Ladies and Gentlemen: It's time we made the rogue work.


Advice

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Much respect for TarkXT and other contributors who have provided unique builds. Excellent thread. Thank you for your creativity.

Two points that I'd like to bring up about rogue design that I'm hoping more experienced build experts can expand on for me.

One, the rogue in my RotRL game adds some damage, but most significantly he is dispelling magic with every hit. We're 14th level and he's removing buffs as well as my wizard does, but without messing up his action economy. In the higher level gameplay this has been an amazing asset he offers in addition to scouting. I'm shocked more rogue builds don't emphasize this utility, is there a reason it isn't brought up much?

Two, I feel like the rogue is the running back in our game. Yes, independently he has challenges, but when he's combined with my quarterback (wizard with control and buffs) he absolutely can hold his own and even thrive. In fact, the rogue seems to benefit more from my buffs than any other member of the party. While I agree that a rogue will be lackluster compared to a ranger much of the time, I would argue that a well supported and buffed rogue may surpass the ranger. I could use help designing a ranger and rogue to compare, but let's assume that each had haste, greater invisibility, and heroism (which are the buffs I get on the rogue asap every fight). Under these circumstances could the rogue shine?

Seeing as the nature of the game requires group coordination, maybe comparing a rogue with support and a ranger with support could reveal a situation where the rogue could shine?


Marthkus wrote:
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

You can bypass those with feats and talents and magic items:

Doing this exasperates other problems though.

Aside from this one weakness, I find the rogue class to be fairly balanced. Investing feats, talents, and archetypes cover a critical area that EVERY OTHER CLASS CAN DO!!!!! FOR FREE. Is an issue.

Examples for viable ranged attack options:
Fighters: throwing weapons or bows
Paladin: throwing weapons or bows
Barbarians: throwing weapons
Alchemist: Bombs
Monk: throwing weapons
Bard: Inspire courage + bows
Druid/Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer/Magus/With: spells

You have never been running a rogue and pulled off a sneak attack with a bow?

Liberty's Edge

I have 1 tip to improve the rogues ability to shine which I'm implementing myself at the moment; crafting
- Crafting traps is a gr8 way of gaining advantage in battles, u can either put up some tripping ropes to make enemies flatfooted while moving (difficult terrain) or throw some traps on them (small balls).
- but you can craft more, be creative! Build a small wall of oak with timber which u can use for battles for cover and stealth! Allows you to hit with your bow and deal sneak attack every round (except 1round, to put the wall down in front of you which was folded together hanging from your backpack).


So, late in the game... I haven't really any idea if this has been posted yet, but this is a character I've been touing with to try and take for a spin.

Meet Ragnar the Orc Swashbuckler (!)
(Alternatively, I'd dip for 1 lvl of fighter otherwise I'd have to... cheat)

Str 18; Dex 14; Con 13; Int 10; Wis 10; Cha 12
Feats/Talents:
1) Skill Focus (Intimidate)
2) Power Attack (T)
3) Furious Focus
4) Weapon Focus (Great Axe)(T); +1 Str
5) Dazzling Display
6) Intimidating Prowess (T)(The rogue talent version, of course)
7) Dodge (Doesn't hurt)
8) Shatter Defenses (T); +1 Str
9) Vital Strike
10)Crippling Strike (T) Just for fun...

At lvl 10, without any magic of any sorts, He'd have a +27 to his intimidate checks if he also got a trait bonus from somewhere. If he chose Persuasive instead of Dodge, he'd end up on +31. Watch that dragon cower in fear.... ;)
He'd be an okay debuffer and while they are shaken for the whole combat, he'll be able to Sneak Attack at will and adding extra juice to the beat down with Vital Strike...

What do you have to say about this guy?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
SiuoL wrote:

How does a rogue that can take 10 in 16 different skills anytime anywhere sounds to you, my friend? Ninja can't do it because he needed his Dex and Str for damage and attack. But if I only hit to get sneak attack, I have no need for such thing.

Archaeologist could properly beat me in Disable Device, but he can not do it with sleight of hand and stealth while take 10 in all them. Also he can't take 10 on escape artist to get to key and free my friends from jail. Can't take 10 means chance to roll a one. I never had to roll for those. Means zero chance to fail in all 16 skills.

Rolling a one isn't an auto-fail on skill checks, so being able to take 10 only matters on opposed checks where the DC varies.


Drachasor wrote:
Dragontamer wrote:
Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:

One of the problems with the Rogue is that they have trap finding, and traps are mostly worthless as they stand right now.

Fix the trap, and you'll fix the trap finder.

link

What he said. I've played in a campaign where blowing a trap is often a one shot kill. People very much care about rogues in that one.

At low levels a rogue is not much different from anyone else here.

There are lots of cheap magic items that grant big bonuses to finding traps.

Once you've found a trap, there are lots of ways to "disable" it without using "disable device". Though, anyone can use "disable device" on non-magic traps and items that boost disable device are cheap.

Overall, Trapfinding isn't horrible, but it is a distinctly minor ability. It's easily replaced by someone with Craft Wondrous Item and a bit of gold. Or no crafting and twice a bit of a gold.

Fair point, although the other thing I should have mentioned was that mostly it was the chests that contained the monster's loot that had these uber lethal traps. Blowing it usually destroyed the loot.


SiuoL wrote:
bfobar wrote:
Well, you could make the argument that if his character takes all the usual skills like perception, UMD, knowledges, diplomacy, etc, then the other characters are free to dump the crap out of intelligence and optimize damage. Heck, he could even take handle animal and control the druid summons. But, to win the thread, his character would have to be better than a jack of all trades type of skill bard. I think that might be hard because an archaeologist bard gets jack of all trades, several roguish abilities, and that luck bonus to add to everything. And as party buffing spellcaster, a party of a druid, sorcerer, and barbarian dumping intelligence and looking for a skill and support character that can disarm traps etc would probably like the bard more.

How does a rogue that can take 10 in 16 different skills anytime anywhere sounds to you, my friend? Ninja can't do it because he needed his Dex and Str for damage and attack. But if I only hit to get sneak attack, I have no need for such thing.

Archaeologist could properly beat me in Disable Device, but he can not do it with sleight of hand and stealth while take 10 in all them. Also he can't take 10 on escape artist to get to key and free my friends from jail. Can't take 10 means chance to roll a one. I never had to roll for those. Means zero chance to fail in all 16 skills.

Jack of All Trades (Ex)

At 10th level, the bard can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires him to be trained. At 16th level, the bard considers all skills to be class skills. At 19th level, the bard can take 10 on any skill check, even if it is not normally allowed.

Oops. The bard is better at this than you are, the archaeologist has trapfinding, can still take skill mastery, and has 6 levels of spell progression. This is the problem the thread is trying to fix. Yes your rogue build has a lot of skills and can take 10 in them. Unfortunately, it looks like a bard is even better at your build's job than your rogue. Unless you are using a trick I haven't thought of, but who knows since you won't post your build.


Scavion wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Dragontamer wrote:
What he said. I've played in a campaign where blowing a trap is often a one shot kill. People very much care about rogues in that one.
No, they care about people that can deal with traps, be it a rogue or not.

Yep. Seeker Oracle/Sorcerer, Urban Ranger, Archeologist all perform better than the Rogue in that regard. And then they perform better than the Rogue in a ton of other regards.

I've noticed a lot of talk about Ninjas in the thread. This thread was created to make the Base Rogue work. Ninjas are pretty much just being used as comparisons.

We know the ninja works. The goal of the thread was to make a Rogue who can perform admirably in combat in such a way that isn't completely inferior to another class.

Depending on your game philosophy, maybe this is a big part of the problem with rogues.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Saying the magus' ability to get +1/4 levels on his attacks doesn't matter is worse then saying full BAB doesn't matter. The magus is effectively getting full BAB AND a damage bonus.

So, yeah, class abilities that add TH mean 5% more chance to do damage with every attack. Fixed bonuses then up the average damage per attack. The cumulative effect is exactly why Martials deal so much damage.

I'll note that an Int-based rogue will still have no problem Aiding Another in combat, helping to flank, using UMD, tossing vials and applying potions, etc. It would just be very, very different.

But, yeah, he could easily take care of all the skill-based stuff. Whether or not the party appreciated his contributions since he'd be so underwhelming in combat is something else.

==Aelryinth


Gworeth wrote:

So, late in the game... I haven't really any idea if this has been posted yet, but this is a character I've been touing with to try and take for a spin.

Meet Ragnar the Orc Swashbuckler (!)
(Alternatively, I'd dip for 1 lvl of fighter otherwise I'd have to... cheat)

Str 18; Dex 14; Con 13; Int 10; Wis 10; Cha 12
Feats/Talents:
1) Skill Focus (Intimidate)
2) Power Attack (T)
3) Furious Focus
4) Weapon Focus (Great Axe)(T); +1 Str
5) Dazzling Display
6) Intimidating Prowess (T)(The rogue talent version, of course)
7) Dodge (Doesn't hurt)
8) Shatter Defenses (T); +1 Str
9) Vital Strike
10)Crippling Strike (T) Just for fun...

At lvl 10, without any magic of any sorts, He'd have a +27 to his intimidate checks if he also got a trait bonus from somewhere. If he chose Persuasive instead of Dodge, he'd end up on +31. Watch that dragon cower in fear.... ;)
He'd be an okay debuffer and while they are shaken for the whole combat, he'll be able to Sneak Attack at will and adding extra juice to the beat down with Vital Strike...

What do you have to say about this guy?

The usual. Since you gave up trap finding and are focusing on intimidate/damage/skills (I assume), Be a scarred rager instead of a rogue.

Toothy Alternate Trait
1) Power Attack
2) Intimidating Glare
3) Intimidating Prowess
4) Lesser Beast Totem
5) Skill Focus (Intimidate)
6) Beast Totem
7) Cornugon Smash
8) Terrifying Howl
9) Shatter Defenses (T); +1 Str
10)Greater Beast Totem

Now you're a claw/claw/bite pouncer (with a greataxe slung across your back and a longbow) with a higher intimidate and the ability to panic as well as make them shaken. I think a pouncing barbarian will out damage the rogue too. So what do I have to say? Your build works, it's not a bad build, but another class does the same thing better. It's clearly a rogue. Also, an inquisitor may be better than the barbarian at intimidate/damage/skills but I haven't checked that class for a build.

Shadow Lodge

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bfobar wrote:

Jack of All Trades (Ex)

At 10th level, the bard can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires him to be trained. At 16th level, the bard considers all skills to be class skills. At 19th level, the bard can take 10 on any skill check, even if it is not normally allowed.

Oops. The bard is better at this than you are, the archaeologist has trapfinding, can still take skill mastery, and has 6 levels of spell progression. This is the problem the thread is trying to fix. Yes your rogue build has a lot of skills and can take 10 in them. Unfortunately, it looks like a bard is even better at your build's job than your rogue....

And that makes me sad.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

and additionally, the bard's combat ability isn't grossly affected, since he just needs a 16 Cha to cast his best spells, and he's all about buffing others via Song or Spell.

Granted, he can't insta-kill someone at level 20, but for the other 19 levels, he'd be much more contributory in play. His own bardsong would make up for much of his lack of combat stats, and buff everyone else at the same time!

==Aelryinth


bfobar wrote:


The usual. Since you gave up trap finding and are focusing on intimidate/damage/skills (I assume), Be a scarred rager instead of a rogue.

Toothy Alternate Trait
1) Power Attack
2) Intimidating Glare
3) Intimidating Prowess
4) Lesser Beast Totem
5) Skill Focus (Intimidate)
6) Beast Totem
7) Cornugon Smash
8) Terrifying Howl
9) Shatter Defenses (T); +1 Str
10)Greater Beast Totem

Now you're a claw/claw/bite pouncer (with a greataxe slung across your back and a longbow) with a higher intimidate and the ability to panic as well as make them shaken. I think a pouncing barbarian will out damage the rogue too. So what do I have to say? Your build works, it's not a bad build, but another class does the same thing better. It's clearly a rogue. Also, an inquisitor may be better than the barbarian at intimidate/damage/skills but I haven't checked that class for a build.

Okay, first of all, I fail to see how your build is rogue, or did I miss something along the way?

I only reluctantly chose the Swashbuckler since that made me able to stay all rogue, though I sadly have to give up trapfinding.
To keep trapfinding, I'd toss in a level of fighter instead, but that would skew the feats and abilities a bit, though I'd keep going for the same build. That way, I suppose you could whip out your longbow and fill the poor shaken sods with lots of holes with arrows sticking out if you don't feel like whacking them with your Big Bad Axe (TM)


Gworeth wrote:
Okay, first of all, I fail to see how your build is rogue, or did I miss something along the way?

I'm pretty sure the build was meant to show how another class pulls off the same build, but does it better.


Yes, quite :-) Now I was lead to believe this thread was about rogues, rogue-builds and comparing then to their fellow 3/4 BaB brothers. That's why I was a bit confused ;-)

I can easily build a full BaB character that can easily out DPR most rogues. But it was my assumption that we were to go with standard rules and make viable and optimal rogues that might even be fun to play for real! :D


ChainsawSam wrote:

You specifically pointed out the Magus as being an equal.

I corrected you. With only one class feature. The Magus also has a solid assortment of spells that are effective at range and the ability to add their INT mod to their attack rolls.

So no, the Magus isn't the Rogue's equal in impromptu ranged combat. The Magus is ahead.

If you are going to post a build, be sure to talk about how you're going to reliably get the enemy flat footed for multiple rounds.

The Magus also has all martial proficiencies. The rogue has shortbow. The damage difference isn't much, but longer range brackets can be really handy in outdoor encounters against flying opponents. Magic's nice too. A smart magus carries some ranged spells past low levels.


DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

You can bypass those with feats and talents and magic items:

Doing this exasperates other problems though.

Aside from this one weakness, I find the rogue class to be fairly balanced. Investing feats, talents, and archetypes cover a critical area that EVERY OTHER CLASS CAN DO!!!!! FOR FREE. Is an issue.

Examples for viable ranged attack options:
Fighters: throwing weapons or bows
Paladin: throwing weapons or bows
Barbarians: throwing weapons
Alchemist: Bombs
Monk: throwing weapons
Bard: Inspire courage + bows
Druid/Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer/Magus/Witch: spells

You have never been running a rogue and pulled off a sneak attack with a bow?

Only in the surprise round. The 30ft limitation makes snipping difficult.


We haven't found that over the years. Large battlefields can present range problems for rogues, but that then allows more angles of attack, longer skirmishing distances (there, back again, hide in a wood, come back) but in a tight dungeon of rooms and hallways, the distance isn't really an issue.

If sniping close, don't forget you have withdraw just like everyone else, and you can lure them into the waiting party after a bit of scout sniping. Potions of invis, rings, getting out of view and coming back, there are plenty of ways to keep bringing the sneak attack to the fight.


Ah great, investing gold to be able to do 1 sneak attack every other round.


You want it easy don't you. You would like to just spam sneak attack (SA) all day?

SA is about preparation and circumstance. Yes you can use gold and your allies to get more sneak attacks, it is a team game where magic items are important. That isn't the only option. You can bluff to get sneak, stealth to get sneak, rush in and with good enough initiative get sneak before they are ready but as they are staring at you (I remember as a dm I was baffled once, when a rogue broke cover from the below decks, rushed out and shot a foe right in the face--because they had the best initiative).

As I said, you don't need to use magic options to get more sneak, but they are there. You can also control distance, engagement and skirmishing them out--rogues can skirmish sneak without magic items, it just takes longer. As they need the set up which they have to organise. The players needs to earn the sneak attacks, they are not free. If you go a feinting stealth rogue, you are looking at always bringing one to the table each round NOT every other round. For such a char, it is backstab or feint stab all the time (make sure you take a two handed weapon for the lols).


DM Under The Bridge wrote:

You want it easy don't you. You would like to just spam sneak attack (SA) all day?

SA is about preparation and circumstance. Yes you can use gold and your allies to get more sneak attacks, it is a team game where magic items are important. That isn't the only option. You can bluff to get sneak, stealth to get sneak, rush in and with good enough initiative get sneak before they are ready but as they are staring at you (I remember as a dm I was baffled once, when a rogue broke cover from the below decks, rushed out and shot a foe right in the face--because they had the best initiative).

As I said, you don't need to use magic options to get more sneak, but they are there. You can also control distance, engagement and skirmishing them out--rogues can skirmish sneak without magic items, it just takes longer. As they need the set up which they have to organise. The players needs to earn the sneak attacks, they are not free. If you go a feinting stealth rogue, you are looking at always bringing one to the table each round NOT every other round. For such a char, it is backstab or feint stab all the time (make sure you take a two handed weapon for the lols).

You keep saying that the one sneak attack per round is enough. Why not throw up a sample build with potential damage to demonstrate it.


What I want is to be able to do more than base weapon damage with ranged options like EVERYONE ELSE! Without wasting gold/feats/talents on it.

He's a situation for you. It may even sound familiar

"You are on the top of a tower with your party. A monster is floating 10ft away from the ledge and attacking with a reach weapon." What's a rogue to do?

Pull out bow and shoot for base weapon damage?
Draw daggers and hope it gets closer?

Every other class in the game has easy options for this scenario to contribute better than a commoner.


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Why are people taking someone with a name that includes "under the bridge" seriously? Does anyone not know what kind of creature traditionally lurks under bridges? Is "{Noun} Under The Bridge" any less obviously a joke than "AM {CLASS}" or "Mordo the Spaz, Forum Troll?"


Marthkus wrote:

What I want is to be able to do more than base weapon damage with ranged options like EVERYONE ELSE! Without wasting gold/feats/talents on it.

He's a situation for you. It may even sound familiar

"You are on the top of a tower with your party. A monster is floating 10ft away from the ledge and attacking with a reach weapon." What's a rogue to do?

Pull out bow and shoot for base weapon damage?
Draw daggers and hope it gets closer?

Every other class in the game has easy options for this scenario to contribute better than a commoner.

Er... if the ranger wants to do great damage with the bow, they have to spend a lot of gold.

First on the bow, then on the arrows. It gets costly. Once they get it, they are set for a while, but rangers have quite the gold tax.

They also have to spend feats to get into some of the better archery options (be better at short range or long range, better crits).

You know this yeah? Why the anger against the rogue having to use gold and feats to do more damage?


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Atarlost wrote:
Why are people taking someone with a name that includes "under the bridge" seriously? Does anyone not know what kind of creature traditionally lurks under bridges? Is "{Noun} Under The Bridge" any less obviously a joke than "AM {CLASS}" or "Mordo the Spaz, Forum Troll?"

That hurts me deep, it hurts me deep man!

Fortunately, I have regeneration.


Marthkus wrote:

What I want is to be able to do more than base weapon damage with ranged options like EVERYONE ELSE! Without wasting gold/feats/talents on it.

He's a situation for you. It may even sound familiar

"You are on the top of a tower with your party. A monster is floating 10ft away from the ledge and attacking with a reach weapon." What's a rogue to do?

Pull out bow and shoot for base weapon damage?
Draw daggers and hope it gets closer?

Every other class in the game has easy options for this scenario to contribute better than a commoner.

Only 10ft away?

Why wouldn't I try to leap on it (I bet I can pass a jump check as a nimble rogue!), ride it (good thing I had the skills for some ride), and then sneak attack it from the back as the rider? Rogues are about skills and ideas setting up the sneak attack, as I have tried to explain.

Playing a rogue, that is what I would do in that situation. 10ft away? You didn't even say it was higher elevated. It is a laugh riot and easy for a rogue to jump, ride and shiv.

Why I'd be half attempted to jump, ride it into the ground and then sneak attack it. For the lols.

Or jump, grapple it (with a high str grappler rogue build, which I've liked since 3.0) and cause it to crash and burn. Then kick the wreckage in the head with a sneak attack. Then walk away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqz5dbs5zmo

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

You can't use Ride on an enemy, just a mount. Better stick to the grapple idea.


Atarlost wrote:
Why are people taking someone with a name that includes "under the bridge" seriously? Does anyone not know what kind of creature traditionally lurks under bridges? Is "{Noun} Under The Bridge" any less obviously a joke than "AM {CLASS}" or "Mordo the Spaz, Forum Troll?"

My mistake.

Liberty's Edge

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Heard of "riding a bull?"

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
TorresGlitch wrote:
Heard of "riding a bull?"

Which is, oddly enough, a mount.


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Atarlost wrote:
Why are people taking someone with a name that includes "under the bridge" seriously? Does anyone not know what kind of creature traditionally lurks under bridges? Is "{Noun} Under The Bridge" any less obviously a joke than "AM {CLASS}" or "Mordo the Spaz, Forum Troll?"

Hey! Me not joke. Me funny.


"Monster" doesn't specify whether it is the can be ridden or can't be ridden kind.

What about a griffon or other magical creature that can be a mount? The creature wasn't specified. I am glad you liked the grapple idea TOZ (maybe rock a Grippli grappler rogue). If a griffon, why not a harpy? If a gecko, why not a drake? If a horse, why not a centaur? Some things could be mounts but the rules don't always stipulate it, because they don't always consider it. Goblins and diminutive characters riding odd things is old in fantasy, but why should they have all the fun when there are a lot of large creatures out there?

Ride is allowed on many flying creatures. If a dm wants to smash it down and say no no no, you have found a dm against what is fun and cool. They are confining the possibilities in fantasy to what has been handed down from on high.

So yeah, 10ft away hovering near a tower, ride it. If disallowed, go for grapple and try to crash it. If you can force it to make some fly checks and chew up time, shiv it between the wings or cut its throat why it is trying to stay up. Such cool acts by a rogue will never be forgotten (especially if it gets you killed). As the Ferengi say, the bigger the risk, the bigger the win!

Liberty's Edge

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I am willing to bet he was referencing a certain encounter with a Lamia Matriarch flying outside a ~150' tower.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

That would explain why I didn't recognize it.

Shadow Lodge

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Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:

the rogue has 2 main issues

a lack of attack bonus

i keep hearing these wierd statements from people... i know a CRB rogue doesnt have many choices for boosting to hit, but a rogue can get pretty close to a fighter's bonus to hit assuming hes flanking. a multi class dip is needed for solo tactics for it to truely shine, but i mean i would lose out on +2d6 damage for a +4 to hit while flanking and not needing opposed positioning for flanking.

lets see if i can rebuild my to hit rogue...

7 rogue/ 3 inquisitor
str 10
dex 20 (16+2(+2 levels (24 cats grace))
con 16 (14+2 belt)
wis 16 (14+2 headband)
in 12
cha 8
+hit:
bab 7 (level 10)+ dex 7 (cats grace)+ 4 (out flank)+ 2 (Menacing
enchant)+ 4 (Sword of Subtlety)-2 TWF = 22 at level 10 this isnt counting feats that can also increase to hit like weapon focus, feinting, etc...

i mean a fighter wont have much more then that, and if positioning is your main issue "well you cant alwayse get into a flank..." then you have feats Gang Up which allow you to get into the fray first,apply SA, then allow your slower melee buddies to catch up on their turn.

or if you dont like that, prestige into horizon walker instead of inquisitor, you lose out on +2 to hit(and a ton of other really cool bonus features), but you gain DD, which allows for Dimentional agility chain for full attack flanks when you want them.

and this isnt even a minmaxed damage dealer, im placing importance on non combat, functions as well as survivability, and retaining WBL for the sake of including necessary to life magic and mundane items.

in conclusion i think that a well built rogue can function just right in a good group. the 3/4 bab , imo, is more of a way to prevent access to feats, but you make up for that lack of BAB in situational bonuses to attack.

Shadow Lodge

oh and measured response for static damage bonuses. such a great feat for a rogue of a good diety, better then rogue talents.

Dark Archive

My alternate rogue: built to make an enemy drop without necessarily killing him
Half Elf
Rogue lvl 11
HP 80
AC 21
Init +11
Str 10
Dex 28
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 10
Feats: Weapon Finesse, skill focus (stealth), two weapon fighting, combat expertise, gang up, improved two weapon fighting, stealthy
Rogue talents: camouflage, fast stealth, offensive defense, slow reactions
Advanced rogue talent: crippling strike
Traits: bandit (stealth), reactionary
Skills: stealth 44, disable device 23, disguise 14, acrobatics 23, diplomacy 14, perception 14, knowledge planes 11, profession bartender 14
Attacks
16, 16, 11, 11 : two +1 daggers
Armor +1 improved shadow darkleaf quilted cloth armor
Magic gear
Ring of invisibility
Belt of dex +6
Unfettered shirt
Nightmare boots
Half elf specific traits
Adaptability, drow blooded, keen senses, elven immunity

Lantern Lodge

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I said I would build a ranged combat rogue, but alas I have ALOT of schoolwork to get done. Several final projects, papers, and tests are going to be done in the next few days >.<.

But I'd just like to throw out my thoughts:

A LOT of people are saying that anything a rogue can do, someone else can do better. I'm just a little confused by such a stance... Isn't the game about having fun? Surely the Rogue can be more fun for a certain player than any other class. The game, while about half of it is combat, is not just about combat.

The Rogue is situational. That's perfectly fine! That's why you and your group should create the right situations :).

As for a ranged Rogue, there's a couple of ideas.
1. Scout charge while throwing objects (mid combat viable at level 4) Uses Hurling Charger

2. Scout 10ft movement to make a single attack and apply SA damage. Using blunt arrows with a bludgeoner feat or merciful weapon enchantment you can add in sap adept and sap master, makes for competitive damage before people start getting their third iteritives. Works very well with a mount, which would allow you to get a full attack and still qualify as moving. Online at level 8, though you can use #1 until you get here.

There are others, I *might* post them later this week. They are quite good, but also quite build specific, so not giving them a decent paragraph or three at least would be a great injustice.


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bfobar wrote:


Jack of All Trades (Ex)

At 10th level, the bard can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires him to be trained. At 16th level, the bard considers all skills to be class skills. At 19th level, the bard can take 10 on any skill check, even if it is not normally allowed.

Oops. The bard is better at this than you are, the archaeologist has trapfinding, can still take skill mastery, and has 6 levels of spell progression. This is the problem the thread is trying to fix. Yes your rogue build has a lot of skills and can take 10 in them. Unfortunately, it looks like a bard is even better at your build's job than your rogue....

Bard can't sneak attack tho. Yes, it's better than rogue at that, but can't sneak attack at the same time. Also no master strike.


Don't forget, jack is tenth level. Some games it will not come up (not playing 10+ or the bard doesn't make it to 10th). All skills as class skills doesn't come up till 16th, even later and even more unlikely and rare. Until that time, the rogue can be the skill king (if that is the build you are going for), and the pro rogue will still be extremely good at their specialties (all 8 or 8+ of them).


SiuoL wrote:
bfobar wrote:


Jack of All Trades (Ex)

At 10th level, the bard can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires him to be trained. At 16th level, the bard considers all skills to be class skills. At 19th level, the bard can take 10 on any skill check, even if it is not normally allowed.

Oops. The bard is better at this than you are, the archaeologist has trapfinding, can still take skill mastery, and has 6 levels of spell progression. This is the problem the thread is trying to fix. Yes your rogue build has a lot of skills and can take 10 in them. Unfortunately, it looks like a bard is even better at your build's job than your rogue....

Bard can't sneak attack tho. Yes, it's better than rogue at that, but can't sneak attack at the same time. Also no master strike.

If Sneak Attack was that big of a deal, then yes. Unfortunately it really isn't, as much as I love the mechanic. Static damage bonuses trump Sneak Attack in virtually any situation.

The Bard also brings heaps of useful buffs, some of the best in the game.

Of course I don't consider Jack of All Trades to be a threat to the Rogue anyway. The 10th level bonus isn't that big of a deal. By 16 the game is practically over and at 19 who really cares anymore? The Rogue has been taking 10 on its meager skills for 9 whole levels at that point.


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FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

I said I would build a ranged combat rogue, but alas I have ALOT of schoolwork to get done. Several final projects, papers, and tests are going to be done in the next few days >.<.

But I'd just like to throw out my thoughts:

A LOT of people are saying that anything a rogue can do, someone else can do better. I'm just a little confused by such a stance... Isn't the game about having fun? Surely the Rogue can be more fun for a certain player than any other class. The game, while about half of it is combat, is not just about combat.

first, I feel you on the school work, all I can say to that is best of luck. :)

However, no one is saying that you can't have fun with the rogue. Having fun is not the point of this thread. You could also have fun playing a commoner, warrior, adept, or expert, even though its also sub-par. The point of this thread is to find a rogue who is competent enough to stand on its own. If your building a rogue who is completely outclassed by another character who used the same concept, then we're failing at the job were trying to do here.

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

The Rogue is situational. That's perfectly fine! That's why you and your group should create the right situations :).

As for a ranged Rogue, there's a couple of ideas.
1. Scout charge while throwing objects (mid combat viable at level 4) Uses Hurling Charger

2. Scout 10ft movement to make a single attack and apply SA damage. Using blunt arrows with a bludgeoner feat or merciful weapon enchantment you can add in sap adept and sap master, makes for competitive damage before people start getting their third iteritives. Works very well with a mount, which would allow you to get a full attack and still qualify as moving. Online at level 8, though you can use #1 until you get here.

There are others, I *might* post them later this week. They are quite good, but also quite build specific, so not giving them a decent paragraph or three at least would be a great injustice.

2. You'll only get the SA against the 1st attack. Sure you could use rapid shot, multi-shot, to add a few more attacks, but then you'll lessen the chance that you'll get off the big SA damage. In fact that 10% drop in to-hit(-2 rapid shot or -2 multi shot) is significant when the rogue doesn't get a real way to boost their attack. Alchemists get their mutagen, bards their music, inquisitors their judgement, heck even monks get their flurry of misses... I mean blows (yes it does). Rogues get nothing of the sort. At this point you can't even rely on the static damage from deadly aim. In other words the SA is replacing all the other static more reliable damage bonuses with a worse to hit chance.

Since your not getting off more then 1 SA, you might as well not be mounted, since a single shot from a baddie can kill off your mount since you don't have a special mount of any significance.

I'd love to see a rogue like Haley (oots) work, but the rules don't really support this type of charcter.


Sub_Zero wrote:
I'd love to see a rogue like Haley (oots) work, but the rules don't really support this type of charcter.

actually, I should say I'm still open to seeing a way to get this to reliably work. The best I've seen is having someone else intimidate them while the rogue focuses on shattering defenses. Unfortunately this doesn't even come online until level 8.

Lantern Lodge

One final check before I hit the sack for an early test tomorrow, can anyone give me a decent ranged build to compare to? Not a broken one, maybe just do a straight up fighter archer (removes the whole magic issue). Include numbers, feats, stats, and items (do not go over the average wealth per level). PFS rules too.

I'll have a couple builds for comparison when I get the chance. Thanks guys!

(Numbers are important, and be thorough. I don't want someone saying "You aren't as good as the fighter archer because he didn't take this". I want this settled. You don't have to average hit chances, but average damage (a d6 has an average damage of 3.5 btw) is important. Numbers are important to cut past the theory.)

So, someone build a Zen Archer and a Fighter Archer.

Show numbers for level 13 most importantly, but if you want to show other levels as well and I'll post my character at those levels. Let the Ranged Rogue versus everyone else games begin!


Quote:
Using blunt arrows with a bludgeoner feat

Ugh. So sick of this crap. Worst thing that ever happened to the rogue class, I don't even care about the numbers.

All this Sap Master stuff is stupid. I hate the flavor of it and I hate how extremely mechanically superior it is.


ChainsawSam wrote:
Quote:
Using blunt arrows with a bludgeoner feat

Ugh. So sick of this crap. Worst thing that ever happened to the rogue class, I don't even care about the numbers.

All this Sap Master stuff is stupid. I hate the flavor of it and I hate how extremely mechanically superior it is.

I'm sick of rogues in general.

Sneak attack should be nerfed to only affecting dex-bonus-less enemies to make room for a better core mechanic.


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FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

One final check before I hit the sack for an early test tomorrow, can anyone give me a decent ranged build to compare to? Not a broken one, maybe just do a straight up fighter archer (removes the whole magic issue). Include numbers, feats, stats, and items (do not go over the average wealth per level). PFS rules too.

I'll have a couple builds for comparison when I get the chance. Thanks guys!

(Numbers are important, and be thorough. I don't want someone saying "You aren't as good as the fighter archer because he didn't take this". I want this settled. You don't have to average hit chances, but average damage (a d6 has an average damage of 3.5 btw) is important. Numbers are important to cut past the theory.)

So, someone build a Zen Archer and a Fighter Archer.

Show numbers for level 13 most importantly, but if you want to show other levels as well and I'll post my character at those levels. Let the Ranged Rogue versus everyone else games begin!

sure. I'm not the best at builds, but here's a level 5/10 fighter

Fighter Level 5:

Stat:
str- 16
dex- 21 (belt of dex, stat, start bonus)
con- 12
wis- 10
int- 10
char- 8

Feats:
- Rapid Shot
- Point blank shot
- Weapon Focus
- Weapon Specialization
- precise shot
- deadly aim

Relevant Gear Equipment:
- +1 composite bow
- Belt of +2 Dex

Attack: 5(bab)+1 (weapon training)+5(dex)+1(weapon focus)-2(deadly aim)- 2(rapid shot)+1(point blank shot)+1(bow)=

10/10 or if needed +14 single shot

Damage: 1d8 + 1 (weapon training) + 3 (strength) + 2 (weapon specialization) + 4 (deadly aim)+ 1 (point blank shot)+ 1 (bow)

= 1d8 + 12 or if single non deadly aim 1d8 + 8

average CR AC: CR 5= 18, CR 8 (epic encounter)= 21

so at this level I hit appropriate AC on a 8/4 and epic fights on a 11/7

Fighter Level 10:

Stat:
str- 16
dex- 24 (+4 belt of dex, both stat, start bonus)
con- 12
wis- 10
int- 10
char- 8

Feats:
- Rapid Shot
- Point blank shot
- Weapon Focus
- Weapon Specialization
- precise shot
- deadly aim
- improved precise shot
- many shot
- greater weapon specialization
- greater weapon focus
- clustered shot

Relevant Gear Equipment: (62,000
- +2 shocking composite bow
- +4 belt of dex
- gloves of dueling
- Bracers of Falcons Aim (I could afford bracers of archery, but this would be the more balanced item)

Attack: 10(bab)+4(weapon training)+2(weapon focus/greater)+1(point blank shot)+2(magic weapon)+1(bracers)+7(dex)-2(rapid shot)-2(manyshot)-3(deadly aim)=

20(double damage if hit)/20/15

Damage: 1d8 + 3(strength)+4(weapon training)+4(weapon specialization)+1(point blank shot)+2(magic item)+1d6(shocking)+6(deadly aim)=

1d8+1d6+20 per hit

Average CR AC: CR 10- 24, CR 13 (epic encounter)- 28

So at this level my attacks hit on a 4/9(for iterative) and 8/13(boss fights).

Fighter Level 13:

Stat:
str- 19
dex- 24 (+4 belt of dex, both stat, start bonus)
con- 12
wis- 10
int- 10
char- 8

Feats:
- Rapid Shot
- Point blank shot
- Weapon Focus
- Weapon Specialization
- precise shot
- deadly aim
- improved precise shot
- many shot
- greater weapon specialization
- greater weapon focus
- clustered shot
- improved will
- greater will save
- improved reflexes

Relevant Gear Equipment: (62,000
- +3 shocking composite bow
- +4 belt of dex/ strength
- gloves of dueling
- Bracers of archery
- boots of speed

Attack: 13(bab)+5(weapon training)+2(weapon focus/greater)+1(point blank shot)+3(magic weapon)+2(bracers)+7(dex)-2(rapid shot)+1 (haste)-2(manyshot)-4(deadly aim)=

26(double damage if hit)/26/26/21/16

Damage: 1d8 + 4(strength)+5(weapon training)+4(weapon specialization)+1(point blank shot)+3(magic item)+1d6(shocking)+8(deadly aim)=

1d8+1d6+25 per hit

Average CR AC: CR 13: 28, CR 16 (epic encounter)- 31

So finally, at this level I hit on 2's/7/12(even my last iterative has an ok chance of hitting). Against boss encounters I need 5's/10/15 to hit.

overall damage= 163 against average CR opponents and 133 against CR 16 monsters. (note: I didn't take critical's into account which would push the damage up a bit)

Now the to-hit on these builds can go up significantly against higher AC enemies by turning off deadly aim and/or many shot/rapid shot. I also avoided having complete dump stats. Hopefully I didn't miss any obvious buffs/ damage boosts.

(for monster AC I went here: http://paizo.com/PRD/monsters/monsterCreation.html


Zen Archer:
Zen Archer
Male Human Monk (Zen Archer, Qinggong Monk) 10
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +25
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 23, flat-footed 24 (+3 Dex, +4 natural, +1 deflection, +9 untyped)
hp 103 (10d8+50)
Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +16
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +10/+5 (1d10+3/×2)
Ranged +3 adaptive composite longbow +16/+11 (1d8+12/19-20/×3)
Special Attacks flurry of blows, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic, zen archery
Spell-Like Abilities
—barkskin (self only, 1 ki)
—restoration (self only, 2 ki)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 25, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +10; CMD 36
Feats Deadly Aim, Defensive Combat Training, Hammer the Gap, Improved Critical (longbow), Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike, Perfect Strike, Point Blank Master, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Toughness, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Traits life of toil, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +16 (+28 jump), Perception +25, Sense Motive +14, Stealth +12
Languages Common
SQ ac bonus, fast movement, ki archery, ki arrows, ki defense, ki pool, monk vows (vow of cleanliness [+2 ki], vow of truth [+2 ki]), reflexive shot, unarmed strike
Other Gear +3 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0), Belt of physical perfection +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Eyes of the eagle, Handy haversack (empty), Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Ring of protection +1, 100 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +9 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki) (Sp) Self Only. Costs 1 ki point to activate.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Hammer the Gap With a full-attack action, each hit against the same opponent deals extra damage
High Jump (+10) +10 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Archery (Su) 1 Ki point: +50' range increment for bows.
Ki Arrows (Su) 1 Ki point: bow deals the same damage as unarmed strike.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Perfect Strike (3d20) (10/day) With certain weapons, roll twice, higher is attack, lower is confirmation roll.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Reflexive Shot (Ex) Make AoO with bow.
Restoration (self only, 2 Ki) (Sp) Self only. Costs 2 ki points to activate.
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Vow of Cleanliness (+2 Ki) A monk undertaking this vow must wash daily. He must change into fresh clothes daily or shortly after his robes become dirty. His appearance must be kept immaculate, including either neatly braiding or shaving off his hair (and, for male monks, maint
Vow of Truth (+2 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Zen Archery (Su) Use WIS instead of DEX for ranged attacks with a bow.

His DPR is pretty solid, at ~67 If he spends a ki point for another attack, it is ~87 per round. The zen archer also walks around with barkskin most of the time, since it costs 1 ki and lasts for 100 minutes, it is pretty easy to have up, especially with 16 ki points per day.

Also, he has 10 perfects strikes per day, which is also a large dpr boost because of the excellent chance to roll a hit.


ChainsawSam wrote:
Quote:
Using blunt arrows with a bludgeoner feat

Ugh. So sick of this crap. Worst thing that ever happened to the rogue class, I don't even care about the numbers.

All this Sap Master stuff is stupid. I hate the flavor of it and I hate how extremely mechanically superior it is.

It certainly is strong, that is for sure. Coup de grace will typically not be far behind.

As for damage and mechanical superiority, taking it with unarmed might be fun.


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

One final check before I hit the sack for an early test tomorrow, can anyone give me a decent ranged build to compare to? Not a broken one, maybe just do a straight up fighter archer (removes the whole magic issue). Include numbers, feats, stats, and items (do not go over the average wealth per level). PFS rules too.

I'll have a couple builds for comparison when I get the chance. Thanks guys!

(Numbers are important, and be thorough. I don't want someone saying "You aren't as good as the fighter archer because he didn't take this". I want this settled. You don't have to average hit chances, but average damage (a d6 has an average damage of 3.5 btw) is important. Numbers are important to cut past the theory.)

So, someone build a Zen Archer and a Fighter Archer.

Show numbers for level 13 most importantly, but if you want to show other levels as well and I'll post my character at those levels. Let the Ranged Rogue versus everyone else games begin!

I'll be curious to see your build, but after building the fighter here is what I noticed. At level 13 the bab of a fighter is 13, and a rogue 9. At first glance a -4 to hit isn't impossible to overcome, but the case is actually much worse then that. With weapon training (+5), and greater weapon focus (+1) the rogue actually has to overcome a +10 difference in to-hit, and anything they add to up their to-hit can also be gotten by the fighter. The full bab class actually has additional resources to increase his to-hit chance that the rogue doesn't get, which when you compare it to other 3/4 combat bab classes doesn't make much sense.

This means that even with a -4 penalty to use deadly aim I'm still +6 ahead to hit.

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