Player Companions: What's Next?


Pathfinder Player Companion

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I hope October keeps being the spooky “Blood of” month. Maybe with Changelings? Fetchlings?

“People of” and “of Golarion“ stuff for Tian-Xia would be pretty cool. Kitsune, Nagaji, Wanshou, Hongal, Minkai... there are plenty of good topics to take a stab at. Maybe Handbooks for dealing with the Old Cults, surviving the Darklands or exploring the city? I wouldn’t mind seeing Galt get some attention in one form or another.

I’d probably lose my mind for a Lizardfolk of Golarion book. I don’t know why I like them so much, or even when and how it started, but I sure do. Something for Gnolls too, why not.

As for general content… I’d say more of what’s been going on. Feats, traits, drawbacks, new maps, archetypes, the occasional prestige class, new maps again. New maps one more time. I also really like the reoccurring Aasimar and Tieflings characters. Maybe get the Torch Bearer, others in on that trend? I’d also dig the occasional familiar or two.


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I would like to see more along the lines of the Varisia PC. I also liked Champions of Purity and Quests. The thing they have in common is providing a player with interesting and practical ideas for integrating their character within Golarion.

Contributor

D'know what would also be cool? Not necessarily for the Player Companion line, but at the end of every Adventure Path, a compilation of all of the new feats, spells, archetypes, magic items, mundane items, class features, so on and so forth.

I don't mind buying Campaign Setting and Player Companion products for rules crunch because the flavor in those lines are often great inspiration as well. But Adventure Paths? I prefer to run my own games, so most of that book is product that I don't get much mileage out of.


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Some things I would be interested in

Blood of Changelings: looking at changelings.

Tengus of Golarion: A book looking at tengus of golarion, including how they can be used in the Inner Sea

Kitsune of Golarion: a book looking at the Kitsune of golarion.

Blood of Genies: a look at the various elemental kin, in the vain of the blood of fiends/angels.

People of the Mask: Looking at playing a character from Razamir. how one might play a good aligned person from the land

Dark Archive

Underground / Resistance of Golarion How to play a member of the anti-Thrunish resistance in Westcrown, or the Bellflowers elsewhere in Cheliax, or the Desnan underground in Nidal, or the Sarenrite dissidents in Taldor, pretty much anyone in Galt, etc., etc. Many nations have undergrounds, particularly oppressive ones like Cheliax, Irrisen, Nidal, etc. but also more 'neutral' ish nations like Taldor or Rahadoum. Information on what sorts of characters and roles best suit an 'against the man!' campaign, and what sorts of adventures and missions work for them, and how to save such campaigns when they start to go off the rails... (Some idjit decides to unmask and openly defy the authority, despite being 3rd level, and the authority being 18th...)


Just a few I'd like:-

Churches of Golarion - famous centres of worship and giving some detail in how different faiths organize their temples.

Prisons of Golarion - how do some places lock up high level characters?

Guards of Golarion - peacekeepers and Watches. Law enforcement on the streets. Again, how do settlements keep a lid on high-levels with 'high spirits'?

Cheers
Mark

Paizo Employee Developer

ChaosDoughnut wrote:
I hope October keeps being the spooky “Blood of” month.

Yeah, that's been kind of a fun trend that I wouldn't mind sticking to. :]

ChaosDoughnut wrote:
“People of” and “of Golarion“ stuff for Tian-Xia would be pretty cool. Kitsune, Nagaji, Wanshou, Hongal, Minkai... there are plenty of good topics to take a stab at.

Actually, you might take a look at the Dragon Empires Primer, which is pretty much exactly what you're talking about.

Contributor

Patrick Renie wrote:
ChaosDoughnut wrote:
“People of” and “of Golarion“ stuff for Tian-Xia would be pretty cool. Kitsune, Nagaji, Wanshou, Hongal, Minkai... there are plenty of good topics to take a stab at.
Actually, you might take a look at the Dragon Empires Primer, which is pretty much exactly what you're talking about.

I think you might be misinterpreting ChaosDoughnut here, Patrick. He's saying that we could use some expansion on those topics. Two or three paragraphs about the kitsune will NEVER satisfy me! D:

Paizo Employee Developer

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Alexander Augunas wrote:
Patrick Renie wrote:
ChaosDoughnut wrote:
“People of” and “of Golarion“ stuff for Tian-Xia would be pretty cool. Kitsune, Nagaji, Wanshou, Hongal, Minkai... there are plenty of good topics to take a stab at.
Actually, you might take a look at the Dragon Empires Primer, which is pretty much exactly what you're talking about.
I think you might be misinterpreting ChaosDoughnut here, Patrick. He's saying that we could use some expansion on those topics. Two or three paragraphs about the kitsune will NEVER satisfy me! D:

Ha! Fair. This is not the first time I have seen people asking for more info on the races of the Dragon Empires. :]

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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I'd like to see some more comedic issues occasionally (preferably in April). Back in the days of Dragon magazine, I always really enjoyed the "joke" issues, with articles like the Ecology of the Adventurer, or the Ninja/Pirate/Dinosaur issue. The Player Companion line seems like a good fit for that.

Such an issue could include some things like "reject" magic items, options in the vein of Super Genius Games' Horrifically Overpowered Feats, and plenty of stuff about goblins. 'Cause goblins are always funny! The issue could also include things like a "jester" archetype or the like.

On a more serious note, you could have an article with advice about how to play comic-relief characters without derailing the adventure.

Looks like good stuff coming down the pipe; keep it up!

Dark Archive

more on Nagajin would be nice

Contributor

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Patrick Renie wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Patrick Renie wrote:
ChaosDoughnut wrote:
“People of” and “of Golarion“ stuff for Tian-Xia would be pretty cool. Kitsune, Nagaji, Wanshou, Hongal, Minkai... there are plenty of good topics to take a stab at.
Actually, you might take a look at the Dragon Empires Primer, which is pretty much exactly what you're talking about.
I think you might be misinterpreting ChaosDoughnut here, Patrick. He's saying that we could use some expansion on those topics. Two or three paragraphs about the kitsune will NEVER satisfy me! D:
Ha! Fair. This is not the first time I have seen people asking for more info on the races of the Dragon Empires. :]

I wonder how many of those times was me, screaming, "Kitsune, Patrick, KITSUNE!" at the top of my voice?


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Patrick Renie wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Patrick Renie wrote:
ChaosDoughnut wrote:
“People of” and “of Golarion“ stuff for Tian-Xia would be pretty cool. Kitsune, Nagaji, Wanshou, Hongal, Minkai... there are plenty of good topics to take a stab at.
Actually, you might take a look at the Dragon Empires Primer, which is pretty much exactly what you're talking about.
I think you might be misinterpreting ChaosDoughnut here, Patrick. He's saying that we could use some expansion on those topics. Two or three paragraphs about the kitsune will NEVER satisfy me! D:
Ha! Fair. This is not the first time I have seen people asking for more info on the races of the Dragon Empires. :]
I wonder how many of those times was me, screaming, "Kitsune, Patrick, KITSUNE!" at the top of my voice?

I want Tengu first before Kitsune, but kitsune would be cool. But I love Tengu, so I want the avians first. :)


vyshan wrote:
I want Tengu first before Kitsune, but kitsune would be cool. But I love Tengu, so I want the avians first. :)

Kitsune first! Though I'd be interested in a book on the Tengu as well ;)


Any sort of update to the things published before the CRB would be cool, and maybe "Monstrous Folk of Golarion" with rules for gnoll, lizardfolk, etc. PCs (Sahuagin would be cool too, but I doubt we'll ever see that)


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Tamago wrote:

I'd like to see some more comedic issues occasionally (preferably in April). Back in the days of Dragon magazine, I always really enjoyed the "joke" issues, with articles like the Ecology of the Adventurer, or the Ninja/Pirate/Dinosaur issue. The Player Companion line seems like a good fit for that.

Such an issue could include some things like "reject" magic items, options in the vein of Super Genius Games' Horrifically Overpowered Feats, and plenty of stuff about goblins. 'Cause goblins are always funny! The issue could also include things like a "jester" archetype or the like.

On a more serious note, you could have an article with advice about how to play comic-relief characters without derailing the adventure.

Looks like good stuff coming down the pipe; keep it up!

I'd love this, a bit of humor in gaming is always a good thing


Also to throw my hat in the ring, maybe in one of the future issues, have something like improved familiar, but for animal companions. You know, owlbears, ankhegs, bulettes, other unintellegent magical beasts for magic users with animal companions. Sorry if I misspelled anything


oh another idea!

monster pets of Golarion: needs a better title, but this is a book dealing with the more monsterous creatures that you can get as animal companions, familars and so on. For instance dinosaurs as animal companions should be in this book.

We had an animal book for this thing, so a more monsterous one would be cool :)


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1. Planar Handbook / People of the Great Beyond (with archetypes, traits and feats for characters traveling or living on outer planes... Planescape, Planescape, Planescape... and Todd Stewart !)

2. People of Magic (Nex, Geb, Mana Waste)

3. Blood of Genie

4. Gnolls of Golarion (this one is lacking for a katapeshi campaign)

5. Seafolks of Golarion / Blood of the Ocean (gillmen, merfolks, sea elves)

And also : Tengus of Golarion, Scalykinds of Golarion (with lizardfolks and nagaji), People of the Lake, People of the Jungle...

+ we need traits somewhere for Absalom characters
+ I don't like the "slayer" companions, they feel "blank".

Liberty's Edge

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Lev wrote:

+ we need traits somewhere for Absalom characters

I wouldn't mind seeing an entire book about Absalom done in the same manner as Varisia: Birthplace of Legends. This could be in companion to a new Campaign Setting book about Absalom in support of an Absalom AP, you know, the urban intrigue AP that never once leaves the metropolis that you guys are working on...


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lev wrote:
1. Planar Handbook / People of the Great Beyond (with archetypes, traits and feats for characters traveling or living on outer planes... Planescape, Planescape, Planescape... and Todd Stewart !)

I like this idea...though I would call it 'A Player's Guide to the Great Beyond'.

Also a book (as mention in another thread) about Characters seeking Redemption...and touching on playing some of the evil races would be nice. I know the other book(which I can't remember the title right now) had rules for redemption...but those were more geared towards Good PCs redeeming Evil NPCs.

Also a 'People of the Darklands' book would be cool.

Also a Blood of Fey' would be awesome...though you guy would need to come with a feytouched race before you do that I think.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Going off my above idea about 'A Player's Guide to The Great Beyond'...maybe change out Player with Adventurer...

Anyother other ideas occured to me of similair theme...like...

- 'A Player's Guide to Distant Worlds'
- 'A Player's Guide to The Darklands'

etc.


People of the Lost Kingdoms. Lirgen, Yamasa, and Sarkoris. An elf, dwarf, or gnome who grew up in either of those could easily still be alive and adventuring, and anyone from those nations at all with the right spells or magic items (Sun Orchid Extract) could still be around, not to mention that there are gonna be plenty of descendants from those places with a recent link to their ancestral homes.


ultimate classes sush as ultimate Fighter/ultimate Wizard and ultimate Cleric


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1) Blood of Shadow - more shadow magic feats/spells....some BARD shadow stuff especially....shadow familiars....a RANGED Shadowdancer-like prestige class....shadow bloodline feats

2) Artificers/Steampunk

3) Different types of "magic" - Time/Chrono spells, teleportation (1st to 3rd lvl), Counterspelling spells (Immediate action)

4) Familiars - more feats to make them useful such as granting them supernatural abilities, "official" feat to grant familiars to Bards/Magus, prestige class that ANY arcane caster can take to enhance their bond with their familiars

5) Scoundrels - scoundrel type feats, scoundrel prestige classes & more non-Sneak attack Rogue Talents that would enhance things like Acrobatics, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge or grant Supernatural abilities

6) the proposed MIND MAGIC!

7) Arcane feats where you can "spend" spells to do supernatural/spell like abilities

8) Initiate feats for the Golarion Gods


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The Skies of Golarion: Covering the winged races: Strix, Syrinx, & Tengu (who can gain flight abilities). It can also place in some traits and feats for aerial combat.

Blood of the Elements: The elemental races and the Suli.


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Should that be Fowl of Golarion?


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Askanipsion wrote:


8) Initiate feats for the Golarion Gods

I believe those are going to appear in the Inner Seas Gods book coming out soon.


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Something on the Order of 'Varisia: Birthplace of Legend' for more of the nations of Avistan, Garund, Casmeron, Tian Xia, etc...

As much as I have enjoyed many of the other ideas, that is what I really want more than anything else.


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Cheapy wrote:
Should that be Fowl of Golarion?

Cute. Very cute. :P

Someone on another thread suggested "Blood of Chicken" in a half-serious way as anticipating a Tengu book. Part of that thread had a suggestion for a winged folk companion book, but no really good names were forthcoming. I have put forth my suggestion...

But "Fowl of Golarion" suggests to me a monster book with avian creatures...or fly balls that cross the base line if one doesn't know how to spell.


Gorbacz wrote:

1. We need a Blood/People book covering the "planetouched" races.

2. While at it, "People of the Darklands".

I agree with both of these, and add a "Familiar Handbook" and "Blood of the Fey" to the list.

The latter should have information on the Changeling as well as some other races tied to nature. Kitsune, perhaps?


Hey Patrick, I'm interested to see if you have any thoughts on BPorter's post upthread on the nature of the Players Companion line:

LINK

As for ideas, I like the idea of
Players Guide to the Dark Tapestry;
Synthetics of Golarion (Androids and Constructs);
Players Guide to the Wastes (Mana Wastes and gunslinging gnolls),
Player's Guide to the Solar System/People of the same;
Players Guide to Numeria
Blood of the Scaled (Lizardfolk, Nagaji, Vishkanya)
Sap of the Green (Vegepymy, Ghoran)

Liberty's Edge

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

Something on the Order of 'Varisia: Birthplace of Legend' for more of the nations of Avistan, Garund, Casmeron, Tian Xia, etc...

As much as I have enjoyed many of the other ideas, that is what I really want more than anything else.

+1 to this. Varisia: Birthplace of Legends is probably one of the most useful Player Companion books I've seen and more like it would be greatly appreciated. Perhaps for major locations such as Absalom or Cheliax. People of the North was neat but I feel doesn't fill the same role since it talks more about the races and less about the location.

Paizo Employee Developer

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

Hey Patrick, I'm interested to see if you have any thoughts on BPorter's post upthread on the nature of the Players Companion line:

Sure! See my response below.

Paizo Employee Developer

BPorter wrote:
First, thank you for asking the customers for feedback.

Of course!

BPorter wrote:
Second, I apologize if this post seems argumentative or adversarial as that’s not my intent.

No worries. I wouldn't ask for feedback if I didn't want honest answers.

BPorter wrote:

I’ve been a fan of the Companion line since its inception, but I think it’s time to figure out what the Companion line is intended to be.

For me, the biggest draw and really the sole reason I would put a Companion book in a player’s hands is to provide an aid that would enable them to develop a character that is more closely tied to the Golarion world and any campaigns set within them. The early companions certainly did this in spades, but suffered from the valid criticism that they seemed more geared toward GM gazetteers than Player’s Companions. Of late, however, the Companion line seems to have swung too far the other way, turning primarily into a crunch-laden book. There are still elements of Golarion lore, of course, but they seem to have been scaled back to accommodate the new “Companion formula”. While there are exceptions, the Companion line has gone from a “must-buy” to a “will this really add to my game?” line.

The question of what Player Companions are supposed to be and how we can best serve the people we want to read them is one we consider very carefully, especially when we were planning the initial relaunch of the line in August 2012.

BPorter wrote:
Of the “new format” Companions, the Varissian one is the gold star – everything in that book adds to player’s knowledge of the region and integrating into various aspects of the setting. There have been some similarly strong entries: Knights and Pirates come to mind. I also enjoy some of the “Blood of …” entries as well but it seems we’re stretching the concept after the next few entries. While I don’t mind a “Blood of Genies” or somesuch, “Catfolk of Golarion” has no appeal, especially when there are still large swaths of the Inner Sea region that haven’t received decent “integrating your character” content.

There is a reason you haven't seen a Catfolk of Golarion yet, and it's largely because of the exact reason you mentioned—there's simply too many other cool books we want to hit on before we go there. Golarion lore is something that I've been very mindful of integrating into the Player Companions. I'm excited to see what people think of the treatment given to the forthcoming Blood of the Moon and Magical Marketplace, especially in regards to the balance of flavor and crunch.

BPorter wrote:
Entries like the Dungeoneer’s Handbook, Quests and Campaigns, and Dragonslayer’s Handbook hardly feel Golarion-centric. They’re needlessly crunch-heavy with feats, archetypes, equipment, and spells. They’re interesting ideas, but I think that they’re better fodder for the RPG line. They certainly are not something that I would hand to a player to read for inspiration on how to better integrate their characters in Golarion. In fact, they require more GM oversight than the early Companions. Much of the content is fine, I just think it would be better served in a different line. Either that or the Pathfinder Companion line should be renamed the Player Options line because some of these books are definitely losing their Golarion-specific focus.

This is good information to have.,The more our customers express their thoughts on the Player Companion line on the messageboards and in reviews, the more we can improve on our process and deliver the kinds of content that readers will enjoy.

BPorter wrote:
This next comment is an unfair comparison as it deals with a different setting, different publisher, and a game world with far fewer published words than Golarion. That said, when I think “Player’s Companion” I think of this line or books like the Varisia Player’s Companion. The line I’m referring to are the Player’s Guides from Kobold Press for the Midgard setting. These books also have archetypes, feats, traits, and spells but they are absolutely dripping with setting lore.

Yeah, that's a bit of a difficult comparison to make, though still a valid one. I've seen the Midgard Player's Guides and have been quite impressed with their presentation and content. One of the things that the Midgard setting has going for it is that it's still relatively young compared to the Pathfinder campaign setting (less in terms of age and more in terms of the sheer amount of material out there), so there's lots of room to develop new canon and build on the lore. With the Pathfinder campaign setting, we've already talked about a lot of stuff in a lot of different parts of the world, and have established a lot of canon. One of the jobs of Player Companions is to strike the balance between getting new readers the vital info they need to know about Nation X while at the same time pleasing long-time readers with new information about that region as well. We're continually refining this balance, and your feedback is valuable in this regard.

Anyway, thank you all for the thoughts and feedback! I haven't had as much time to dedicate to posting in this thread as I'd like, but rest assured that I've been reading all of your posts. :]


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Patrick, thanks for the lenghty reply. As always, Paizo's attention to customer feedback continues to impress.

With respect to your comments, the one piece I disagree with is this part:

Patrick Renie wrote:
One of the jobs of Player Companions is to strike the balance between getting new readers the vital info they need to know about Nation X while at the same time pleasing long-time readers with new information about that region as well. We're continually refining this balance, and your feedback is valuable in this regard.

See, for me, the point of the Player's Companion line isn't to please long-time readers with new info. If you can add new lore, that's a bonus, but satisfying the long-time reader should have the same level of focus as the new reader focus. For me, the Player's Companion line should be a GM-friendly tool - a way to impart world knowledge to players in a format that doesn't require the GM to deliver a speech or pages of text. That's why I used the Varisia book as an example, as a "long-time reader" there wasn't a lot of new info for me (except for the excellent city stat blocks) but as a GM I loved the content that could be made readily available to the players.

That's the point I was trying to make, that the line is better served as a GM game aid for character creation/integration rather than a smaller-crunch options book.

Liberty's Edge

BPorter wrote:

Patrick, thanks for the lenghty reply. As always, Paizo's attention to customer feedback continues to impress.

With respect to your comments, the one piece I disagree with is this part:

Patrick Renie wrote:
One of the jobs of Player Companions is to strike the balance between getting new readers the vital info they need to know about Nation X while at the same time pleasing long-time readers with new information about that region as well. We're continually refining this balance, and your feedback is valuable in this regard.

See, for me, the point of the Player's Companion line isn't to please long-time readers with new info.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but on first reading that line feels very egotistical to me. Neither you nor I get to determine what the point of any of Paizo's product lines is.

BPorter wrote:

If you can add new lore, that's a bonus, but satisfying the long-time reader should have the same level of focus as the new reader focus.

So basically what Patrick said above, at least that is how I interpret what he said.

BPorter wrote:

For me, the Player's Companion line should be a GM-friendly tool - a way to impart world knowledge to players in a format that doesn't require the GM to deliver a speech or pages of text. That's why I used the Varisia book as an example, as a "long-time reader" there wasn't a lot of new info for me (except for the excellent city stat blocks) but as a GM I loved the content that could be made readily available to the players.

As a long time reader I found new information in there.

BPorter wrote:
That's the point I was trying to make, that the line is better served as a GM game aid for character creation/integration rather than a smaller-crunch options book.

Basically I feel the need to voice my opposition to BPorter's viewpoint. I am, in general, pleased with the current balance of flavor to crunch, as well as the balance of old information re-presented to new information.

There has been a book or two that held my interest less, I can't name any specifically at the moment, but I really like the turn the line took starting with the new Varisia book. Yes I realize BPorter also likes this book. I disagree with negative feelings regarding other books, for instance Dungeoneers Handbook. I loved this book. I found it to be a neat addition and it nicely filled a niche in my collection. I understand BPorters point regarding the theme not being so Golarion-centric. I feel this is acceptable. Dungeoneers Handbook is exactly where it belongs in the various lines. At least until Paizo adds a line of books, similar to the Player Companion line that is Campaign neutral like the RPG line. If such a line existed then Dungeoneers Handbook would belong there, with some modifications. I don't want to lose good content, like Dungeoneers Handbook, just because it doesn't "fit the line" perfectly.

In all honesty, if the crunch dropped off I would have to reevaluate my subscription. I'm reading that and it sounds egotistical and threatening to me. I don't mean it that way, I just can't come up with a better way to get what I want to say across.

EDIT: edited for clarity


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Graywulfe,

1. The thread specifically was asking for feedback. If I can't express what I'd like to see in this thread, where exactly CAN I?

From Paizo's Pathfinder product page: "Pathfinder Player Companion
supplements give players the edge to survive the dangers of the Pathfinder world. Each monthly sourcebook provides an in-depth look at one aspect of Golarion, from an exhaustive overview of a player character race like elves or an exploration of an influential kingdom like Cheliax or Andoran. Each supplement contains plenty of new rules like feats, traits, or equipment designed specifically with players in mind."

-- My stance is that it's out of balance - the Golarion lore is suffering in favor of increased crunch.

I cited examples of the line and another setting's line that I felt struck a better balance of Golarion-lore-to-crunch than others and did so as respectfully as I could.

If all of that equates to sounding "very egotistical", then I guess I'll leave it at different strokes and whatnot.

2. That's a typo on my part. I meant it to say "satisfying the long-time reader shouldn't have the same level of focus". Long-time readers, many of who are likely GMs, have the APs and Campaign Setting line to cater to their tastes. I'm not going to turn over a 64-page Campaign Setting book to a player - I don't want them to know all the content and it's not realistic to expect them to read that large a book to establish a character in a campaign. If the Player Companion isn't going to be the GM aid for assiting players in developing characters that are tied to the setting, what product line IS going to do that?

3. So you found new info in the book I'm holding up as an example of "content I want" where I say that there "wasn't a lot new"? (Note: I didn't say I found nothing new.) I'm going to count that as a win for both us...

4. No problem. You like the new format and a heavy dose of crunch. Many posting in this thread seem to share that opinion. Some seem much more concerned about new player options and less concerned with Golarion lore/character intergration. This was why I suggest that if that's the route the line needs to take, Player's Options make more sense than the Player's Companion since it would clearly demark a distinction from where the line originated (as Player's Companion originated as a player-friendly vehicle for imparting Golarion lore).

As for saying you'd have to reevaluate your subscription if the line isn't meeting your needs, why is that egotistical & threatening? Would it be better for Paizo to not hear customers say "this would get me to subscribe" or "this would cause me to cancel" and then see subscriptions drop off and then have to assess why that's happening? I suppose if you throw a temper-tantrum on the forums that's egotistical or threatening but I don't think my original post or yours meets that criteria. We just want different things from the line.

Liberty's Edge

BPorter wrote:
snipped completely reasonable points

It was not my intention to tell you, or anyone else for that matter, that you could not express what you wanted to see. My apologies for giving you that impression.

1. My first comment was specifically in regards to your sentence speaking about the point of the line. To me the only who can say what the point of something is that things creator. It would be like me telling you what the point of your post is.

I also stated that it came across that way on the first reading. I should have elaborated. After re-reading your post several times I realized that you were not trying to tell Paizo the purpose of their line but rather that you were trying to give context for the rest of your post by providing what you understood the purpose of the line to be, at least that is how I perceived your post. I almost struck my comment about the "egotistical" sentence before sending. I only included it to give you an outside perspective on how your sentence could be perceived. Clearly, if I was not willing to be clear myself, I should have kept my mouth shut.

2. I thought it was a strange line given the rest of the post. A typo certainly explains that.

We, apparently, have completely different expectations of our players. I will gladly hand over a 64 page book to my players to get a feel for an area. I will also tell them what sections to definitely read, and what sections to absolutely not read, even if that means blocking out sections of text with Post-Its. As a player, I play both roles in my various groups, I have no problem investing in a book for myself for a section of the world I am interested in. I also will not read certain things if my GM specifically calls out things for me to avoid, the major reason I am not a charter Pathfinder AP subscriber is that my friend was going to run Rise and asked me not to get the AP.

In answer to your question in point 2: I don't see why the line can't serve both masters, with some books being more like what you are describing, like the Varisia Companion, and other books being more like Dungeoneers Handbook, being less about regurgitating old information in new and interesting ways and more about giving new information. In fact this is what I see the line as being so far, and I am quite happy with it.

3.Agreed

4.Fair enough.

In truth, the primary reason I responded to your post was that I found that I could best articulate what I wanted by using your post as a counterpoint and springboard.

The other reason being that I have watched companies do things I absolutely horrible things after I sat and ignored people complaining about things I liked on that company's messageboards. Basically, too few people speak up to defend things they like and it seems like no one likes things as they are. I have learned my lesson and make an effort to speak up when I like something, so that hopefully things that I like stick around.

The Exchange

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Constructs of Golarion - A break down on androids, clockworks, goloms, and other 'creations' walking around Golarion. Maybe also options for Summoners to 'summon' one of these instead of a living Eideolon.

Guardians of Golarion - Details about the various guardian angels, divine agents, and tricksters that walk the world aiding and advising heroes. Options for divine familars and cohorts.

'CLASS' of Golarion - You covered races, it's time to do class books.

People of the Shadows - Criminals, thugs, mob bosses, and thief guild informations.

People of the Grave - Many people in Golarion live under the power or threat of the undead. Worse yet, many seek out this state of unbeing as a solution to the frailties of mortality. A book covering those lost in the mire outside of Pharasmas's grasp.

People of Sail - A counterpoint to the Pirate's book. This case talking about the races who live by boats, archtypes for boat based character builds.

People of Wonder - Impossible Kingdoms player's guide! Give me Vudra info!

People of the Wastes - Worldwound, Numeria, etc. The harsh landscapes and those that carve a living from them.

People of the Jungle - Mwangi Expanse and jungle lifestyle.

Nightmare Hunters Handbook - Some poor souls have to hunt down aberrations and their terrifying creations. Mix in some Dark Tapestry critters and issues and you got a great sourcebook.

Giant Hunters Handbook - Pretty obvious, but include Kaiju hunting rules too!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
graywulfe wrote:

In truth, the primary reason I responded to your post was that I found that I could best articulate what I wanted by using your post as a counterpoint and springboard.

The other reason being that I have watched companies do things I absolutely horrible things after I sat and ignored people complaining about things I liked on that company's messageboards. Basically, too few people speak up to defend things they like and it seems like no one likes things as they are. I have learned my lesson and make an effort to speak up when I like something, so that hopefully things that I like stick around.

All good, amigo. My post originated from a similar mindset. If someone is advocating for X but I want Y and I don't tell the company I want Y when asked, I can't really fault the company for not delvering content that I like. I prefer to advocate from the "this is what I like, keep doing it" standpoint when possible.

Dark Archive

TheLoneCleric wrote:

Constructs of Golarion - A break down on androids, clockworks, goloms, and other 'creations' walking around Golarion. Maybe also options for Summoners to 'summon' one of these instead of a living Eideolon.

Guardians of Golarion - Details about the various guardian angels, divine agents, and tricksters that walk the world aiding and advising heroes. Options for divine familars and cohorts.

People of the Shadows - Criminals, thugs, mob bosses, and thief guild informations.

People of the Grave - Many people in Golarion live under the power or threat of the undead. Worse yet, many seek out this state of unbeing as a solution to the frailties of mortality. A book covering those lost in the mire outside of Pharasmas's grasp.

People of Wonder - Impossible Kingdoms player's guide! Give me Vudra info!

People of the Wastes - Worldwound, Numeria, etc. The harsh landscapes and those that carve a living from them.

People of the Jungle - Mwangi Expanse and jungle lifestyle.

Nightmare Hunters Handbook - Some poor souls have to hunt down aberrations and their terrifying creations. Mix in some Dark Tapestry critters and issues and you got a great sourcebook.

I picked out the ones I liked most. Good stuff!

People of the Shadows, I like most. Something real and meaty dealing with rogues training, criminal organizations, shadowy guilds, etc., etc. would be awesome. Many classes, IMO, could stand to be tied into guild structures, from wizard's academies to church hierarchies to fighting schools and mercenary companies and standing armies. Even druidic circles and bardic colleges, from back in the day. But rogues really scream out for a 'thieves guild,' and a product that deal with both city-based organizations (and where they'd find room for non-rogues, as the guild spellcaster, or cleric of the god of thievery, or mercenary legbreakers and enforcers) and rural organizations (such as bandits and brigands).

The Nightmare Hunters Book also sounds fun. I really liked 3.X's Draconomicon and Libris Mortis, and was pleasantly surprised at how well the similar book focused on Aberrations was, since they don't always seem as tight a fit, thematically.

Guardians of Golarion is intriguing. I like the notion that *anyone,* not just a cleric, could have a guardian spirit, perhaps represented less by an actual companion or familiar, and more by a feat that allows you to reroll this or that once a day or so, as your 'guardian angel' whispers guidance into your ear (or pushes you out of the way of a fireball!).

Contributor

I too feel the need to play devil's advocate to BPorter's post. Huzzah!

Before I get in too deep into these points, I think its important to note what type of consumer I am. I am primarily a Core Rulebook line bloke, purchasing Player Companions only when the theme of the product intrigues me or when I've discovered that the product has a piece of game crunch that I'm interested in. To name some examples, I bought Blood of Angels and Blood of Fiends because the idea of a look into aasimar / tiefling psychology and physiology intrigued me. I bought the Pathfinder Society Field Guide solely for the Lore Warden fighter archetype, on the other hand.

I'm also one of those hack Third-Party authors, but you don't want to hear about that. :-P

"BPorter wrote:

I’ve been a fan of the Companion line since its inception, but I think it’s time to figure out what the Companion line is intended to be.

For me, the biggest draw and really the sole reason I would put a Companion book in a player’s hands is to provide an aid that would enable them to develop a character that is more closely tied to the Golarion world and any campaigns set within them. The early companions certainly did this in spades, but suffered from the valid criticism that they seemed more geared toward GM gazetteers than Player’s Companions. Of late, however, the Companion line seems to have swung too far the other way, turning primarily into a crunch-laden book. There are still elements of Golarion lore, of course, but they seem to have been scaled back to accommodate the new “Companion formula”. While there are exceptions, the Companion line has gone from a “must-buy” to a “will this really add to my game?” line.

I agree with this complaint, but I don't necessarily endorse it. I play solely in homegrown campaign settings, from the one I GM to the ones I play in, so while I agree that the Player Companions do not 100% focus on how to play a character in a specific setting, I also appreciate that there are options in the companion line that I can pick up and enjoy.

I also don't think that it is a bad thing that Paizo isn't throwing a new "must-buy" product at GMs and Players every month. People are still a little sole from the Rulebook overload in 3.5, after all, and people enjoy choice.

"BPorter wrote:
Of the “new format” Companions, the Varissian one is the gold star – everything in that book adds to player’s knowledge of the region and integrating into various aspects of the setting. There have been some similarly strong entries: Knights and Pirates come to mind. I also enjoy some of the “Blood of …” entries as well but it seems we’re stretching the concept after the next few entries. While I don’t mind a “Blood of Genies” or somesuch, “Catfolk of Golarion” has no appeal, especially when there are still large swaths of the Inner Sea region that haven’t received decent “integrating your character” content.

At the same time, I would argue that players of catfolk (as few as they might be) would argue against this, claiming that there is a need. As a matter of fact, its humorous to me that you chose catfolk as your example because as far as I'm aware, they've had no solid grounding in Golarion print-wise. You've got the Creative Director's suggestions, but nothing firmly established in canon for that race and many others in the various Bestiaries.

I don't own Knights of the Inner Sea, but I do own Pirates of the Inner Sea, and I'm a little surprised that you enjoyed that one as much as you noted. That book is hugely crunch-oriented, after all.

Patrick Renie, the Great Spirit Llama wrote:
There is a reason you haven't seen a Catfolk of Golarion yet, and it's largely because of the exact reason you mentioned—there's simply too many other cool books we want to hit on before we go there. Golarion lore is something that I've been very mindful of integrating into the Player Companions. I'm excited to see what people think of the treatment given to the forthcoming Blood of the Moon and Magical Marketplace, especially in regards to the balance of flavor and crunch.

See my comment above. It can be frustrating when you want to play something and there is absolutely no information available. Varisia has an entry in the Inner Sea World Guide. The catfolk of Golarion have a couple forum posts written by James. People who want to play catfolk could end up being told they can't for this reason, which can feel pretty bad, m'kay.

BPorter wrote:
Entries like the Dungeoneer’s Handbook, Quests and Campaigns, and Dragonslayer’s Handbook hardly feel Golarion-centric. They’re needlessly crunch-heavy with feats, archetypes, equipment, and spells. They’re interesting ideas, but I think that they’re better fodder for the RPG line. They certainly are not something that I would hand to a player to read for inspiration on how to better integrate their characters in Golarion. In fact, they require more GM oversight than the early Companions. Much of the content is fine, I just think it would be better served in a different line. Either that or the Pathfinder Companion line should be renamed the Player Options line because some of these books are definitely losing their Golarion-specific focus.

To be honest, I bought Quests and Companions because it was very clear to me that it wasn't Golarion-centric. I wanted more story feats and downtime spells, and mass combat spells. I was not disappointed with my purchase. Dragonslayer's Handbook was a much less interesting purchase for me, I felt that it was very scattered. It had some ideas that I thought were awesome, but were never pursued in enough detail to be worth it. Case in point, dragoncrafting. Love the idea, but the four-or-five items you can craft with that feat are not worth the investment. I agree with your point that those books do not feel like something that is player-focused. In my opinion, a book about killing dragons is even more specific than a book about catfolk. All in all, that book felt like a watered-down Draconomicon to me.

The Exchange

Set, I agree you about People of Shadow. I noticed you didn't like the 'Class' books and frankly you are right. I'd rather they handle them based on someone's role in society.

People of the Wilds - Rangers/Druids/Barbarians and the tribes that live in the wild lands.

People of the Tome - Bards, Wizards, Libraries and archivists the world over. The knowledge seekers.

People of the Road- Entertainers, con-men, travelling storytellers. The nomadic circus and road called sorts who always drift from place to place.

Would be better than just a Bards of Golarion book.

Nightmare Hunter's Handbook could include feats for those scared mentally by the monsters outside of reality. Maybe 'crazy' rage feats. Etc.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

people of the darklands would be an amazing opportunity, I would love to hear about the races of the darklands especially the serpentfolk, dark folk, duergar, and urdefaden with a focus on those races that we don't really hear about much down there.

Hobgoblins of golarion would be an amazing opportunity to give us something crazy and interesting since, at least in my mind, the hobgoblin is by far the most human friendly monster of the group. They are the LE civilized war machines of the world who can not only field armies and make true war like most of humanity understands it but can also be theoretically reasoned with and expected to keep to their deals. All that has always made for a far more interesting enemy dynamic on a national scale then any of the other options.

Love the idea of an artificers handbook but what about some stuff for some of the weird races to walk out of inner sea bestiary like android or the plant people who's name is escaping me right now?

Silver Crusade

How about a Blood of Dragons Players Companion book, something that focuses on half dragons in Golarion. You could even do what was done in Demons Revisited and have variant dragon abilities for the template based on the other dragon types in the setting where it makes sense. Abilities that could in turn be used with both the draconic sorceror bloodline and the dragon disciple prestige class. Granted the product is very niche, but its something I would pay good money to see done right.

Grand Lodge

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Royal Bloodlines of the Inner sea.

a book that introduces Royal Magic (i am thinking of birthright right now) but a series of feats and spells that are enhanced by each other that affect royal blooded characters. I am thinking like mythic characters but not quite so awesome. plenty of stories of various bloodlines including Taldor,Cheliax and Oserion...etc..
royal blood archetypes and how to use royal blood in rituals.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

Royal Bloodlines of the Inner sea.

a book that introduces Royal Magic (i am thinking of birthright right now) but a series of feats and spells that are enhanced by each other that affect royal blooded characters. I am thinking like mythic characters but not quite so awesome. plenty of stories of various bloodlines including Taldor,Cheliax and Oserion...etc..
royal blood archetypes and how to use royal blood in rituals.

The American in me recoils in horror at the thought. T'aint nothin' special 'bout no nobles.


Distant Scholar wrote:
Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

Royal Bloodlines of the Inner sea.

a book that introduces Royal Magic (i am thinking of birthright right now) but a series of feats and spells that are enhanced by each other that affect royal blooded characters. I am thinking like mythic characters but not quite so awesome. plenty of stories of various bloodlines including Taldor,Cheliax and Oserion...etc..
royal blood archetypes and how to use royal blood in rituals.

The American in me recoils in horror at the thought. T'aint nothin' special 'bout no nobles.

Unless you consider generations of glorified oppression to be special.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Distant Scholar wrote:
Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

Royal Bloodlines of the Inner sea.

a book that introduces Royal Magic (i am thinking of birthright right now) but a series of feats and spells that are enhanced by each other that affect royal blooded characters. I am thinking like mythic characters but not quite so awesome. plenty of stories of various bloodlines including Taldor,Cheliax and Oserion...etc..
royal blood archetypes and how to use royal blood in rituals.

The American in me recoils in horror at the thought. T'aint nothin' special 'bout no nobles.

Magic doesn't work, either.

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