RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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A bit of story time, skip to the link at the bottom if you want instant results.
I got my Bestiary 3 in the mail today and flipped through it until I came upon the Ratfolk race, which is playable as PC race (includes rules for it, LA +0). My GF and I had recently lost our characters in our weekly game, so we struck up the grand idea to play a pair of ratfolk melee combatants, capitalizing on their "swarming" racial ability. It wasn't until I got further into it that I realized how disgusting it really is.
Swarming (Ex) Ratfolk are used to living and fighting communally, and are adept at swarming foes for their own gain and their foes’ detriment. Up to two ratfolk can share the same square at the same time. If two ratfolk in the same square attack
the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares.
After reading that, I immediately decided we should play a pair of ratfolk brothers. One would be a CMB fighter and the other a rogue, both with teamwork feats out the wazzu. This idea developed into a trip fighter who uses a scythe (weapon master) and a knife master rogue. We would be known as Stixx and Trixx, the Reaver Twins. Here's a breakdown of what I came up with for each.
*TW = Teamwork, RT = Rogue Talent*
Rogue: STR: 13 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 16 WIS: 8 CHA: 8
(1) Two Weapon Fighting (make additional OH attack, all attacks at -2)
(2RT) Finesse Rogue: Weapon Finesse (Dex > Str)
(3) TW - Paired Opportunists (+4 on AOO)
(4RT) Weapon Training: Weapon Focus (+1 to hit)
(5) TW - Tandem Trip (roll twice when tripping)
(6RT)Combat Trick; TW – Outflank (+4 to hit when flanking)
(7) TW – Precise Strike (+1d6 damage)
(8RT) Bleeding Attack (+1 bleed damage per sneak attack die)
(9) Improved Two Weapon Fighting (make another OH attack at a -5)
(10RT) Opportunist OR Crippling Strike
Fighter: STR: 14 DEX: 15 CON: 14 INT: 13 WIS: 8 CHA: 8
(1) Combat Expertise
(1-F) Improved Trip (+2 to trip)
(2) Fury’s Fall (+Dex to trip)
(3) TW - Paired Opportunists (+4 on AOO)
(3WM) Weapon Training (+1 to hit and damage)
(4) Weapon Focus (+1 to hit)
(5) TW - Tandem Trip (roll twice when tripping)
(6) TW – Outflank (+4 to hit when flanking)
(7) Greater Trip (+2 to trip, tripped foes provoke AOO)
(7WM) Weapon Training (increases to +2 to hit and damage)
(8) TW – Precise Strike (+1d6 damage)
(9) Greater Weapon Focus (+1 to hit)
(10) Weapon Specialization (+2 to damage)
Since they are considered to be flanking while in the same square, the sneak attack damage occurs provided both our characters are in the same square. The teamwork feats selected game this mechanic out, getting bonuses while flanking or taking AOOs (provided by people standing up from prone). This concept had now gone from quaint to WTF overpowered. The worst part of all this is that because of how overpowered I feel it to be, my GF and I will likely end up playing something else.
Anyway, I felt compelled to throw up a spreadsheet, assuming a 15 point buy, and that the two characters are occupying the same square. It is linked here.
So, in conclusion. Are these mild mannered ratfolk really, really good in certain regards? Have I just exploited a mechanic that few others will? Is it not actually overpowered and I'm just scared by all of my numbers!?? Discuss!
I am shocked, shocked! that two characters built together purposefully to be useful only with their partner are able to be powerful. I think you're looking at this from the angle of a single character, rather than two separate ones. If they aren't fighting together, that rogue will have a lot of difficulty.
P.S.: To add further fun, grab Butterfly's Sting as the rogue and use kukris, passing crits to your buddy. Then play a vivisectionist instead of rogue.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Heh, I suppose you're right. I dont want to cheese it up anymore with Butterfly sting, but thanks for more info. Idk, upon reflection the fighters only slightly better at tripping than a trip fighter, and likewise with the rogue. The tack presented does require both PCs to "move as one" which is riddled with logistical problem. I guess the end result is only the realization the Paizo produced a race that, true to its descriptive text, works really well with one another ;)
It realy simple teamwork feat "Are realy strong" if used in mass
great for party of folks even better if used as GM.
I played in to adventure path with with 2 pets and 3 PC having them it crazy strong.
At least they aren't cockroaches. But I'm all for it because using teamwork feats against the party is too much fun to pass up!
First issue is you made your rogue a skill monkey by pouring that much intelligence into their stats. Also the -2 STR for ratfolk really makes it that you should invest in dexterity fighting with both characters, keeping strength mainly so you can cary your stuff. For the fighter medium and heavy armor will slow you down anyway, so you can get away with it. Your guys will move slowly, but given that you want to stick together, a mechanical way of keeping one character from rushing off will make things slightly easier.
Consider getting weapon finesse and an agile weapon for your fighter instead. These things work with whips, so you can use that to trip instead.
Also, Asaris does make a good point with the bullrush, although it may be that because the enemy would be attempting to bullrush multiple creatures, the DC would increase as appropriate.
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I so want to send these after the PCs now, I never even read up on them much since I didn't want to make a Warhammer clone. But now that I am reading the ratfolk race description ... I must use them!
Poor Gripplis, you were cute and all and stealthy. But without swarm attacks then burrowing into the ground to escape, what have you to offer?
Don't ever think that a smart move like putting Butterfly Sting into this two-character build is cheesy. That's exactly what the casters want you to think. It's not even all that powerful. Not when a single caster can wipe the floor with both your characters with one well-placed spell.
Self-imposed guilt such as that is simply a long-time form of mass manipulation perpetrated by casters in order to maintain the status quo. Long live martials!
It sounds like the ratfolk would need to attack at the same time(one using a readied action) or they wouldn't get the flanking bonuses. Might just be me.
Also, yay thread necro!
Not when a single caster can wipe the floor with both your characters with one well-placed spell.
Make that a catfolk caster and the whole image is complete...
Not when a single caster can wipe the floor with both your characters with one well-placed spell.Make that a catfolk caster and the whole image is complete...
Especially if he hates those meeses to pieces!
My wife and I are playing a similar pair of ratfolk, though less fully optimized for team combat. Her character is a Rogue, mine is a Ranger (CS = Combat Style feat; he chose TWF style):
Rogue: STR: 10 DEX: 18 CON: 16 INT: 13 WIS: 16 CHA: 9
(1) Sharpclaw (two primary natural attacks for 1d4)
(2RT) Fast Stealth (move at full speed using Stealth, no penalty)
(3) Agile Maneuvers (add DEX bonus instead of STR bonus to CMB)
(4RT) Powerful Sneak - treat 1 as 2 on Sneak attack dice
(5) TW – Precise Strike (+1d6 damage)
(6RT) Weapon Finesse
(7) TW – Outflank (+4 to hit when flanking)
(8RT) Bleeding Attack (+1 bleed damage per sneak attack die)
Ranger: STR: 16 DEX: 22 CON: 14 INT: 15 WIS: 15 CHA: 12
(1) Additional Traits
(2CS) Two-Weapon Fighting
(3) Weapon Finesse
(5) TW – Precise Strike (+1d6 damage)
(6CS) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
(7) TW – Outflank (+4 to hit when flanking)
Yes, she has said several times that her character is really only effective in combat when she'd flanking with me. But so what, since flanking is so easy for us to do?
Figure may not be a need for another thread, but I'm trying to create a pair of NPCs that would grow with the party and use the swarming mechanic and butterfly sting's crit-fishing, and I'm looking to avoid the new ACG book, since it wasn't open to the players.
It's so easy to flank that it makes sense to use Rogue and pour on the d6's but it's a feat intensive build so I'm looking at options. I'd use the Swashbuckler to grant proficiency in the ideal Marshal weapons, a Kukri and Pick/Scythe
I want the builds to come online as early as possible but I'm not sure how to execute it.
Crit Fisher
Rogue (Swashbuckler): Uses Kukri and I feel like Finesse-TWF is the best way to get as many attacks in as possible.
1: Combat Expertise
2: trick Combat trick: Butterfly Sting
3: TWF
4: Finesse Rogue
Other option is going 1: TWF, 2: Finesse, 3: Combat Expertise, 4: Butterfly Sting
This Rogue starts to work at Lv2, and comes online at 4th. One is fishing at 2nd level, while the other is TWF-ing for Sneak attack damage.
The other option is to use Fighter or Lore-warden for bonus feats and better Hit-rate
Lore-Warden: Gets to Dump Int
1: TWF, Fighter feat: Finesse
2 (bonus): Combat Expertise
3: Butterfly Sting
Or a different fighter takes Lv1: Combat Exp, Butterfly Sting. Lv2 TWF, Lv3 Finesse
The Finisher is a little more straight forward. Rogue gets Sneak Attack damage, although Fighter would give more damage potential since he's hitting with an x4 crit Pick, so I'm also not sure what to go with there...
Anyone have any thoughts on the numbers. I want these NPC's to be functional allys to the party if the players win them over, or be significant foes that'll present a real credible threat at some point.
To OP:
Like many others have already said, have the rogue take Butterfly Sting if you're going this route and capitalize on the crits with the fighter. Might want to take on some of the shield feats to help guard the rogue, but why stop there? Why not instead become an inquisitor/monk(mast of many styles) and have the rogue actually be a vivisectionist?
If you want the whole ratfolk rogue thing to work, make both PCs into ratfolk rogue or ninja snipers and capitalize on stealth, movement, and AOO when your "adjacent" (you're sniping from the same square) ally hits and or misses (because there are feats for both of those). Take full advantage of poison use and illusion. It would be best to be pure ninjas and acquire Assassinate since it takes a lvl 20 rogue to get the same thing. Ninjas are more likely to do well because of their illusion ninja tricks, their incredible maneuverability (good in case your enemy finds out where he's being sniped from), and they have the same sneak dmg as a rogue.
Unless you need your ratfolk brothers to unlock, disarm, and be the skill monkeys of the party, do not go the fighter/rogue route. There are much more powerful class synergies for this race.
Combine Butterfly Sting with Outflank+Combat Reflexes, most things should die on the first crit.
I've been toying with a very similar idea. My DM even granted me permission to play both of the rats. After a month now I think I've finally decided on playing a crit fishing two weapon fighting vanguard slayer and a tetsubo wielding kensai magus, if I have it planned out right by about level 6 I win with using; lookout, butterfly's sting, outflank, and paired opportunist. After they get coordinate charge I'm pretty sure it's at least one surprise round kill.
Multi-attacking could be interesting. But the really neat one is the Magus. Have one Crit-fisher and then a magus as the finisher to spellstrike for the crits.
As a suggestion, make one of the rats a Bodyguard style character. Perhaps an Honor Guard Cavalier with Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard.
AC for days.
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Why is everyone thinking that melee is the only way to take advantage of occupying the same square? Seriously, two ratfolk ninjas sniping from the same spot are considered flanking, both have poison use, both will be hard to find, both do sneak damage (which will outweight any melee hit due to size penalties), and both can have teamwork feats that add to attack rolls for "flanking" (swarming)! If you hit, crit, or miss, there are teamwork feats for that, too! Your size really works to your advantage here...
Get Sniper's Goggles to keep dealing sneak damage from any range and further increase attack rolls (if the enemy is within 30ft)
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Flanking applies only to melee.
There is a teamwork feats that allows you to "flank" from range as long as you have some buddies engaged in melee. I'm not sure if that applies to swarming or not but it could be argued as a loophole
a bodyguard could be a good way to roll the finisher.
The issues are that the build will have low strength due to the -2 for being a ratfolk, so not a lot of static damage. The appeal of the rogue is that it gets the Sneak attack for flanking to make up for the lack of a good static mod.
Then hitting with an x4 weapon nets decent damage for the finisher's crit. Magus takes further advantage using a spell-striking Socking grasp and adds x4 weapon damage to it which would be nifty. Otherwise Power-Attacking with an x4 2-hand weapon lets you deal 12 damage plus 4[w]+4str on the crit.
Flanking applies only to melee.
Swarming: Ratfolk are used to living and fighting communally, and are adept at swarming foes for their own gain and their foes' detriment. Up to two ratfolk can share the same square at the same time. If two ratfolk in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares.
Coordinated Shot:
Benefit: If your ally with this feat is threatening an opponent and is not providing cover to that opponent against your ranged attacks, you gain a +1 bonus on ranged attacks against that opponent. If your ally with this feat is flanking that opponent with another ally (even if that other ally doesn't have this feat), this bonus increases to +2.
Enfilading Fire:
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on ranged attacks made against a foe flanked by 1 or more allies with this feat.
Outflank:
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.
(Stop me if I'm wrong, but I believe this can work with the next feat)
Paired Opportunist:
Benefit: Whenever you are adjacent to an ally who also has this feat, you receive a +4 circumstance bonus on attacks of opportunity against creatures that you both threaten. Enemies that provoke attacks of opportunity from your ally also provoke attacks of opportunity from you so long as you threaten them (even if the situation or an ability would normally deny you the attack of opportunity). This does not allow you to take more than one attack of opportunity against a creature for a given action.
Target of Opportunity:
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat makes a ranged attack and hits an opponent within 30 feet of you, you can spend an immediate action to make a single ranged attack against that opponent. Your ranged weapon must be in hand, loaded, and ready to be fired or thrown for you to make the ranged attack.
Seize the Moment:
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat confirms a critical hit against an opponent that you also threaten, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent.
I do believe in the description for SWARMING and in the teamwork feats listed above that it only states "FLANKING" and says nothing of a "MELEE" attack. Game. Set. Match.
Go read the rules for flanking. None of those abilities grant flanking to ranged attacks.
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At no point do any of those "this provokes an attack of opportunity" feats/abilities affect how a character "threatens" an enemy. You are conflating Target of Opportunity (which does not actually say "attack of opportunity" and never says anything about "threat") with increasing someone's effective threat radius via a ranged weapon.
There is a feat (at the end of a tree if memory serves) that lets your bow count like a melee weapon up to 5 feet away (so, as if it were a sword), and that's the closest you could get to flanking with a ranged weapon.
The text on "threatened"
Declaring victory in an online discussion is...yeah there is no analogy I can find that isn't deeply offensive.Threatened Squares
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
Improved Snap Shot says "Hi."
So, it's doable, just not from an absurd distance.
You can't make AoOs with a ranged weapon unless you have a feat or feature that allows it, such as Snap Shot.
My bad. I forgot to throw this in there. Dunno how I missed it....
Ranged Flank:
Benefit: When attacking with ranged or thrown weapons from a distance of up to 30 feet, if the nearest adjacent space to your target is unoccupied and the opposite space is occupied by a threatening ally, you are considered flanking. Both you and your ally gain all the benefits of flanking, including +2 flanking bonus on attacks, rogues can sneak attack, etc.
This should still work with Swarming though AOO are only for melee attacks unless you have Snap Shot. Improved Snap Shot and Greater Snap Shot would be good feat investments.
I'm aware of what the description says for Target of Opportunity and I can see it working even if you're using a crossbow and you have Rapid Reload as loading your crossbow is a free action, therefore even after you spend a full round attack you can still, as a free action, load your crossbow before your turn is up. One additional shot a round granted by Target of Opportunity is still very handy, especially when you're dealing sneak damage as a ninja.
So.. can I declare victory now? :P
So.. can I declare victory now? :P
Maybe try using actual pathfinder rules next time.
doting for future NPCs