[Fire Mountain Games] Throne of Night


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Grand Lodge

GM Rednal wrote:
I'm expecting nothing to occur at that point, given how things have gone... but at the same time, I'm interested to see how things progress afterward.

I'm not expecting much either, but people have been patiently waiting for the final date of the project to pass so they can legally go after Gary.


I know this has been hashed out again and again, but what caused this whole mess to happen?

Grand Lodge

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Eric Hinkle wrote:
I know this has been hashed out again and again, but what caused this whole mess to happen?

\

Good question. And we'd all love to know the answer to it. I don't think any of us actually know why things went down as they did.

It's been a while so I'm hoping I remember everything. Someone feel free to correct anything missing or wrong.

Here's the cliffnotes version:

-Gary did the Creature Cards Kickstarter. It barely made its money. People complained they weren't getting a hold of Gary, etc. Even today people are commenting about never having gotten anything. I made an announcement on there for everyone to read regarding Gary's disappearance.
-Gary did the dwarf/drow Kickstarter, but was essentially ignoring the other people posting on his previous KS, making those people less inclined to help with the second one. Some gave it a shot anyhow because of blind faith.
-KS 2 is fully funded with extras, and Book 1 comes out. Gary announces on the FMG Facebook page he'll be away for a while because he and his wife are going to celebrate their anniversary with a safari trip to Africa, and teases Book 2 pics, as well as Book 7 Way of the Wicked pics.
-Gary disappears for a year. Everyone assumes the worst has happened during the African safari.
-Gary pulls a Jesus and apologies for his being away. Doesn't explain why. Releases Book 2.
-Goes silent again, comes back and apologies again, and releases WotW Book 7.
-Goes silent once more, and people start putting up a pool on how long he'll be silent this time, as well as venting their frustrations.
-We start contacting Mike, the artist, and he apologies and says he's been in contact with Gary.
-Gary periodically appears and disappears, each time teasing art for books we might never see.
-Gary resurfaces one last time to give summaries and art for each of the remaining books, minus the extra book regarding the demigod.
-Mike comes to the forums and apologies again for Gary's behavior. At this time we learn that Mike has been paid in full, so we at least know that Mike didn't get ripped off.
-FMG website is closed and Mike is released from his duties as artist for the company. No official word from Gary on what's happening.
-Gary remains silent, but has currently backed 305 projects.

I think that about sums it up.


kevin_video wrote:
Eric Hinkle wrote:
I know this has been hashed out again and again, but what caused this whole mess to happen?

\

Good question. And we'd all love to know the answer to it. I don't think any of us actually know why things went down as they did.

It's been a while so I'm hoping I remember everything. Someone feel free to correct anything missing or wrong. ** spoiler omitted **...

That sounds -- odd. I was wondering if he or his family had severe health issues but that sounds like he just wandered off.

Grand Lodge

Eric Hinkle wrote:
kevin_video wrote:
Eric Hinkle wrote:
I know this has been hashed out again and again, but what caused this whole mess to happen?

\

Good question. And we'd all love to know the answer to it. I don't think any of us actually know why things went down as they did.

It's been a while so I'm hoping I remember everything. Someone feel free to correct anything missing or wrong. ** spoiler omitted **...

That sounds -- odd. I was wondering if he or his family had severe health issues but that sounds like he just wandered off.

Not gonna lie, the thought had occurred to me as well. More so when one of the "Wicked" anniversaries passed by and Gary released an exclusive discount in honour of his daughter's birthday. Not exactly something that'd happened before.

But, we'll see what happens in the next 25-26 hours.

Sovereign Court

Hi,
Basically, if I'm reading you all right, you can sue a KS after a certain number of anniversaries without the rewards ?
Can anyone expand on this ? (I am not planning to sue this one, but I have someone else in mind).

Grand Lodge

Stereofm wrote:

Hi,

Basically, if I'm reading you all right, you can sue a KS after a certain number of anniversaries without the rewards ?
Can anyone expand on this ? (I am not planning to sue this one, but I have someone else in mind).

Yes, you absolutely can. On th KS website it says that you can take legal action 5 years after the initial funding date, so long as the creator no longer tries to make contact with the consumers. If they are still in communication, you’re supposed to wait 5 years after the promised release date. However, it’s noted that if the creator is without money, you probably can’t get paid back and be out the lawyer fee.

Grand Lodge

The day has come and gone, and nothing was said or released. He just came online and backed more projects.

Whatever happens now, happens.


Oh come on people. Don´t tell me you really fall for the "I wonder if he has health problems" or "I wonder if he has real serious problems in the family" BS. Don´t sell yerself short like that.

I can tell you from personal experience that people with serious health issues or serious family problems DO NOT spend time scouring kickstarter for projects to back nor do they back 300+ projects in 3 years. They got other things on their mind, believe me.

No, the answer to the question why McBride has ripped us off is far easier to come by. I would write it down but paizo will only put the censorship pin on me again....

Grand Lodge

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Lord_Hyperion wrote:

Oh come on people. Don´t tell me you really fall for the "I wonder if he has health problems" or "I wonder if he has real serious problems in the family" BS. Don´t sell yerself short like that.

I can tell you from personal experience that people with serious health issues or serious family problems DO NOT spend time scouring kickstarter for projects to back nor do they back 300+ projects in 3 years. They got other things on their mind, believe me.

No, the answer to the question why McBride has ripped us off is far easier to come by. I would write it down but paizo will only put the censorship pin on me again....

Only at the beginning did I think that. Then I wondered about depression. I know I've been at a point where I literally couldn't do anything except escape on the internet and do nothing but surf the web. Being under that much stress wouldn't be healthy, especially if you suddenly developed writer's block, and oh boy is that ever not what you want to experience when you've already got the world on your shoulders. But I was told numerous times that no, he's got this. It's handled. Just give him time. Just have faith. That I would see. That others were in contact. So I passed that message along. That was the first two years. Then I stopped getting those messages until this past year saying once again that he's got this. It's nearing completion. But even then, those that told me weren't as convinced themselves and even they were apologizing when Gary wasn't.

Didn't help that KS wanted nothing to do with this either. They had their money. They didn't care.

No, this has gone on long enough and now court action is finally available. Gary will never see it, but I sent him one last message regarding my disappointment.

And after the constant defending and naive blind faith I had. To tell so many people to be patient. To not track him down. That they were all better than that. I feel the fool. Especially at the end. I hoped he would be responsible in some way.
Probably the worst part of this whole thing is it's killed my initial fire to write and likely will continue doing so until I move past this. They say you should never meet your heroes. I'm glad I never did. It'd have just been that much worse.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You're a better writer then Gary, you shouldn't dwell on this. :-)

Grand Lodge

captain yesterday wrote:
You're a better writer then Gary, you shouldn't dwell on this. :-)

I appreciate that.


kevin_video wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
You're a better writer then Gary, you shouldn't dwell on this. :-)
I appreciate that.

Yeah man, don´t let that keep you from writing. Yer stuff is of fine quality so that´d really be a waste.

Grand Lodge

Lord_Hyperion wrote:
kevin_video wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
You're a better writer then Gary, you shouldn't dwell on this. :-)
I appreciate that.
Yeah man, don´t let that keep you from writing. Yer stuff is of fine quality so that´d really be a waste.

It's not so much not writing, as much as the whole thing kills your enthusiasm and fire. The passion's not as strong. And it's not just this project. Having PF 2.0 around the corner, and each 3PP doing their own variation to 1.0 or revising the rules and making their own system, you're not sure of your place anymore.

What really sucks is I was REALLY hoping to have this adventure ran for my group. We had the perfect set up. In the campaign we're currently in, one of the characters just unlocked his bloodline and found out that he's both the rightful prince of both the elves and the dwarves. While we can't do anything for his current character, his son (our next campaign) can attempt to take up the throne. While Kingmaker works, Throne of Night would have been so much better.

Grand Lodge

On a different note, question I asked on the KS comments.

What do you think the legality of me posting the art and summary for Gary's last update is? Or the final map? Figured everyone was entitled to both at this point.


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Whether you like or dislike an individual has no impact on the validity of their copyright, trademark, or other ownership of content. While I think it's unlikely that the police are going to bust down your door if you share a few pictures, I'd advise against it. It seems likely that this is going to end up in court, and the last thing I think you want is any sort of "look at people illegally sharing things I made for them and cutting into my business when I clearly didn't want to make things public that way" defense. If plaintiffs want to share the art freely, it may be possible to work that into the class-action suit that I suspect is being worked on as we speak.

I am not a lawyer and none of the above should be treated as legal advice.

Grand Lodge

No, that's a fair argument, GM Rednal. Technically I'd already shared the text part and said what the art was, about a year ago in this very thread. We were all frustrated, and people wanted to know what the story was supposed to be. That said, I won't unnecessarily add fuel to the fire.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
kevin_video wrote:
Eric Hinkle wrote:
I know this has been hashed out again and again, but what caused this whole mess to happen?

\

Good question. And we'd all love to know the answer to it. I don't think any of us actually know why things went down as they did.

It's been a while so I'm hoping I remember everything. Someone feel free to correct anything missing or wrong. ** spoiler omitted **...

Going through Google and looking to Gary, I came across something I'd completely forgotten. Not only had he gone dark about this project, but Ogre: Nightfall as well. Another company had to pick up the slack and deliver the goods. This was back in 2014. Steve Jackson Games even went after him for what happened.


Given the apparent grab-and-run tactics that ended up happening here... I don't feel especially charitable towards Gary. I didn't back the project myself, but I have been burned on a few other projects, and what I dislike the most is creators who just stop talking. It's even more frustrating when you can see they're not dead and, in fact, appear to be in good enough shape to be grabbing a bunch of fun things on the very same platform.

I don't have the personal involvement in this issue that you do - it's clear from reading this thread that you put a lot of passion and effort into this topic, and I respect that you tried so hard - so that might be why I can approach it from more of a neutral perspective. Put simply, though, I want the backers of this project to win in court and get whatever settlement is appropriate for Mr. McBride's willful failure to live up to his obligations. While I'm trying to keep an open mind (innocent until proven guilty and all, since this is a court of law and not the court of public opinion we're talking about), the evidence suggests he is in no way a victim, and I'm firmly on the side of everyone who financially supported this project. For that reason, I'm just trying to think of things from the legal perspective and consider what would give the best chance of success.

If nothing else, I'd like to get some answers here - what happened, when did it happen, and what led to the circumstances we see today.

Grand Lodge

Believe me. We all want answers to those questions. The main problem we’re looking at is finances for court, and Americans willing to take him to court. Most of the backers live outside the jurisdiction, and KS rules stipulate that cases must go through a court in New York. Don’t know why that is though. Given that Oregon and New York are not the same state, I’m curious how someone is to get him to show up.


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Subpoena's are wonderful things. The court might be willing to accept a digital presence - to wit, live video.

Demands that cases go through certain courts are often included for the benefit of a company providing the terms. I don't know if that applies to everything from KS, though, or just issues with Kickstarter itself.

Anyway, if it really does happen as a Class Action suit (on behalf of all KS backers?), you might be able to find a lawyer willing to do it on attorneys' fees (25%-35% of the settlement, usually). That is, they get paid if they win. I clearly can't do it myself (I have no standing in such a case), but if I were a backer living in New York, I'd ask around for a few free consultations, present the facts of the case, and seek formal legal opinions on the likelihood of success and whether or not they could get it done at a speed appropriate for the work put in. There's exactly no chance of a top firm taking the case, but a "normal" firm (with reasonable rates) might actually go for it.

"Ask an expert" seems like a weirdly simple answer for a complex topic, but... that really does seem like the best strategy for getting some quick answers (like whether or not backers are likely to get any kind of refund).

Grand Lodge

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For anyone who’s interested, a blog post was created on EN World regarding our situation here. If you’d like to vent and tell your side, you’re welcome to join.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I have had other Kickstarters crash and burn. What adds insult to injury is that I added on the Ways of the Wicked books 1-6 in print, which is easy to fulfill through DTRPG and shipped. Send a few messages to Gary and even offered to pay for shipping. Silence is not golden....


I just realized there was a promised exclusive adventure called Palace of the Half-God. Did that get sent out to the backers?

Also I wish the best to all those who got burnt by this kickstarter. It's a lousy end to what started so promisingly.

Grand Lodge

Panticles wrote:
I just realized there was a promised exclusive adventure called Palace of the Half-God. Did that get sent out to the backers?

Nope.


As a non-backer, one thing I find a biggest point against the behavior of Fire Mountain Games is the apparent failure to send out Way of the Wicked stuff to people who ordered sets of that.

My understanding (<- I could be wrong) is that they were all pretty much available. When Book 7 was done, all copies for that stuff should've been sent out. Instead, some backers apparently didn't even get the stuff they ordered that was available, 100% finished and ready to print-on-demand. There's really no defense for that, I think.

Grand Lodge

GM Rednal wrote:

As a non-backer, one thing I find a biggest point against the behavior of Fire Mountain Games is the apparent failure to send out Way of the Wicked stuff to people who ordered sets of that.

My understanding (<- I could be wrong) is that they were all pretty much available. When Book 7 was done, all copies for that stuff should've been sent out. Instead, some backers apparently didn't even get the stuff they ordered that was available, 100% finished and ready to print-on-demand. There's really no defense for that, I think.

Gary's reasoning at the time was that he planned on cleaning up and doing a revision of the pdfs because of all the vast spelling mistakes and other errors myself and others had found and pointed out to him. Version 2 would be made available and then printed off. That did not happen. Worse, even the pdfs that were available weren't sent to the backers. So it was a lose-lose.

Grand Lodge

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kevin_video wrote:
Panticles wrote:
I just realized there was a promised exclusive adventure called Palace of the Half-God. Did that get sent out to the backers?
Nope.

I kind of meant to do this before when I replied, but kind of just let it go what with the fiasco of what's happening, and the lack of caring starting to kick in at this point. Anyway, wanted to bring up again that I made my version of what I was going to do for that boss encounter. From the picture you can tell he was going for a lich, but we don't want something that's so mundane as a human lich, again.

Instead, I made mine was a cunning aasimar dread lich godling. Probably a little too high for a CR to go into that particular scenario, but whatevs. I think Gary was going for something more in the CR 13-14 range.


kevin_video wrote:

I kind of meant to do this before when I replied, but kind of just let it go what with the fiasco of what's happening, and the lack of caring starting to kick in at this point. Anyway, wanted to bring up again that I made my version of what I was going to do for that boss encounter. From the picture you can tell he was going for a lich, but we don't want something that's so mundane as a human lich, again.

Instead, I made mine was a cunning aasimar dread lich godling. Probably a little too high for a CR to go into that particular scenario, but whatevs. I think Gary was going for something more in the CR 13-14 range.

That's definitely cool. However I think I'm going to make my demigod some kind of Neutral or Good character, because the party are currently allied with Karthus Deepfire in retaking his old lair and I want to make it morally difficult for them.

They have just retaken Fasturvalt from the drow army led by The Seven, seven drow siblings, and forced the drow out by capturing them using potions of etherealness and the geas spell.

Now they are heading back to their home base to find out whats been going on in their absence. Plus lots of magical items will be doled out!


Kickstarter is based out of Brooklyn, NY, I believe. NYC for sure.

That's probably why it needs to go through the NY courts.

Grand Lodge

Monkeygod wrote:

Kickstarter is based out of Brooklyn, NY, I believe. NYC for sure.

That's probably why it needs to go through the NY courts.

Makes sense.

Was on KS earlier tonight and saw that four of the comments were removed. Not sure whose comments were taken down or by whom, but it's something that should be made apparent.


Sometimes I wonder if we could cast a bit of a net out and see if there's any lawyer in the Brooklyn area willing to give consultations on Kickstarters for remote clients. I mean, backers don't necessarily have to be there as long as their attorney is, right?

Grand Lodge

That's a good question. Wish I had an answer.

I see we have to be careful what we say about Gary now. Someone posted on every one of the FMG book links about what happened and their opinion, and every single post was removed by staff. There were no threats of any kind, just someone warning off others and to not support the nonexistent company. That was enough though.


I noticed that. I think - though I'm not sure - that they prefer to have people keep the focus on the products themselves, rather than the creators. Otherwise, at what point does it stop? If one group is considered "fair game" for people to hate on, that can easily spread, and that can lead to way more toxicity in a community than there really should be.

I don't necessarily disagree with the posts that got removed (I saw them), but I understand why a company might want to remove them, and I wasn't surprised when it happened.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
GM Rednal wrote:

I noticed that. I think - though I'm not sure - that they prefer to have people keep the focus on the products themselves, rather than the creators. Otherwise, at what point does it stop? If one group is considered "fair game" for people to hate on, that can easily spread, and that can lead to way more toxicity in a community than there really should be.

I don't necessarily disagree with the posts that got removed (I saw them), but I understand why a company might want to remove them, and I wasn't surprised when it happened.

Also when your entire forum section is suddenly filled with products all repeating that one exact thing it does come across as pretty spammy.

Grand Lodge

GM Rednal wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree with the posts that got removed (I saw them), but I understand why a company might want to remove them, and I wasn't surprised when it happened.

Agreed, a company must remain neutral on these things. And I wasn't the least bit surprised either.

@Kevin Mack -- That's fair too.


So I'm still plowing through with my campaign. Currently the party is side tracked into fighting yuan ti and will probably be a couple of months on that before getting back to the main quest.

So I'm currently working on my version of Dammerhall and I have been reading through this thread looking for inspiration and ideas. I have done some draft work on the layout and have been thinking I will go with the dwarves finding a magical radioactive ore that they tried to use to build a primitive magic atomic generator that tore a rift into a radiation Dimension. This generated the black fire that killed everything in the city and still kills anything that attempts to get into the city. However this generated a whole bunch of ghosts and other incorpereal undead as well as creatures from the radiation Dimension that crossed over but can't exist outside of the black fire. Plus all the golems and other Constructs that roam the city.

As for the creatures from the radiation Dimension I'm thinking that they will have a B movie vibe but I'm still making up my mind on that.

Any suggestions for how I can improve things?


If you're going radiation, an Atomic Adept could be an interesting NPC.

Grand Lodge

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Panticles wrote:
Any suggestions for how I can improve things?

The Technology Guide, Kobolds of Golarion, and Heroes of the Darklands have some radiation related posts. Mainly the spells detect radiation and radiation ward, a radiation trap/hazard, and the Radiation subdomain for Earth. Radiation itself is discussed on page 55 of the Technology Guide (and on the Prd), but I'm sure you've got that info already. Finally, there's the amulet of radiation absorption that your players might want to eventually build (in the Heroes book) and a radiation detector.

Other than that, templates. SO MANY TEMPLATES. Giant Creature, Calcified Creature, Chthonic Creature, Fleshwarped (mutation variety), Gnarled Creature, Primordial Creature... And that's just examples from Paizo's list on the d20pfsrd. There's so many 3PP ones that fit too like Two-Headed Creature, Element Infused Creature, Flesh Plant, Poisonous Creature, Apocalypse Swarm, etc, etc, etc. There's so much you can do.

In 3.5, Dragon Magazine 350 released a section on mutation templates. These included arcane-blood, corrupted, poisonous, and stoneboned. Each of these had their strengths and drawbacks. However, if you took the Evolved feat, also in that magazine, you could negate one or two of the drawbacks (additional benefits of the feat were listed in each template). The poisonous template you'd need to adjust as per the conversion guide.

Hope that helps.


GM Rednal wrote:
If you're going radiation, an Atomic Adept could be an interesting NPC.

Got to look that up but it sounds pretty interesting!


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kevin_video wrote:
Some great stuff.

That helps a lot! I will have to convert some stuff because it's a 5E game but you've given me a lot to draw on.

I'm trying to have a a couple dozen encounter's in the city. Currently I have (and I've shamelessly stolen some ideas from this thread)

- dwarven ghosts driven to madness by their extremely painful deaths.

- dwarven constructs that repair the city and guard it's empty streets

- giant Irradiated insects that serve as prey for the mutated beasts from the radiation Dimension.

- An order of monks from the radiation Dimension that seek to learn the secrets of the rift but are unable to access the rift due to the monstrosities lairing in the area.

- warlords from the radiation Dimension clash amongst the ruins of Dammerhalls agricultural district.

- A vat of sentient liquid mithril that housed the Dwarven people's entire history. Let your imagination figure out the rest. (Stolen from this thread)

- a railway track connects the dwarven districts together, can you get this railway working again?

Feel free to throw some ideas out there!

Grand Lodge

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Some other ideas could be:

- The radiation affected those near the constructs and merged them (3.5 called the half-constructs and was a template).

- 5th has a radiation domain already (probably homebrew) according to a Google search earlier. Maybe people actually worship that stuff.

- Mutant goblins are a thing in Pathfinder, maybe there's that in your game too.

- Intelligent oozes. There's templates for that in Pathfinder (also found in the d20pfsrd), and 3.5 called them Sentry oozes. The radiation could have evolved them.

- Blight from Batman Beyond. Someone got too close to the source, and now it's a radiation monster that you can see its bones through its skin and shoots blasts or irradiated energy.

- Creatures that subsist on radiation. Maybe they require the source as nourishment.

- The source becomes unstable and now the threat of a meltdown is imminent.

- A radiation dragon. It used to be a fire or magma dragon, but has since been mutated. Its breath weapon is radiation.

Just things off the top of my head.


kevin_video wrote:
Some other ideas could be:.

Great stuff!

I have split the city of Dammerhall into districts. I imagine the city to be a vertical metropolis dug into a mountain. The Forge & mine district at the bottom moving into the main residential and agricultural district that then leads into a military/government/temple district with the guild & artisan district at the surface allowing easier access to trade.

I'm slowly figuring out encounters for each of the districts. I have rifts into the radiation Dimension opening in each of the districts allowing a wider variety of creatures and factions to be there.

This would be a lot easier with a map!:)

Grand Lodge

Panticles wrote:
This would be a lot easier with a map!:)

Oh, likely. About the only person that could give you that would be Michael Clarke. I'm wondering if he'd give it up to anyone if they asked super nice.

Other than that, I'd say just Google "dwarf city map", click on the Images tab, and choose one. I've seen a few good ones. One posted on reddit was even built over a lava flow.


kevin_video wrote:


Oh, likely. About the only person that could give you that would be Michael Clarke. I'm wondering if he'd give it up to anyone if they asked super nice.

Other than that, I'd say just Google "dwarf city map", click on the Images tab, and choose one. I've seen a few good ones. One posted on reddit was even built over a lava flow.

That would be great if he did that but I'm pretty sure that will never happen. I have no artistic talent but I'm building a map in paint.net. I will post it when I'm done.

First time I have ever done this so it's terrible but at least it's free!


My own version of Dammerhall is not yet fully fleshed out, but I kind of decided I would try and take some inspiration from Eberron's Sharn when it comes to the layout of the city. Districts could be named after kings of a past age (that are also represented by the statues seen in the picture of Dammerhall).

Grand Lodge

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It's heartbreaking to finally get a Paizo newsletter for the first time in literal months (their server was doing terribly for so long) and see Book 2 and Book 7 of Way of the Wicked be in the Top 10, and know that Throne of Night could have been part of that too. But nope. We don't get to experience that, and neither does Gary.

Makes me wish I'd won the lottery this weekend so one way or another this could finally be behind us.

Grand Lodge

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So learned something on KS the other day, and everyone who bought into the project should invoke their right to do so as well. Just post in the comments. Make your voice heard.

---------------------

Spoiler:
I invoke my rights under Kickstarter's Terms of Use:

https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012

"Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."

I demand a full refund for my pledge amount.

Grand Lodge

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kevin_video wrote:

So learned something on KS the other day, and everyone who bought into the project should invoke their right to do so as well. Just post in the comments. Make your voice heard.

---------------------

** spoiler omitted **

I didn't include the link, but just realized that not everyone will remember where on Kickstarter they'll need to go besides the comments section. So here.

Grand Lodge

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Because I keep an eye out for these things, I've been to Michael's web page, and he uploaded a map for a mine. It's only the first level, but it's something. Pretty sure it's been shared before though, but I'm not going through 26 pages to try find it.

If that doesn't tickle your fancy, check out Tumblr's Crosshead. This person has a Patreon, and so far has done two of six releases for dwarven maps.
Part 1 of the maps
Part 2 of the maps

For those of you still working on this, I hope the new maps help.

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