Ladies and Gentlemen: It's time we made the rogue work.


Advice

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Silver Crusade

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I suppose those who think a rogue is not truly combat-worthy have never played with a rogue that packs a wand of Beast Shape II with them.

Nothin' says lovin' like a stealthy Deinonychus with a 5-attack pounce on the surprise round (each attack dealing sneak attack bonus damage).


Sub_Zero wrote:
http://paizo.com/PRD/monsters/monsterCreation.html

THANK YOU. you have no idea how much headache you just saved me. i've been looking for enemy AC-by-CR for the longest time (so i can make sure stuff i build can still hit things or avoid getting hit on averages at X level), and it hadnt struck me to find that!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Volk,

now give that wand to a barbarian, and watch the carnage.

==Aelryinth


@Sub_Zero

Nice builds - reasonable and focused.
Two notes though:

1) Manyshot does not come with a -2 penalty, so the to hit is 2 better for level 10 and 13.
2) Weapon training at level 9 is +2, and at level 13 is +3, for the weapon type with the best bonus, so the to hit and damage for level 10 and 13 are 2 lower.

Grand Lodge

Sub_Zero wrote:
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

One final check before I hit the sack for an early test tomorrow, can anyone give me a decent ranged build to compare to? Not a broken one, maybe just do a straight up fighter archer (removes the whole magic issue). Include numbers, feats, stats, and items (do not go over the average wealth per level). PFS rules too.

I'll have a couple builds for comparison when I get the chance. Thanks guys!

(Numbers are important, and be thorough. I don't want someone saying "You aren't as good as the fighter archer because he didn't take this". I want this settled. You don't have to average hit chances, but average damage (a d6 has an average damage of 3.5 btw) is important. Numbers are important to cut past the theory.)

So, someone build a Zen Archer and a Fighter Archer.

Show numbers for level 13 most importantly, but if you want to show other levels as well and I'll post my character at those levels. Let the Ranged Rogue versus everyone else games begin!

sure. I'm not the best at builds, but here's a level 5/10 fighter

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

Thanks for making this, less than nought, Iit is a great benchmarking tool for determining combat viability. I figure if I can make a non fighter class as good as a (not particularly optimised) fighter of the same level, and capable of other things, they should be pulling their weight so far as fights go.


Thaago wrote:

@Sub_Zero

Nice builds - reasonable and focused.
Two notes though:

1) Manyshot does not come with a -2 penalty, so the to hit is 2 better for level 10 and 13.
2) Weapon training at level 9 is +2, and at level 13 is +3, for the weapon type with the best bonus, so the to hit and damage for level 10 and 13 are 2 lower.

1) nice forgot about that

2) gloves of dueling add a +2 to weapon training


Sub_Zero wrote:
Thaago wrote:

@Sub_Zero

Nice builds - reasonable and focused.
Two notes though:

1) Manyshot does not come with a -2 penalty, so the to hit is 2 better for level 10 and 13.
2) Weapon training at level 9 is +2, and at level 13 is +3, for the weapon type with the best bonus, so the to hit and damage for level 10 and 13 are 2 lower.

1) nice forgot about that

2) gloves of dueling add a +2 to weapon training

Whoops! I missed those. :) What a fantastic item for 15k!


Volkspanzer wrote:

I suppose those who think a rogue is not truly combat-worthy have never played with a rogue that packs a wand of Beast Shape II with them.

Nothin' says lovin' like a stealthy Deinonychus with a 5-attack pounce on the surprise round (each attack dealing sneak attack bonus damage).

THis is an incredibly expensive wand, and even if the rogue can afford it (prbably only at levels 13+) there is a class that can benefit from this tactic much more (because it is free for them). The vivisecsionist.

Liberty's Edge

If you craft a wondrous beast shape || item with 1charge/day, it will be affordable before 10th level (however I recommend the giant octopus with 9 tentacles)


TorresGlitch wrote:
If you craft a wondrous beast shape || item with 1charge/day, it will be affordable before 10th level (however I recommend the giant octopus with 9 tentacles)

That would be an interesting way to get off multiple sneak attacks via scouts charge


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Here's an archaeologist bard archer at 6th level for some comparison on the ranged front.

I've seen him drop three arrows down range with a full attack that deal about 1d6+11 damage a pop. Had I optimized him better (he was built to be more "average" and fun to illustrate tactical points) he could easily have done more.

HE typically runs around with an evangelist cleric pushing his damage up even farther between prayer and inspire courage.

Liberty's Edge

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The octopus doesn't have pounce, but is moved around with a floating disc by some follower.


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TorresGlitch wrote:
The octopus doesn't have pounce, but is moved around with a floating disc by some follower.

AS hilarious as that image is I have to say this is probably not what we want out of the party's rogue.


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Speak for yourself Tark. I want sneak attacking floating cephalopods so badly that it hurts.


I've had an idea kicking around for a while, inspired by one of my players.

His was a straight Carnie Rogue.

Dwarf Carnivalist 7

Traits
Alluring
Dirty Fighter.

Feats
Escape route
Precise Strike
Improved Familiar
Out Flank

Familar
Started with a Goat with the Valet archtype
Switched to an Earth Elemental with the Valet archtype at level 5

He had Str 14, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10 and lucked out with HP rolls, sitting at a solid 80 HP.
He fought with a Warhammer and buckler, while not a "Mad" sneak attacker he was fairly reliable as his familar used Earthglide to pass under single opponents to out flank them, and they would daisy chain retreats when the going got tough. Both made use of the teamwork feats and both hit for +3d6 sneak attacks. I know his next plan was to move into two weapon fighting to build on his sneak attack routine.
Not sure how tough this would be for another player as he was incredibly smart with his placement to minimise any threats to himself and his familiar. I have some ideas on how to improve on this, but the concept itself is the same, use abilities to get a valet familiar and use it to provide you with sneak attacks, flanking bonuses and AoO immunity when moving. But YMMV.

Liberty's Edge

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bfobar wrote:
Speak for yourself Tark. I want sneak attacking floating cephalopods so badly that it hurts.

Just add chill touch (lvl9+) to constantly hit, combat reflexes for sweet AoO! And position yourself for flank. Greater invisibility and shatter defenses are massive enhancers as you deal sneak attack damage on all enemies.

With produce flame you might even become a ranged pyromaniac (with 9throws/round)

Silver Crusade

Aelryinth wrote:

Volk,

now give that wand to a barbarian, and watch the carnage.

==Aelryinth

I wouldn't give a barbarian a magic device until much later, as they normally don't have the charisma, skill ranks, or the class bonus to make use of it. Besides, they have beast totem rage powers, so they can pounce without beast shape.


ok so my idea of the rogue im making right now is 12 str, 18 dex, 13 con, 14 int, 10 wis , 10 cha. i have thisa because im human used 20 point buy.
my ac is 18 point at lvl 1 i have +4 for dex, +3 for armor u can buy with 150 gold (studded leather armor) and dodge +1 ac. i got two traits that make my reflex save +1 ok not really helpful since its already a 6 but still every bit helps when at lvl 2 i get evasion and im goin to get other feats. I also have another trait that gives me +2 init which is nice because now i have +6. My melee is only at +1 to hit but im okay with that because i have a rapier and im eventually going to enchant it with the increased crit range feat. so it goes better and better chance to hit and get a crit with rapier . also i will be using longbow eventually but for now i use a shortbow i gwt +5 to atk and if i act first then they are flat footed since they have not taken an action. ok Traits are( deft didge and Reactonary) in pathfinder websiute. Now i dont know how this is going to work but i made my rogue an armosmith and im 5 lvl i can get a feat that allows me to create magical armor which is awesome. also with the ability to use magical device the rogue is also a spellcaster with a wand staff whatever. give him a few lvl 1 magic items rogue get a + 1 to all saves roll (cloak of resistance) plus if u want slightly higher ac 20 on like lvl 2 maybe ring of protection and amulet of natural armor or not wear armor and get bracers of armor + what u can afford. just depends on what u need to do there is a feat for everything.
I had a 3.5 rogue who could crit undead and crit them consistently took a lvl of cleric to allow this i think. also gave my rogue the ability to crit things that had no decirnable anatomy . It was fun found a elven bow of awesomeness or some ridicolous thing and some weapon that recovered my life it was cool bow was op because of my feats also had a feat to increase the amount of dies for sneak attack and give it other effects whihc bleed or did nasty things all in like less than 10 lvls ill look it up and see if i find it.
Im sorry for my grammar but here is what i think about my rogue

Ranged rogue for me all the way


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

One final check before I hit the sack for an early test tomorrow, can anyone give me a decent ranged build to compare to? Not a broken one, maybe just do a straight up fighter archer (removes the whole magic issue). Include numbers, feats, stats, and items (do not go over the average wealth per level). PFS rules too.

I'll have a couple builds for comparison when I get the chance. Thanks guys!

(Numbers are important, and be thorough. I don't want someone saying "You aren't as good as the fighter archer because he didn't take this". I want this settled. You don't have to average hit chances, but average damage (a d6 has an average damage of 3.5 btw) is important. Numbers are important to cut past the theory.)

So, someone build a Zen Archer and a Fighter Archer.

Show numbers for level 13 most importantly, but if you want to show other levels as well and I'll post my character at those levels. Let the Ranged Rogue versus everyone else games begin!

Wouldn't it make more sense to compare against some 3/4 builds like the bard, alchemist, or monk? I thought the purpose of the thread was to be comparable to these classes rather than our DPR a Fighter.


thesageoffun wrote:

ok so my idea of the rogue im making right now is 12 str, 18 dex, 13 con, 14 int, 10 wis , 10 cha. i have thisa because im human used 20 point buy.

my ac is 18 point at lvl 1 i have +4 for dex, +3 for armor u can buy with 150 gold (studded leather armor) and dodge +1 ac. i got two traits that make my reflex save +1 ok not really helpful since its already a 6 but still every bit helps when at lvl 2 i get evasion and im goin to get other feats. I also have another trait that gives me +2 init which is nice because now i have +6. My melee is only at +1 to hit but im okay with that because i have a rapier and im eventually going to enchant it with the increased crit range feat. so it goes better and better chance to hit and get a crit with rapier . also i will be using longbow eventually but for now i use a shortbow i gwt +5 to atk and if i act first then they are flat footed since they have not taken an action. ok Traits are( deft didge and Reactonary) in pathfinder websiute. Now i dont know how this is going to work but i made my rogue an armosmith and im 5 lvl i can get a feat that allows me to create magical armor which is awesome. also with the ability to use magical device the rogue is also a spellcaster with a wand staff whatever. give him a few lvl 1 magic items rogue get a + 1 to all saves roll (cloak of resistance) plus if u want slightly higher ac 20 on like lvl 2 maybe ring of protection and amulet of natural armor or not wear armor and get bracers of armor + what u can afford. just depends on what u need to do there is a feat for everything.
I had a 3.5 rogue who could crit undead and crit them consistently took a lvl of cleric to allow this i think. also gave my rogue the ability to crit things that had no decirnable anatomy . It was fun found a elven bow of awesomeness or some ridicolous thing and some weapon that recovered my life it was cool bow was op because of my feats also had a feat to increase the amount of dies for sneak attack and give it other effects whihc bleed or did nasty things all in like less than 10 lvls ill look it up and see if i find it.
Im sorry for my grammar but here is what i think about my rogue

Ranged rogue for me all the way

i have some questions

1st, how did you consistently maintain a 30 foot distance from your foes to get off sneak attacks

2nd, with a bow? how did you even gain sneak attacks? there are some extremely convuluted means to pull it off, but all of them are heavy resource taxes

3rd, if you sniped, how did you consistently retain cover or concealment without denying it to yourself? hiding behind the fighter denies your own sneak attack

4th, what unique skill related thing did you do that couldn't also be done by a bard, ranger, alchemist or inquisitor?


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TorresGlitch wrote:
The octopus doesn't have pounce, but is moved around with a floating disc by some follower.

LOL, I meant Beast shape II to grab an animal with pounce, but an 8 armed monstrosity would be hilarious as well.


Gray wrote:

Wouldn't it make more sense to compare against some 3/4 builds like the bard, alchemist, or monk? I thought the purpose of the thread was to be comparable to these classes rather than our DPR a Fighter.

the only one of those the rogue can realistically keep up with, is a monk, and even the monk, has 6 or 7 fixer archetypes for minmaxing combat with a blood of fiends race tax.

rogue doesn't even get a blood of fiends race tax to be effective, and their one fixer archetype, still isn't good enough.


TarkXT wrote:

Here's an archaeologist bard archer at 6th level for some comparison on the ranged front.

I've seen him drop three arrows down range with a full attack that deal about 1d6+11 damage a pop. Had I optimized him better (he was built to be more "average" and fun to illustrate tactical points) he could easily have done more.

HE typically runs around with an evangelist cleric pushing his damage up even farther between prayer and inspire courage.

If you wouldn't mind, could you explain how you're getting that +11. Is it from buffs from other PCs? Setting up buffs before combat?


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1d6+3 + 2 Arcane Strike + 2 Archaeologists Luck + 4 Deadly Aim

If his evangelist teammate is working to buff the group you can add 3 more damage. IF target is within 30ft. add another +1 damage.

Some characters are more than what their starting numbers suggest.


I can whip up a couple other archers

Inquisitor man:

Erastil's Arrow
Male Dwarf Inquisitor 10
LN Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +19
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 22, touch 15, flat-footed 17 (+6 armor, +5 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 83 (10d8+30)
Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +12; +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 warhammer +11/+6 (1d8+4/×3)
Ranged +1 adaptive, holy composite longbow +11/+11/+6 (1d8+9/19-20/×3+2d6 vs. Evil)
Special Attacks bane, hatred, judgement of destruction, judgement of justice, judgement of piercing, judgement of smiting
Spell-Like Abilities
At will—detect alignment
10 rounds/day—discern lies
Inquisitor Spells Known (CL 10th; concentration +13):
4th (1/day)—freedom of movement, divine power
3rd (4/day)—cure serious wounds, dispel magic, heroism, greater magic weapon
2nd (5/day)—lesser restoration, resist energy, invisibility, see invisibility, silence (DC 15)
1st (6/day)—expeditious retreat, protection from evil, deadeye's lore, divine favor, wrath
0 (at will)—stabilize, detect magic, create water, guidance, light, brand (DC 13)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +10; CMD 25 (25 vs. bull rush, 25 vs. trip)
Feats Deadly Aim, Enfilading Fire, Manyshot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shake It Off, Target of Opportunity
Skills Climb +7, Diplomacy +11, Intimidate +17, Knowledge (arcana) +7 (+10 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6 (+9 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (nature) +6 (+9 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (planes) +7 (+10 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (religion) +6 (+9 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Perception +19 (+21 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Sense Motive +16, Spellcraft +13, Stealth +11, Survival +8 (+13 to track), Swim +7
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ domains (conversion inquisition), greed, hardy, monster lore +3, judgement 4/day), slow and steady, solo tactics, stability, stonecunning, swaying word, teamwork feat, track
Combat Gear Extend metamagic rod (lesser) (3/day); Other Gear +1 Mithral Kikko armor, +1 Adaptive, Holy Composite longbow (Str +0), +1 Warhammer, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +2, Handy haversack (empty), Headband of inspired wisdom +2, 258 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bane (+2 / 2d6) (10 rounds/day) (Su) Make the weapon you are holding a bane weapon.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Detect Alignment (At will) (Sp) Detect chaos, evil, good, or law at will.
Discern Lies (10 rounds/day) (Sp) Discern Lies at will
Enfilading Fire +2 to ranged att vs a foe flanked by an ally with this feat.
Extend metamagic rod (lesser) (3/day) Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).

The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are extended as though using the Extend Spell feat. Lesser metamagic rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower.

Construction
Requirements: Craft Rod, Extend Spell feat; Cost 1,500 gp
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Inquisitor Domain (Conversion Inquisition) Deities: Any deity.

Granted Powers: You are a powerful persuader. A honeyed tongue empowered by divine argumentation sways the indifferent and adversarial to your side.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Monster Lore +3 (Ex) +3 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Second Judgement (4/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Shake It Off Gain +1 to all saving throws per adjacent ally
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Swaying Word (1/day) (DC 18) (Sp) Spoken word of divine wisdom dominates one person for 1 min (Will neg).
Target of Opportunity When an ally hits with a ranged attack, you may make an attack as an immediate action
Teamwork Feat (change 3/day) Swap your most recent Teamwork feat for another
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.


DPR With only Greater Magic Weapon: 29.75

DPR With judgement of destruction and justice: 50.91

DPR with above, but deadly aim on: 51.06

DPR with Bane and above: 79.98 (With deadly aim on it is lower!)

DPR with Divine Favor and everything else: 109.18

DPR with Divine Power and others: 142.84

So I learned something here, Deadly aim actually hurts inquisitors, because a lot of their damage comes from static dice rolls like holy and bane! I would swap out deadly aim for steel soul, and have excellent saves


CWheezy wrote:

I can whip up a couple other archers

** spoiler omitted **...

DPR With only Greater Magic Weapon: 29.75

DPR With judgement of destruction and justice: 50.91

DPR with above, but deadly aim on: 51.06

DPR with Bane and above: 79.98 (With deadly aim on it is lower!)

DPR with Divine Favor and everything else: 109.18

DPR with Divine Power and others: 142.84

So I learned something here, Deadly aim actually hurts inquisitors, because a lot of their damage comes from static dice rolls like holy and bane! I would swap out deadly aim for steel soul, and have excellent saves

Only sometimes. I was doing some calculations last night and it all worked out with Deadly Aim being an increase. It depends on what your bonuses are and what you're shooting at. If your hit bonus is, comparatively, low then Power Attack and Deadly Aim tend to be bad deals.

Also our DPR doesn't look right. It all looks low. Can't figure out why, but it might be that your inquisitor is built pretty differently from how I build mine.


TarkXT wrote:

1d6+3 + 2 Arcane Strike + 2 Archaeologists Luck + 4 Deadly Aim

If his evangelist teammate is working to buff the group you can add 3 more damage. IF target is within 30ft. add another +1 damage.

Some characters are more than what their starting numbers suggest.

I'm slightly confused, but where is the +3 coming from on the 1d6? I only see a +1 enhancement bonus on the bow, and +1 from STR. I thought the other +1 was already assuming Point Blank?

Also, can you perform two Swift Actions in one round? I thought the consensus was no. Archaeologist Luck and Arcane Strike are both Swift Actions.


Gray wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

1d6+3 + 2 Arcane Strike + 2 Archaeologists Luck + 4 Deadly Aim

If his evangelist teammate is working to buff the group you can add 3 more damage. IF target is within 30ft. add another +1 damage.

Some characters are more than what their starting numbers suggest.

I'm slightly confused, but where is the +3 coming from on the 1d6? I only see a +1 enhancement bonus on the bow, and +1 from STR. I thought the other +1 was already assuming Point Blank?

Also, can you perform two Swift Actions in one round? I thought the consensus was no. Archaeologist Luck and Arcane Strike are both Swift Actions.

Archaeologists luck is a swift action on the first round, free action to maintain every round after.

i would have preferred that they kept real bardic performances like inspire courage. because right now, Archaeologists are quite selfish the way they are built.


Archaeologists luck lasts for many rounds. Arcane Strike gets popped every round.

Not sure where the extra +1 damage comes from. I might ahve read falcon's aim wrong. Corrected on the sheet.


TarkXT wrote:

1d6+3 + 2 Arcane Strike + 2 Archaeologists Luck + 4 Deadly Aim

If his evangelist teammate is working to buff the group you can add 3 more damage. IF target is within 30ft. add another +1 damage.

Some characters are more than what their starting numbers suggest.

I was playing with the INT based rogue someone mentioned earlier.

Consider a Rogue with a Int 18 and a Dex 16.

Feats and Talent Path with Starting Trait of Reactionary
1. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Combat Trick: Focused Shot
3. Deadly Aim
4. Weapon Focus: Bow
5. Improved Initiative
6. Snap Shot

So at this level I have an Initiative +9, so I should be going in the surprise round and the first round if I can pull off my Stealth (+11 which isn’t fantastic, but workable). I have +9 to hit with my bow, and 1d6+6 (plus 3d6 on SA). This is within 30ft, and I’ve equipped myself only with the +1 bow that the archeologist bard possesses. I guess I could have taken Deadly Aim instead of Improved Initiative to bring that up to 1d6+10 plus 3d6, but I guess I’d play around with it a bit as the game progresses.

In comparison, I should be acting before the bard even if I didn’t act in the surprise round. So I most likely did 24pts of damage in round 1. The bard really spends his first round to swift action Luck, so he’s at 1d6+9 for 12pts. Round 2 he’s adds Arcane Strike on top of Luck and hits for 1d6+11 (14). I hit for 1d6+10 (13). The total is Rogue 37 vs Bard 26. Most combats (IME) end by round 2 or 3, but in this round the gap closes a bit at Rogue 50 vs Bard 40.


Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
i would have preferred that they kept real bardic performances like inspire courage. because right now, Archaeologists are quite selfish the way they are built.

I agree with this too. I also like bards, but I like playing them to buff the whole party. IMO they don't contribute as much when only having self buffs.


Gray wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

1d6+3 + 2 Arcane Strike + 2 Archaeologists Luck + 4 Deadly Aim

If his evangelist teammate is working to buff the group you can add 3 more damage. IF target is within 30ft. add another +1 damage.

Some characters are more than what their starting numbers suggest.

I was playing with the INT based rogue someone mentioned earlier.

Consider a Rogue with a Int 18 and a Dex 16.

Feats and Talent Path with Starting Trait of Reactionary
1. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Combat Trick: Focused Shot
3. Deadly Aim
4. Weapon Focus: Bow
5. Improved Initiative
6. Snap Shot

So at this level I have an Initiative +9, so I should be going in the surprise round and the first round if I can pull off my Stealth (+11 which isn’t fantastic, but workable). I have +9 to hit with my bow, and 1d6+6 (plus 3d6 on SA). This is within 30ft, and I’ve equipped myself only with the +1 bow that the archeologist bard possesses. I guess I could have taken Deadly Aim instead of Improved Initiative to bring that up to 1d6+10 plus 3d6, but I guess I’d play around with it a bit as the game progresses.

In comparison, I should be acting before the bard even if I didn’t act in the surprise round. So I most likely did 24pts of damage in round 1. The bard really spends his first round to swift action Luck, so he’s at 1d6+9 for 12pts. Round 2 he’s adds Arcane Strike on top of Luck and hits for 1d6+11 (14). I hit for 1d6+10 (13). The total is Rogue 37 vs Bard 26. Most combats (IME) end by round 2 or 3, but in this round the gap closes a bit at Rogue 50 vs Bard 40.

Now keep in mind the bards damage is consistent. Meaning he'll be able to do that damage virtually every combat without special circumstances set up to work for him. All he requires are swift actions. Which are easy enough to get.

Also worth noting are his spells. He may decide to have heroism up (lasts an hour for him) or cast Allegro on the turn he activates archaeologists luck. If he's feeling particularly mean he could cast glitterdust on his targets before laying out the hate.

As for group buffs? Well his other party members include an evangelist cleric and transmutation specialist wizard. The group had its buffs covered when i got to my 4th member to build. I didn't build this guy to stand on his own but as 25% of a brutal and well oiled machine. :)


Gray wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

1d6+3 + 2 Arcane Strike + 2 Archaeologists Luck + 4 Deadly Aim

If his evangelist teammate is working to buff the group you can add 3 more damage. IF target is within 30ft. add another +1 damage.

Some characters are more than what their starting numbers suggest.

I was playing with the INT based rogue someone mentioned earlier.

Consider a Rogue with a Int 18 and a Dex 16.

Feats and Talent Path with Starting Trait of Reactionary
1. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Combat Trick: Focused Shot
3. Deadly Aim
4. Weapon Focus: Bow
5. Improved Initiative
6. Snap Shot

So at this level I have an Initiative +9, so I should be going in the surprise round and the first round if I can pull off my Stealth (+11 which isn’t fantastic, but workable). I have +9 to hit with my bow, and 1d6+6 (plus 3d6 on SA). This is within 30ft, and I’ve equipped myself only with the +1 bow that the archeologist bard possesses. I guess I could have taken Deadly Aim instead of Improved Initiative to bring that up to 1d6+10 plus 3d6, but I guess I’d play around with it a bit as the game progresses.

In comparison, I should be acting before the bard even if I didn’t act in the surprise round. So I most likely did 24pts of damage in round 1. The bard really spends his first round to swift action Luck, so he’s at 1d6+9 for 12pts. Round 2 he’s adds Arcane Strike on top of Luck and hits for 1d6+11 (14). I hit for 1d6+10 (13). The total is Rogue 37 vs Bard 26. Most combats (IME) end by round 2 or 3, but in this round the gap closes a bit at Rogue 50 vs Bard 40.

Two thing , that I'm interested in your opinion on.

1. Would a one level dip into the master of many styles monk to get Kirin strike be worth it. As a rogue you don't have much use for swift actions and +8 damage is kinda sweet anyway.

2. What is your to-hit bonus compared to the bards because The damage you deal is irrelevant if you don't hit the target. The same problem is true with you using deadly aim.


All my numbers are against an average cr 10 ac, which is 24. The reason deadly aim lowered dpr (It was only by like, 1-2 points) is that it lowers the total hits, an you want to maximize hits for holy and bane to have the most effect

Lantern Lodge

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A Fighter's Ranged Build:

Presented "Average" Fighter Build wrote:


Stat:
str- 19
dex- 24 (+4 belt of dex, both stat, start bonus)
con- 12
wis- 10
int- 10
char- 8
Feats:
- Rapid Shot
- Point blank shot
- Weapon Focus
- Weapon Specialization
- precise shot
- deadly aim
- improved precise shot
- many shot
- greater weapon specialization
- greater weapon focus
- clustered shot
- improved will
- greater will save
- improved reflexes

Relevant Gear Equipment: (62,000
- +3 shocking composite bow
- +4 belt of dex/ strength
- gloves of dueling
- Bracers of archery
- boots of speed

Attack: 13(bab)+5(weapon training)+2(weapon focus/greater)+1(point blank shot)+3(magic weapon)+2(bracers)+7(dex)-2(rapid shot)+1 (haste)-2(manyshot)-4(deadly aim)=

26(double damage if hit)/26/26/21/16

Damage: 1d8 + 4(strength)+5(weapon training)+4(weapon specialization)+1(point blank shot)+3(magic item)+1d6(shocking)+8(deadly aim)=

1d8+1d6+25 per hit

Average CR AC: CR 13: 28, CR 16 (epic encounter)- 31

So finally, at this level I hit on 2's/7/12(even my last iterative has an ok chance of hitting). Against boss encounters I need 5's/10/15 to hit.

overall damage= 163 against average CR opponents and 133 against CR 16 monsters. (note: I didn't take critical's into account which would push the damage up a bit)

Now the to-hit on these builds can go up significantly against higher AC enemies by turning off deadly aim and/or many shot/rapid shot. I also avoided having complete dump stats. Hopefully I didn't miss any obvious buffs/ damage boosts

Ok, I have one build for just level 13 (Finals approaching, not much time). This build takes advantage of the concealment idea, where total concealment = loss of dexterity bonus (If you have arguments about this, take it to the recent threat on the rules forum, though it's generally accepted so far). This ESPECIALLY makes Drow Rogues shine (Although they are not legal for PFS, sad day)

A sample Rogue Build:

Drow Rogue (Swashbuckler)

1 Drow Nobility
2 Point Blank Shot
3 Improved Drow Nobility
4 Precise Shot
5 Greater Drow Nobility (Completely online here, rest is fluff)

6 Sniper's Eye
7 Rapid Shot
8 Bleeding SA
9 Combat Expertise
10 --
11 Blind Fight
12 --
13 Moonlight Stalker

Starting Stats
10 17(19) 14(12) 7 12 11 (13)
At level 13:
10 22 12 7 12 13

Sniper Goggles Greater (+2 dmg per SA) 50,000
Bracers (+2 attack, +1 dmg) 25,000
+5 Bow of Awesomeness 50,000
Belt of incredible DEX +4 16,000

BaB +9, Dex +8, Weapon +5, Bracers +2 = 24
In darkness...
+2 = 26

24/24/19
Damage = 1d8 (longbow) +5 (weapon enchantment) + 1(Bracers) + 2(Moonlight) + 7d6(Sneak Attack) + 14(Sniper goggles) + 7Bleed
Average Damage (No critical) = 51 +7Bleed per hit.

As long as the target stays out of the darkness (Use fly, or levitate the darkness object up so it's a sphere that only includes you and a few squares), or doesn't have you in range of blind sense, or is immune to sneak attacks, you can get sneak attacks.

This build can be VERY cruel if performed correctly. At level 5, you can keep darkness up indefinitely. As long as your NOT in direct sunlight, you have concealment, and as long as you stay in the shade you have total concealment (Non-magical torches in caves do nothing in this darkness, so automatically complete darkness). Also note that if they can't see you, they have to guess where you are, and they have a -50% chance to hit you if they guess right. Attach the object creating the darkness to a 5ft rope... Shooting the center square is now impossible :).

Lots of stuff you can add to this, past level 6 all of the feats/talents are fluff that are not essential to the build (Though rapid shot does add ALOT of damage).
Once again, low on time, and I still have other builds to share! I'll see you guys next time!

Lantern Lodge

Oh, and PS, if you have total concealment, Spells targeting you because a lot less frequent... (I think most mind affecting spells require line of sight or knowing where they are, correct?)


I think picking drow as a race is not a real choice, I mean you have to be a drow which is mostly unplayable in golarion.

Lantern Lodge

Why is it unplayable?

light sensitivity is countered by greater darkness at will. After that point your just like any other hated race like a goblin. Many people play evil characters O.o

Lantern Lodge

Though, of course, this is just one of several builds to come :)


CWheezy wrote:
I think picking drow as a race is not a real choice, I mean you have to be a drow which is mostly unplayable in golarion.

drow is about as Essential to that sniper rogue build as Onispawn Tiefling Variant is to STR Monks

STR Monks only Work as Onispawn Tieflings due to their Extreme MAD, and the Synergy that comes with recieving a racial bonus to your two primary stats with a penalty to a stat you would dump anyway, a feat tax for a natural armor boost that stacks with barkskin, and the fact the SLA qualifies you for arcane strike

Sniper Rogues pretty much have to be Drow for the mentioned feat combo, or if you don't mind being a bit weaker, can be done with half elves

Strength Rogues are literally begging to be Falchion Wielding Half-Orcs or Fauchard Wielding Half-Elves

Dex Melee Rogues are also required to be drow for the same reason dex sniper rogues are

effectively, the presence of drow blood is a racial tax.


I've played both monks and rogues. I'll tell you the Str monk human works just fine.

It's rogues that are unplayable.


Looks good so far. I'll double check to make sure the rules are in order. I'm curious if that build works. I'm on my phone so researching is a bit of a pain.

One minor quip. You're over on your wealth by level . Also The fighters damage would go up a bit if we're min-maxing it. You saved 0 money for defensive gear of any sort .


Yeah, you have to be a hated race, that is a pain in the ass, and not workable imo.

Same with the tiefling monk, really. Tieflings less so but when it only works with one race then :/


Marthkus wrote:

I've played both monks and rogues. I'll tell you the Str monk human works just fine.

It's rogues that are unplayable.

STR monk humans can have the offense of an Onispawn and more skill points, but at the cost of the defensive and utility boons of the Onispawn

2 extra natural armor, extra wis adding to AC, effectively a 3 AC again

darkvision negating the need for a torch in a lot of scenarios

i know ioun torches are cheap, and while most creatures have bigger darkvision than you and you won't stealth well either way, but the darkvision allows you a little bit more distance and allows you to face the many foes whom spam darkness

the energy resistances, while not useful against evocation spells, are good against alchemical items and elemental weapon properties, which while not common, is still beneficial, and provide resistance to natural conditions.

a prehensile tail makes retrieving stowed items that much faster, such as quickly grabbing that potion off your belt.

human doesn't add the same level of utility to a STR monk

plus, Arcane Strike is a huge DPR booster

Lantern Lodge

Sigh... It's just one build to say it's possible, there are more coming guys. Yes, the build is dependent on the race. But that's alright, other such things happen.

And your right, i did go over the WBL limit by 1k, I messed that up (I was partly rushing it).

Stats are a little min maxed, but not the feats/talents after level 6ish. So... The point with that build is that there *is* a way to have it work. Add in a level of the fighter archetype for drow and it can be a very interesting style.

Lantern Lodge

As for the money, downgrade the bracers. Thats only -1 atk and -1 dmg. Then you have 19k for defensive items though your defense will be greatly enhanced by being totally concealed most of the time.

Lantern Lodge

Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Sniper Rogues pretty much have to be Drow for the mentioned feat combo, or if you don't mind being a bit weaker, can be done with half elves

Not trying to be mean by saying this, but bullcrud. Drow being the only good ranged rogues is bullcrud. I'll post more builds, though once again, finals week... (I should be writing a 21 page paper right now...).

Just think a little outside the box guys. Do the things that have never really been done.


Assuming ideal conditions, the Drow build does less DPR than the Fighter build despite being well over WBL and having spent more than twice as much on items.

For reference, the Drow build does ~33 DPR against targets immune to Sneak Attack or targets it doesn't have concealment against for whatever reason.


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Sniper Rogues pretty much have to be Drow for the mentioned feat combo, or if you don't mind being a bit weaker, can be done with half elves

Not trying to be mean by saying this, but bullcrud. Drow being the only good ranged rogues is bullcrud. I'll post more builds, though once again, finals week... (I should be writing a 21 page paper right now...).

Just think a little outside the box guys. Do the things that have never really been done.

Will they all be over WBL while spending nothing on defensive items? If so, I don't think you should bother. It isn't particularly constructive to how the average game plays.

I could make a level 13 commoner perform decently with a crap ton of magic items and a +5 sword of badguy slaying.


ChainsawSam wrote:
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Sniper Rogues pretty much have to be Drow for the mentioned feat combo, or if you don't mind being a bit weaker, can be done with half elves

Not trying to be mean by saying this, but bullcrud. Drow being the only good ranged rogues is bullcrud. I'll post more builds, though once again, finals week... (I should be writing a 21 page paper right now...).

Just think a little outside the box guys. Do the things that have never really been done.

Will they all be over WBL while spending nothing on defensive items? If so, I don't think you should bother. It isn't particularly constructive to how the average game plays.

I could make a level 13 commoner perform decently with a crap ton of magic items and a +5 sword of badguy slaying.

the drow in question has no defensive items

his Armor class and saving throws drink ditchwater

and his whole tactic can be shut down by a light or daylight spell of 4th level or higher

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