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kevin_video wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
You're a better writer then Gary, you shouldn't dwell on this. :-)
I appreciate that.

Yeah man, don´t let that keep you from writing. Yer stuff is of fine quality so that´d really be a waste.


Oh come on people. Don´t tell me you really fall for the "I wonder if he has health problems" or "I wonder if he has real serious problems in the family" BS. Don´t sell yerself short like that.

I can tell you from personal experience that people with serious health issues or serious family problems DO NOT spend time scouring kickstarter for projects to back nor do they back 300+ projects in 3 years. They got other things on their mind, believe me.

No, the answer to the question why McBride has ripped us off is far easier to come by. I would write it down but paizo will only put the censorship pin on me again....


Well well well......what have we here? I´d never have thought I´d see this thread necro-ed ever.

I also never thought I´d at this moment in time meet people who still think/hope that come May Gary McFraud will rise from the ashes like the phoenix of old to deliver Part 3 of ToN. I´m not sure whether I should ridicule you for your naivete (no offense intended) or turn green with envy for the strength of your faith in all that is good. Lol. I guess I´ll go with the latter.....

Imo, yes, something will be released come April or so but not Part 3 but some halb-baked, stitched together piece of crap encompassing parts 3-6 (pdf only mark you) in a thinly veiled attempt to ward of possible law suits. Just my two cents and yes, I´d be happy for you guys if I were dead wrong.
Personally I don´t care as 1. I don´t do Pathfinder anymore (the now byzantine ruleset made me stop) and 2. even if I did I couldn´t touch ToN (or WotW) without the bile rising in me. Though I´ll admit if I did get what I payed for (ToN AND the WotW physical books) I might at least be able to sell them off and get some of my money back. Still.....I don´t really think that will happen.

That said I´d like to throw in with the thanks to Kevin who did his utmost best to keep this alive as long as possible. Great job dude.

As Rise of the Drow isn´t for me (going with Guang here) I can only hope someone might someday publish a great sandbox Underdark campaign. Again......not too likely I guess. I liked some of the Underworld stuff in Out of the Abyss but not the demon lords driven theme. Ah well......


Something like that I guess.....

Congrats in any case. The AP does sound interesting. Might get me the whole bunch. I wonder though....is there already any Guide for the Campaign world? Know anything? Their side seems to say so but I can´t find it anywhere...


kevin_video wrote:
davrion wrote:
Figured it was worth a shot, but I sent Gary a KS message on the 3rd to see if he'd be willing to at least send out the Way of the Wicked books 1-6 I added on as part of my pledge if I paid extra for the shipping on the Throne of Night books when they were ready. No response as of yet....
Definitely wish you luck on that.

And you´ll need all the luck you can get. In fact, should you get an answer at all I´d advise you to go straight onward and buy into some lottery. Chances are you´ll win.

As far as yer adventures go Derek, looking forward to them.


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I know damn well what will happen: nothing at all. Well that''s not entirely true: the 366th day of the silence treatment will come and go. That's gonna happen.


Zaister wrote:
Lord_Hyperion wrote:
LOL Guess one can´t argue over taste, eh?! Most people I know (myself included obviously) thought it horrible.
I'd be interested to know why you found the adventure horrible.

Sure, why not. Several reasons (and look, all of this is highly subjective, so if you think that „Rasputin must die“ ist he best thing since the invention oft he wheel…..good for you). Also mark you that my beef is mostly with this one adventure, not with the whole AP.

First (and not least) of all: for the same reason I would think that Lord of the Rings sucks right after Aragron, Legolas and Gimli have to fight through a battalion of Nazi Soldiers Sauron pulled in from the eastern front. Or why I would think that “Three Musketeers” sucks when Alexandre Dumas gets them saved from the Cardinals schemes by some Formorians Merlin sent over.
I´m just not a big fan (to say the least) of mixing fantasy up with modern stuff (if the whole system isn´t built on it. But if I wanted to play TORG or Weird Wars I probably would).

Other reasons I think it´s a bad adventure: because

* it has biiiiig plotholes
* it makes overmuch use of (badly done) plot devices (a.k.a. Deus Ex Machina NPC)
* it is unsound mechanically (crunch-wise)

Want me to list some examples (though it´s probably really a topic for another thread)?


LOL Guess one can´t argue over taste, eh?! Most people I know (myself included obviously) thought it horrible. But he! To everybody his/her own. I´ll pass though.....

@Cap: Yeah well.....faith is hard to come by in this particular thread ^^


Actually I was pretty excited for Strange Aeons too.....which ended pretty fast when I read about the whole "the players visit a dark Paris stuff". I mean come on, didn´t you learn anything from the Reign of Winter/Russia fiasco Paizo??? Why do you need to insert real world stuff into a fantasy RPG?? There´s so many fantasy places to use, why go there again?


Sooooo.......Alice is pulling a "McBride" on us, eh?! LOL. This s*&* of an AP must be cursed somehow.....^^


Even IF he got all 139 projects from enail or FB - which I doubt (I also do get a lot from these sources but not everything that interests me and I am rather sure thats how it is for practically everybody) - it doesn't really matter. He was on kickstarter, could have easily wrote a update. Didn't think it worth his time to update his financiers even after 11 fricking months (backed his 139th project tonight)..

But whatever.

@Michael: I understand that. Sorry for getting a bit heated, I did in no way intend to attack you personally. I just think that all things considered we are at a point in time where "thats his own business" regarding anything that connects with this project is long behind us.
But if its the case that the money was used in full to pay you I at least do think it was spent well enough.


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SpiralMagus wrote:
Honestly, I don't feel it's my business how he chooses to spend his personal money, and I think there is a separation between personal and professional activities to keep in mind here. I can see how it can be viewed badly though, in light of Throne of Night's delays.

Yeah well, forgive me if concerns about being fair against Gary McBride doesn't exactly make my TOP100 of priorities right now. Even IF this would be 100% true (and there stands to rason that the money we all payed him for working on ToN payed for at least some of those pledges AND that reading/playing 137 books/games (most not for pathfinder) does NOT speed things up reagarding ToN) backing 137 kickstarters DOES mean that he was online on kickstarter 137 times and could have given an update. He got time enough to scour kickstater for new stuff to buy but not to give us a 5 sentence update? Sorry, but wih all due respect, saying that this is all personal and and not anyones business is too easy Michael.


Thanks Michael. Your art is stunning and you did your job. AND you found it in your heart to keep us updated as best you could which I for one appreciate (and in fact without your art I guess the measly 43 "updates" in 3 1/2 fricking years would be cut in half really).

All the best to you!


Well it possibly means that he´s leaving the burning, shattered corpse of what was once FMG´s reputation for greener pastures because he probably won´t get more work from there anytime soon (and I guess he just might have finished all the art for Throne of Nothingness..... oops...Night). I wish him luck, he certainly did a great job.

BTW.....anyone heard anything from Alice?


Absolutely no problem


Awesome!

Well I can only speak for myself but as far as I'm concerned as far as the layout goes I couldn't care less. I'll probably need to tinker with it anyway when I tailor it to my group. So no worries here.


@Alice:

Computer: What kevin said! Windows 10 is the devil! Lol

As for the name, please do


Itchy wrote:

Alice: If you are looking to continue the story, I strongly recommend listening to the Know Direction Paizocon 2016 Pathfinder Compatible Publishers Workshop podcast. Looks like it's PaizoCon2016 number 040.

Here's what (I recall) you can do: Anything you write as a follow up to what is currently published will need all new NPC's. For instance, if you want Knivy Ivy to continue as an NPC, she cannot without Gary's Permission. However, you can introduce a new, eerily similar NPC for the players to meet. Also, you won't be able to reference any proper nouns from Throne of Night. You won't be able to use any art from Throne of Night.

I'm not trying to discourage you, I'd love to see your work. But I don't want to see you get in trouble either.

Good point! Nobody would want Alice to get into trouble.

Though I guess it´s easily done (if time-consuming). I mean I guess most of us will be able to make jump to Axing Evy, a new NPC that arrives only moments after Knivy Ivy died a sad and painful death. Also most might know what to make of "the dwarven city" without the mention of Dammerhall.

Again: I´m looking very much forward to your stuff Alice. Frick, I´m even getting a bit excited about this again. I mean......I´ve been really, really ecstatic about this when it started. Dwarven Expedition Adventure with old dwarven city in the underdark? YES PLEASE! And it´s coming back a bit ^^


Well I'll say that you should do whatever necessary to make you (feel) safe. Take all the time you need (we ARE kinda good at waiting around here ^^). Thank you for all the efforts you take. Looking absolutely forward to seeing your material/campaign. With that and the stuff from kevin_video I hope to be able to finally get something salvaged from this trainwreck. Thumbs up!!


Kryzbyn wrote:

Sorry you guys are having problems still, I feel for you.

Mekton Zero was supposed to be out March 2014.

I'm sorry for that but with ToN it's not really the delay all that much (at least for me). While I would want to finally get my stuff I'd be ok wih more waiting time if I WOULD F*##ING KNOW WHAT THE F*#@ IS GOING ON and not be treated like a piece if s~!! by a man I gave a lot of money to so he could work on something of a pet project. THAT is what irks me and why I'm so fed up with this "project". With Mekong you're getting regular updates at least.

Apart from that: wrote to kickstarter, got the same lousy copy&paste answer everybody else did.

Would appreciate material from you Alice. Thank you for offering it. And yes, sounds great.

Also once again thanks to you Derek for keeping this afloat.


Done as requested and got the same copy&paste email as everybody else. Go figure.


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kevin_video wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Banesfinger wrote:
This method could also be effective underground if you rule that darkvision can't read ink from a page.
Wut?
Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat here. I never got to experience Dark Sun back in the day. My DM was all for Ravenloft back in the days of 2e so I'm a bit lost on darkvision not being able to see ink.

I guess this was more of a 2E thing cause if you remember back in the olden days "darkvison" was more like you did "see" heat signatures and thus then it was ruled that in the underdark one could not "read" normal ink as the heat signature of the ink and the book would not be any different from each other.

With modern darkvision there should not be any problem at all regarding this. You can read just fine.


Quite true probably. There ARE human cultures that use rars for eating and while certainly no drow worth the name would eat goblins I guess they'd kill a lot of em so the idea they'd use their skin for vellum has its merits.


YAY! Art! This s~~% is gonna end up as a coffee table book in the end *lol*


kevin_video wrote:


Being underground, and not being surrounded by trees, I have to wonder how rare paper is. Especially spell book and scroll paper. I guess you could argue that the plant life in the mushroom forest has a consistency not unlike the papyrus plant, and make the kind of paper that ancient Egyptians had,

Quite true. Also remember that there was "vellum" long before there was paper. Vellum being a specially treated very thin animal skin (the word stems from the latin "vitulinum" means "made from calves"). Drow should have access to animals easily, so they could use vellum.


kevin_video wrote:
I've been in contact with KS. I had talked to them last year about what was happening, and they said to contact them if the project was still behind. So I did. They're trying to contact Gary about opening communication with us. I'll be interested to see if they can pull it off. Guess we'll find out in a couple of weeks.

I appreciate the effort!! Way to go dude!

BUT: he won´t answer their mails any more than he answers ours.

On another note........didn´t you plan to write an adventure yerself? How´s that coming along?


kevin_video wrote:


If he suddenly lets someone take over, or even help, I'll be surprised. Relieved, but surprised, and maybe even a little hurt unless the someone has a highly reputable name.

Well to be fair: Nick Logue took quite some time to accept that he was in over his head and turn the stuff over to FGG. So there´s still a shred of hope....probably....somewhere.

kevin_video wrote:
It's been my understanding that he's got enough headway that he didn't need any assistance.

Uh-hm. Sure. And the moon is made of green cheese. ^^. No offense.

kevin_video wrote:
However, this was months ago. Wish I could say I know otherwise now, but everyone involved has unfortunately gone silent on the subject.

BIIIIIIIG superise! lol.


Guang wrote:

Seems like history really does repeat itself.

Hopefully ToN has a similar ending to its story - i.e. fully printed and popular.

Yeah well.........if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride, eh?!

Wicht wrote:
The moral of which is, things can change. What seems a catastrophe now might get resolved down the road a bit.

It might be - if McBride follows Nick Logue´s footsteps in resolving the thing - by selling it off to a company that can deliver and offering refunds to those who want them. Which I doubt. But let´s see.

Also, while no excuse for the period of silence on Nick Logues part - Razor Coast was arguably WRITTEN AND DONE that whole period missing "just" layout and art. So it was possible to bring it to life rather easily after the Frog Gods took over. I don´t think ToN is written or done (and personally doubt it ever will be if left in the hands of McBride alone).


Yeah! Old scotish proverb: "Fool me once - shame on you! Fool me twice - shame on me!"


No? Oh! Thanks for telling me.

And here I thought because I´ve been sitting here for 3 f%#&ing years without even getting the Way of the Wicked physical books I have payed for (what´s up? His alleged "Writer´s block" encompassing writing my address on a label?) OR getting the refund I have asked for a bazillion times meant I´d need to.

But ok....I´ll try to turn the sarcasm mode off. And I apologize to you, Banesfinger.


You gotta be kidding me! LOL.

We don´t even get any updates. Don´t you think if he were through with the books or even nearing the end he´d have been posting about it? Or do you seriously think that you´ll just wake up some morning to find a parcel on your doorstep left by the gnomes with all the shiny stuff from Gary "I can´t talk or write" McBride?

Gimme a break!


The Sword wrote:

I have previously been on of Gary's most strident supporters... Even I am struggling at this point not to write the project off.

However, my growing suspicion is that gary has lost all enthusiasm and motivation for the project. As a result all his creative juices have dried up and he is suffering from the mother of all writers block. Faced with the choice of producing nothing or something naff he has chosen nothing. I would imagine explaining this would get little sympathy so he hasn't. After all "I don't feel like it" isn't a very good reason for something not being completed.

However, this is a real phenomena. Ask George R Martin!

Seriously? I doubt it! Come on......no writer known to mankind, living or dead, has ever had 2 fricking YEARS of "writer´s block". All of us who do their own adventures from time to time know that you can get stuck, badly too from time to time. But if you just let it go for some days or weeks and just give it some thought then something always comes up. Always.

Besides.....it´s not like he´s trying to write a fricking nobel prize novel here. It´s just a lousy adventure path for god´s sake. One which - if WotW is any reference - would have needed some shining by the GM anyway. Don´t get me wrong: WofW is good but it´s hardly perfect.

Also.....as much as Georgie Porgie DOES suck at finishing his stuff at least he´s writing 800-pages books not 96 pages adventures where some 10 pages or so are art (if one adds it up) to boot. So one book from Georgie is bigger than ALL the adventures McBride promised. And I seriously doubt that the ToN story would have been as complex and intertwined as ASoIaF.

This won´t be a George R.R. Martin. This will become a Robert Jordan.


My prediction: you are wise not to add a year to your June prediction. Cause it sure as hell won´t be 2016.


@The Sword: Well as you already says everyone is entiteled to their opinion. But some (more) empty promises and a(nother) piece of art is not "an update" to me.

I already knew that the artist does his job and I already know that the project is waaaaaaaay behind. So what exactly am I updated about?

"An update" for me would be if I was finally told exactly where the project stands and some educated guess when it will be finished (or even when interim targets will be reached). There is no need to whitewash this time either.

I´m absolutely with Steve here. I (and many many others) have given this man a lot of money. Even the money I personally have given him (over 300$) is a lot of money. At least it´s for me. Don´t know about you, maybe you are rich and don´t care. I need to work hard for my money. So what gives this man the right to treat me and all his other financiers (yeah.....we are his financiers and gave him money so he needs not pay interest to the bank) with disrespect, contempt and scorn?

And even if the "product will speak for itself" (imo it will probably say "Welcome to 2022, too bad for you that Pathfinder (in it´s current form) doesn´t exist anymore) why is that an excuse for the complete disregard this......person.....shows people who reached out and gave him their hard earned cash in good faith.

Give him more of your money if you like; if enough others do too he´ll just treat you like s**t again cause he´ll reckon that it´s ok to do so. I´ll never ever shoot him another dime meself.

And please do not compare this to Razor Coast. Yes, Razor Coast was very much delayed also and that was s~++ty. But at least Logue had the guts, the decency and the manners to come clear with his funders. McBride has neither.


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Well there´s something I really need to say: while in the meantime I really and absolutely resent my involvement with this whole project (not because I need to wait on product but because I don´t like being treated like s*#% by someone I threw hard-earned cash at) I would like to thank Kevin_video form the bottom of my heart, for spreading news, giving advice and bringing to our attention stuff we might need to better the campaign. Way to go dude! Way to go!


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Well I for one have written thit whole s!!# of as vaporware half a year ago. And I don´t buy into all the excuses made here for the benefit of Mr. McBride.

Let´s see about some of the usual ones:

1. "The guy probably has really, really, really bad/serious/important personal issues"

Hmhm......they are SO serious the he has ample time to rummage through kickstarter every other day and back projects to his hearts desire but can´t shoot his backers an update once a month.

2. "The guy has a writer´s block"

For real. And the baddest case of it I ever heard of! Cause apparently this mysterious writer´s block of Mr. McBride encompasses writing my adress on a package to send me the (already written) WotW books I payed for two f&+~ing years ago.

3. "I will take quality over quantity every day"

Sorry people but chucking out two measly books in 3 years has nothing - that´s with a capital N mark you - to do with quality over quantity.

4. "Give him some room he´s a nice guy"

He´s what? A nice guy? Totes. He´s so nice a guy that he not only give´s a rat´s ass about the worries, the feelings and the wishes of the people who threw him quite a bit of their hard earned money but that he left his artist pal out to the wolves for the last two years. Yeah, he´s a prince.

And before anyone comes up to me with that whole BS of "that´s not how kickstarter works", sorry people, kickstarter doesn´t forbid you to have personal honor and integrity and keep the people that believed in you, cared for your personal pet project and helped you out with funds in the loops.
Many, many others - companies and private citizens - who´s kickstarters are delayed prove this every single day.

But all is not lost (yet):

Roleplaying gamers are a small, dedicated bunch and I´ve seen them reach out time and again when someone came clear with personal issues or problems for delays of product or anything else. The people that have been honest with their customers and fans have been given comfort, advice, support, assistance and money with nothing asked in return. We take care of our own.

But that doesn´t mean that I need to stand for being cheated, ignored, lied to on a regular basis and all together being treated like s#%+.

Once again (even though I am certain to no avail) I urge Mr. McBride to come into the open. All of the people that supported you deserve an open, honest, sincere assessment of where we stand and when they´ll get their product (if ever). Come clear, win back your personal honor and be assured that we´ll take care of our own.


No one should be concerned till April 1st 2014? Get real.
The guy has not put out even the second book of six by now (after 9 whole months), measly three month away from that date.

How will he put out 5 books in 3 months? I´ll tell you how: no way!!

This thing is vaporware imo. And if not that then it´ll be Far West the second coming. With this pace (1 book = 9+ months) you´ll be playing the campaign 2018 at the earliest.

As far as I´m concerned FMG is dead as a business. I´ll back no more kickstarter and I´ll buy no more product from them. And that´s what you should do too if you are as disappointed by their behaviour as I am.

Maybe kickstarter is a gamble with no obligations for the creator of the campaign as some want to tell us (and it has been correctly stated that it is not) but even then I as a customer do not accept being treated like s$$$ (completely left in the dark, no cummunication, no anwer to emails) as I am by FMG. But that´s something everyone has to decide for him-/herself.

BTW: The guy has time and money enough to back himself into more than a few kickstarter campaigns these last weeks but not 5 minutes to treat his financiers (yeah we are his damn bank only we do not get interest) a few lines of update? I can see why so many think him a great guy.....