[Fire Mountain Games] Throne of Night


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Grand Lodge

Still nothing yet, but I thought I'd send a few more adventures your way.

If you're not adverse to doing some conversions, and have access to the Dungeon Magazines, head to this site, and type in "underdark", "underground", and "dwar" for a few more adventures. One in particular has derro taking on a dwarven mine and railroad. Unfortunately, there's a couple missing from the list, and I don't know why.
They are:
Issue 16 "THE DWARVES OF WARKA"
Issue 46 "THE IRON ORB OF THE DUERGAR"
Issue 64 "GROTTO OF THE QUEEN",
Issue 66 "SWING SHOT!" and "AVENGING MURIK".
The descriptions of those adventures can be found here using Ctrl+F.

Finally, this site has a "Well written adventure for a 6-8 PC all-Dwarf party." called Disaster Within. There's a few others with "dwarf" in the description as well.

As usual, I'm not sure how much this would be of benefit to those currently running the AP.

Grand Lodge

As I said on the kickstarter, I feel like a fan of George RR Martin waiting for the next installment.

Also bored. Wondering if it's worth doing what I did for Way of the Wicked and do a "Changes I would make" blog section on my Tumblr. Guess it'd mostly just be what I've already put on here with a few additions.

Grand Lodge

I'm going to place this here and on the Kickstarter page, but this harbors back to what KenderKin said: "you just need to write your own AP for us!"

Just for you guys, I've re-opened my LiveJournal after two years of nothing, just so I could access a polling station. There's a few questions on there, but the main one is whether or not anyone shares KenderKin's feelings about my writing an AP. Essentially, would you support such a thing?


I would possibly support such a thing, based on the nature of the adventure, the people (and experience level) involved, and various other factors. I don't back adventures just because they're adventures - I back campaigns I actually want to run. XD


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kevin_video wrote:

I'm going to place this here and on the Kickstarter page, but this harbors back to what KenderKin said: "you just need to write your own AP for us!"

Just for you guys, I've re-opened my LiveJournal after two years of nothing, just so I could access a polling station. There's a few questions on there, but the main one is whether or not anyone shares KenderKin's feelings about my writing an AP. Essentially, would you support such a thing?

It wants me to create a LiveJournal account, and I have too many one off accounts now, so I'll just post my answers here.

Q1. If I wrote an Adventure Path, would you legitimately support it?
A1. Yes, depending on the character level for the AP

Q2, If I did this, what level would you want it to go up to?
A2. 1-20 (I would consider 1-15, or 10-20, but would really have to think about that.)

Q3. Is having it supported with Hero Lab files a deal maker?
A4. No. I do not use Hero Lab so I would not want to pay for it. If you Kickstarter the project, make it an add on.

Q4. Some APs, like Castle Whiterock, have pregens. Would you want these added?
A4. No. I would not want to pay for it. If you Kickstarter the project, make it an add on.

-- david

Grand Lodge

@GM Rednal - That's cool. I'm figuring that no one's interested in buying a cookie cutter type adventure. I have a few ideas as to what I'd write. Being a gamer for 20 years, I'm hoping I've come to know what players want to join in on, but I could just be biased because my own players enjoyed them.
After enough support was shown, I'd give hints as to what it'd be about to see if anyone would still be inclined to run it. The one I've always wanted to publish, and I'd like to think my players enjoyed the most, was a homebrew that drew back to the days of AD&D which involved gods and monsters vs. mortal players.

@DM Papa.DRB - That's so weird that LJ is doing that. Very sorry about that. I guess it's changed over the past two years since I left it. I set it all anonymous and everything. I'm hoping anyone who wants to comment on there can still do so. So maybe if the polls don't work, the questions can be answered in the comments section? So far I've gotten two people to vote, but they could have accounts too. I'm curious now.
While I like Kickstarter, Purple Duck Games doesn't believe in it. Only Patreon. Mark says that if you want to get paid, you put in the work first. He doesn't like the idea of getting all the money at once, and there being nothing to show for it for a long time afterwards, if ever. Also, I know you guys don't trust me near enough to give me even half of the money Gary was given for ToN. What trust I do have, I'd never want to betray.


I've backed a lot of projects on KS, and ToN was the only one that ever burned me. Granted, there were a couple that I was disappointed with, but they all delivered.
After ToN, I wouldn't back anything on KS that wasn't close to finished, or from a publisher I know to be solid (Kobold Press, Larian Studios, Reaper, etc.)

Grand Lodge

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94 backed projects, only 2 have burned me so far. (Some are quite behind, but still progressing.)

Grand Lodge

Firstbourne wrote:

I've backed a lot of projects on KS, and ToN was the only one that ever burned me. Granted, there were a couple that I was disappointed with, but they all delivered.

After ToN, I wouldn't back anything on KS that wasn't close to finished, or from a publisher I know to be solid (Kobold Press, Larian Studios, Reaper, etc.)

I kind of feel bad about this. But I stopped using KS not long after ToN. I'm sure there are lots of great products needing made, but I can't afford to lose the money.


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84 backed projects, only ToN and one other have "burned" me so far. As TriOmegaZero said, the others are behind, but moving). I hold out hope that ToN will finish. The other was only a $5 or $10 pledge, so I decided to NOT buy coffee one week to make up the loss. :)

I tend to back safe Kickstarters (Reaper Miniatures, Frog God Games, Cheapass Games, CoolMiniOrNot), so I have had a good experience with it.

If you decide to Kickstart a project, Kevin, I promise you that I will look it over and make a decision based on whether I would want to run the adventure. To copy Papa DRB:

Q1. If I wrote an Adventure Path, would you legitimately support it?
A1. Yes, if it looks like something I would want to run.

Q2, If I did this, what level would you want it to go up to?
A2. 1-20 would be nice, but I've got enough material to fill in the higher levels if it doesn't go that high.

Q3. Is having it supported with Hero Lab files a deal maker?
A4. No. I DO use Hero Lab and it would be nice to have the files, but I can make most of them. Supported with Realm Works MIGHT be a deal maker if it's something I want to run. However, that's probably a lot more work for you.

Q4. Some APs, like Castle Whiterock, have pregens. Would you want these added?
A4. I don't care either way. I have only ever used ONE pregen and that was because I had a visitor gaming with us. I gave them a choice of pregens to play that one night in order to save character creation time.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

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Also to copy Papa DRB:

Q1. If I wrote an Adventure Path, would you legitimately support it?
A1. Yes, if it looks like something I would want to run. However, my group has now moved to D&D 5e, so it would need to support that system (duel stated?).

Q2, If I did this, what level would you want it to go up to?
A2. 1-15, but any range would be nice.

Q3. Is having it supported with Hero Lab files a deal maker?
A4. No. I don't use H.L., but "downloadable" media (e.g. maps in .pdf) will always find a use at our table.

Q4. Some APs, like Castle Whiterock, have pregens. Would you want these added?
A4. I don't care either way. We only use pre-gens for short, one-shot adventures.


kevin_video wrote:

I'm going to place this here and on the Kickstarter page, but this harbors back to what KenderKin said: "you just need to write your own AP for us!"

Just for you guys, I've re-opened my LiveJournal after two years of nothing, just so I could access a polling station. There's a few questions on there, but the main one is whether or not anyone shares KenderKin's feelings about my writing an AP. Essentially, would you support such a thing?

I encourage you to do so. Fixing cracked mortar is fine every now and then, but being your own mason!!!


So, does anyone know why FMG ran into so much trouble getting Throne of Night out? As far as I know, Way of the Wicked was a fantastic success for a third party publisher.

Dark Archive

Starfinder Superscriber
Bard-Sader wrote:
So, does anyone know why FMG ran into so much trouble getting Throne of Night out? As far as I know, Way of the Wicked was a fantastic success for a third party publisher.

Lack of communication from FMG is a major problem. We have heard little from Gary for awhile now.


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The history here is part of the reason I now suggest to companies heading in to Kickstarter for the first time that they commit to making an update for their community every two weeks no matter what. Even if it's just "hey, we're still on track", my experience has been that companies who communicate regularly have FAR more patient and understanding backers when something inevitably hiccups during the process. XD And I think it's a lot easier to keep going when people are being supportive instead of doubtful.


So KV what are the ideas for your AP?

I mean at least the sales pitch summary versions.....

Grand Lodge

KenderKin wrote:

So KV what are the ideas for your AP?

I mean at least the sales pitch summary versions.....

I'll IM you once I'm back to my computer so that I'm not derailing the thread.

Anyone interested can contact me, and I'll forward it.


How has the quality of the first two books of Throne of Night been? Up to the quality of Way of the Wicked?


Bard-Sader wrote:
How has the quality of the first two books of Throne of Night been? Up to the quality of Way of the Wicked?

Having run WotW to completetion, I can say: Yes - the first two books are solid. I was SO looking forward to running this.

Grand Lodge

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Bard-Sader wrote:
How has the quality of the first two books of Throne of Night been? Up to the quality of Way of the Wicked?

I'd say yes. That said, like WotW it had just as many editing issues and errors. They both could have used a second set of eyes before release.

Community & Digital Content Director

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Removed a series of posts. Folks, it's really not appropriate to speculate, or joke about the personal lives of community members or third-party publishers on our forums. It only perpetuates drama that we don't need here.

Grand Lodge

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I want to thank those who've contacted me via IM to discuss a possible AP, and given opinions on the list I came up with on the ideas I had come up with. Once I'm done writing the 3-part module I was commissioned to do for the local Pathfinder tournament, I'll start writing a proper pitch. See where it goes. In the meantime I'm going to put my feelers out and get in contact with a few other writers that I've become acquainted with over the last couple of years and get their insight.

In the meantime, hopefully Throne of Night sees Book 3 before Spring.

Other than that, I get the feeling that this thread is unofficially closed.


kevin_video wrote:
That said, like WotW it had just as many editing issues and errors. They both could have used a second set of eyes before release.

I was the second set of eyes for the last three volumes of WotW. However, not all my suggestions were accepted (though some were).

One problem was that I got drafts as .pdfs, not as Word documents -- so I couldn't do comments or track changes; I had to do all edits as a separate Word document ("Page 18, line 7, form/from again").

Doug M.


There should be programs where you can write on top of pdfs

here is an online client that apparently works

https://www.pdfbuddy.com/

Grand Lodge

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
kevin_video wrote:
That said, like WotW it had just as many editing issues and errors. They both could have used a second set of eyes before release.

I was the second set of eyes for the last three volumes of WotW. However, not all my suggestions were accepted (though some were).

One problem was that I got drafts as .pdfs, not as Word documents -- so I couldn't do comments or track changes; I had to do all edits as a separate Word document ("Page 18, line 7, form/from again").

Doug M.

I did the same thing when the books came out. I'd email him the changes and he'd reply back thanking me for looking things over and sending proofs. That said, I often wondered if wrote everything using Wordpad instead of Word because a simple Spellcheck would have fixed a lot of errors.

Grand Lodge

So one of my players got his subscription book last week, and since we've been playing Way of the Wicked for three consecutive weeks, I got to flip through them quickly. The books he got was the module, Down the Blighted Path, the Campaign Setting Darklands Revisited, and the Player Companion Blood of Shadows.

Going through them all I have to say that if you upped the CR of the encounters, you could easily use Down the Blighted Path (normally for level 7 PCs) as a starting replacement for Book 3. It all takes place in the dwarf town, and dark fey are manipulating the fallen to become undead followers. There's even an intelligent dwarven artifact weapon that can be found at the end that will need a homebrew side quest to unlock its full potential. I'd rather not say why. Bit of a spoiler.
Darklands Revisited expands on a couple of the Pathfinder races, and expands on some of the underground monsters. I really like the expansion on the half-drow and their new alternate racial trait. Makes them even more drow-like. Urdefhans have an alternate daemonic half-fiend template which could be interesting for encounters, and gugs have variants that increase their CR.
Blood of Shadows has new archetypes, feats, rogue talents, and alternate racial traits for drow, half-elves, fetchlings, and even wayangs. Some new racial spells and class options are in there too. The shadow bloodline for sorcerers and bloodragers, as well as an oracle mystery, cleric subdomain, warpriest blessing, new eidolon feature, and psychic discipline, could make for an interesting PC build, or even for NPC encounters, not to mention all the new magic items available. The Underdark has so much potential. Needless to say that you're not limited with the "shadow" aspect in the book. I'd have liked a little more variety, but take what you can get right?

Needless to say that there's lots to work with to do your own game. If Gary ever gives us our other books, maybe something from these books will be seen.

Grand Lodge

Even I have to admit that I'm losing faith. I looked it up. It was Oct 2014 that David first did his own summary of how books 3 through 6 should go. It was around that same time that I discussed various monster adds, and adventure substitutions. That means for a year and a half, I've supplemented the AP and gave it tons of filler. At least David (Weslocke) summed everything up and left it to the GMs on how to finish things. I just padded things and gave false hopes. I guess I could look at it as adventures that you could re-arrange and manipulate for your own purposes instead of just side quests, and use one of them as the "ender".


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kevin_video wrote:
Even I have to admit that I'm losing faith. I looked it up. It was Oct 2014 that David first did his own summary of how books 3 through 6 should go. It was around that same time that I discussed various monster adds, and adventure substitutions. That means for a year and a half, I've supplemented the AP and gave it tons of filler. At least David (Weslocke) summed everything up and left it to the GMs on how to finish things. I just padded things and gave false hopes.

Gary's lack of candor and good faith does not invalidate all the hard work you have put into helping those of us stuck in the middle of a (now dead?) adventure path. Your work - and the work of the artist Mike Clarke - is greatly appreciated.

You have ZERO blame here. It's all on Mr. McBride.

Grand Lodge

Unimportant wrote:

Gary's lack of candor and good faith does not invalidate all the hard work you have put into helping those of us stuck in the middle of a (now dead?) adventure path. Your work - and the work of the artist Mike Clarke - is greatly appreciated.

You have ZERO blame here. It's all on Mr. McBride.

I just feel really bad for everyone who's had to drop the AP. I've been keeping in contact with a few of them trying to help it continue, because they've been looking to do so, but now it's just gotten to the point where they're either dropping it altogether or they're setting it aside for a full month for the supposed possible April release date that Gary hinted at last year.

I'd love to do more, but I've run out of padding. It's only because of the new stuff that I can still remotely say "try this".


Eh, pity. I backed the project only on the level where you got the first module for free, and I found it pretty promising. Ah well, at least Zeitgeist still seeems to be going...

Q1. If I wrote an Adventure Path, would you legitimately support it?
A1. Depends on the theme and the pricing, but if both are okay and I think it will be quality, sure.

Q2, If I did this, what level would you want it to go up to?
A2. 1-10+. I would not mind having it start a few levels later, actually, i.e. 3-15

Q3. Is having it supported with Hero Lab files a deal maker?
A3. No, I do not use it.

Q4. Some APs, like Castle Whiterock, have pregens. Would you want these added?
A4. I don´t care much.


Good day to all my fellow GMs that seem every bit as frustrated (or more) as I have gotten with the lack of feedback and product releases from Fire Mountain Games. I'd like to start by saying I jumped on the band wagon fairly late. I ran across Way of the Wicked a little over two years ago. I was astounded by an actual evil adventure path. Having re-designed many standard adventures to fit various groups wanting to taste evil, it was quite a relief to have one put together so beautifully. My group enjoyed the Hell out of it. Pun intended. However, having run many adventures like this before, I bought and read all of them before running the first session. I'm so glad I waited the same way for Throne of Night. I can't imagine what some of you have been through having to set the adventure path aside while you wait for what appears to be years until the next book comes out. Does anyone know when the third book (or all of them) will be released?


Soon™.

(But no, seriously, I think the most common hope is that they'll be released at all. Without any communication from the person making them, well...)

Grand Lodge

Nezzarine Shadowmantle wrote:
Does anyone know when the third book (or all of them) will be released?

It's all guess work right now. The implied answer is he's writing all four books at the same time, and we should expect to hear/see something come April sometime. Whether or not that's legit, no one know. Even Mr Clarke isn't responding to messages, which I don't blame him.

Grand Lodge

The Shaman wrote:

Eh, pity. I backed the project only on the level where you got the first module for free, and I found it pretty promising. Ah well, at least Zeitgeist still seeems to be going...

Q1. If I wrote an Adventure Path, would you legitimately support it?
A1. Depends on the theme and the pricing, but if both are okay and I think it will be quality, sure.

Q2, If I did this, what level would you want it to go up to?
A2. 1-10+. I would not mind having it start a few levels later, actually, i.e. 3-15

Q3. Is having it supported with Hero Lab files a deal maker?
A3. No, I do not use it.

Q4. Some APs, like Castle Whiterock, have pregens. Would you want these added?
A4. I don´t care much.

Thanks for answering. For anyone interested, I've taken what previous people have said to heart and asked a select group of people to vote on 11 ideas that I presented to them. This was suggested by my publisher. Depending on how the vote goes I'll either write one of the Top 3 choices, or I'll present them with a new set of ideas should all of the previous ones fall flat. No date as to when I'd start it as I still have to hash out the details. So far it's looking like people enjoy the idea of it being fairly world neutral, in possibly an urban setting or an uncharted island, and would start at either 1st or 3rd level and likely end around 10-13th level. Again, no specifics because a half dozen voters.

Also, not defending Gary, but...:
if this happened at all to him over the last two years, I can at least sympathize to a point and cut him a bit of slack. Last week my family got dealt a major blow after we were informed with a very sudden and tragic death to our immediate family. With everything that's currently going on, and the less than subtle spats happening on both sides regarding estate and whatnot, plus having to deal with all of the final details, not to mention just the depressing aspect of it all, I have not only not written anything in the past week (I've got a playtest to do on Saturday that I'm only completed in short hand), but after everything was finally done the stress of the whole situation managed to cause me to get so sick that I was bedridden for two days following the funeral. My phone has kept me in the loop on things online. I'm only now feeling human and I've only got tomorrow to work on the project that I've been given. It'll be 100% done by the May due date, but still. Unlike Gary, my time doesn't have an estimated date so it has to be done. And I unfortunately am doing it for free.


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The difference is, you just shared info that we didn't even ask for. Gary has been completely silent on what is causing the delay.
My life has been a ball of depression and anxiety for the last year, but I still go to work.

Dark Archive

My condolences Kevin


Firstbourne wrote:

The difference is, you just shared info that we didn't even ask for. Gary has been completely silent on what is causing the delay.

My life has been a ball of depression and anxiety for the last year, but I still go to work.

In addition regardless of whats gone on, its been what? 2-3 years of people twisting in the wind... Gary should step forward with information as to why/ whats gone on, on ANY level of specifics.


I can see no logic or benefit to what Gary is doing.


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Axial wrote:
I can see no logic or benefit to what Gary is doing.

I wonder if the thinking is something along the lines of:

"If I talk about it, I'll have to engage with angry backers, that will drain my energy and I'll be less effective at getting the product into backers' hands. Therefore, the best strategy is for me to focus on getting it done and overcoming these problems that have arisen. Once people have got the books, it will all be forgotten soon enough."

I could imagine someone justifying their behaviour like that - those sorts of rationalisations don't really have to stand up to much scrutiny (since they're generally private and only get examined by a sympathetic audience) it just needs to be enough cover to convince yourself that what you're doing is okay.

The length of the delay undercuts the argument though. If he'd silently just got it done six months late, I suspect such an analysis would be correct. As it is now, it's gone on so long it's going to be hard to rekindle the enthusiasm should the books ever be delivered.

Irrational or not, I don't expect to be able to read these books without remembering the disdainful treatment I received during their production. That's not something conducive to enjoyment, so I suspect they'll never even be read (presuming the miraculous occurs and they actually turn up).


I have previously been on of Gary's most strident supporters... Even I am struggling at this point not to write the project off.

However, my growing suspicion is that gary has lost all enthusiasm and motivation for the project. As a result all his creative juices have dried up and he is suffering from the mother of all writers block. Faced with the choice of producing nothing or something naff he has chosen nothing. I would imagine explaining this would get little sympathy so he hasn't. After all "I don't feel like it" isn't a very good reason for something not being completed.

However, this is a real phenomena. Ask George R Martin!


Explanations, guesses, what may have happened - thats all fine, but...
Where did the $40,600 go?

Did we finance a vacation? Was it meant to be production costs or was it meant to be finances so that Gary could quit his day job and get the project done?
I know one thing for sure it was used for, and that's Gary backing a ton of other KickStarter projects.
No excuses.

Grand Lodge

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brad2411 wrote:
My condolences Kevin

Thanks. It's been a hard couple of weeks.

Steve Geddes wrote:

I wonder if the thinking is something along the lines of:

"If I talk about it, I'll have to engage with angry backers, that will drain my energy and I'll be less effective at getting the product into backers' hands. Therefore, the best strategy is for me to focus on getting it done and overcoming these problems that have arisen. Once people have got the books, it will all be forgotten soon enough."

I could imagine someone justifying their behaviour like that - those sorts of rationalisations don't really have to stand up to much scrutiny (since they're generally private and only get examined by a sympathetic audience) it just needs to be enough cover to convince yourself that what you're doing is okay.

The length of the delay undercuts the argument though. If he'd silently just got it done six months late, I suspect such an analysis would be correct. As it is now, it's gone on so long it's going to be hard to rekindle the enthusiasm should the books ever be delivered.

Irrational or not, I don't expect to be able to read these books without remembering the disdainful treatment I received during their production. That's not something conducive to enjoyment, so I suspect they'll never even be read (presuming the miraculous occurs and they actually turn up).

Yeah, there's definitely the thought of people immediately going off on him. It's difficult to get into the 'the zone' when it comes to writing. You really need that 'bug' to start biting you. It's worse once you realize that your hobby has become your job. That said, people would likely be less upset if he gave us more than just a zip file of art. Not that the art is bad, it's just not what people are looking for. They'll see the art once the books are released. It's like releasing too many movie trailers. Eventually the movie will be spoiled for you, and there's nothing left to excite you.

Last year I offered my services to him. For free. Whether it was character builds or editing. I got turned down because he apparently already had what he needed. I was thanked for the gesture at least. Since then we haven't gotten an update.

I'm in the same boat where I'm not sure I'll read the books after all this time. I'll likely just skim through everything. With Way of the Wicked, I've ran it twice, and even did multiple blog entries on how I would improve it, or advance some of the stuff. I had originally intended to do it with Throne of Night, but I just couldn't get myself to look over the pdfs a second time.

The Sword wrote:

I have previously been on of Gary's most strident supporters... Even I am struggling at this point not to write the project off.

However, my growing suspicion is that gary has lost all enthusiasm and motivation for the project. As a result all his creative juices have dried up and he is suffering from the mother of all writers block. Faced with the choice of producing nothing or something naff he has chosen nothing. I would imagine explaining this would get little sympathy so he hasn't. After all "I don't feel like it" isn't a very good reason for something not being completed.

However, this is a real phenomena. Ask George R Martin!

I can see Gary not having his heart in this project as he may have had previous. Sadly, there's little that can be done about it. Little that can be said. The only thing he can do if that's the case is to just put his head in the game. It's way harder to do than say, but sometimes you just need to do things you don't want to because no one else is going to do it for you, and sympathy can only help you so much, if at all.

Have to agree that this is an R. R. Martin situation.


It is getting pretty close to April.

Everybody cross your fingers for the next few weeks.

Think positive (I know, I know) and try to visualize those books arriving at your door in a big volcano shaped box with a bow on it.

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