Ladies and Gentlemen: It's time we made the rogue work.


Advice

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Marthkus wrote:

To these builds posted.

What does your rogue do if there is a monster floating 10ft above them?

What does your rogue do in crowded hallways where rolling past your party front man AND the monster to set up a flank leaves you flanked by another monster?

What does your rogue do with enemies who backed into a corner?

What does you rogue do when flanking an enemy means jumping through the bottle-neck of monsters and taking 6 attacks next turn?

What does your rogue do in any of the above once base weapon damage becomes useless?

1) I fly up to it. Jus sayen, my build has wings

2) Take the risk. Dead monsters don't give flank. Or just make the other enemy run from me.
3) SLAY THEM
4) Make them FEAR ME.
5) Bleed them out, fear me, Slaughter them with laughter. FEAST ON THEIR BODIES.


Darche Schneider wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

To these builds posted.

What does your rogue do if there is a monster floating 10ft above them?

What does your rogue do in crowded hallways where rolling past your party front man AND the monster to set up a flank leaves you flanked by another monster?

What does your rogue do with enemies who backed into a corner?

What does you rogue do when flanking an enemy means jumping through the bottle-neck of monsters and taking 6 attacks next turn?

What does your rogue do in any of the above once base weapon damage becomes useless?

1) I fly up to it. Jus sayen, my build has wings

2) Take the risk. Dead monsters don't give flank. Or just make the other enemy run from me.
3) SLAY THEM
4) Make them FEAR ME.
5) Bleed them out, fear me, Slaughter them with laughter. FEAST ON THEIR BODIES.

So I took that as

1) do base weapon damage since you are not flanking
2) Take unnecessary damage because your class requires it to contribute to fights
3) do base weapon damage since you are not flanking
4) die
5) Have the sorcerer cast "self delusion"

I asked for mechanics not narrative.


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You haven't read my build apparently. :/

Flanking is nice, but its not my soul method of dealing sneak attack.

1) Shaken opponents are flat footed to me.
2) Shaken opponents who are shaken for 4+ rounds I can convert to 1 round of fightened. Frighted enemies run
3) Shaken Opponents are flat footed to me.
4) Frightened opponents run, shaken opponents lose accurancy.
5) Again, fear. I use fear and LOTS OF IT.

Now your question is 6) what if it can't be demoralized.

Well then that is when I'd have to default back to normal rogue tactics. But what do fighters do when they don't have their weapon? What do mages do when they can't cast?


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Rogue with a wand of Tiny Hut (3rd level spell):

Since the enemies outside of the hut can't see the rogue, Tiny Hut is the new Blink. Ranged rogue casts it behind the party tanks and plinks away with sneak attack damage for the rest of the combat.

Buh-ZING!


Darche Schneider wrote:

Fear Me

This is the build here. Mind you it is using a crafted race, but the race hardly adds anything but some flying fun. Replace it with a human or kitsune and you get the same thing about. Better yet, an iffrit.

20 point build, limited to PRD only material other than the race.

The strategy is pretty much for him.. (Switching First level of rogue with second level of fighter)

Level 1 - Just kill the enemy.
Level 2 - Just Kill, or spend one round to Dazzle
Level 3 and 4 - Start doing hero's display every round. Why the heck not? Not like you have anything important to use with a swift action. now you're using Dazzling display pretty much every round.
Level 5 and 6 - Sacrifice 1 die of sneak attack to inflict sickened on the enemy now as well when you can..
Level 7+ - Make them fear you. Make them scream. Cry in terror. Oh and you can make things so much worse too..

You could add in Befuddling Strike into the mix.
-2 to Hit demoralize
-2 to hit sickened
-2 to hit Befuddling...

Total of -6 to hit you. Or a 30% chance to hit.. gone. If you start getting surrounded.. Invoke the ability to make some of the enemies frighted for 1 round. Its a little less desirable. but it can help to mitigate damage.

ACTUALLY Offensive Defense is better. Because it adds more AC to you.

Minor magic can't help too much. but as a rogue, you could use it to pass messages to friends.

Major Magic - Enlarge person. +4 to intimidate, more damage. Greater reach. The dread pirate Roberts has come for your souls.

But the kicker is Dispelling Strike. Cause come on, You know they are going to be enchanted with stuff to kill you. RIP IT FROM THEM.

if you can sqeeze it in, you can also get offensive defense to possibly add AC on top of those to-hit penalties you're inflicting via demoralize/sicken/befuddling strike.


Well, the problem with Offensive Defense + Befuddling is they both are talents that modify sneak attack and for whatever reason means they cannot be added together.

So you'd have to hit with Befuddling, then hit again with offensive defense. Luckily.. with my build you'd have just enough BAB to get the full number of attacks a fighter can get. So you can hit with different effects each time.


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Werebat wrote:

Rogue with a wand of Tiny Hut (3rd level spell):

Since the enemies outside of the hut can't see the rogue, Tiny Hut is the new Blink. Ranged rogue casts it behind the party tanks and plinks away with sneak attack damage for the rest of the combat.

Buh-ZING!

Solid trick. =) Going in my big book.


Darche Schneider wrote:

You haven't read my build apparently. :/

Flanking is nice, but its not my soul method of dealing sneak attack.

1) Shaken opponents are flat footed to me.
2) Shaken opponents who are shaken for 4+ rounds I can convert to 1 round of fightened. Frighted enemies run
3) Shaken Opponents are flat footed to me.
4) Frightened opponents run, shaken opponents lose accurancy.
5) Again, fear. I use fear and LOTS OF IT.

Now your question is 6) what if it can't be demoralized.

Well then that is when I'd have to default back to normal rogue tactics. But what do fighters do when they don't have their weapon? What do mages do when they can't cast?

Oh god, a strength rogue with levels in fighter.

THOG SNEAK ATTACK!

Strength rogue are a neat niche, but them being the arguable "best way" to play a rogue sickens me.

Silver Crusade

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Pssh, I don't know what people are talking about, rogues are perfectly fine. Why just this past Saturday my rogue dispelled Runelord Krune's cloudkill. With a wand. While blind...


Marthkus wrote:
Darche Schneider wrote:

You haven't read my build apparently. :/

Flanking is nice, but its not my soul method of dealing sneak attack.

1) Shaken opponents are flat footed to me.
2) Shaken opponents who are shaken for 4+ rounds I can convert to 1 round of fightened. Frighted enemies run
3) Shaken Opponents are flat footed to me.
4) Frightened opponents run, shaken opponents lose accurancy.
5) Again, fear. I use fear and LOTS OF IT.

Now your question is 6) what if it can't be demoralized.

Well then that is when I'd have to default back to normal rogue tactics. But what do fighters do when they don't have their weapon? What do mages do when they can't cast?

Oh god, a strength rogue with levels in fighter.

THOG SNEAK ATTACK!

Strength rogue are a neat niche, but them being the arguable "best way" to play a rogue sickens me.

Actually.. I'm more Charisma based. I went scythe because well, reaper.

However.. You could easily switch out with a little two weapon fighting instead. Levels of fighter are for acceleration mostly


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A lot of what I've seen on this thread is that the rogue is not a solo class. And in truth it really isn't. It is not designed to go kicking in doors and killing hordes of monsters. It needs a party, just like the party needs it (or at least somebody to fill in the social butterfly/sneak thief/occasional trap spotter/spy role). If your group gets by without one good on you, but a lot of people like the concept of the rogue, and they make it work. I like a little cloak and dagger sometimes myself but usually get stuck playing casters... my group hasn't trusted me with a rogue in years mainly because I'm not good at it.

Liberty's Edge

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Marthkus wrote:
What does your rogue do if there is a monster floating 10ft above them?

Fly. With Moonlight Stalker Feint chain you can feint as a swift action if you have concealment to the target. Use Blur/Darkness/Fog to gain concealment and feint/SA away. Don't forget the +2Atk/Dmg from Moonlight Stalker while you are at it.

Marthkus wrote:
What does your rogue do in crowded hallways where rolling past your party front man AND the monster to set up a flank leaves you flanked by another monster?

Why setup a flank in that situation. All you need to do is deny your target it's Dex bonus to get a Sneak Attack. Use feint instead of flanking in such a situation.

Marthkus wrote:
What does your rogue do with enemies who backed into a corner?

Feint.

Marthkus wrote:
What does you rogue do when flanking an enemy means jumping through the bottle-neck of monsters and taking 6 attacks next turn?

Don't flank, feint.

Marthkus wrote:
What does your rogue do in any of the above once base weapon damage becomes useless?

Find ways to stack damage bonuses. Sap Adept/Master, Agile weapon enchant, Moonlight Stalker, buffs, etc.

Liberty's Edge

haruhiko88 wrote:
A lot of what I've seen on this thread is that the rogue is not a solo class. And in truth it really isn't. It is not designed to go kicking in doors and killing hordes of monsters. It needs a party, just like the party needs it (or at least somebody to fill in the social butterfly/sneak thief/occasional trap spotter/spy role). If your group gets by without one good on you, but a lot of people like the concept of the rogue, and they make it work. I like a little cloak and dagger sometimes myself but usually get stuck playing casters... my group hasn't trusted me with a rogue in years mainly because I'm not good at it.

Pathfinder is a team game not a solo game. The game and it's modules/APs are designed around a party of 4.


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Midnighter wrote:
haruhiko88 wrote:
A lot of what I've seen on this thread is that the rogue is not a solo class. And in truth it really isn't. It is not designed to go kicking in doors and killing hordes of monsters. It needs a party, just like the party needs it (or at least somebody to fill in the social butterfly/sneak thief/occasional trap spotter/spy role). If your group gets by without one good on you, but a lot of people like the concept of the rogue, and they make it work. I like a little cloak and dagger sometimes myself but usually get stuck playing casters... my group hasn't trusted me with a rogue in years mainly because I'm not good at it.
Pathfinder is a team game not a solo game. The game and it's modules/APs are designed around a party of 4.

A solid point to a degree. However, if you don't bring your own resources to bear, and rely on those of your party to bring you up to par then the question begs to be asked, "Why not play a class that does function autonomously AND benefits further when those allied resources are spent on him?"

This is the problem we have with the Rogue. When we have classes who can boost themselves above and beyond the Rogue, don't yall think it's a little silly saying that its fine the Rogue has teammates?

Also considering the Rogue's role, the game is often a solo game. Scouting ahead and disabling traps are generally a one man job. So it is often imperative that we are able to get in and get out on our own.


Marthkus wrote:

Strength rogue are a neat niche, but them being the arguable "best way" to play a rogue sickens me.

Ooh. That gives you -2 to saves against a Suggestion to try a dex/int bomb lobber alchemist.


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So Darche Schneider has inspired me to look into making a ranged rogue that works. I'd love some criticism on the build to see if we can't get it up to par together.

The first 2 levels will be weaponmaster fighter (mostly to accelerate the build), with a 3rd level of fighter at level 7 (this gets us weapontraining for a +3 bonus using gloves of dueling, and as we know rogues need to hit. It also gets us shatter defenses at level 7 which is much better then level 9). The rest of the levels will be thug rogue for the chance to cause fear.

20 point buy stats:
str-14
dex-18 (after racial)
con-12
int-7 (bumb this up to 8 and you can lower charisma to 12 for non-dump)
wis-12
char-14

Feats:
1. point blank shot, precise shot, dazzling display
2. heroes display
3. performing combatant
4. rapid shot
5. dramatic display
6. weapon focus
7. shatter defenses
8. -
9. snipers eye, masterful display
10. -
11. resiliency, improved precise shot
12. -
13. crippling strike, deadly aim

for the first 2 levels your just a run of the mill fighter using a bow. Level 3 allows you to start making intimidate checks as a swift action. (or I should say gives us a 65% chance to intimidate as a swift action).

By level 5, we can choose to intimidate, or add a +2 attack via dramatic display. Are attack bonus isn't lagging as far behind a traditional rogue, and the 2 arrows should still pack enough punch to be relevant. (note: intimidate will last 2+ turns meaning we get the +2 attack at least every other round). (also by this time it's an 85% chance to get off the perform check)

At level 7 we get shatter defenses (still later then I'd like, but earlier then level 9 like a pure rogue), and our iterative attack. (the perform check now auto goes off

The best part about this is that we get to intimidate as a swift action, and the first hit will cause the opponent to be prone to sneak attacks. This means we aren't eating up precious resources, to get this off. Furthermore at level 9 masterful display will let us intimidate, and get a +2 attack at the same time.

Snipers eye should help keep giving us sneak attack even with concealment, and I delayed improved precise shot with the knowledge that we could get an enchant to cover us until we could afford the feat.

After level 10 we get the gravy feats/abilities. Level 11 nets us improved precise shot (because it's a must-have feat), and resiliency (to help keep us alive). Level 13 nets us crippling strike (now were debilitating them) and deadly aim (not super useful and open to replacement for us. Iron will comes to mind here).

benefits:
-earlier access to shatter defenses
-swift intimidate sets up full attack ranged attack
-weapon training gives us a net +3 attack/damage (which we sorely need)
-performance combat also eventually nets us another +2 attack
-fighters helps bump the fort save
-sneak attack is now more reliable (in theory it should replace deadly aim since rogues can't afford the negative to hit penalties associated with it)

Cons:
-if your immune to intimidate this won't function (although at least your at range
- no improved initiative till later lessens the chance to go first
- rogue saves are in the least important place (reflex, instead of will/fort)
- for the first few levels your a fighter not a rogue
- if you don't like being boisterous the performance side of the build will grate on your nerves (essentially your playing the part of an attention seeker)
- lose 1d6 sneak attack die


Since Ultimate combat came out I wouldn't build a rogue without the Ki pool talent and the vanising trick and invisible blade ninja tricks.

Invisible you get +2 to your attack and deny your opponent's Dex bonus to ac, which means you get to hit much more reliably, and don't actually have to flank or spend time trying to hide again before making your next attack to get sneak attack. Also you are much harder to hit, or even find.

Grand Lodge

Only problem, Rogue can't get master ninja tricks.


Threeshades wrote:

Since Ultimate combat came out I wouldn't build a rogue without the Ki pool talent and the vanising trick and invisible blade ninja tricks.

Invisible you get +2 to your attack and deny your opponent's Dex bonus to ac, which means you get to hit much more reliably, and don't actually have to flank or spend time trying to hide again before making your next attack to get sneak attack. Also you are much harder to hit, or even find.

Unfortunately, without getting the master tricks this will only ever net 1 sneak attack per round.

If we were talking ninja, I'd totally agree since at level 10 it's constant sneak damage, but for the rogue it's a 2 feat dip for a good ability, that won't scale well with level. Is it worth it? probably, but not on every build (for instance the ranged rogue I made won't do well with it since the feats required is so tight to make it work).


The biggest issue i have with threads like that is that in my experience to date no two people who have issues with the rogue can agree on what that want the rogue to do- and that's been true since they were called thieves. I've played a myriad of different takes on the class depending on who was in the dms seat. Most were okay, they tended to focus on one aspect of the class over others.

Grand Lodge

Freehold DM wrote:
The biggest issue i have with threads like that is that in my experience to date no two people who have issues with the rogue can agree on what that want the rogue to do- and that's been true since they were called thieves. I've played a myriad of different takes on the class depending on who was in the dms seat. Most were okay, they tended to focus on one aspect of the class over others.

True, but at the same time it gets you thinking a bit when you do focus on certain aspects. Like Archeologist vs Rogue for traps. Vivisectionist vs Rogue for sneak attack damage. Ninja vs Rogue for sneak attack.. kind gets moofs


Right one was a master trick. Never mind me.


no thoughts on the performance archer build? I was really liking it, but feel like it has plenty of room for improvement/optimization.

I'd also like to say that it fills a niche that the bard and alchemist can't fill as well.

The build itself requires numerous feats to be effective, and the rogue essentially gets 2 bonus feats for free (weapon training, combat trick), that allow the build to be fleshed out in a way that benefits the rogue.

I also liked the fact that the build focuses heavily on getting the to-hit up and successfully so if I do say so myself (+5 total, +3 from weapon training and +2 from dramatic display), because that's a killer for rogues. Finally, it also goes about making sure that you can reliable get sneak attack damage, which is better then deadly aim on a per-hit basis.

I also tried to give at least a +1 bonus in the important save areas, and since your not front line fighting, you can avoid some of the more dangerous areas better.

If I can find the room to get the build running one feat earlier, then a halfling rogue would be even better (+dex, +char fits nicely, and the bonus to-hit is always welcome). The halfling would lose 2 points in damage though, so it's probably not vital to start with.

For high level play later you can take the sap adept/master feats and use blunt arrows. You just don't have the feats early to make it work, but later you might be doing some serious damage by level 20. 4 sneak attacks with 18d6+36 nonlethal damage.

Thought I'd include some must-have equipment to really help the build shine:

- bracers of the falcon (and at higher levels bracers of archery)
- gloves of dueling (a free +2 bonus attack and damage yes please!)
- circlet of persuasion (helps with intimidate, performance checks, and you can be the party face)
- mithril breastplate (until dex is too high in which case switch to celestial armor, after that... umd mage armor wand)
- cloak of resistance (no brainer since saves need all the help it can get)
- wands (I'm assuming that with a circlet of persuasion and a non-dumped charisma you'll have UMD)
- High enchant bow (forget damage multipliers until bow is at +5, since to-hit is vital for this build, except the no concealment enchant bonus to cover you until improved precise shot comes online)
- boots of speed (because an extra attack is always amazing)

most the gear isn't surprising, but the gloves of dueling is SOOO important that I thought I'd mention it.


Atarlost wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

Strength rogue are a neat niche, but them being the arguable "best way" to play a rogue sickens me.

Ooh. That gives you -2 to saves against a Suggestion to try a dex/int bomb lobber alchemist.

You...

If I wasn't using ultimate campaign rules to retrain my rogue as an alchemist...


I think the main problem with the Rogue class is that too many people have played too many MMOs or other RPG's where Rogues are on of the top damage classes.

The Rogue is one of the best classes in the game when not in combat, and while in combat their damage is ok but they hamper, hinder, and disrupt the enemy, as well as support the rest of the group.

Things to remember.

1. When you are flanking you are also helping your team mate to flank as well.

2. Remember all those times when you were sneaking in a castle, sapped a guard, stole some documents, and lied your way out? Yeah, the fighter, and other classes with crappy skills were just kind of waiting back at the inn.

3. No melee class gets to pick its targets and situations nearly as well as a Rogue will. Set them up like you like and then spring on them when it is most opportune.

The Rogue is not going to be the best damage dealer, get over it. It is not the Rogue's job.
Same as.
Being the assassin is not going to be the job of the Paladin. Not his job.


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Sub_Zero wrote:

(also by this time it's an 85% chance to get off the perform check)

my percentages on performance checks are off the mark. At level 3 you only have a 40% chance to get the check off. A ciclet of persuasion will help enormously, as will the increasing bab. By level 7 (when it really matters) you have a 80% chance for it to go off.

The biggest problem is I thought you got your skill modifier, not just skill ranks.


Whisperknives wrote:
I think the main problem with the Rogue class is that too many people have played too many MMOs or other RPG's where Rogues are on of the top damage classes.

Actually, what I want from the rogue is to be able to consistently contribute to combat without acting like an idiot or pumping strength. Something like this


Marthkus wrote:
Whisperknives wrote:
I think the main problem with the Rogue class is that too many people have played too many MMOs or other RPG's where Rogues are on of the top damage classes.
Actually, what I want from the rogue is to be able to consistently contribute to combat without acting like an idiot or pumping strength. Something like this

Well that is never going to happen, because that home brewed class is ridiculously over powered and horribly thought out.

Grand Lodge

Whisperknives wrote:

I think the main problem with the Rogue class is that too many people have played too many MMOs or other RPG's where Rogues are on of the top damage classes.

The Rogue is one of the best classes in the game when not in combat, and while in combat their damage is ok but they hamper, hinder, and disrupt the enemy, as well as support the rest of the group.

Things to remember.

1. When you are flanking you are also helping your team mate to flank as well.

2. Remember all those times when you were sneaking in a castle, sapped a guard, stole some documents, and lied your way out? Yeah, the fighter, and other classes with crappy skills were just kind of waiting back at the inn.

3. No melee class gets to pick its targets and situations nearly as well as a Rogue will. Set them up like you like and then spring on them when it is most opportune.

The Rogue is not going to be the best damage dealer, get over it. It is not the Rogue's job.
Same as.
Being the assassin is not going to be the job of the Paladin. Not his job.

First off, hindering opponents - Fighter can hinder them /far/ better as the fighter is capable of getting the combat maneuver feats and can use a full bab to do them more properly.

1) When you are flanking you are also helping your teammate. So does a small sized familiar, or a creature summoned with summon monster 1. When you're flanking, you're also putting a barrier between you and an ally known as an enemy. So them getting to your side when things go south kinda is weakened.

2) Remember that time you snuck in the castle and got murdered by the guards? Or right, dead rogues tell no tales. Lets break this down..

First you suddenly went and did some solo. While you're off being solo the rest of the party has gotta watch you apparently waiting for when you get done with your solo suicide mission.

So, Lets just say somehow you get inside. Knocking out the guard? A typical guard is probably something like a fighter with a few levels. Thats d10 hp. And they probably have a pretty good con. If they were just level 3, with 14 con each.. You're looking at possibly dealing with 36 hp + a high flatfooted AC. As a fifth level rogue you get 3d6. Lets say your str is 14 as well. And you're using a d6+1 weapon. At max damage without getting a crit, you're looking at 9+18 or 27 points of damage.

So knocking out the guard probably isn't going to happen. Meanwhile the bard who went and did the same mission himself Targets the guards weak will save with a sleep spell.

Then stole documents? Sure, picking up an unattended object is pretty easy.

But lieing your way out? This means you're caught. And you've got a round to try and prove your innocence. If the bard was caught, he's got the ability to use a spell to give him a rather large boost to appear innocent.

3) Not really. The magus and bard have great methods of setting up the battlefield via magic.

And the assassin not being able to do the job of a paladin? Depends on what you think the job of a paladin is in the first place. But you are kinda taking diametrically opposed classes... Like saying "The table will never do the job of an airplane. This proves that cars and trucks are not the same!"

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Whisperknives wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Whisperknives wrote:
I think the main problem with the Rogue class is that too many people have played too many MMOs or other RPG's where Rogues are on of the top damage classes.
Actually, what I want from the rogue is to be able to consistently contribute to combat without acting like an idiot or pumping strength. Something like this
Well that is never going to happen, because that home brewed class is ridiculously over powered and horribly thought out.

No, it's not.


Espy Kismet wrote:

First off, hindering opponents - Fighter can hinder them /far/ better as the fighter is capable of getting the combat maneuver feats and can use a full bab to do them more properly.

1) When you are flanking you are also helping your teammate. So does a small sized familiar, or a creature summoned with summon monster 1. When you're flanking, you're also putting a barrier between you and an ally known as an enemy. So them getting to your side when things go south kinda is weakened.

2) Remember that time you snuck in the castle and got murdered by the guards? Or right, dead rogues tell no tales. Lets break this down..

First you suddenly went and did some solo. While you're off being solo the rest of the party has gotta watch you apparently waiting for when you get done with your solo suicide mission.

So, Lets just say somehow you get inside. Knocking out the guard? A typical guard is probably something like a fighter with a few levels....

Responding to these statements is almost pointless at this point. People who haven't bothered to read the OP will continue to ignore the entire thread and show up to say "Rogue is super awesome, you just don't what your doing". Its happened repeatedly and will continue to happen. It doesn't matter that it isn't true, and that it isn't the point of the thread anyway. I've just learned to ignore them.

frustrating I know....


Whisperknives wrote:


Well that is never going to happen, because that home brewed class is ridiculously over powered and horribly thought out.

Show some math or it is the most perfectly balanced class ever!


Whisperknives wrote:

I think the main problem with the Rogue class is that too many people have played too many MMOs or other RPG's where Rogues are on of the top damage classes.

The Rogue is one of the best classes in the game when not in combat, and while in combat their damage is ok but they hamper, hinder, and disrupt the enemy, as well as support the rest of the group.

Things to remember.

1. When you are flanking you are also helping your team mate to flank as well.

2. Remember all those times when you were sneaking in a castle, sapped a guard, stole some documents, and lied your way out? Yeah, the fighter, and other classes with crappy skills were just kind of waiting back at the inn.

3. No melee class gets to pick its targets and situations nearly as well as a Rogue will. Set them up like you like and then spring on them when it is most opportune.

The Rogue is not going to be the best damage dealer, get over it. It is not the Rogue's job.
Same as.
Being the assassin is not going to be the job of the Paladin. Not his job.

Anecdotal evidence, and one we've already heard. A Ranger can most definitely pick his targets and situations just as easily if not better. Heck an Inquisitor does all those things in #2 but can also fight their way out if they get caught.

We're not trying to out damage the Fighter or Barbarian. We're trying to be good enough in combat to not to be a detriment to the rest of the party. Otherwise your presence in the party just lets the DM throw more difficult encounters since every person in the group set the APL.


Sub_Zero wrote:

no thoughts on the performance archer build? I was really liking it, but feel like it has plenty of room for improvement/optimization.

I'd also like to say that it fills a niche that the bard and alchemist can't fill as well.

The build itself requires numerous feats to be effective, and the rogue essentially gets 2 bonus feats for free (weapon training, combat trick), that allow the build to be fleshed out in a way that benefits the rogue.

I also liked the fact that the build focuses heavily on getting the to-hit up and successfully so if I do say so myself (+5 total, +3 from weapon training and +2 from dramatic display), because that's a killer for rogues. Finally, it also goes about making sure that you can reliable get sneak attack damage, which is better then deadly aim on a per-hit basis.

I also tried to give at least a +1 bonus in the important save areas, and since your not front line fighting, you can avoid some of the more dangerous areas better.

If I can find the room to get the build running one feat earlier, then a halfling rogue would be even better (+dex, +char fits nicely, and the bonus to-hit is always welcome). The halfling would lose 2 points in damage though, so it's probably not vital to start with.

For high level play later you can take the sap adept/master feats and use blunt arrows. You just don't have the feats early to make it work, but later you might be doing some serious damage by level 20. 4 sneak attacks with 18d6+36 nonlethal damage.

Thought I'd include some must-have equipment to really help the build shine:

- bracers of the falcon (and at higher levels bracers of archery)
- gloves of dueling (a free +2 bonus attack and damage yes please!)
- circlet of persuasion (helps with intimidate, performance checks, and you can be the party face)
- mithril breastplate (until dex is too high in which case switch to celestial armor, after that... umd mage armor wand)
- cloak of resistance (no brainer since saves need all the help it can get)
- wands (I'm...

Overall, the build looks pretty good I'd think. You do lose out on performance weapon prof though, But as a ranged rogue, that could be okay.

Of course like my build, when you run into enemies who are immune to demoralize you run into trouble. Though you could move into more of a sniper position after that.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Sub zero, you're probably not getting much in the way of reply because you used fighter levels to fill in the holes in your build.

I do find it interesting in that the mere idea of flamboyant, performance archery being used to intimidate in combat is definitely a niche.

The fact remains that an archery build is feat intensive, and you're adding Intimidate spam to the cost. Ouch!

I concur with Toz that the rogue as presented there isn't overpowered. Is that the Kirthfinder Rogue? It would be a reasonable damage dealer, and its skill array didn't get buffed much. Talents almost all the same. Basically it made the Rogues rote attacks more dangerous, while making Sneak Attack a nice freebie if it applies. As worded, magical bonuses do apply to the double damage, but the lack of Str bonus to damage means you won't get overpowering assaults.

The amount of bleed damage the rogue can do over rounds becomes prodigious if it hits, but it's still got the medium BAB to contend with, so that isn't going to be much of a problem, and won't work against anything with fast healing, so it's good there's more options.

==Aelryinth


Sub_Zero wrote:

So Darche Schneider has inspired me to look into making a ranged rogue that works. I'd love some criticism on the build to see if we can't get it up to par together.

The first 2 levels will be weaponmaster fighter (mostly to accelerate the build), with a 3rd level of fighter at level 7 (this gets us weapontraining for a +3 bonus using gloves of dueling, and as we know rogues need to hit. It also gets us shatter defenses at level 7 which is much better then level 9). The rest of the levels will be thug rogue for the chance to cause fear.

20 point buy stats:
str-14
dex-18 (after racial)
con-12
int-7 (bumb this up to 8 and you can lower charisma to 12 for non-dump)
wis-12
char-14

Feats:
1. point blank shot, precise shot, dazzling display
2. heroes display
3. performing combatant
4. rapid shot
5. dramatic display
6. weapon focus
7. shatter defenses
8. -
9. snipers eye, masterful display
10. -
11. resiliency, improved precise shot
12. -
13. crippling strike, deadly aim

for the first 2 levels your just a run of the mill fighter using a bow. Level 3 allows you to start making intimidate checks as a swift action. (or I should say gives us a 65% chance to intimidate as a swift action).

By level 5, we can choose to intimidate, or add a +2 attack via dramatic display. Are attack bonus isn't lagging as far behind a traditional rogue, and the 2 arrows should still pack enough punch to be relevant. (note: intimidate will last 2+ turns meaning we get the +2 attack at least every other round). (also by this time it's an 85% chance to get off the perform check)

At level 7 we get shatter defenses (still later then I'd like, but earlier then level 9 like a pure rogue), and our iterative attack. (the perform check now auto goes off

The best part about this is that we get to intimidate as a swift action, and the first hit will cause the opponent to be prone to sneak attacks. This means we aren't eating up precious resources, to get this off. Furthermore at level 9 masterful display will...

n/m I take back the entire thing. Performance combat is completely worthless, and poorly designed.

Getting a max +8 bonus from bab and skill is just stupid (at level 16). I thought the check was Charisma + bab + performance rank, which would have been fine (at low levels it works sometime, and later it becomes reliable). But alas it's not. instead a 6 bab will net you a +2 followed by another +2 from having 6 ranks in perform.

This means even with a circlet of persuasion and +2 charima you'd only get it to go off on an 11 by level 7.

having an ability work 50% of the time by level 7 is terrible.

so sad, if performance checks were so terribly high it might have been a viable build....


You are only going for a 20dc.

With my version, I get Performance weapon stuff..

+2 from Performance weapon
+2 from the Performance Feat
+2 from Bab
+2 from Perform Act
+3 from Cha..

So before I get anything magic or other wise, I'm at the 11, needing to roll 9 or higher.

+2 cha gives me 8 or higher.


Darche Schneider wrote:

You are only going for a 20dc.

With my version, I get Performance weapon stuff..

+2 from Performance weapon
+2 from the Performance Feat
+2 from Bab
+2 from Perform Act
+3 from Cha..

So before I get anything magic or other wise, I'm at the 11, needing to roll 9 or higher.

+2 cha gives me 8 or higher.

I just don't consider that worthwhile. Even with a circlet of persuasion you'll not get your bonuses 25% of the time. that means that you have a real shot of not getting what you need at the clutch moment. If this was at levels 1-5 it'd be fine. The character can ride on the decent bab and dex then. By level 7 you're missing out on some seriously required bonuses if you don't roll above a 5.

no hate towards your build intended, I just don't consider it worthwhile for how unreliable it is, especially if you don't have a perform weapon.


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Whisperknives wrote:
I think the main problem with the Rogue class is that too many people have played too many MMOs or other RPG's where Rogues are on of the top damage classes.

Can't speak for anyone else, but my main problem with the rogue is how difficult it is for an iconic rogue (dex, light weapon) to do the things that people seem to believe he should be able to do handily. Some of this is playstyle, some of it is expectation, and some of it is just not getting it.

See, most of my groups' combats happen in two general battleground types. Doorways/constrained areas, and long range.

In a breaching fight, a rogue cannot reliably flank in my experience. IF he can SOMEHOW manage to defeat the CMD of multiple targets to move through them safely, he'll find himself behind enemy lines where the next wave of fodder (or miniboss) is ready to reduce him to slimy paste, because he's now the first or only viable target.

In an open fight, rogues can sometimes flank. Circumstances depend on the actual fight and the tactics used to approach it. Most of the time, the rogues I've dealt with, just can't get to the target before something else (usually some kind of summoned creature) has charged or pounced into range and is blocking access.

With UC and 'Ooh, I'm a prancing pony' Performance Combat, maybe you can do neat things in combat with a rogue, but I believe it's still easier to mess up and make a useless rogue than it is to make one that's interesting and useful. Out of combat, the utility of any given rogue is constrained or boosted by the GM. I can't say much about out of combat utility because my GMs tend to make omg-deadly traps that only the party rogue can solve, if one exists, or not so much if there is no rogue.


Espy Kismet wrote:
Whisperknives wrote:

I think the main problem with the Rogue class is that too many people have played too many MMOs or other RPG's where Rogues are on of the top damage classes.

The Rogue is one of the best classes in the game when not in combat, and while in combat their damage is ok but they hamper, hinder, and disrupt the enemy, as well as support the rest of the group.

Things to remember.

1. When you are flanking you are also helping your team mate to flank as well.

2. Remember all those times when you were sneaking in a castle, sapped a guard, stole some documents, and lied your way out? Yeah, the fighter, and other classes with crappy skills were just kind of waiting back at the inn.

3. No melee class gets to pick its targets and situations nearly as well as a Rogue will. Set them up like you like and then spring on them when it is most opportune.

The Rogue is not going to be the best damage dealer, get over it. It is not the Rogue's job.
Same as.
Being the assassin is not going to be the job of the Paladin. Not his job.

First off, hindering opponents - Fighter can hinder them /far/ better as the fighter is capable of getting the combat maneuver feats and can use a full bab to do them more properly.

1) When you are flanking you are also helping your teammate. So does a small sized familiar, or a creature summoned with summon monster 1. When you're flanking, you're also putting a barrier between you and an ally known as an enemy. So them getting to your side when things go south kinda is weakened.

2) Remember that time you snuck in the castle and got murdered by the guards? Or right, dead rogues tell no tales. Lets break this down..

First you suddenly went and did some solo. While you're off being solo the rest of the party has gotta watch you apparently waiting for when you get done with your solo suicide mission.

So, Lets just say somehow you get inside. Knocking out the guard? A typical guard is probably something like a fighter with a few levels....

1. Not sure what you're going for here. ..are you talking about sneak attack or something else?

2. Average guard with fighter levels? Bodyguard maybe - most guards I've used in game were warriors. If you're going in the no npc class direction, then that's a different situation entirely.

3. Just because they can do it doesn't mean the rogue cant. They simply have to be more patient. Then again, this is something that people have been complaining about since 2nd ed, especially when tome of magic and splatbooks got big. And once you start to go down the "this is my job it belongs to me, nobody else can do it to my tee" route, you're going to end up in weird, potentially table-flipping situations.


So what's a "Pure Rogue"? If people can't suggest a ninja build, clarified as a rogue archetype by the lead designer of this game, why are people allowed to use any other archetype? Scout gets thrown around a lot here because it's the easiest way to get sneak attack. Why are other classes allowed to use archetypes that give them rogue skills like trap finding? Why do the goal posts keep moving?


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Khrysaor wrote:
Why do the goal posts keep moving?

they don't, you just don't wanna accept the fact that this thread is not talking about the ninja. Now can you please move on, this is getting old.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Khrysaor wrote:
So what's a "Pure Rogue"? If people can't suggest a ninja build, clarified as a rogue archetype by the lead designer of this game, why are people allowed to use any other archetype? Scout gets thrown around a lot here because it's the easiest way to get sneak attack. Why are other classes allowed to use archetypes that give them rogue skills like trap finding? Why do the goal posts keep moving?

Dude seriously. When something replaces everything the class has, you can hardly call it an archetype. Thats why it's called an Alternate Class.

The Ninja replaces everything, not just a couple of class features.

Silver Crusade

Scavion wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:
So what's a "Pure Rogue"? If people can't suggest a ninja build, clarified as a rogue archetype by the lead designer of this game, why are people allowed to use any other archetype? Scout gets thrown around a lot here because it's the easiest way to get sneak attack. Why are other classes allowed to use archetypes that give them rogue skills like trap finding? Why do the goal posts keep moving?

Dude seriously. When something replaces everything the class has, you can hardly call it an archetype. Thats why it's called an Alternate Class.

The Ninja replaces everything, not just a couple of class features.

Except you're wrong, because the people who developed the game confirmed it counts as a rogue archetype. Somebody even quoted the post earlier.


Sub_Zero wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:
Why do the goal posts keep moving?
they don't, you just don't wanna accept the fact that this thread is not talking about the ninja. Now can you please move on, this is getting old.

Did I post a ninja build? Did I suggest ninja at all? The only comment I made regarding a ninja was to post Jason Bulmahn's official response stating that an alternate class IS an archetype of the base class.

Don't tell someone to leave a thread because you don't agree with them. Bigotry isn't tolerated on any forum.

Edit: This thread is really, "let's make the rogue work but remove the aspects that make the rogue work."

Silver Crusade

Khrysaor wrote:
Sub_Zero wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:
Why do the goal posts keep moving?
they don't, you just don't wanna accept the fact that this thread is not talking about the ninja. Now can you please move on, this is getting old.

Did I post a ninja build? Did I suggest ninja at all? The only comment I made regarding a ninja was to post Jason Bulmahn's official response stating that an alternate class IS an archetype of the base class.

Don't tell someone to leave a thread because you don't agree with them. Bigotry isn't tolerated on any forum.

Edit: This thread is really, "let's make the rogue work but remove the aspects that make the rogue work."

Exactly. I'm not sure why I keep coming back to this thread. Every time I suggest something, somebody comes up with some ridiculous reason why it won't work and then stuffs their fingers in their ears when I try to explain why it will. It's like people just want to get butthurt over the rogue being a viable class.

Grand Lodge

Sub_Zero wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:
Why do the goal posts keep moving?
they don't, you just don't wanna accept the fact that this thread is not talking about the ninja. Now can you please move on, this is getting old.

Pretty much this. we do throw in a few archetypes here and there, but the ninja is a lot more than just a little archetype being used.

Otherwise we might as well throw in investigator or slayer when the book comes out here soon to be like "Oh look! Rogues are useful if gestalted with class X"

A lot of our problems with it, stem from underwhelming abilities, and archetypes, along with 'ability charity', giving our stuff away to other classes. As well as over all rather complicated feat dependency due to being a martial type class.

I mean just look at some of the talents you can get, like the Scholar one that lets you /once per day/ make a knowledge check untrained. Can I not describe how underwelming this is? And while every class has a few dud abilities like this, for the rogue it keeps popping up with a good number of their talents.

A good number of them are once per day. Another number are just feats.
A few add in more class skills.. some mod sneak attack a little bit. Often being actually weaker too. Powerful sneak for example, You have to have a full round attack, and you take a -2 penalty to the attack rolls? Oh boy!


A ninja is a rogue archetype. The lead designer of this game has said as much. Why do you keep clinging to each other and arguing this isn't true. Use the search option and look up Jason Bulmahn. Read his posts. He is the lead designer of this game and has stated that alternate classes ARE archetypes of the base class.

If you don't like it, change the parameters of the thread to include as much or move the thread to home brews because this is no longer advice on the current game.

Grand Lodge

First off.. You should /probably/ read what he actually said.

He didn't say "Alternative classes are archetypes."

He said they are basically. Not quite the same thing there as NINJA IS ARCHETYPE OF ROGUE! like you continue to proclaim.

Jason wrote:
Alternate classes are really just expanded archtypes. The distinction is that for an alternate class, we represent all of the rules needed to run the class. It is similar to its base, but has a significant number of swaps. There are certainly some archtypes that could have received this treatment, but we chose to leave them as more abbreviated write ups.

Like how the Magus is really just the Eldritch knight.. but it has so much more changes to it that make it NOT the Eldritch knight. It is NOT a fighter. it is NOT a wizard.

It is something else entirely, that runs off fairly similar rules as to the three parts it is made of.

by saying alt classes are archetypes you are also saying wizards are spontanous casters, rogues have infusions and barbiarns are divine spell casters.

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