when he could pop a scroll in combat on a 2? (Somebody has to do Breath of Life on the fool battle-cleric after he gets his face ripped off.)
A rogue that is not power-attacking does not have the same attack bonus as D10 class that is.4th level ...the d10 Power Attacker is -2 to hit. The rogue not Power Attacking is actually +1 to hit relative. (At 5th, they'll be even again. 25% of levels the rogue who doesn't PA is actually ahead as far as BAB+PA is concerned.)Maybe if you only look at BAB, but for an actual build the D10 class still does more damage, and hits more often.I don't see the point of an extended discussion into fighter bonuses versus a competent rogue's "you suck now!"
Stipulated: the rogue loses (usually) in any dumb DPR-type contest where both characters have their feet nailed to the floor 5' apart in the middle of an empty, brightly-lit room, and the only equipment both of them have is a melee weapon and armor.
Also anyone can take UMD. I had a barbarian with UMD before. That is not something only rogues do. I just took skill focus(UMD)to make up for the lack of charisma, which I did not dump.When level was he when he could pop a scroll in combat on a 2? (Somebody has to do Breath of Life on the fool battle-cleric after he gets his face ripped off.)
actually, you raise an interesting point--in what combat situation would a rogue beat a fighter where both characters DONT have their feet nailed to the floor 5' apart in the middle of an empty, brightly-lit room, and the only equipment both of them have is a melee weapon and armor.
in darkness he's under the same penalties to hit the fighter as the reverse (and cant sneak attack someone with concealment), at range he'd still hit less often/powerfully than the fighter, and using UMD, the fighter can simply return the favor, albeit 3 points shorter since it isn't a class skill (unless they have dangerously curious).
A rogue that is not power-attacking does not have the same attack bonus as D10 class that is.4th level ...the d10 Power Attacker is -2 to hit. The rogue not Power Attacking is actually +1 to hit relative. (At 5th, they'll be even again. 25% of levels the rogue who doesn't PA is actually ahead as far as BAB+PA is concerned.)Maybe if you only look at BAB, but for an actual build the D10 class still does more damage, and hits more often.I don't see the point of an extended discussion into fighter bonuses versus a competent rogue's "you suck now!"
Stipulated: the rogue loses (usually) in any dumb DPR-type contest where both characters have their feet nailed to the floor 5' apart in the middle of an empty, brightly-lit room, and the only equipment both of them have is a melee weapon and armor.
Also anyone can take UMD. I had a barbarian with UMD before. That is not something only rogues do. I just took skill focus(UMD)to make up for the lack of charisma, which I did not dump.What level was he when he could pop a scroll in combat on a 2? (Somebody has to do Breath of Life on the fool battle-cleric after he gets his face ripped off.)
You can replace the rogue with any other medium BAB class and I would have said the same thing. What matters is the total bonuses, not just BAB-penalties.
The reason why it matters is because in an actual game you will not just be using BAB alone. If BAB alone is all that is used then Power attacking may stop giving positive results, and even the full BAB classes might be in trouble.
I never got to use UMD, and other than skill focus and a trait I did not really invest much in it. My only goal was to really be able to pick up the cleric's wand in combat, if needed. Luckily that day never came.
And please stop putting words in my mouth. I said in exact time I am NOT saying the rogue sucks. I am saying it is a lesser choice, but some class will always be the lesser choice. That is not an insult to that class. It just is what it is.
Maybe if the rogue had been improved more the fighter or barbarian would be the one people wanted to make better.
PS:ok so people already complain about the fighter, but you get my point. :)
just to end the side notes of BAB class comparisons...
Comparing rogues to full BAB classes is like comparing a ninja to a Spartan. The Spartan in direct combat is going to kill the ninja more often than not, yes we admit it. But guess what, the ninja isn't going to fight face to face if he has any say n the matter whatsoever. Instead the ninja is going to go kill the Spartan in his sleep or just sneak around him and the pala-dunce or other guy will be none the wiser at least as often as the Spartan would beat the ninja in that fight.
The rogue has a part to play and he does it well if you think it through and work with ur group.Again I say that I think the rogue looks bad because his archetypes don't do much for him and those that offer something usually cost him his signature magic trap disarm. By contrast, his peers can be adapted to most any role you want em to play. Like someone said above, "the problem isn't the rogue its the other classes".
If you really want a "build" I could post one but I doubt ill change any minds.
This is not supposed to be a pvp thing. My point was that since you would never use BAB as the only way to determine bonuses in a game, that it does not really matter what the BAB alone does here.
As for a DPR contest they would fight the same opponent not each other, not that I think DPR proves the rogue's worth since it is a secondary combatant, much like the bard is.
forgive me I do not wish to sound like im trying to make it a pvp and If I did then I chose my words poorly.just to end the side notes of BAB class comparisons...
Comparing rogues to full BAB classes is like comparing a ninja to a Spartan. The Spartan in direct combat is going to kill the ninja more often than not, yes we admit it. But guess what, the ninja isn't going to fight face to face if he has any say n the matter whatsoever. Instead the ninja is going to go kill the Spartan in his sleep or just sneak around him and the pala-dunce or other guy will be none the wiser at least as often as the Spartan would beat the ninja in that fight.
The rogue has a part to play and he does it well if you think it through and work with ur group.Again I say that I think the rogue looks bad because his archetypes don't do much for him and those that offer something usually cost him his signature magic trap disarm. By contrast, his peers can be adapted to most any role you want em to play. Like someone said above, "the problem isn't the rogue its the other classes".
If you really want a "build" I could post one but I doubt ill change any minds.
This is not supposed to be a pvp thing. My point was that since you would never use BAB as the only way to determine bonuses in a game, that it does not really matter what the BAB alone does here.
As for a DPR contest they would fight the same opponent not each other, not that I think DPR proves the rogue's worth since it is a secondary combatant, much like the bard is.
It is fine, just a misunderstanding. :)
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Stipulated: the rogue loses (usually) in any dumb DPR-type contest where both characters have their feet nailed to the floor 5' apart in the middle of an empty, brightly-lit room, and the only equipment both of them have is a melee weapon and armor.actually, you raise an interesting point--in what combat situation would a rogue beat a fighter where both characters DONT have their feet nailed to the floor 5' apart in the middle of an empty, brightly-lit room, and the only equipment both of them have is a melee weapon and armor.
Dim environment full of cover (such as an ally warren in a shantytown). Halfling rogue employs snipe-and-run tactics while enjoying superior low-light visibility. Human fighter never sees him, or if does, can't reach him before he darts around a corner out of sight again. If the fighter doesn't leave, he eventually runs out of hitpoints and dies.
Rogue's equipment: 0gp sling and a pocketful of rocks.
-- I learned this the hard way playing a APL-1 Intro-level Shieldlands (Living Greyhawk) module, which featured a broken encounter with four halfling rogue assassins in a cave full of stalagmites. The GM flat out told us that it was a badly-designed combat in which there was no way that any party had any chance in hell of avoiding a TPK unless the rogues were stupid and marched up into melee and let us maul them.
Which is then exactly what he had them do, the kind-hearted soul.
I've been thinking for a while now the rogue needs some mechanical advantage built into the class for feinting.
So, just spitballing here, one or more of these:
1) Bake in Improved Feint as a free mechanic early, with a +1 to feint checks that increases maybe every 4 levels. At higher levels, bake in the ability to feint as a swift action a very limited number of times per day.
2) There are several critters that aren't immune to precision damage but cannot be flanked due to their senses or some other ability. Allow rogues, the master flankers and sneak attackers, some form of feint check to get past this and treat them as flanked for the round.
3) Set up a sneak attack focus/specialization tree similar to fighters' weapon focus/specialization. Create the following (non-bonus) talents: Sneak Attack Focus, Sneak Attack Specialization (requires ~4th level rogue), Greater Sneak Attack Focus (requires ~8th level rogue), and Greater Sneak Attack Specialization (requires ~12th level rogue). Require rogue levels, not just sneak attack die, to take all but the first talent to keep these rogue exclusive.
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I've been thinking for a while now the rogue needs some mechanical advantage built into the class for feinting.
So, just spitballing here, one or more of these:
1) Bake in Improved Feint as a free mechanic early, with a +1 to feint checks that increases maybe every 4 levels. At higher levels, bake in the ability to feint as a swift action a very limited number of times per day.
2) There are several critters that aren't immune to precision damage but cannot be flanked due to their senses or some other ability. Allow rogues, the master flankers and sneak attackers, some form of feint check to get past this and treat them as flanked for the round.
3) Set up a sneak attack focus/specialization tree similar to fighters' weapon focus/specialization. Create the following (non-bonus) talents: Sneak Attack Focus, Sneak Attack Specialization (requires ~4th level rogue), Greater Sneak Attack Focus (requires ~8th level rogue), and Greater Sneak Attack Specialization (requires ~12th level rogue). Require rogue levels, not just sneak attack die, to take all but the first talent to keep these rogue exclusive.
Why should the rogue get this?
I just provided an example of how a rogue without a penny to his name could kill a tank fighter and not take a scratch.
Granted, it's situational; but it's a situation the rogue controls. In the right environment, he's the boss.
Add Half the sneak attack dices as precision damage.
Ex.: Rogue lv 3 = +1d6 SA + 1d6 precision damage instead of +2d6 SA
While the rogue can´t SA he can maintain some bonus damage.
Sir Thugsalot, I can best this encounter with some very easily achievable actions on the fighters part. First - he is also a halfling because race has no bearing on class abilities. Second, he pulls his bow and readies his action to shoot the rogue when he appears. Third...loot rogues corpse. The fact remains that in a single shot battle this fighter will win 9 out of 10 times. This is of course assuming a fighter optimized towards the same circumstance (because why compare 2 things that aren't built to compete? You don't compare apples to dumptrucks do you?)
You and I could hypothetically argue rogue vs. fighter debates all day, but in all honesty I agree with you....somewhat. Rogues are awesome in CERTAIN circumstances, the problem is their not awesome in the most common circumstances. That is the point of this thread IMHO.
Anyways, aside from the previous 2 paragraphs I am currently trying to make a rogue for an upcoming RoTRL campaign. I've taken numerous stabs at it, and honestly I think the rogues biggest disadvantages really are just overcome with smart planned out playstyles.
To follow along this line - Rogues are great at LOTS of things. Any one class can do these better(dpr, skills, spells, mobility, traps, etc...)but having the ability to do all of them is what makes the rogue truly unique. The bard is obviously the closest comparison, but even that the bards specialty is very different. A bard usually has to focus on either making those enchantment DC's extremely high, or focus on making himself combat effective, whether through trips, nets, or just attacks. The rogue however is uniquely equipped to be good at all those things, while not being amazing at any.
So I guess, with all that preamble,I guess what I'm getting at is that the rogues shtick is that he doesn't have a shtick. Its his ability to do many different things, and be prepared for anything/everything that makes him so versatile. Need a scout? Sure. Need a trapfinder? Sure. Need a utility caster? Sure. Need a flanking buddy? Sure. Need a party face? Sure. Need some physical damage? Sure.
I think the rogue needs to focus less on any one thing and just prepare for as many situations as feasible. Get yourself a TON of 1st level scrolls/potions, many of these are AMAZINGLY useful. Take dirty trick for when you just can't sneak attack, and instead, blind the enemy for a round to help your fighter out or deafen that enemy spellcaster and jam his spell. Jump in their and flank with your fighter, help him hit and at the same time do some damage (Pro tip - do less damage then your fighter so that enemy doesn't smash you in the face, you roll d8s not d10s, let him get hit). Get yourself a good initiative and take your first round out on someone who rolled low! Be adaptable, I really do believe thats the key to being an awesome rogue.
I appreciate this thread, I'm going to come up with a build for my rogue and post him here. Perhaps I can give data from the upcoming campaign as well.
It's also notable that so far every example Sir Thugsalot has provided is from his experience in 3.0/3.5. Even if the basic chassis is similar, Pathfinder is a very different game from 3.0 D&D.
Stipulated: the rogue loses (usually) in any dumb DPR-type contest where both characters have their feet nailed to the floor 5' apart in the middle of an empty, brightly-lit room, and the only equipment both of them have is a melee weapon and armor.actually, you raise an interesting point--in what combat situation would a rogue beat a fighter where both characters DONT have their feet nailed to the floor 5' apart in the middle of an empty, brightly-lit room, and the only equipment both of them have is a melee weapon and armor.Dim environment full of cover (such as an ally warren in a shantytown). Halfling rogue employs snipe-and-run tactics while enjoying superior low-light visibility. Human fighter never sees him, or if does, can't reach him before he darts around a corner out of sight again. If the fighter doesn't leave, he eventually runs out of hitpoints and dies.
Rogue's equipment: 0gp sling and a pocketful of rocks.
-- I learned this the hard way playing a APL-1 Intro-level Shieldlands (Living Greyhawk) module, which featured a broken encounter with four halfling rogue assassins in a cave full of stalagmites. The GM flat out told us that it was a badly-designed combat in which there was no way that any party had any chance in hell of avoiding a TPK unless the rogues were stupid and marched up into melee and let us maul them.
Which is then exactly what he had them do, the kind-hearted soul.
And this proves nothing. The power is not in the rogue, but in the conditions and the races you chose. You could replace the rogue with any other class and get similar results. A bard could have done the same thing, assuming the rogue was never seen.
Now I will post my build. :)
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Here is my 2 cents on a working Rogue build. Granted I had to dip 2 levels into Fighter (Lore Master) to get the necessary feats early enough. I am only listing the feats by level so you can fill in race, stats, traits, etc as you see fit. The final four levels are open as well as few games ever get that far.
Rogue (Knife Master)
1 Two Weapon Fighting
2 Weapon Finesse (Finesse Rogue)
3 Improved Initiative
Fighter (Lore Master)
4 Quick Draw
5 Wave Strike, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint
Rogue (Knife Master)
6 Weapon Focus (Weapon Training)
7 Two Weapon Feint
8 Greater Feint (Combat Trick)
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Befuddling Strike
11 Improved Disarm
12 Disarming Strike (Advanced Talent: Feat)
13 Critical Focus
14 Improved Evasion
15 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16 Opportunist
17
18 (Advanced Talent)
19
20 (Advanced Talent)
The build assumes dual wielding Kukris to get the max crit range and bonus sneak attack damage from the Knife Master archetype. Agile and Keen weapon enchants are highly recommended asap.
Combat is centered around the feint, with Wave Strike allowing for a feint as a Swift action, and Greater Feint assuring the target is flat-footed until my next turn. Assuming the feint succeeds, each attack that hits will also deal Sneak Attack damage (if target type allows).
[edit]
Added Two Weapon Feint to allow for feints after the first round (I knew there was a reason for going TWF).
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About rogues and any other class, the best way of finding their niche and be contributing is to optimize your strengths and find ways to escape against bad odds.
The rogues strengths are:
Massive skill selection + class skills
Sneak attack (highest additional damage/damage for most classes)
Rogue talents (additional feats, to get your character's concept up quicker)
Trapfinding + Trapspotter
HD d8 (you're a skilled rogue, not a fighting tank, you excell outside of the battling ground, be happy that you don't have a lower HD)
As a Dota/LoL/HoN/Dota2 player I know what a battle really comes down to. In simple terms: when the battle begins put your tank out front, carry out of disabling reach and supports within reach to save the day. Typicly the barbarian (with massive Hp) or a monk (with massive AC) should tank. Anyone with disrupting spells should keep behind their tank to either support your team or blast your foes/weaken them.
But the most important thing is: which team gangs who? That requires you to notice your foes first without them noticing you.
Unfortunately, clerics, wizards, barbarians etc aren't typically some stealthy ninjas, so they should stay back, not alerting any foes about their presence unless you already know where your opponent is and can strategize an effective assault.
- Finally - THE ROUGE is the scout which locates your opponents! Therefor, any spellcaster not casting blur/ invisibility on him havn't played their part as support (even a wizard can support!!). With invisibility + trapfinding + perception rocket high, stealth rocket high, can the rogue accomplish his task.
Your allies still need to be reported about your foes. Make a spell caster cast "message", and you got your own flight tower, ready to assist whenever shit strikes.
If shit strikes, light a lantern, close your eyes and let the caster strike with a readied pyrotechnics firework/smoke, from safe distance.
Once the battling begin, the rogue needs to find his combat role. (that's what we're all discussing).
Practical battle tips:
Melee:
Aware of your HDd8, anyone allowing themselves to take part in melee obviously have a death wish. If you still wanna be part of the melee slaughter, either use the charge + sneak attack ideas others before have mentioned or go two weapon fighting with a spell caster casting "floating disc". Jump on, delay/ready until after casters turn. He can move you into a flanking position (AoO might cause u some harm), anyway now it's your turn, full round sneak attack the enemy to death! (floating disc can be moved/directed by the caster with a move action (he'll spam spells with his/her standard and, possibly, swift action).
Ranged:
However I recommend sniping on safer distances than entering melee.
The reasons;
1. If you go with a point buy stat block you will find it impossible to both maximize your strength, dexterity and con while still getting decent ability modifiers for skills.
2. If your caster gets compromised, you'll stop moving and flanking foes.
3. Much easier to stealth with some distance between you (especially the first 5levels).
4. (with a mount or floating disc cast for you) you can hit with many more sneak attacks/round than a 1weapon weilder can on average each fight. You will even outshine the two weapon melee weilder. Feats Req: rapid shot/TWF+ITWF.
5. With a revolver, you'll solve the rogues hitting problems, you can now attack with ranged touch attacks!
6. Moving is more flexible, easier for flanking partner and out of AoO range, avoid large/huge enemies with reach weapons.
Downside: won't make you earn the +2 flanking bonus, neither will your flanking partner who does this purely out of good will.
1. Stat block (ex)
(20p buy)
Str11, dex20, con12, int10, cha10, wis10
Or focus some specific skills aside from acrobatics, stealth and escape artist;
Str10, dex20, con12, int14, cha10, wis7
Or be more flexible;
Str12, dex18, con12, int12, cha12, wis12
Customize for your race, you don't have to be half-elf/human/half-Orc, Elf and Halfling work as well. Many of the advanced races works too since you primarly want the Dex boost and hopefully some improved vision vs dim light and darkness.
I could keep writing but I'd en up taking 1 side of the forum.
Simple mechanics:
Hit chance: (%) 'i assume the average AC is 12+HD for enemies, touch AC is 14 until lvl 10 or so.
Avrage damage: is supposed to follow the line of 10 damage/lvl
TWF (melee) | 1 weapon weilder | Ranged TWF | Ranged
I'll keep typing tomorrow...
Sorry for the delay..My computer stopped cooperating.
Here is my build. It is a ranger(guide archetype)6/rogue 6.
I chose this archetype so I could choose when to activate my ranger's focus. I
was fooling around with the rogue a few weeks ago and tried a similar ability
on the rogue, that replaced sneak attack damage. The idea was to stop the rogue
from being dependent upon the flank or spending a lot on feinting.
ranger 5 rogue 6
Dwarf Ranger (Guide) 6/Rogue 6
NG Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +5(7 in favored terrain; Senses darkvision 60 ft.;
Perception +23
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Defense
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AC 27, touch 16, flat-footed 23 (+9 armor, +3 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 94 (6d10+6d8+24)
Fort +12 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +16 (+2 bonus vs. traps), Will +14; +2 vs. poison, +4 vs. spells and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training, evasion, trap sense, uncanny dodge
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 dwarven urgosh +14/+9 (1d6+6/19-20x3) and
. . +2 keen +15/+10 (1d8+7/19-20x3)
Ranged +1 composite longbow +14/+9 (1d8+6/x3)
Special Attacks hatred, ranger's focus, rogue talents (fast stealth, ledge walker, positioning attack [1/day]), sneak attack +3d6
Ranger (Guide) Spells Prepared (CL 3rd; concentration +7):
1st (2/day)—lead blades, longstrider
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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +15; CMD 31 (31 vs. bull rush, 31 vs. trip)
Feats Dodge, Double Slice, Endurance, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Lunge, Steel Soul, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (dwarven urgosh)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +11 (+7 jump), Appraise +0 (+2 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Bluff +4, Climb +12, Diplomacy +3, Disable Device +21, Disguise +6, Escape Artist +2, Fly +2, Heal +10, Intimidate +3, Perception +23 (+26 to locate traps, +25 while in ??? terrain, +25 while in urban terrain, +25 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Ride +2, Sense Motive +18, Spellcraft +14, Stealth +16 (+18 while in ??? terrain, +18 while in urban terrain), Survival +18 (+20 while in ??? terrain, +20 while in urban terrain, +21 to track), Swim +10 (+14 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ combat styles (two-weapon combat), favored terrain (urban +2), greed, hardy, slow and steady, stability, stonecunning, terrain bond, track, trapfinding +3, wild empathy
Other Gear +3 Mithral Agile breastplate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +5), +1 Keen Kukri, +2 Keen Kukri, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of giant strength +4, ???, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Ring of protection +2, eyes of the eagle, thieves kit 3084 GP
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Special Abilities
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Boots of friendly terrain ([???]) Gain a Favored Terrain or increase bonus by 2 if already have same.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Endurance +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Favored Terrain (Urban +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Urban).
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Ledge Walker (Ex) No penalty to use Acrobatics to move full speed on narrow surfaces & not flat footed.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Positioning Attack (1/day) (Ex) When hit a foe in melee, move up to 30 ft without AoO, but must end adjacent to that foe.
Ranger's Focus +4 (2/day) (Ex) +4 to hit and damage focused target.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Sneak Attack +3d6 +3d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Terrain Bond (Ex) Allies within LOS and hearing gain +2 Initiative, Perception, Stealth, Survival and don't leave tracks within your favored terrain.
Track +3 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Trap Sense +2 (Ex) +2 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +3 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Wild Empathy +5 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
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I will try to get some DRP numbers up.
I will look at
DPR-no class features, and no flanking.
DRP with flanking and sneak attack
DPR with ranger's focus
DPR with ranger's focus, and flanking and sneak attack.
I will either edit this post or make another comment. I doubt it will take an hour so I should editing this post in 30 minutes or so.
edit: I will also look at perception and stealth checks and how that stack up against CR=character level creatures equivalent creatures.
I did this ages ago. I'll have to see if I can find the build.
Basically you need to be a Scout/Brute Rogue with High Intimidate and Cornugon Smash, Shatter Defence
You Intimidate your foes with Cornugon smash when you charge (auto SA) and when they aare demoralized, Shatter Defences means they are auto SA for as long as the effect lasts.
Also, play a race with Dark/low light vision, a Wand of Blur and MOONLIGHT STALKER is your best friend.
Oh and to make Flanking easier, these are ridiculously cheap
Str 14, Dex 26, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
HP: 10d8 +10
AC: 19 (10 +8 dex +1 armor)
Touch: 19; FF: 13
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +16, Will +5
BAB +7; CMB +11 ; CMD 29
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed + (Purple Worm poison - contact For=DC26 1d3str, frequency 1/round 12 rounds, cure: 2 consecutive saves)
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the City +1 perception
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus(Perception), Deadly Aim,
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack arget with concelment), Weapon Training, Follow Clues, Deadly Cocktail.
Skills (90 points):
Acrobatics +21 (10 ranks)
Diplomacy + 12 (10 ranks)
Climb + 19 (10 ranks)
Disable Device +23 (10 ranks)
Craft(alchemy) + 13 (10 ranks)
Perception/Track +23 (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +21 (10 ranks)
Stealth +21 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +12 (10 ranks)
Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of +4 Dex, Boots of Speed, Sniper´s goggle, Bracers of he falcon´s aim, Padded Armomr, cloak of resistence +1.
Thieves’ tools masterwork, Climber’s kit.
DPR numbers since my other post locks in 10 minutes.
DPR-no class features, and no flanking. 15.24
DRP with flanking and sneak attack 37.08
DPR with ranger's focus 34.92 <---not to far off from sneak attack.
DPR with ranger's focus, and flanking and sneak attack. 67.08
This stealth check is not doing well, but next level / I would have gone for shadow enhancement on the armor for +5
edit: A CR 12 monster forces an average save of 20 vs its abilities.
The rogue has bonuses of -->Fort +12 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation)
Ref +16 (+2 bonus vs. traps),
Will +14; +2 vs. poison, +4 vs. spells and spell-like abilities
Once you add in the dwarf's bonuses even that will save is looking good, well vs spells and SLA's anyway.
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If you can get Dimension Door as an ability somehow you could take the Dimensional Combat feats until you get Dimensional Savant and then give yourself a flanking bonus. This lets you reliably get flanking bonus, attack with two weapons and evade the wrath of your enemies.
And you could also get some distance between you and the target after your last attack.
It would be a combination for high level play though.
The way with the least class levels would be via Horizon Walker. You need 3 levels to get to "Terrain Dominance Astral Plane" which unlocks this ability. Then you need to spend 4 feats to get the ability.
For a full Rogue the only possibility to take those feats would be to use UMD and a wand of Dimension Door. However that carries the problem that the GM has to approve that using a wand allows learning the feats. And it is very expensive.
Another possible option would be to allow a progression into higher level spells via the Minor, Major Magic Rogue Talents... however that is homebrew material.
The only real way to get to this more quickly with a pure rogue is a race that has Dimension Door as an ability. And those tend to not be low level enough for a PC race.
i wonder how a TWF or archer poisoner rogue with pressure points (via ninja trick) and crippling strike would do--it'd be a lot of stat damage at once.