[Fire Mountain Games] Throne of Night


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Alice in Blunderland wrote:

My material was written from the standpoint of a person with players with 25 point buys and 2 extra skill points per level, so it may need a very slight amount of adjusting.

My players are 25 points with 2 extra skill points as well. Excellent.


I receieved an email from KS asking how I felt about the service I received regarding my trouble ticket. My response is below. Again, please tell them how you feel - but be civil.

This ticket has been rated as "Bad, I'm unsatisfied"

With the following comment:

This project is long overdue, and the creator has ignored the backers for about a year now. He is however, still permitted to log onto Kickstarter and back other projects. I expected more results than a "copy and paste" letter, which is what I feel that I have received.


Steve Geddes wrote:

If I was you I definitely wouldn't take over this project in anything other than a 'here's some stuff you might like from a fan'. There's two main reasons to steer clear of any official entanglement, in my view:

1. Behavior on the internet being as reasonable as it is - it's almost inevitable that, should you release anything that looks anything like an 'official replacement', someone will attach the opprobrium and ill-will Gary has generated via this project to you personally.

2. Should you pull it off without explicit signoff from Gary, you probably open yourself up to a lawsuit on breach of copyright and/or IP theft.

It'd be weird to see Gary coming out of the dark just to sue someone. I think he'd kind of be exposing himself to a lot of risks.


It wouldn't involve him having to talk to anyone else, so I don't see what he'd be risking really - reputation? :o

I accept the above advice may well be overly paranoid - nonetheless, it's worth bearing in mind that no matter how badly he's treated us I can't see how he doesn't still have the legal rights to all the Throne of Night IP.

I'd hate to see someone step in for the good of the community, make a success of it and then find themselves liable in that way.


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I dont think protecting your ip is really a bad thing sometimes. He wouldn't be patent trolling


At this point, I'd be more concerned about Gary seeing your work and stealing bits from it to plug into his material.

Grand Lodge

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Firstbourne wrote:
At this point, I'd be more concerned about Gary seeing your work and stealing bits from it to plug into his material.

I've said myself, and David has agreed, anything we've put up online is fair game. If Gary ended up using it, we wouldn't even care. At this point we'd just be happy that the project was being completed.


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Agreed. A complete project would be wonders, even if he did steal my fan material to do so.

The kickstarter has went on far too long and even I lost my patience with it. That's sad, because I'm usually a patient person and try to be as understanding as possible.

At this point, I would hand him the script if it meant we get our books in the next few months.

Grand Lodge

Alice in Blunderland wrote:

Agreed. A complete project would be wonders, even if he did steal my fan material to do so.

The kickstarter has went on far too long and even I lost my patience with it. That's sad, because I'm usually a patient person and try to be as understanding as possible.

At this point, I would hand him the script if it meant we get our books in the next few months.

I'm the exact same way. It takes a lot to get under my skin when it comes to this kind of stuff, and even more so if I have any kind of respect for you. Anyone here or at the KS can attest that I've been more than patient or optimistic regarding this project, and some have even let me know that they're shocked and saddened that I'm the one who's pushing people to now push the Kickstarter staff to do something about him and his lack of communication. In all honesty, this was completely avoidable. All he had to do was put aside his pride, and let people help him when things got tough.

Whatever happens, at least we know we did our part and didn't sit idly by.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Sorry you guys are having problems still, I feel for you.
Mekton Zero was supposed to be out March 2014.


I've also complained to KS and got a standard letter back...


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I am posting a few teasers for people interested in the upcoming fan material that I made.

I'm only adding some juicy highlights here to keep you all occupied while I work on formatting everything for the PDFs.

These are in no order whatsoever and are just things I am putting down to pique interest.

Fan-Made Book Three Spoilers, DMs ONLY!:
- An iron golem inhabited by the spirit of its maker, a master smith, who could end up serving the PCs.

- A Morrigna who has shown up to determine the fate of Dammerhall's inhabitants, as few souls have escaped the mountain, and find the source of a growing evil within the ruined kingdom.

- A ghostly legion of Dwarven warriors who swore their eternal souls to guard their king... who later killed himself when the kingdom was under siege. Their souls still haunt the ruins of the throne room and await someone worthy of wearing the crown. The legion won't recognize just any ruler though and the PCs must prove themselves worthy of the crown and the legion's service or else enlist the Morrigna's help in ousting them in order to claim Dammerhall.

- The undead remains of the dragon who was instrumental in destroying the nation of Dammerhall... along with its Arkenstone-like cursed hoard.

- The mad son of the former High King of the Dwarves, whose mastery of Dwarven rune magic carried over beyond the grave.

- Kobold squatters and their devious traps for that classic, old-school feel. Beware, these Kobolds are far more cunning than most!

- A vat of sentient liquid mithril that housed the Dwarven people's entire history. Let your imagination figure out the rest.

- Rules for kingdom-building in Dammerhall and what you can expect from a city ruled by either the Explorers or Tyrants side of the campaign. Both have different unique kingdom events, groups who wish to curry their favor, and more.

- A soul-eating horror whose presence foreshadows the cosmic horrors coming in later books.

So while book one's theme was underground civilizations and book two's themes were primeval life and furious elementals, my version of book three's themes are undead ruins and lost relics.

I think I will tease one more cool thing in the book every day until I release the first first PDF.

Sound like it's all biscuits and gravy?


Kryzbyn wrote:

Sorry you guys are having problems still, I feel for you.

Mekton Zero was supposed to be out March 2014.

I'm sorry for that but with ToN it's not really the delay all that much (at least for me). While I would want to finally get my stuff I'd be ok wih more waiting time if I WOULD F#!%ING KNOW WHAT THE F$@+ IS GOING ON and not be treated like a piece if s~$& by a man I gave a lot of money to so he could work on something of a pet project. THAT is what irks me and why I'm so fed up with this "project". With Mekong you're getting regular updates at least.

Apart from that: wrote to kickstarter, got the same lousy copy&paste answer everybody else did.

Would appreciate material from you Alice. Thank you for offering it. And yes, sounds great.

Also once again thanks to you Derek for keeping this afloat.

Grand Lodge

I'm in the same boat as Lord_Hyperion. I was more than willing to give Gary the full five years you're allowed to complete a Kickstarter, but the lack communication, the inability to take five seconds to go "still working on ToN, thanks for the patience, 'kay love you bye-bye", and continually backing other projects when he signed on, was just too much. It didn't help matters that his other project, the deck of cards, ignored those who'd paid and never received their decks. I got mine, but lots of others didn't, and this was evident in the comments. I had to explain to them what was going on and the current situation with ToN. It just got to be too much over time. Out of everyone, I think I'm the person who feels the most betrayed.

Alice, that sounds great so far. There were a few I never would have even considered coming up with. That's very cool indeed. Look forward to seeing the entirety of the PDF.


Alice in Blunderland wrote:

I am posting a few teasers for people interested in the upcoming fan material that I made.

I'm only adding some juicy highlights here to keep you all occupied while I work on formatting everything for the PDFs.

These are in no order whatsoever and are just things I am putting down to pique interest.

** spoiler omitted **

So while book one's theme was underground...

Sounds very interesting. I look forward to it :-)


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Been a tad bit busy with stuff lately, but here's the promised spoilers in a bundle.

I decided to reveal things that could be drastically different depending on whether you or Explorer or Tyrant, or even whether your Explorers are evil/morally gray.

It may be seen that Drow have a little bit harder time of it in this adventure but that is by design. For one, they are a much more powerful race than Dwarves. For another, Dammerhall was the Dwarven capital and so it makes sense that Dwarves would be more able to handle the stuff than Drow. Stay calm, Drow have an easier go of things when it is time for their capital to pop up in a later book.

Spoilers for Book 3:
A Dwarven defender who was willing to sacrifice everything for her people and is remembered to this day as one of the greatest heroes of the age. The pact that she secretly swore in desperation to help her aid the Dwarven people in their escape has taken its toll on her and exists now a dark shadow of what she once was. Can you strike down the hero of your people to free her from the curse that consumes her mind, body, and soul? Or do you see her as a tool that can be molded into the perfect servant?

A crown in the form of a Cassisian. Are you worthy to take up the Crown of Yore and begin a new chapter for the Dwarven people? Or will you twist and break the creature to serve as the instrument of tyrants?

A colossal-sized golem... no, I'm not joking. While it was heavily damaged and is near destroyed, it is a formidable opponent. Dwarves might recall the phrase used to bypass the golem but the magic sustaining the golem is haywire and all the phrase manages to do is just make it behave erratically instead of being COMPLETELY focused on murdering them. Drow, well, they'll just have to improvise.


Alice in Blunderland wrote:

Been a tad bit busy with stuff lately, but here's the promised spoilers in a bundle.

I decided to reveal things that could be drastically different depending on whether you or Explorer or Tyrant, or even whether your Explorers are evil/morally gray.

It may be seen that Drow have a little bit harder time of it in this adventure but that is by design. For one, they are a much more powerful race than Dwarves. For another, Dammerhall was the Dwarven capital and so it makes sense that Dwarves would be more able to handle the stuff than Drow. Stay calm, Drow have an easier go of things when it is time for their capital to pop up in a later book.

** spoiler omitted **

I am still loving every spoiler you share about your campaign. I wish I would have been a player in it.

Can't wait to drop this goodness on my players.

Grand Lodge

Just shared this on the KS too, but for those interested, Louis Porter Jr. just discussed his thoughts and feelings on Throne of Night and Transparency on KS. I made sure to have the link set to the exact time he does so. (Before this it was about the Razor Coast KS.)


I am about to post an update and probably launch into a small diatribe. As usual, my fan work spoilers will be in a spoiler tag and I will do the same for my diatribe.

Before launching into my diatribe let me say that I did some research on copyright laws for fan fiction and that to avoid messy legal entanglements I will use generic terms for things that already exist in the AP, at least the ten or so NPCs I got ideas from by looking at the pictures and their captions. and the existing locales in the game.

So, instead of 'Dammerhall', it will be listed for DMs as <Dwarven Kingdom>. It's a small but obnoxious concession that has to be made. Instead of 'Vothis', it will be <Drow Outpost>. I'm sure that everyone here is reasonably intelligent and can fill in the blanks.

This is going to mean that the adventures will take some extra time to complete while I scrub every potential IP-infringing name out of them.

I will be on World of Warcraft testing out my new Demon Hunter later today, so that will set back things a day as well.

Diatribe about fanfiction copyright:
It is apparently illegal to produce FREE FAN FICTION USING OFFICIAL CHARACTERS HERE IN AMERICA! What kind of stick-up-the-sphincter nonsense is that?

I can certainly see not being allowed to use official characters in a way that generates profit, but NONPROFIT works of imagination possibly carrying a fine? Abso-freaking-lutely ridiculous!

I read that Anne Rice literally was able to shut down free fanfiction sites and file legal suits against people who wrote 'Interview with a Vampire' fan fiction on the internet! She was brilliant writing that story but that is pure, unadultered lunacy trying to shut down fans creating their own fanverses.

Whatever happened to freedom of speech and expression? It's honestly revolting that in what is, ostensibly, a sane and reasonable society that copyright law can even extend into the nonprofit domain of fan fiction.

But enough ranting. I just wanted to say how much I am annoyed by that particular slice of BS.

Ruined Kingdom spoilers, DM-only:
- The cosmic horror that I mentioned is a unique creature that is similar to both a Doppelganger and a Devourer but has its own suite of powers including powerful psychic magic, a shifting corporeality, and an aura of maddening whispers.

Since I now have access to Horror Adventures, I am going to put annotations for how to adjust the encounter if you are using the new sanity sanity system.


I'm confused regarding the "fan fiction" stuff. What you are preparing to do is share with us the story of how your game played out. How is that copyright infringement?
I tell people about my games all the time, but Paizo doesn't come after me when I do. What about all the mod threads on this site about Kingmaker and how to alter / improve it? No lawsuits there. How does what you are doing differ from this?
Don't get me wrong - I want you to take every necessary step to protect yourself from nonsense. I just don't understand how copyright is an issue here.


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kevin_video wrote:
Just shared this on the KS too, but for those interested, Louis Porter Jr. just discussed his thoughts and feelings on Throne of Night and Transparency on KS. I made sure to have the link set to the exact time he does so. (Before this it was about the Razor Coast KS.)

That was painful to watch / listen to. For those of you that have lost enough money to this project and don't wanna lose time as well, let me sum it up. Louis Porter Jr. takes 40 minutes to say that Kick Starters that implode are bad. He reads to you from the internet, and then says how bad everything is.


I am actually compiling all the notes from my game and putting together a rough outline of the rest of the campaign, as I see it. Statblocks, story, my graph paper maps, and all that. All my own creations but it all was originally intended for my home game to continue the existing ToN game.

I got paranoid after an earlier comment that I read and researched it and publishers actually can go after people who use even a single character or locale from their story in things like 4chan fanfiction threads. It's pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

So if I use the actual word Dammerhall in my fan material that people can see, that actually, somehow, infringes on IP despite it only being the name and no one knowing any real specifics about McBride's Dammerhall.

The only way that I could put these things in something to be distributed, even for free, is to get McBride's permission. Since he has not responded to anyone's emails in... how long... that is impossible. So I will scrub the entire thing clean of any official references and format the adventures as if they happen in a vacuum.

If you really get into copyright law and do some heavy research into it, it will make you paranoid and probably tick you off at how ridiculous it is. As it stands right now, the only lawsuit-free legal right people have to fan fiction is in their heads.


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I don't think I've ever heard of a lawsuit over fanfiction.

The OGL is a completely separate issue, though, even if the content you're releasing is free. You'll definitely want to pay attention to that, and maybe ask questions here if you're unsure about any aspect of it. ^^


Firstbourne wrote:

I'm confused regarding the "fan fiction" stuff. What you are preparing to do is share with us the story of how your game played out. How is that copyright infringement?

I tell people about my games all the time, but Paizo doesn't come after me when I do. What about all the mod threads on this site about Kingmaker and how to alter / improve it? No lawsuits there. How does what you are doing differ from this?
Don't get me wrong - I want you to take every necessary step to protect yourself from nonsense. I just don't understand how copyright is an issue here.

It's not the reporting of how the official stuff played out that would be an issue.

My concern was at the suggestion of stepping in to complete ToN on Gary's behalf - including (I presumed) publishing later adventures using his IP (such as locations, NPCs, etcetera from the early books). That could be a risk.


GM Rednal wrote:

I don't think I've ever heard of a lawsuit over fanfiction.

The OGL is a completely separate issue, though, even if the content you're releasing is free. You'll definitely want to pay attention to that, and maybe ask questions here if you're unsure about any aspect of it. ^^

It depends on the quality of the fan fiction. Recently, there was a fan made Star Trek movie "Axanar" that was obviously not from Paramount, and apparently there was some sort of legal action/intellectual property lawsuit.


Well I'll say that you should do whatever necessary to make you (feel) safe. Take all the time you need (we ARE kinda good at waiting around here ^^). Thank you for all the efforts you take. Looking absolutely forward to seeing your material/campaign. With that and the stuff from kevin_video I hope to be able to finally get something salvaged from this trainwreck. Thumbs up!!


Alice: If you are looking to continue the story, I strongly recommend listening to the Know Direction Paizocon 2016 Pathfinder Compatible Publishers Workshop podcast. Looks like it's PaizoCon2016 number 040.

Here's what (I recall) you can do: Anything you write as a follow up to what is currently published will need all new NPC's. For instance, if you want Knivy Ivy to continue as an NPC, she cannot without Gary's Permission. However, you can introduce a new, eerily similar NPC for the players to meet. Also, you won't be able to reference any proper nouns from Throne of Night. You won't be able to use any art from Throne of Night.

I'm not trying to discourage you, I'd love to see your work. But I don't want to see you get in trouble either.

Grand Lodge

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Hopefully Kevin, aka thatguy, doesn't mind, but I thought I'd share his blog post that he put on the KS comments page.

When Fire Mountain Came Tumbling Down. It even comes with musical lyrics.


Itchy wrote:

Alice: If you are looking to continue the story, I strongly recommend listening to the Know Direction Paizocon 2016 Pathfinder Compatible Publishers Workshop podcast. Looks like it's PaizoCon2016 number 040.

Here's what (I recall) you can do: Anything you write as a follow up to what is currently published will need all new NPC's. For instance, if you want Knivy Ivy to continue as an NPC, she cannot without Gary's Permission. However, you can introduce a new, eerily similar NPC for the players to meet. Also, you won't be able to reference any proper nouns from Throne of Night. You won't be able to use any art from Throne of Night.

I'm not trying to discourage you, I'd love to see your work. But I don't want to see you get in trouble either.

Good point! Nobody would want Alice to get into trouble.

Though I guess it´s easily done (if time-consuming). I mean I guess most of us will be able to make jump to Axing Evy, a new NPC that arrives only moments after Knivy Ivy died a sad and painful death. Also most might know what to make of "the dwarven city" without the mention of Dammerhall.

Again: I´m looking very much forward to your stuff Alice. Frick, I´m even getting a bit excited about this again. I mean......I´ve been really, really ecstatic about this when it started. Dwarven Expedition Adventure with old dwarven city in the underdark? YES PLEASE! And it´s coming back a bit ^^

Dark Archive Owner - Sugar & Dice

kevin_video wrote:

Hopefully Kevin, aka thatguy, doesn't mind, but I thought I'd share his blog post that he put on the KS comments page.

Thanks for the shout out! I'm new to blogging, but the situation with Fire Mountain Games has been on my mind for quite awhile. I'm happy to see the community working to fill the gap that Gary left behind. Keep me in mind if any new information pops up and I'll continue to follow the story.

Grand Lodge

A while back, I brought up that I had found a 2e module that involved a dwarf mine.

On my blog, I have converted most of the encounters, and suggested conversions for those that I didn't do. At the very least, most of the work is done for you.

The CR is low enough that it should be possible to do it as soon as Book 2 ends. For those players and GMs who wanted to end the game now, and not continue for another four books, this works as an optional ending to the campaign.


I have been Raging Against the Machine <bonus points for the reference> for the last few days, so I hope people have not been discouraged by the lack of updates.

Been getting 'video_dxgkrnl_fatal_error', blue screens, and almost continuous restarts of my Acer ever since I installed that blasted Window 10 about six or seven days ago.

The good news: I managed to find a computer repair tech to revert it to before the Windows 10 update.

The bad news: my WotW game on the forums died before the first real post because of my absence. :(

The semi-good news: Not having to prep and monitor my WotW game will likely give me more time to work on the PDFs.

So I'm a little butthurt and a tad bit salty logging back on to the messageboards but that shouldn't impact my little labor of love for you ladies and gentlemen.

Thanks for all the support you guys have shown me for working on this! It really means a lot to this gal that people are as interested in seeing my campaign material as you all are. <3

@LordHyperion
Oooooooooh, can I use that name Axing Evy?! I love it!

Grand Lodge

@Alice--Sorry to hear about your computer. I skipped the whole update thing because I knew my computer couldn't handle it. Seems that only the newest computers with it already installed seem to actually work properly with Win10. So weird.
Also sorry to hear about your game not working out. That sucks. Hopefully it'll make a come back in the upcoming months.


@Alice:

Computer: What kevin said! Windows 10 is the devil! Lol

As for the name, please do

Grand Lodge

I don't know if anyone has noticed this yet or not, but KS has just instituted a new feature that lets you follow creators, and not just friends/Facebook friends. I decided to follow Gary. That way I'm immediately notified when he backs something.


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The ETA on the 'Dwarven Kingdom' section is about another 4-5 days. The other adventures should release around every two to three weeks after that.

I'm not really great at layout and formatting PDFs, so don't expect high production values on any of those things. I hope you enjoy the content though!


Awesome!

Well I can only speak for myself but as far as I'm concerned as far as the layout goes I couldn't care less. I'll probably need to tinker with it anyway when I tailor it to my group. So no worries here.


Adobe is wanting to be finnicky adding maps. Would people be fine if those were added in an included folder?

Grand Lodge

Alice in Blunderland wrote:
Adobe is wanting to be finnicky adding maps. Would people be fine if those were added in an included folder?

Sure, that's fine.


Absolutely no problem


Any way I can get my hands on this goodness is fine. Thank you for doing this.


Should have it done either tomorrow or the day after, depending on my workload.

Grand Lodge

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So, wanted to bring up that thanks to this project falling to the wayside, and the monsters I ended up converting, one of my publishers ended up taking most of them, as well as a few other monsters I'd converted on the side, and created a mini-Bestiary. A few of you who have been here since the beginning with notice a few of the monsters that I shared on this thread and my blog.

Just want to say thanks to Gary for making it all possible. And to all you guys for letting me share my original monster conversion attempts.

Silver Crusade

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Huzzah! Congratz Kevin ^w^

Grand Lodge

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Rysky wrote:
Huzzah! Congratz Kevin ^w^

Thanks. I also did a collaboration with two other authors to do up my slaver class (renamed the ruthless oppressor to be more PC) that I designed years ago for the Way of the Wicked AP. Part of me finds it humorous that Gary's inadvertently responsible for both.


Alice in Blunderland wrote:
Adobe is wanting to be finnicky adding maps. Would people be fine if those were added in an included folder?

I agree with others above. Any way you get it out there is fine. Let us know where to find it when it's all said and done! I'll give it a read and try it out on my table (or at the very least, mine it for encounters to throw at my players).

Grand Lodge

Don't know if anyone has been by KS lately or not, but despite two projects completing that he supposedly backed, no one has signed onto Gary's account since Aug 15th. Don't know how to take that other than maybe the KS staff were able to do something in the end after all.

Other than that, just wondering how you're doing, Alice?

Grand Lodge

Just came from Mike's site, and as of August he no longer has FMG listed as an employer, and is once again a freelance artist. Can only imagine what that all entails. I'd like to believe that it means he finished all the art he was supposed to do, and nothing beyond that.


Well it possibly means that he´s leaving the burning, shattered corpse of what was once FMG´s reputation for greener pastures because he probably won´t get more work from there anytime soon (and I guess he just might have finished all the art for Throne of Nothingness..... oops...Night). I wish him luck, he certainly did a great job.

BTW.....anyone heard anything from Alice?

Grand Lodge

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Mike just updated his dA account, and the monster of the day (likely from Book 5) looks incredible. Probably my favourite so far.

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