But at least it DOES something. :)
Yep 40,000 gold to be able to do better than base weapon damage on ranged attacks.
Or you could play a UMD focused commoner and have wands of fireball, lightning bolt, sorching ray and magic missile for that price. Maybe a wand of flameblade too for melee.
But at least it DOES something. :)Yep 40,000 gold to be able to do better than base weapon damage on ranged attacks.
Or you could play a UMD focused commoner and have wands of fireball, lightning bolt, sorching ray and magic missile for that price. Maybe a wand of flameblade too for melee.
see I told you commoners were broken....
stupid OP commoners grumble grumble grumble.....
Funny, the PF rogue gained in EVERY aspect as compared to the 3.5 rogue, and people constantly moan about how terrible it is.
OK, maybe it didn't gain in EVERY aspect, but all of the changes to the rogue class from 3.5 to PF involved giving the rogue more power, not less.
PF rogue lost ONE thing -- Blink sneak attacks. That's it.
But still -- not enough.
Let me ask an off the cuff question. PF rogue in E8 -- still terrible?
Edit: Note, E8 allows for Greater Invisibility, which a PF rogue can use via (expensive) scrolls, wands, and potions to build the same powerhouse ranged sneak attack builds as before -- arguably better with the changes to archery.
Yeah? that's the only thing rogues lost? how about having the tumble checks have laughable DC in 3.5 and be tied in CMD in PF?
You know something is very wrong when the solution is "leth this other character with another class dothe hard work"
yes, the rogue gained in most aspects compared to the previous addition, I'll grant that as fact. Now, lets move onto the point of this thread. Build a rogue that is competitive with the improved pf material. Rather then criticizing why it isn't enough, show us how you would build a competitive rogue.<Shrug>
Go with all the archery feats and Leadership. Take a Warlock cohort with Beshadowed Blast. Hold your actions until after the warlock cohort blinds enemies. Pew pew sneak attacks with your bow.
That's ONE idea (yeah, I know Warlock isn't PF, but there is probably some other class that can do more or less the same thing). Since rogue benefits more from allies than most other classes, Leadership should be central to an optimized rogue build.
No... no, that's not what I said at all.
Think of it this way -- which duo can do more damage per round, the blinding warlock I mentioned above paired with a ranged rogue, or the blinding warlock I mentioned above paired with a copy of himself?
(Hint -- it's the warlock/rogue combo)
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Rogues gained class features in PF, but lost out because their core identity got sucked away.
1) They were the skill monkeys. This has arguably moved over to bards, who can get multiple skills based on Performance, plus a hefty bonus to all skills, especially Knowledge.
2) They were the skill monkeys. Now, the skills have been consolidated. Tumble and Jump are together. Search and Spot are together. Open Lock and Disable Device are together. Move Silently and Hide in Shadows are together.
Fewer skills mean it is much, much easier for other classes to take Skill Ranks in key skills, this rendering your tons of skill points less and less relevant.
It's sort of like giving every other class two wizard spells per level. Suddenly, the wizard isn't so special, even though he gets more wizard spells then anyone else.
3) The penalty for cross-classing skill ranks were removed, both the max limit and the total cost. This means everyone feels pretty free to grab cross-class skills, which were onerous to do in 3.5. So, they grab STealth and Perception, and are at worst only +3 ranks worse then the Rogue, and instead of blowing 8 skill points on four out of class skills, they blow 2.
Yeah, 6 points of difference. HUGE.
4) Trapfinding became available to multiple classes with better side features. The last unique thing about the rogue was handed away. (Sneak Attack being given away is not unique, assassins have it).
These are the issues the rogue faces in PF. Sneak Attack is actually rather better here, since not as many creatures are outright immune to it. All other issues, saves, etc, are carryovers.
They did get an improved d8 HD.
The big issue is the Rogue lost its heart and soul of skill points. Indeed, its main competition, the ranger, both gained skill points and with skill consolidation, those points go further.
==Aelryinth
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You know something is very wrong when the solution is "leth this other character with another class dothe hard work"
yes, the rogue gained in most aspects compared to the previous addition, I'll grant that as fact. Now, lets move onto the point of this thread. Build a rogue that is competitive with the improved pf material. Rather then criticizing why it isn't enough, show us how you would build a competitive rogue.<Shrug>
Go with all the archery feats and Leadership. Take a Warlock cohort with Beshadowed Blast. Hold your actions until after the warlock cohort blinds enemies. Pew pew sneak attacks with your bow.
That's ONE idea (yeah, I know Warlock isn't PF, but there is probably some other class that can do more or less the same thing). Since rogue benefits more from allies than most other classes, Leadership should be central to an optimized rogue build.
No... no, that's not what I said at all.
Think of it this way -- which duo can do more damage per round, the blinding warlock I mentioned above paired with a ranged rogue, or the blinding warlock I mentioned above paired with a copy of himself?
(Hint -- it's the warlock/rogue combo)
Yes the warlock/warlock combo might not do as much, but the:
warlock/barbarian, warlock/fighter, warlock/alchemist, warlock/monk, warlock/paladin, warlock/inquisitor, warlock/pretty much any dps build will do better then the rogue combo.
If were just talking the leadership feat, then any/every class will benefit immensely by being able to pick a class that combo's with it.
Besides, the very fact that you have need another person to make the rogue work is a glaring weakness of the rogue, especially when their supposed to be the scout of the party.
You know something is very wrong when the solution is "leth this other character with another class dothe hard work"
yes, the rogue gained in most aspects compared to the previous addition, I'll grant that as fact. Now, lets move onto the point of this thread. Build a rogue that is competitive with the improved pf material. Rather then criticizing why it isn't enough, show us how you would build a competitive rogue.<Shrug>
Go with all the archery feats and Leadership. Take a Warlock cohort with Beshadowed Blast. Hold your actions until after the warlock cohort blinds enemies. Pew pew sneak attacks with your bow.
That's ONE idea (yeah, I know Warlock isn't PF, but there is probably some other class that can do more or less the same thing). Since rogue benefits more from allies than most other classes, Leadership should be central to an optimized rogue build.
No... no, that's not what I said at all.
Think of it this way -- which duo can do more damage per round, the blinding warlock I mentioned above paired with a ranged rogue, or the blinding warlock I mentioned above paired with a copy of himself?
(Hint -- it's the warlock/rogue combo)
Yes the warlock/warlock combo might not do as much, but the:
warlock/barbarian, warlock/fighter, warlock/alchemist, warlock/monk, warlock/paladin, warlock/inquisitor, warlock/pretty much any dps build will do better then the rogue combo.
If were just talking the leadership feat, then any/every class will benefit immensely by being able to pick a class that combo's with it.
Besides, the very fact that you have need another person to make the rogue work is a glaring weakness of the rogue, especially when their supposed to be the scout of the party.
that is my problem with the rogue. they can't bear their own burden, so they rely on a member of another, superior base class, to carry the burden for them. either way, a rogue can't function without either a personal caster buddy whose whole purpose is to buff him and set him up for sneak attacks, or a caster willing to provide him with an excessive amount of consumables tailored to his needs.
the fact that the werebat suggested the use of a member of another class to make the rogue shine, is pretty much admitting the rogue can't bear their own burden
leadership, is not a class feature.
the fact that the werebat suggested the use of a member of another class to make the rogue shine, is pretty much admitting the rogue can't bear their own burden
leadership, is not a class feature.
Leadership is a core feat. Some DMs may have house rules that it isn't allowed, but this discussion was supposed to be about core rules, not house rules.
The rogue benefits more from Leadership than most other classes do. That, in and of itself, does not make those other classes "superior".
I hear the CLAIM that a fighter with a wizard cohort would be superior to a rogue with a wizard cohort, but I'm not seeing the numbers to back it up. If you're so sure, let's see the numbers.
The rogue/warlock duo I mentioned first works very well because the warlock doesn't have to be doing anything he wouldn't ordinarily be doing anyway in order to set up the rogue for his sneak attacks. And a tweaked out archer rogue who gets sneak attacks more often than not is going to dish out huge DPR on average.
I could demonstrate the DPR I'm talking about but it seems that some people are emotionally attached to the idea that the rogue CANNOT work without house rules, and will jam their fingers in their ears and start screaming if an example to the contrary rears its head.
Fine. You have made your decision.
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I could demonstrate the DPR I'm talking about but it seems that some people are emotionally attached to the idea that the rogue CANNOT work without house rules, and will jam their fingers in their ears and start screaming if an example to the contrary rears its head.
Fine. You have made your decision.
Words are wind.
Yeah? that's the only thing rogues lost? how about having the tumble checks have laughable DC in 3.5 and be tied in CMD in PF?
I'll give you that. True, Tumble got harder. OTOH, rogues gained a lot skillwise in the sense that many rogue skills got consolidated, so maxing out Acrobatics (itself a consolidated skill) isn't as hard/painful as it used to be. A rogue with maxed out Acrobatics is still going to make those tumble checks most of the time.
Remember what a barbarian can do with a synthesist mount. Leadership tends to skew. This is why we avoid it.
Magic Ring that casts a quickened summon monster I spell when a command word is spoken (unlimited uses): 63,000 gp.
This allows our rogue to make unlimited melee sneak attacks per day.
Boom.
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Remember what a barbarian can do with a synthesist mount. Leadership tends to skew. This is why we avoid it.
I don't care if a barbarian can do it too. The point is that the rogue can do it.
If you're pulling out the synthesist as an example of what the rogue needs to be able to compete with in order to pass your test, then I give up.
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Custom items make for horrible arguments.
That's a handwave, not a dismissal.
I'm seeing a lot of backpedaling going on here -- "Well, THAT use of the core rules doesn't COUNT..."
Heh. Some of you really don't want to let go of your teddy bears.
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Remember what a barbarian can do with a synthesist mount. Leadership tends to skew. This is why we avoid it.I don't care if a barbarian can do it too. The point is that the rogue can do it.
If you're pulling out the synthesist as an example of what the rogue needs to be able to compete with in order to pass your test, then I give up.
I'm just saying leadership might be a bad argument to make. Because if the rogue can get leadership. Why can't everyone else?
I'm just saying leadership might be a bad argument to make. Because if the rogue can get leadership. Why can't everyone else?
They can, but they will not benefit from it as much (if it is done right).
As I said, the warlock example I used works well because it admits a cohort who isn't going to be doing anything other than what he would ordinarily do, and in the process of doing it he will be setting up the rogue for massive DPR via ranged sneak attacks.
All we need to do is find a core class that can do the same and we're in, unless you think that even a rogue who gets full ranged sneak attacks in more often than not is still not competitive with the other core classes.
Again I ask, if PF Blink worked the way it did in 3.5, would you still think that the rogue class was underpowered?
the fact that the werebat suggested the use of a member of another class to make the rogue shine, is pretty much admitting the rogue can't bear their own burden
leadership, is not a class feature.
Leadership is a core feat. Some DMs may have house rules that it isn't allowed, but this discussion was supposed to be about core rules, not house rules.
The rogue benefits more from Leadership than most other classes do. That, in and of itself, does not make those other classes "superior".
I hear the CLAIM that a fighter with a wizard cohort would be superior to a rogue with a wizard cohort, but I'm not seeing the numbers to back it up. If you're so sure, let's see the numbers.
The rogue/warlock duo I mentioned first works very well because the warlock doesn't have to be doing anything he wouldn't ordinarily be doing anyway in order to set up the rogue for his sneak attacks. And a tweaked out archer rogue who gets sneak attacks more often than not is going to dish out huge DPR on average.
I could demonstrate the DPR I'm talking about but it seems that some people are emotionally attached to the idea that the rogue CANNOT work without house rules, and will jam their fingers in their ears and start screaming if an example to the contrary rears its head.
Fine. You have made your decision.
the fact the rogue requires the most frequently banned feat in the entire game, or items created using the most frequently banned section of the core rules to be effective, or *Gasp* the help of a class from a previous incarnation of the game whom despite being also underpowered, is still better than the rogue
do you have any arguements for the rogue working that work in a traditional game that bans the leadership feat and custom items created using the back of the core rulebook?
i'm not seeing the whole "a Rogue can shine on her own merits", i'm seeing, "a Rogue can be made effective with a pocket spellcaster or custom item to set her up"
thing is, leadership is merely a method to gain this pocket spellcaster, and requires you to be 7th level in a game that actually bothers to allow it. which most traditional tables, and all of organized play bans. the item isn't really practical till like 13th-15th level due to the 50% on one item rule and really may not be available till past 17th or even not at all. it also requires a caster to craft. where do you get this pocket caster whom will spend 2 months of his time crafting this item for you? either you delay the adventure for 2 months, or you die adventuring before the 2 months are completed to buy an item worth 4 times the maximum value you can find in any metropolis.
So is werebat going to post a build like people who have points to make did, or is he going to clutter up the thread with nonsense?
Not much point in it, is there? It's already been decided that rogue is severely underpowered because PF changed Blink (which means that rogue was previously a class whose utility depended entirely on the wording of one third level spell).
Any proof to the contrary will be met with a chorus of "that rule doesn't count!", "wellyeahbut", etc.
You've made your decision.
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So is werebat going to post a build like people who have points to make did, or is he going to clutter up the thread with nonsense?Not much point in it, is there? It's already been decided that rogue is severely underpowered because PF changed Blink (which means that rogue was previously a class whose utility depended entirely on the wording of one third level spell).
Any proof to the contrary will be met with a chorus of "that rule doesn't count!", "wellyeahbut", etc.
You've made your decision.
ahh yes, the very mature "they criticized my idea therefore they're not open to any idea's" shtick. How about you take a page from many of the others who've posted builds here that were met with criticism, and not take it so personally. Heck, why not look back over many of the previous pages where people have put up some really fun/good rogue builds that were well thought out.
The fact of the matter is, you're saying that to make a rogue work you need to take a feat that lets you play a second character. You've then defended said feat, and said "I hear the CLAIM that a fighter with a wizard cohort would be superior to a rogue with a wizard cohort, but I'm not seeing the numbers to back it up", but let me put another spin on it.
How often would any other class choose a rogue with the leadership feat, because it's the superior choice? If the answer is none, then you have a problem.
Also, why would I waste time putting up numbers when you haven't bothered too?
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So is werebat going to post a build like people who have points to make did, or is he going to clutter up the thread with nonsense?Not much point in it, is there? It's already been decided that rogue is severely underpowered because PF changed Blink (which means that rogue was previously a class whose utility depended entirely on the wording of one third level spell).
Any proof to the contrary will be met with a chorus of "that rule doesn't count!", "wellyeahbut", etc.
You've made your decision.
ahh yes, the very mature "they criticized my idea therefore they're not open to any idea's" shtick. How about you take a page from many of the others who've posted builds here that were met with criticism, and not take it so personally. Heck, why not look back over many of the previous pages where people have put up some really fun/good rogue builds that were well thought out.
The fact of the matter is, you're saying that to make a rogue work you need to take a feat that lets you play a second character. You've then defended said feat, and said "I hear the CLAIM that a fighter with a wizard cohort would be superior to a rogue with a wizard cohort, but I'm not seeing the numbers to back it up", but let me put another spin on it.
How often would any other class choose a rogue with the leadership feat, because it's the superior choice? If the answer is none, then you have a problem.
Also, why would I waste time putting up numbers when you haven't bothered too?
it's not a matter of the rogue's own ability to contribute, it's a matter of a completely different character setting up the rogue to make the rogue look good.
it's not the rogue whom is shining. it is the wizard, warlock or other caster shining through their rogue marionette because a rogue is their "inferior" "weapon of choice."
the rogue thinks they are in control while they tilt at windmills, really, the wizard is the one whom made it even possible for them to play outside of the kiddy pool at the water park.
Subzero has a few points here.
The biggest rogue nerfs of Pathfinder aren't in the class section.
Blink in 3.5 denies opponents their dex bonus letting a 3.5 rogue able to afford a ring of blinking can sneak attack 100% of the time against creatures that cannot see invisible.
Blink in PF does not deny opponents their dex bonus and therefore cannot be used to sneak attack.
In 3.5 you could sneak attack with splash weapons allowing rogues to sneak attack against touch AC.
In PF splash weapons cannot add precision damage. Sneak attack is specifically given as the example of damage that cannot be added to splash weapon attacks.
Very good points!
Thieves and skill monkeys? I'd take them as the cohort.
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Thieves and skill monkeys? I'd take them as the cohort.
sure, as skill monkeys they're not the worst choice. To be more specific, if you're looking for a combat oriented cohort, how often are you going to pick the rogue as the optimal choice.
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They can, but they will not benefit from it as much (if it is done right).
I'm just saying leadership might be a bad argument to make. Because if the rogue can get leadership. Why can't everyone else?
How is it "done right"?
Inter class synergy is rife in this game. A bard with a master summoner is a terror to deal with. Cavalier's riding druids or synthesists destroy games.
And let's be honest here. We would not be able to use this in PFS, or many home games. And since the example you stand-by is a 3.5 only class it won't fly in a lot of games that don't allow that material also.
And ultimately optimizers avoid using Leadership because it tends to skew things quite heavily in unwanted directions. It's a feeling that if your build relies on taking a feat to get a cohort to do a specific thing, then the build suddenly loses viability the moment that cohort dies or the gm simply says "no" to leadership.
Now, there are ways that rogues can get flanking partners in class. A carnivalist rogue for example can get up to three familiars. And unless I'm reading it wrong all three get half the rogue's sneak attack. It may even be possible one can inflict blindness.
Thieves and skill monkeys? I'd take them as the cohort.That's how you do it.
Tell your GM you're taking Leadership. When they say no, tell them you're making a rogue with crap physical stats and 20 intelligence. It'll just sneak around and pop out to unlock or disarm things. After combat it'll show up with a wand of cure light.
Will hide during combat and sulk in the corner of the local tavern while in town.
Sounds like a very sensible character, right up until the last sentence. Why would the rogue sulk when a tavern and the town beyond it are a perfect place to put those skills to use? For extra loot, for the greater good (if you want), and to help the party along as a whole.
"Here are all the maps of the region I could find, I've marked down some leads on possible treasure."My last major CG stealth char would use his time in town to investigate the corrupt. Then engage in arson and push along public ruination of the dodgy faiths and their shifty leaders.
"So where have you been?"
"That church we were a bit sus about was up to some shifty business. So they have been ruined, their temple burned down and here are the panties of their head priestess."
:O
Thieves and skill monkeys? I'd take them as the cohort.sure, as skill monkeys they're not the worst choice. To be more specific, if you're looking for a combat oriented cohort, how often are you going to pick the rogue as the optimal choice.
If I want to create a guild of assassins, I will take some rogues.
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I love playing my rogue.
Background
The campaign was started when 4th edition came out, using that system, and when our characters reached 4th level we decided we preferred 3.5 so we looked into Pathfinder and abruptly switched/transferred our 4th level characters to 4th level Pathfinder characters.
The setting is based in Waterdeep-Forgotten Realms. And I have a lot of fun in the acting/role-playing aspect of the character in addition to enjoying combat. My character, a street urchin who wormed his way into noble society, frequenting their parties, under a noble alias from Baldur's Gate, invests in disguise and knowledge local/nobility so he's not "combat maxed."
Near the end of 6th level my rogue "died" in a battle in which he fought an alchemist who poisoned him. While the alchemist's sister and their minions were fighting the rest of the party, my rogue intimidated the alchemist to retreat in the combined style of Inigo Montoya & The Man in Black ending scenes. It was beautiful. The enemies fled. My character stood leaning against our overturned wagon. The party congratulated my rogue. A minute later, a failed save against the poison, and he fell dead.
We use Hero Points (max points = 3 times current level) for various things (extra actions, recall spells, bonus to a d20 roll), and can use them as a dues ex machina to cheat death (at a cost of level + 1 Hero Points, if you have them at the time of death). Secretly I told the DM I would do so, but lied to the faces of the other players that I didn't have the Hero Points. That night, my rogues' body was stolen from the party. I "rolled" up a wizard (point buy) and introduced him in the next session.
On the side, confirming with my DM, I set the background that the body was left on a merchant ship traveling up the coast and was just "mostly dead." When he revived he soon found himself among pirates and worked his way up until he captained his own ship, and then...after two years of real time, 5.5 months in game time (with a timeline outlying when and where my rogue was on the high seas), my rogue returned to Waterdeep at the predetermined date. This literally happened last game. The party is now 11th level and we've entered the Gray Waste to rescue another character's sibling.
So I've only actively played this rogue in Pathfinder from 4th to 6th level (over about a year) and at 11th level (one session so far).
But I've loved every minute of it.
The Build Choices
Attributes
Dexterity is primary
Charisma is secondary
Strength and Intelligence are above average
Constitution is average
Wisdom is below average (not wise trying to pass as a noble, hehe).
Feats
Human Bonus: Agile Maneuvers
1st-level: Dodge
3rd-level: Alertness
5th-level: Mobility
7th-level: Leadership (his core ship's crew and first mate...background NPCs unless the rest of the party wants to travel the seas/become pirates for a while)
9th-level: Quick Draw
11th-level: Fleet
Rogue Talents
2nd-level: Finesse Rogue; Weapon Finesse
4th-level: Ledge Walker
6th-level: Combat Trick; Spring Attack
8th-level: Coax Information
10th-level: Skill Mastery: Acrobatics, Bluff, Slight of Hand, Stealth.
Skills
Acrobatics, Bluff, and Stealth are the only maxed out skills. But with rogue base 8 skill points per level, +1 for Intelligence, +1 for Human, and +1 for favored class (save for 2 levels where I took bonus hp), that's 11 skill points per level for 121 skill points (-2 for the hp) for a total of 119.
So
Acrobatics 11 ranks
Appraise 2 ranks
Bluff 11 ranks
Climb 7 ranks
Craft (cartography) 2 ranks
Diplomacy 7 ranks
Disable Device 4 ranks
Disguise 6 ranks
Escape Artist 5 ranks
Fly 1 rank
Intimidate 5 ranks
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 1 rank
Knowledge (Local) 2 ranks
Knowledge (Nobility) 1 rank
Knowledge (Nature-Oceans) 5 ranks
Linguistics 4 ranks
Perception 9 ranks
Profession (sailor) 3 ranks
Sense Motive 7 ranks
Slight of Hand 8 ranks
Stealth 11 ranks
Survival 2 ranks
Swim 4 ranks
Use Magic Device 1 rank
Conclusions
In playing a Pathfinder rogue for over a year plus one session...no complaints on the class. I've used bluff to feint in order to sneak attack when flanking hasn't been an option. I've had him survive several excursions into Undermountain. I've used intimidate to shaken a foe who had already killed him. I've established a false identity as a well-respected noble in a major city. I've become a feared pirate captain (albeit "off-stage"). And so on.
So concerning "We wish to make a rogue (PURE rogue) that can perform roguish functions while dealing enough damage in combat to be on par with his spellcasting peers (bards, aclehmists, etc.)."
Then, yeah. Between flanking and feinting I've felt my rogue's pulling his "damage weight" while filling social, stealth, and trap/lock roles. Or on the flip side, I've been annoyed when my rogue hasn't been able to gain flanking/feinting advantage just as much as I'm annoyed when enemies have made their saves against my wizard's spells.
Now if my rogue's going to survive the Gray Waste...that's a totally different question. Our colorful beacon of good-and-beauty Sunite Paladin leads me to think we're doomed, but that might just be the plane talking.
So much you can do playing a rogue. I think that is why the lovers of specialisation really like to try and take pieces off the rogue.
"Where is your damage HUH rogue?"
"I've felt my rogue's pulling his "damage weight" while filling social, stealth, and trap/lock roles."
The truth is in the pudding of play.
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So much you can do playing a rogue. I think that is why the lovers of specialisation really like to try and take pieces off the rogue.
"Where is your damage HUH rogue?"
"I've felt my rogue's pulling his "damage weight" while filling social, stealth, and trap/lock roles."
The truth is in the pudding of play.
Mmmm play-pudding, mmmmm :)
Now keep in mind the bards damage is consistent. Meaning he'll be able to do that damage virtually every combat without special circumstances set up to work for him.
I apologize if it’s bad form to pick up the conversation days later. I couldn’t get back sooner, but I did want to question this.
I may missing something, but I don’t see how this rogues damage output wouldn’t be consistent. In the example above, I excluded the surprise round because I thought I made my point well enough without it. The point is to just illustrate that a rouge can keep up with his ¾ BAB counterparts, correct? Keeping the bench mark at 6th level, I have an initiative at +9, and a Stealth at +12.
My primary tactic would be scouting ahead of the party, probably only 30ft ahead of the group. I’d be using stealth to peer into rooms, if I catch enemies unaware, I soften them up and retreat back 30ft to the waiting ambush that is my party.
So it would rather play out as such; the INT rogue is sneaking 30ft ahead of the group, using signs he moves ahead checks an area out, then signals an OK, before moving ahead.
He comes upon a room of enemies; let’s say he sees 4 boggards. With a Perception +4, the odds of them noticing me are not likely. If I roll an average (10), they only have a 15% chance of noticing me (18 or higher). Even if one notices me, Snap Shot ensures I’m going first in the surprise round.
In this situation, we’ll say the Bard has Heroism up. He’s waiting 30ft away with the group. He sure isn’t sneaking up with me with a Stealth of +3.
Surprise Round: Rogue uses deadly aim for a +9 to hit against AC 14 for 24pts of damage.
Round 1: Rouge should win Initiative here too with +9 to Init, score another 24 pts (48 total) of damage and move 30ft back. The sound of boggards croaking alerts my Archaeologist friend to activate Luck and cast Allegro. The bard is going nova.
Round 2: The remaining boggards come charging after the rogue. The bard now activates arcane strike as well giving him an impressive total of +17/+17 to hit, so he’ll use deadly aim as well (+15/+15). He does 24pts of damage. The rogue has a few options here as the combat is almost over. He could 1) Bluff and move to cover if available, or 2) shoot for another 13pts of damage. The Rogue is now at 61 vs. the Bards 24. I should note that if the Rogue went into cover, he only has 48 over the bards 24.
Round 3: The Hammer of the group is now cleaning up. The Bard hits for another 24 pts of damage and the Rogue hits for another 13 (Rogue 74 vs Bard 48). (I should note here too that if the Rogue found cover last round, he’d be attacking from Concealment this round which would make it Rogue 72 vs Bard 48).)
Round 4: Maybe boggard reinforcements arrived. Bard hits for another 24 and the rogue hits for 13. Rogue 87 vs Bard 72. (or maybe the Rogue goes back to a Bluff, Concealment, and Stealth, which gives us Rogue 72 and Bard 72).
Round 5: Bard hits for another 24 and Rogue hits for 13. We’re now at Rogue 100, vs Bard 96. (or if the Rogue “wasted” his time seeking concealment last round, he fires again from cover for 24. Rogue 96 vs Bard 96).
The point here is that this fairly un-optimized Rogue seems to hold his own. Gaining surprise and initiative should be consistent. I’m not sure that I agree that scouting ahead with Stealth and gaining an advantage for the group is “special circumstances”. I see it as creating circumstances for the success of the group.
Round 2: The remaining boggards come charging after the rogue.
I do have a slightly off topic question for the group. In this scenario during round 2, IF the boggards give chase, wouldn't the waiting PCs get some kind of bonus on surprising them. I can't find anything to support it by RAW, but I'd expect the boggards to be surprised when they run around the corner, expecting to see a running rogue, and instead they find a waiting barbarian, wizard, and alchemist.
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I know what you people say about ninjas and how they're not rogues (even though the high muckety-mucks said they are), but I have a ninja in a home game, now level 10, that can easily pump out 60 damage in a round without buffs and without spending ki. And to be honest, that character isn't even close to optimized. The charger also has +15 or better in 4 or 5 skills and has only failed one acrobatics check to get into flanking position. Oh, and I'm only 1 AC behind the paladin "tank" and that's without Offensive Defensive.
I would like to see the build on this.
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I love playing my rogue.
BackgroundThe Build Choices
Attributes
Dexterity is primary
Charisma is secondary
Strength and Intelligence are above average
Constitution is average
Wisdom is below average (not wise trying to pass as a noble, hehe).Feats
Human Bonus: Agile Maneuvers
1st-level: Dodge
3rd-level: Alertness
5th-level: Mobility
7th-level: Leadership (his core ship's crew and first mate...background NPCs unless the rest of the party wants to travel the seas/become pirates for a while)
9th-level: Quick Draw
11th-level: FleetRogue Talents
2nd-level: Finesse Rogue; Weapon Finesse
4th-level: Ledge Walker
6th-level: Combat Trick; Spring Attack
8th-level: Coax Information
10th-level: Skill Mastery: Acrobatics, Bluff, Slight of Hand, Stealth.
So first off let me say that the story you have going sounds great. It sounds like you're having a blast, and following the most important rule. With that said, compared to others who are semi-decently built you characters damage will have a hard time pulling his weight.
Looking at your build, it I'm guessing your using the scout archetype to pull extra damage, and since your not two-weapon fighting but using finesse I'm guessing your using a rapier.
With that said, your getting a single attack, that has a mediocre chance of hitting with ok damage at 4th-6th level, but will do terrible damage at 6+ when others will get iterative attacks.
Even at 5th level a greatsword fighter will be doing 2d6+6 (assuming 18 strength after racial)+ 6 (powerattack)+ 1 (weapon training) for a reliable 20 damage. The rogue will do 1d6+3d6 (sneak)+1-2 (depending on strength)= 15 damage. Whats worse is your to-hit will be far lower then the fighter.
Since it seems like my words are being constantly misinterpreted, let me clarify. I don't hate the rogue, or think they're not worth playing. I'm simply pointing out that there's nothing that the rogue is able to do that can't be matched by another class who will do it better. There are some builds that have stood up against scrutiny, but we haven't seen any of them in awhile.
@Fizzygoo, best of luck with your rogue, and I hope you keep up with the fun storyline.
A quick glance through some of the posts to remember what this thread was about tells me that the main problem is that the Rogue's niche is "skill monkey" and has lost a critical chunk of that in Pathfinder.
This might have been suggested already, but would it help if perhaps the Rogue gets a Skill Feat every level? I mean feats like Skill Focus, Acrobatics, and the other skill-boosters or similar feats that are based on skills. That would include the Intimidation feats, too.
At least, that seems like a good idea to me at the moment. :)
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Conversely they could set skill limits that when bypassed could mimick spells.
Stealth roll 30: whenever you roll over a 30 you mimick the invisibility spell.
Stealth roll 45+ : you mimick greater invisibility.
That would go along way to making rogues more viable.
Diplomacy= charm/dominate person
Intimidate= frightened/terrified
Sleight of hand replacing disarm for rogues/acrobatics for reposition or trip
I could continue, but this thread is about fixing the current rogue with the current rules.