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I really should get around to making full plate skill monkey feint rogue.
You should try that! You have no idea how much fun it was for me to play that! My barbarian can't use full plate, druid and sorcerer wasn't interested and I don't have much AC, so I just took it and it saved my life a few times.
Did your rogue also use a shield?
Did your rogue also use a shield?
Clearly the best rogue is a rogue/fighter/wizard hybrid that specialized in enchantments.
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Did your rogue also use a shield?Clearly the best rogue is a rogue/fighter/wizard hybrid that specialized in enchantments.
A Bard?
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Did your rogue also use a shield?Clearly the best rogue is a rogue/fighter/wizard hybrid that specialized in enchantments.
well obviously :)
Did your rogue also use a shield?
Sometime I will use it, but barbarian carried most of my stuff. Tower shield is useful because my role was to support my team in skills and plotting in order to beat everything we faced by planning ahead of time. Sometimes I don't even attack and just hold a tower shield in front of the druid. After level 10, I dropped my armor because I can just stealth and no need for AC as much as I used to. I had to lowest AC in the group but people often attack the sorcerer first so didn't matter. My team mate she plays a sorcerer who always dressed to show he is a caster, so I gave her my ring of protection and let her have the bracer of armors as soon as I reach level 10.
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A Bard?Did your rogue also use a shield?Clearly the best rogue is a rogue/fighter/wizard hybrid that specialized in enchantments.
My father told me that bards were underpowered.
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My father told me that bards were underpowered.A Bard?Did your rogue also use a shield?Clearly the best rogue is a rogue/fighter/wizard hybrid that specialized in enchantments.
*performs a dramatic double take*
Ba... Ba... Ba... how are you possibly here? I saw your father stab you in the chess.... it can't be.... it just can't be.....
*runs away*
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I read the first page of this post, and just skimmed the rest, so if I missed something of importance, I apologize. I saw TarkXT’s last few posts, so I might as well get this out before the thread is closed. I figured since y’all were looking for builds and suggestions, I’d post a rogue I made for a friend that we’re running now in low levels, but seems to be working pretty well. As mentioned previously, Sap Adept/Sap Master is a good way to boost damage output.
First, some background. I wanted to make a team of characters that worked well together for PFS. Also, I wanted to make something fun, with cool RPing angles and interesting mechanics that we (as a group) had not used much. I put my head together with another rules-savvy guy in our normal group, and we came up with this team concept. I’m going briefly over the rest of the PCs in our normal group, since it’s important to the overall goal of the rogue, and what he does for the rest of the team.
Mechanically, we’re using a few ‘new’ things for us – teamwork feats and the ‘aid another’ action (along with the Bodyguard feat and Paired Opportunist feat). RPing, we are circus members that were adopted by a Halfling ringleader and sent off on the road (if you’ve seen ‘A Bug’s Life’, remember the Roly Polies (sp?) “Tuck” and “Roll” – you’ll have some sense of our group). In the group so far:
• Gnome cavalier riding a wolf (Order of the Dragon, lance and spiked shield) – the primary aid guy.
• Halfling oracle riding a wolf (nature mystery – another melee PC and strong aider, but also divine support & healing).
• Aasimar oracle/sorcerer/mystic theurge (primary arcane support – only down one level as a sorcerer, and can make bad guys provoke AoO using the wildblooded Karmic Sorcerer archetype, along with some additional divine support – good AC)
• Human Fighter (polearm tripping specialist)
In other words, a lot of hand-to-hand capability. Although the fighter can put out some reasonable damage, we wanted a guy who can really focus damage in melee and put the hurt on (particularly with single hits, since a lot of our group synergy involves keeping side-by-side). Rather than going with fighter or barbarian, I originally built this.
Tiefling (Oni) Rogue (swashbuckler/scout)
Starting Stats: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 9, Cha 5
Starting equip: earth breaker, chain shirt
Alternate racial options: bite 1d6, fiendish sprinter, prehensile tail, scaled skin (starting AC 18)
Feats: 1st (Bludgeoner, martial weapon proficiency), 2nd (Combat Reflexes), 3rd (Sap Adept), 4th (Bodyguard), 5th (Sap Master), 7th (Combat Expertise), 9th (Gang Up), 11th (Swift Aid)
Talents: 2nd (Combat Trick), 4th (Combat Trick), 6th (Bleeding Attack), 8th (Offensive Defense), 10th (Opportunist), 12th (Crippling Strike)
I know the Sap Adept/Master route is not new, but the variance might be interesting to some. You might argue that this build still has some of the weaknesses of the standard rogue – low saves, low AC. However, you don’t play in a vacuum, and the group’s aid another bonuses go a long way to make up the differences. Many of our aid to AC can go over +10 to AC, and a dragon cavalier can aid to saves as well (since the rogue has Bodyguard and does some aiding himself, I’ve included the aid modifiers further below). However, what the rogue really adds to our group is some serious damage output. At low levels, he can use his sap adept to increase the damage to both his bite and his earth breaker attack. Since he is doubling his dice on some hits (even more when he hits 4th and 8th level with scout), his bleeding attack and offensive defense not only increase his damage even more, but up his AC (don’t forget double SA dice due to Sap Master). When he picks up Gang Up, he’ll be able to ‘flank’ fairly easily (since two of the PCs in the group ride wolves, which are additional flanking buddies)…of course, that’s not a huge deal since by 8th level, he can move 10’ and do +8d6+16 with sneak attack alone using nonlethal, regardless of flank. Opportunist will be huge, since the cavalier will be giving out the teamwork feat ‘Paired Opportunist’ – if one guy gets an AoO, we ALL get an AoO.
My personal belief in building effective PCs – you don’t have to do everything well, but you should do SOMEthing well…and general be able to contribute something the rest of the time. This guy dishes out damage. You can go human for the extra feat, to get some Power Attack. We haven’t played our group into high levels yet, but from all appearances, it looks like the power curve will hold well.
Some rogue builds suffer more when you’re playing in a ‘Living Style’ of campaign such as PFS. If you don’t know who you are going to play with, it makes your builds vary in effectiveness. “Hey, I’m a great flanker! What, we don’t have any other melee guys in the group…darn it.” Building the PC to a set party (or, in our case, MOSTLY a set group) helps with your concept, and what you should aim for mechanically.
Oh, and for those curious on the aid modifiers our group (and to a lesser extent, this PC) uses:
Trait: Adopted: Halfling – Helpful (making base aid +4)
Special benefit gained from some past PFS adventuring (+2)
Dragon Cavailer – adds to saves as well, with scaling bonus(+?)
Ring of Tactical Precision (+1)
Gloves of Arcane Strike (AC +1/+2/+3…)
Trait: Kin Guardian (AC +2)
Honor Guard Cavalier archetype (AC +1)
Benevolent Armor (AC +1/+2/+3…)
Benevolent Weapon (att +1/+2/+3…)
As an aside, we haven’t gotten all the items yet. So at 4th level, with no items, the rogue can bodyguard his allies for +8 to AC.
While he can’t disable magical devices due to one of his archetypes, his decent intelligence allows for a lot of skill points – which means a lot of things he can do well, or help others do well.
In any case…there you go.
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I wanted to make a team of characters that worked well together for PFS.First rule of PFS: ensure your character remains viable when you're not playing with your usual group under a friendly GM. (The whole point of the "living" system is taking your character on the road.
Tiefling (Oni) Rogue (swashbuckler/scout)
Starting Stats: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 9, Cha 5
Another CHA-dumping "rogue" trying to be a strength-obsessed barbarian. He'll get his face ripped off by Tier 8, then whine on internet forums how rogues are suboptimal. (Then he'll go make an Astrologer with the same 2hPA emphasis, and fail miserably at that too.)
<shaking head>
He'll get his face ripped off by Tier 8, then whine on internet forums how rogues are suboptimal
What else was he suppose to do with an NPC class?
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I wanted to make a team of characters that worked well together for PFS.First rule of PFS: ensure your character remains viable when you're not playing with your usual group under a friendly GM. (The whole point of the "living" system is taking your character on the road.Tiefling (Oni) Rogue (swashbuckler/scout)
Starting Stats: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 9, Cha 5
Another CHA-dumping "rogue" trying to be a strength-obsessed barbarian. He'll get his face ripped off by Tier 8, then whine on internet forums how rogues are suboptimal. (Then he'll go make an Astrologer with the same 2hPA emphasis, and fail miserably at that too.)
<shaking head>
where does it say a rogue can't have a high strength score?
there are plenty of larcenous professions that reward a good powerful sword arm, a decent carrying capacity, or the ability to break down doors
not all of them reward all of it, but a highwayman has to carry his loot, a bouncer has to be able to knock out the trespasser long enough to drag him out of where he isn't welcome, a burglar often needs the ability to break down doors to steal stuff
Well thats why they have appraise. To find the good loot. Take that. Get bags of holding, and possom pouches etc.
A dumb thief is stupid.
where does a thief get the money for those magic bags?
most of those bags also eat heavily into a thief's encumbrance
even then, a decent strength is valuable for carrying loot. because a high enough strength lets you carry multiple bags of holding (16+)
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Well thats why they have appraise. To find the good loot. Take that. Get bags of holding, and possom pouches etc.
A dumb thief is stupid.
where does a thief get the money for those magic bags?
most of those bags also eat heavily into a thief's encumbrance
even then, a decent strength is valuable for carrying loot. because a high enough strength lets you carry multiple bags of holding (16+)
from stealing the good stuff. Not the 60 pounds of scrap metal.
Steal the ladies panties, steal the gemstones from the lead goblet.
And just because they eat at the thief's encumbrance doesn't mean they are not useful. Its like walking instead of driving a van because rockets are faster than a van.
Well thats why they have appraise. To find the good loot. Take that. Get bags of holding, and possom pouches etc.
A dumb thief is stupid.
where does a thief get the money for those magic bags?
most of those bags also eat heavily into a thief's encumbrance
even then, a decent strength is valuable for carrying loot. because a high enough strength lets you carry multiple bags of holding (16+)
from stealing the good stuff. Not the 60 pounds of scrap metal.
Steal the ladies panties, steal the gemstones from the lead goblet.
And just because they eat at the thief's encumbrance doesn't mean they are not useful. Its like walking instead of driving a van because rockets are faster than a van.
i'm not saying they aren't useful, but a type 1 bag of holding will really slow down a thief with less than 14 strength once you take clothing and easy access tools into account.
and how much of the good stuff is really that light weight?
in a traditional heist, you don't have time to remove the gemstones from the goblet, you will eventually have to carry the whole goblet because the time making the skill checks to remove each gemstone, is more time for the authorities to catch you red handed.
in fact, discerning which stuff is the good stuff you can actually carry, takes way too much time to be practical.
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Thats why you case the place early on.
If you cant get in normally, break in, but leave nothing disturbed. Come back again another time.
If no one knows you broke in the first time, and you stole nothing, security isn't going to increase.
And if you're smart, you could get away with stealing a few things. Sometimes the thief that takes a few things can get more than the thief that takes as much as he can.
Be a smart thief, not a dumb thief.
Thats why you case the place early on.
If you cant get in normally, break in, but leave nothing disturbed. Come back again another time.
If no one knows you broke in the first time, and you stole nothing, security isn't going to increase.
And if you're smart, you could get away with stealing a few things. Sometimes the thief that takes a few things can get more than the thief that takes as much as he can.
Be a smart thief, not a dumb thief.
i'm sure the guards would know somebody was snooping around
the DC to spot a thief in most Scenarios, is 0. it is why Jack can't steal a chicken
Wouldn't a "smart" thief gather Intel on the place to be robbed? Maybe the thief has been hired to steal a specific item?
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Thats why you case the place early on.
If you cant get in normally, break in, but leave nothing disturbed. Come back again another time.
If no one knows you broke in the first time, and you stole nothing, security isn't going to increase.
And if you're smart, you could get away with stealing a few things. Sometimes the thief that takes a few things can get more than the thief that takes as much as he can.
Be a smart thief, not a dumb thief.
i'm sure the guards would know somebody was snooping around
the DC to spot a thief in most Scenarios, is 0. it is why Jack can't steal a chicken
Ah but what better place to hide than in plain sight? Disguise and Bluff my friend.
And its also why you don't go stealthing in broad daylight past the guard. Yes I know its hard to stealth when not having HIPS, but the DC to see through a wall is quite a larger number than 0.
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And why does he need a high charisma? Not every rogue is a smooth talking swindler? Why does a rogue need to do high dpr? Some rogues never engage in combat.
This whole thread has no point other than to have people complain about any build that doesn't do everything.
and this ladies and gentlemen is what is called a non-sequitar
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He should be able to come off cool, and sophisticate, even swauve. Just look at the rogues of literature and movies. Like James Bond, Indiana Jones, Han Solo, Tony Stark, Sherlock Holmes, Jack the Ripper, ect.
what gets me about this is that each of the named characters(with the exception of that last) are indeed combat gods who do more than hold their own in a fight- they prop up their respective IPs with little more than their fists and whatever weapon is close by(or built, in the case of stark).
What if I want to be an honest halfling? What do I do then?
Be a living contradiction.
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Hahahahahahah! I did it! I did it! You can all bask in my eternal fortitude! I read every post in this thread 29 page behemoth! BOOYA! I am a reading MASTER!
... or an insomniac. Seriously, the 'round robin arguments are both bizarre and old. It almost put me to sleep until Tark managed to be all civilized and smart and stuff. Lousy Tark.
EDIT: nobody can post anything else here, because I read all 600+ new posts since I was last here, and I really want to be done. Blast my OCD.
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what gets me about this is that each of the named characters(with the exception of that last) are indeed combat gods who do more than hold their own in a fight- they prop up their respective IPs with little more than their fists and whatever weapon is close by(or built, in the case of stark).
He should be able to come off cool, and sophisticate, even swauve. Just look at the rogues of literature and movies. Like James Bond, Indiana Jones, Han Solo, Tony Stark, Sherlock Holmes, Jack the Ripper, ect.
Well.. Not really Combat Gods.
Bond for example, in most of the older ones at least, tended not to fight. Just don't get in a car with him driving off some where random. He'll beat you to death with the card as seen in Dr. No.
Indiana Jones - Not really combat god either. He spends most of his 'fights' attempting to escape. But He can disable a guy now and then as needed, or shoot them to death after they attempt a dazzling display. Heck, seeing someones heart get ripped out of their chest through voodoo hardly phases him.
Han Solo - Not really a combat god either (by the movies) But damned be the gods if he wasn't skillful at getting a good surprise round off.
Tony Stark - Not really a combat god either. But he's smart. Given enough time he can build any weapon or tool needed.
Sherlock though... Now THIS is a combat god. At least according to the last few movies, and possibly the books. This is a man who can deduce exactly the best way to take a man down. He doesn't kill though. He destroys their soul when he fights. He can also quickly, swiftly don a disguise in a matter of minutes while walking. Has access to a bountiful amount of knowledge. The only time he's really out matched in combat is when the man is way too big, or they are as good as him in precognitive combat.
Jack the Ripper - Not really a combat god either.
Dang, it, guys, I was done. NOW I've got to read two more posts... >:(
I've had some success with a dagger/finesse build. It is, again, a two weapon build, but if you did a couple level dip into duelist, i could be a viable melee build. To wit:
FEATS- snap shot, improved snap shot, combat reflexes: suddenly, a dagger thrower with threat range like a reach type build. Flanking from a comfortable distance FTW
TALENTS- snap shot, surprise attack, distracting attack: chain a series of sneak attacks in the surprise round for massive damage with only a slight hit to the first sneak attack
If anyone else has anymore input, feel free to add
I wanted to make a team of characters that worked well together for PFS.First rule of PFS: ensure your character remains viable when you're not playing with your usual group under a friendly GM. (The whole point of the "living" system is taking your character on the road.Tiefling (Oni) Rogue (swashbuckler/scout)
Starting Stats: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 9, Cha 5
Another CHA-dumping "rogue" trying to be a strength-obsessed barbarian. He'll get his face ripped off by Tier 8, then whine on internet forums how rogues are suboptimal. (Then he'll go make an Astrologer with the same 2hPA emphasis, and fail miserably at that too.)
<shaking head>
where does it say a rogue can't have a high strength score?
there are plenty of larcenous professions that reward a good powerful sword arm, a decent carrying capacity, or the ability to break down doors
not all of them reward all of it, but a highwayman has to carry his loot, a bouncer has to be able to knock out the trespasser long enough to drag him out of where he isn't welcome, a burglar often needs the ability to break down doors to steal stuff
Yes exactly. If you have a dm that enforces encumbrance, then a low str can be a real problem for a thief, burglar or treasure hunter. 17 at least to carry a lot of loot and kit.
Two of my best friends and I always play Rogues. In our opinion, Rogue is the strongest character class. In our games Skills play a major role and traps can kill you if you don't have a very good trap spotter. Also, my experience is that a Rogue can out-fight and out-kill any class with the proper feats/talents to maximize their Sneak Attack ability - Improved Feint and Improved Initiative are very useful in this regard. Going first is the best way to insure that you at least get your first attack off as a Sneak Attack. Strong Acrobatics skill is needed to place yourself so that you can flank often and without suffering Attacks of Opportunity. If a low-level Rogue can't beat a low-level caster that Rogue is being played wrong. In play I haven't found a Wizard I couldn't kill at any level with an equal or near equal Rogue. Also, if you have a buddy who plays an aggressive Rogue too then opportunities for Sneak Attack use are pretty consistent. Another point: only being strong in Reflex saves isn't so bad when you get Evasion to allow you to escape many of the more frequently encountered nasty spells out there.
Good stories, glad you are getting so much use out of them, but rogues vs barbarians? I would bet on the barb overcoming the rogue.
what gets me about this is that each of the named characters(with the exception of that last) are indeed combat gods who do more than hold their own in a fight- they prop up their respective IPs with little more than their fists and whatever weapon is close by(or built, in the case of stark).
He should be able to come off cool, and sophisticate, even swauve. Just look at the rogues of literature and movies. Like James Bond, Indiana Jones, Han Solo, Tony Stark, Sherlock Holmes, Jack the Ripper, ect.
Actually, THE Rogue was Cugel the Clever. Good looking, had a high bluff, some modest skill in magic, etc- but not in any way a DPR monster. Also The Grey Mouser, who was a bit of a DPR guy.
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Two of my best friends and I always play Rogues. In our opinion, Rogue is the strongest character class. In our games Skills play a major role and traps can kill you if you don't have a very good trap spotter. Also, my experience is that a Rogue can out-fight and out-kill any class with the proper feats/talents to maximize their Sneak Attack ability - Improved Feint and Improved Initiative are very useful in this regard. Going first is the best way to insure that you at least get your first attack off as a Sneak Attack. Strong Acrobatics skill is needed to place yourself so that you can flank often and without suffering Attacks of Opportunity. If a low-level Rogue can't beat a low-level caster that Rogue is being played wrong. In play I haven't found a Wizard I couldn't kill at any level with an equal or near equal Rogue. Also, if you have a buddy who plays an aggressive Rogue too then opportunities for Sneak Attack use are pretty consistent. Another point: only being strong in Reflex saves isn't so bad when you get Evasion to allow you to escape many of the more frequently encountered nasty spells out there.Good stories, glad you are getting so much use out of them, but rogues vs barbarians? I would bet on the barb overcoming the rogue.
Rock, paper, scissors
I've had some success with a dagger/finesse build. It is, again, a two weapon build, but if you did a couple level dip into duelist, i could be a viable melee build. To wit:
FEATS- snap shot, improved snap shot, combat reflexes: suddenly, a dagger thrower with threat range like a reach type build. Flanking from a comfortable distance FTW
TALENTS- snap shot, surprise attack, distracting attack: chain a series of sneak attacks in the surprise round for massive damage with only a slight hit to the first sneak attack
If anyone else has anymore input, feel free to add
You post build with level progression!
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where does it say a rogue can't have a high strength score?The PFS School of Hard Knocks.
"Where does it say a barbarian can't dump strength and constitution?"
Same place. And the nuns rap your knuckles hard there. (Ask Jake.)
What about tier 8 makes it so that low charisma and high strength scores on a non-caster will get him killed?
Where do you get off telling him that he's not allowed to play this PFS character with only his friends, anyway? You do realize PFS exists outside conventions, right?
where does it say a rogue can't have a high strength score?The PFS School of Hard Knocks.
"Where does it say a barbarian can't dump strength and constitution?"
Same place. And the nuns rap your knuckles hard there. (Ask Jake.)
What about tier 8 makes it so that low charisma and high strength scores on a non-caster will get him killed?
Where do you get off telling him that he's not allowed to play this PFS character with only his friends, anyway? You do realize PFS exists outside conventions, right?
i'm sure there is nothing that will get a noncaster with high strength and low charisma scores killed past tier 8.
even with mithril plate and a 3 level weapon master dip. i'm sure the high strength low charisma rogue can still accomplish the associated rogue functions of scout and trap springer. but will generally be better in combat.
but i haven't played PFS since 2010. so they might have changed their restrictions. but last i checked, a rogue whom minmaxed dexterity and charisma, wasn't really needed. the scenarios were easy
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In the 2hPA MAD strength rogue who butchered his stats to pay for strength, and who suited up in plate but forgot a shield? Mainly, crits versus weak AC and blown saves start dropping 'em like flies at about that level, as they simply don't have the resiliency of real tanks to handle the large multi-attack reach monsters which begin showing up. The 2hPA human rogue's Evasion, touch AC, Stealth, Acrobatics and Escape Artist are likewise poor compared to the small race or elven DEX rogue who excels in those departments.What about tier 8 makes it so that low charisma and high strength scores on a non-caster will get him killed?where does it say a rogue can't have a high strength score?The PFS School of Hard Knocks.
"Where does it say a barbarian can't dump strength and constitution?"
Same place. And the nuns rap your knuckles hard there. (Ask Jake.)
Where do you get off telling him that he's not allowed to play this PFS character with only his friends, anyway?
You're committing a red herring logical fallacy by mischaracterizing a discussion concerning what's suboptimal into a rant about how you're being told to do something, which isn't the case.
-- You can bring the crappiest build imaginable to PFS. No one is stopping you from leveling up except the dice.
If you don't want to listen to a voice of experience informing you what they've seen work and not work in PFS, *shrug*, that's your decision.
but i haven't played PFS since 2010. so they might have changed their restrictions. but last i checked, a rogue whom minmaxed dexterity and charisma, wasn't really needed. the scenarios were easyNot anymore they're not, especially in the upper tiers.
i admit the proposed rogue has poor wisdom, here is how i would have done the strength rogue to mitigate that
Fighter (Weapon Master) 3/Rogue (Scout) X
Half-Elf with Drow Blooded and Ancestral Arms (Fauchard) Alternate Racials
Take the 3 Fighter levels first, then the rogue levels
20 Point Stats would be (At level 1)
Str 17 (15+2) Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 7
Bump Str at 4th level and Cha at 8th
Wear Full Plate like a Fighter and Use a Fauchard with 2handed power attack
Essential Items Would be Gloves of Dueling and Mithril Plate
instead of belts of Str +4. it would buy physical perfection +2
Favored Class HP
Start with Power Attack and Toughness
Traits would be Armor Expert and Defender of the Society
would seek the following weaponry
a magic adaptive composite bow
a magic fauchard
a magic cestus slightly behind the fauchard
i wouldn't neglect archery but i would build up a few of the basics
would this particular strength rogue actually work?
I've recently found out that best dex rogue is the bard. Arcane strike + inspire courage are just better than sneak attack and works for range weapons. (Actually you probably want to focus on range weapons and grab nothing more than weapon finesse for melee).