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We are adventurers and we are adventuring. We are fallowing the path of the Dead Suns adventure, but I have this concern...We keep failing to kill people.

Our hale and hearty band includes a crafty and creative Android Mechanic, who makes machines and technology dance to his will. We are protected by a mighty, monastic Vesk Solarian who lost her honor and most of her name in some sort of noodle incident involving Skittermander. Bending the laws of physics is...well we have some player drift but that slot keeps getting filled with a caster. And me, the charismatic and charming Envoy...with whiskers and a long tail.

But we keep failing to kill people. It all started with

Incident at absalom station spoiler:
the Android Operative...no actually it started earlier. My memories are foggy (we play slow) but I recall there was a gang-leader we needed to "deal with". After lucky-crit removing her heavy hitter we knocked her out and then stabilized them both. We gave them a stern lecture and stole their stuff, there may gave been more but I can't recall.

Then we got to the derelict ship. Instead of just killing everything we actually rescued the two idiot goblins and, to make matters worse, when the ship left us on the drift rock they were aboard. This annoyed our employer enough he decided to punish us...by making them a part of our crew.

After that we beat down but did not kill the Android Operative who surrendered. We patched her up and left her with some (but not all) of her gear so she'd be less able to shoot us in the back, moreover we had reason to accept that she wouldn't be jumping us when we were her ship had been trashed.

She declined to come with us into the mysterious facility, did not face any of the hazards, but when the final boss fled through the walls to escape us it ran straight into her. A few die rolls later she showed up and asked for more healing, shocked we were still alive.

After that are some events I don't recall, but I think we actually did what we were supposed to...until we talked to Guido.

Temple of the Twelve spoiler:

I don't remember names, but I call the local criminal/coyote/fixer guy "guido". I dressed the part of an even scarier mafioso and walked in with an android who was acting "I care not for meatbags" and a glowing-but-with-blackness (graviton armor) Vesk and intimidated everyone between me and the answers I wanted. Not a shot fired, spent 100 credits on "playing and looking the part".

After that we went on Safari. We faced the stampede and something like half the successes we needed to escape were me making intimidate checks against giant thunderfoot beasts. Jokes about "mouse that roared" and "elephants afraid of mice" abounded.

Other things happened, a##$@#& scorpion monkeys etc, but things didn't get weird again until the cultist. We saved her life, because at the time I was still in the mindset that every scrap of intel is important for your shadowrun to succeedheroes to win the day. I then decided (because I'm playing a gentleman adventurer who picks up the Rat Man's Burden and believes that Ysoki's prevalence across the universe proves we are manifest destiny to guide and help other races) to recruit her.

Then we got to the undead elf solarion. Now every person I have seen on the internet says they had to kill him dead. I listened to his tale and thought, "wait, can't I rules-lawyer this? He's in a magical bind he doesn't like." So after pointing out that we were clearly members of the cult *point to cultist we rescued* and he was under orders to take cult member orders under advisement, he should follow our suggestion to go check out a dead monster all the way down the mountain path, FAR away from us and any potential power-struggles that are perfectly normal business as usual for the Cult of the Devourer.

He said, "that's a damn good point" and walked away.

After that (and a boss fight or two) we had another crew member (cultist girl) and the Professor had a whole new avenue of research called "chatting with this dead guy."

Of course, that led us into prime-time. We had an NPC crew, we had a ship, we had a lead...so off we went

Splintered Worlds:
into the Diaspora.

Our Solarian used diplomacy (and a suprising amount of charm) to talk the pirate who was supposed to be our space battle into just giving us coordinates and leaving us alone.

On the asteroid, we captured the mind-slave Sarcesian sniper because we thought he was a cultist who knew the entry code. I spent several hours grief counseling him later.

Leaving the asteroid, we stole the Devourer-themed Golemforged Plate and decided to wear it, forgetting that it's Devourer themed for several sessions and accidentally making some intimidate checks with it.

On Eox, we failed to kill the undead who were roughing up one of their fellow soldiers, instead robbing them and sending them home in their skivvies to explain to the base commander why they were out of uniform and missing their kit.

We tried a "higher ground" strategy against the giant monster by climbing the building, and falling through it...

We brought a mind-mage enchanter to an undead fight and she spent most of the fight ENRAGING the hopping vampire/ranged specialist with 'you don't get to make ranged attacks' fog cloud.

And since 75% of the party doesn't need to breathe, (those ioun stones are dollar-menu cheap) we had trouble even recognizing that the assassins sent after us were trying to assassinate us.

All-in-all, I think our watchword for that book was "Macgoo".

And now, we're in Ruined Clouds. No need for spoilers, but after successfully hitting the first 3 locations on the track we've killed a total of 1 person, and he was technically killed by his friend under the influence of a suggestion spell, and he still honestly believes it was his own idea and that his friend had betrayed him. (also, it was a lucky crit).

Okay, maybe 2 people. There's a critter that might be sapient, I'm not sure because I can't exactly look at the stat blocks of an AP book I am currently in. But we even didn't kill (saved, actually) the inside-out dudes.

So yeah, I think we're doing it wrong. I may lose my GUMBO card. Still having fun though.


I'll do one better; compare the actual job they're being asked to do (wear a wire, talk a bit, don't start a fight but finish it) with the MO of a standard Confidential Informant, especially within the context of the more 'adventurously enforced' jurisdictions that are the Pact Worlds.


I had a thought the other day as I was burning and pillaging yet another town that made the unfortunate mistake of trying to arrest me for vagrancy. Adventurers often have a bad reputation; and many times when an elf, a dwarf, some indeterminate life-form made entirely of spikes, and 2 giant spiders wander into town the so-called "murderhobo alarm" is sounded and people scurry indoors with terrified looks on their faces. It seems the average village, town, or capital city expects wandering purveyors of violent science to burn their homes and steal their things.

As a card-carrying member of the Golarion Union of Murderhoboes for the Betterment of Others *holds up blood-stained, obviously stolen card* I pondered the best way to deal with such mistaken assumptions, and came upon the idea of putting forth a challenge to you good folk. What do you believe is the best way to win friends and influence people via good works and non-murder activities?

Joking aside, my mild addiction to god games and city/nation sims mean every character I play inevitably wants to exploit non-combat situations/powers to either make money or (because WBL) win indefinite forms of influence. After all, adventurers SHOULD have a bad reputation (the difference between "hero of the land" and "homeless serial killer" is who writes the press release) and having the town guard or local lord actually LIKE you because you did something for him is really nice the next time you need a new quest hook (because you killed the last one accidentally) or to bail a party member out of jail.

Plus, any time the cleric is upgrading a magic sword for his ungrateful teammates those teammates need something to do for a few days.

Now magic is easy. Run around casting mend (or at higher levels, stone shape/fabricate) and you can win a lot of friends in a few hours, but these ideas are still welcome. The REAL challenges are figuring out good works a Martial or Sneak character can do, and ways in which the efforts might accidentally intentionally go wrong because the GM is a bastard.

Example: Wizard talks with the captain of the guard, uses fabricate to outfit an entire platoon with masterwork quality weapons and armor for the cost of the base materials, now the blacksmith's union is pissed at the wizard for costing them a prime contract.


Cthulhu's stats, as well as Vorpal weapons, for reference.

Answer: Yeah, sure. I mean why not? We're already talking a critter that requires crazy-big power builds or cheating to hit. And you have to do it twice, AND you have to do it in specific speed, AND he hits like a freight train and has a miss chance.

The only argument that would halfway work against it within the rules is that because the blade uses Circle of Death, it counts as a death effect.

Other options for a level 20 party include burying it with arrows, explosive rune shenanigans, or my go-to cheeseball trump spell; Trap the Soul.


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Golems. Frankly, I hate 'em. When I want to build a robot the LAST thing I want is a humanoid structure. I can just hire a human (or ogre) for that, or even polymorph a critter into one, and chances are it will have more hit points and be easier to heal!

But most constructs are golems, so golems we'll discuss: Are they worth it?

As adventuring companions? No. By the time you can AFFORD one it is outclassed by anything you will be fighting. Unless you "cheat" your wealth (go off and break WBL rules, which isn't always adhered to) you're only going to have a very expensive caddy carrying your junk, it can't hit hard enough or take enough hits to go toe-to-toe with anything scary, and going toe-to-toe with things is what golems do.

As guardians of the home and minions? Probably. It's STILL super-expensive, but quite often your home base and your army of loyal followers are exempt from WBL rules and so you can have an Iron Archer shooting things or an imposing flesh construct toting loads and looking creepy.

Crafting them is actually not that hard. You need cash, SO much cash, but getting the prerequisites isn't that hard. The craft skill is "DC" rather than "skill ranks" so even if you assume you aren't allowed to just throw down Fabricate spells until you make the craft check untrained (party cleric has crafter's fortune) you can hire "skilled laborer" for pretty cheap to help you, he will only be working for 3 months, tops. OR you can just up the DC of the spellcraft check by 5 (theoretically).

Now HEALING is another issue. I *do* love how the Iron Golem is healed by fire magic, and if you strap a cursed Cloak of Immolation on it it ends up with fast healing 1 (sort of) and a terrifying Holocaust Cloak look as it stomps around. on fire. ALL THE TIME. Everything else requires costly crafting checks, regular doses of Make Whole, or some other specific spell that heals that particular construct (usually high level, too). Oooooor, you can spend another 45k to make it a shield guardian, and with fast healing 5 and limited spell storage it might actually make a good second-line bodyguard for your boom-spell caster. It still needs a REAL combat-guy to stand in front of it, but them's the breaks.

I mean there are also a few magic items out there, construct channel brick or the right kind of cleric, but it's a lot harder than "heals naturally, level 1 adept or cleric makes it faster."

But you know what's even better? Animated objects. They can be anything. ANYTHING. Wooden horse that never tires? Got it. Floating table that carries my lazy butt all over the place? No problem. Walking Tower Shield that slaps down Improved Cover at various points on the battlefield? Heck yeah. Unfathomably giant flying scorpion that mounts 7 (or more) siege weapon hardpoints, carries an entire half-brigade of troopers, and hits like a freight train? A third the price of an Iron golem.

And instead of Damage Reduction they have hardness. Since you're operating on the cheap they are probably made of stone (steel is better, but you have to find a raw supply of iron) and it's only hardness 8, but I honestly prefer hardness 8 to DR/most anything, because inevitably the enemy will show up with alchemical weapons or weapons that cut through the DR. Not much cuts through hardness, and what does at least makes up for it by being really valuable (adamantine).

Repairs are still difficult, but at their price you don't mind so much if you lose one and as long as they survive you can just stuff 'em in the hole until you have enough Make Whole spells to fix 'em up. When leaving a Colossal Combat-bot to protect your mage's tower and the associated town just make sure one of the local boys has Use magic Device and a wand or a staff to do repair magic. Staff is rechargeable (good) but more expensive by leaps and bounds.

Obviously a "guardian" colossal animated object would need planning and prep. You'd need loyal minions to "drive" it by ordering it to follow the Pilot's orders, and siege teams to work the Ballistae and Manticore's Tails, but that's a small price to pay for having a setup that can legitimately threaten a dragon or a sizable army. Not to mention it looks like whatever you want. A big ol' Oliphant, Shamu the killer whale, or a giant bird-woman are all options.

Anyway, the key point of golems is money. They are crazy expensive for something that is undeniably tough. Is the price tag something you can afford, and will it do whatever you wanted it to do well for the price you are paying?

Also, there are no rules for tunneling or for riding inside a giant burrowing construct, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.


The ineffectual weapons clause was, "we of the design team SERIOUSLY have better things to do than write 'tunnel-digging the rpg' so we're leaving it up to the DM with some very vague rules that are fairly clearly DM's prerogative."

As for a dagger cutting through a wall, well I like to pretend the adamantine dagger is like a plasma cutter. Sure it can sublimate or slice through solid stone and steel, but only to a very short depth. If you start carving at angles and essentially strip-mining or quarrying your way through you'll eventually get there, but it will take quite a while.

Say, one-quarter damage, ignores hardness, standard action to make a cut that will lead to cutting through the wall in question.


That's probably what I'd rule if approached at the table, but doubt is a niggling, persistent thing.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

This is probably a dumb question, but it runs the risk of showing up in a campaign and I am curious.

Magic Circle Against Technology, like all the magic circle spells, is an upgrade of the Protection from Technology spell. But Protection from Technology is different from Protection from Evil in a key way; it doesn't have the following passage:

SRD said wrote:
Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Summoned creatures that are not evil are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell Resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.

No big deal, it's not like technology gets "summoned" and only robots really count as "technological creatures" anyway, right? Except Magic Circle against technology says this:

SRD again wrote:
...Robots receive a saving throw and spell resistance to avoid being kept at bay,

So now I have a doubt, is it intentional that the two spells are different, or is Protection from Technology supposed to prevent robots from touching those protected by it? Did someone copy-paste the wrong section or am I just being foolish even asking?


Hey, been a while dere.


The hardest part is "kill him in one round."

The second-hardest part is making sure that as a character being targeted by level 10 people he doesn't have access to raise dead.


Aelryinth wrote:

The feat should show that you are an expert in Combat.

it doesn't. It just shows you know how to fight defensively a little better.

It needs to actually do something that says "I am a professional, smart combatant. Watch this!"

It doesn't.

==Aelryinth

The fact that it trees into all those other feats which require "expert combat" works, fluff-wise. I suppose you could make the argument for a minor bonus to CMB and/or CMD, maybe +1 to both?

I have most definitely used combat expertise and/or fighting defensively in combat. There are times when you just can't hit the bad guy (he has DR you can't cut through, or whatever) but as the party martial, it's your job to keep that enemy distracted while it wails away on you until the archer with special arrows or the alchemist or whatever can rain down enough damage to take the beastie out. Or even just hold position for a turn while everyone else runs away.

But that's actually a lie, because while I can and have fought defensively, ain't no one can afford a 13 int on point buy for a melee martial.


Quote:
Uploading a mind from a neurocam into a clone takes 10 minutes. If the mind belonged to the same creature that was used to grow the clone, it immediately comes back to life as if under the effects of a clone spell (including 2 negative levels or 2 points of Constitution drain)—provided the user's soul has not yet passed to the Boneyard and been judged. It possesses the same Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma of the original mind, all of that creature's skills, and most of the memories and personality of the creature (though there may be gaps or differences). A mind uploaded into a clone after its soul has been judged results in a soulless approximation of the original.

The bolded parts suggest that soul transference happens. Though I suppose it is a GM's call.

Alternatively, I suppose Magic Jar could take advantage of an otherwise mindless empty shell of a body. Lot more labor-intensive, of course, but for a high level caster you have the option.


Dragon seems even more abusable, sure you may START with your boring ol' baseline (minus 2) mental stats, but then your wyrmling dragon body starts to grow and your mental stats follow suit.


Umbrella.


Sorry to animate thread here, but 2 things came up while I was looking at batteries.

First: they weigh 1 pound. This isn't such a big deal except for an item that is supposed to be "interchangeable with a platinum piece" 1 pound is pretty heavy. Changes how you carry treasure and whether or not they're actually WORTH carrying sometimes.

Second: If "The bulk of "silverdisks" in circulation today are destroyed batteries;" are there any guidelines for what percentage can't be recharged in a randomly-found hoard?


graystone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Katana's are awesome, if you're a gunslinger you should take weapon focus Katana, just to use it better.
As awesome as they are, I sure they can fire bullets too! ;)

So searching for Gun Katana sent me to a japanese porn game involving a hot chick fighting (and presumably other things) aliens or something with a katana.

Checking...nope, not actually surprised.


Tick another +1 on the "no, he gets a reflex save, period, deal with it" camp.

This doesn't appear to have been mentioned yet:

Timdog wrote:
...which would hit for about 50hp that turn, then again the next turn as the dragon exited the spell...

Why the heck would it be hitting twice? Either it takes effect on the clerics initiative and does damage once or it takes effect on the dragon's turn and takes effect once. Then the dragon is out of the area.

And to expand on flying enemies, a flying creature can do a 90 or 180 degree turn for a DC 15 and DC 20 skill check respectively. ANY critter with a flight speed starts with a +8 for having a fly speed and then adds dex and ranks (which will usually be more than enough) assuming they didn't take wingover or hover, letting them do whatever the heck they want with their flight.

Big stompy SINGLE enemies tend to lose to a party, some joker PC gets a lucky crit or they get an unlucky fail or something happens to wreck the villain's day. But if I was squatting on a CR 15 dragon and he was just getting slapped around by one caster who he (for whatever reason) couldn't just snatch up and eat, I'd have him ready an action to disrupt casting. Sunder his toys. Do what it took.

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing stopping you from sundering a ring of free action, for that matter.


I could swear there are Staves (the wizard spellcasty kind) that are made of or coated in metal, and can be used by a staff magus.

But that's complicated, Bob bob bob seems to have a much simpler one.


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I had a serious comment I wanted to make, but I'm not sure I should...

Eh, why not: I wish there was a rogue archetype that traded in sneak attack for something else. If bard can give up performance, there should be a rogue who isn't packing some brand of backstab.

No, "skirmish" doesn't count.


kadance wrote:
PRD: wrote:
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
So, a penalty to dexterity won't do anything. You'll need dexterity damage or drain.

THERE we go. I figured there was going to be something. As much as I like the idea of throwing glue at the living blob and watching it slow down and harden into a lumpy callous, it didn't really seem like a trick that would work.

Also, thanks for the list. Looks like most good tricks don't work (polymorph-school magic, poison) though it is amusing to me that Fleshworm infestation does.


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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

My beef with Charm Person is easy.

I have a decent spellcraft. I ID you casting the spell. I fail my Will, then somehow I start treating you like you're my BFF, despite the fact that I know EXACTLY why I am. How do I roll with that?

Your brain apparently tricks you into believing it's okay that they charmed you, because their super-cool guys.

Rynjin wrote:
Except you DO have control over what he does. It literally says it in the spell. You can make them do things against their nature with a Cha check.
the srd wrote:
/you can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing.

Time and effort is a factor. IRL with the right kinds of psychology (indoctrination, groupthink, propaganda, hypnotism) you cannot make someone do something "truly against their nature"; but you can work on them until their nature has changed.


So, I was perusing the ooze entries in the SRD for unrelated reasons when I remembered a question that had arisen in a game a while back.

As a rule, oozes have crap dexterity. No big deal for them, they're oozes, but what happens when I decide to exploit that? I can't find any entry that says oozes are immune to grappling, ability damage, or the entangled condition.

What happens if I hit a 1 dex ooze with a net and it ends up with (effectively) a -3 dexterity? And even if you rule it is immune to the net because it's a freaking net, what if you hit it with an ooey-gooey tanglefoot bag?

Since ray of clumsiness does not appear to have ported over with other 3.5 spells, what other methods are there of cheaply dealing a small amount of dex damage/penalty to an ooze? Or did I miss something and I'm completely wrong about their immunities?


With homebrew rules someone with the right skillz (spellcraft, at LEAST a crafting feat, probably all 3 needed for constructs) could "hack" an appropriately inactive and/or docile construct given time. There would undoubtedly be skill checks and risks involved including the risk of it going berserk or the hack failing at an unexpected time, but that's half the fun (for the GM, at least).

You could also, in theory, bluff or disguise your way into controlling it. At least my quick search didn't turn up anything saying that a mindless creature cannot be bluffed into believing, say, that you are its creator under the effects of a magical disguise. Then you simply order it to obey the orders and commands of this guy you are pointing at as if those orders were your own until further notice.

Simply trapping it in a portable hole will let you transport it without issue, though it will still be uncontrolled. Maybe then someone who DOES have the skills can "hack" it since the party probably doesn't have them.

Break it down to parts and build it again.

That's all I can think of.


Thing about war is that mass combat rules aren't very good (at least according to most reviewers) and if memory serves your troop type and its special abilities don't matter as much when you toss it into said mass-combat rules. I believe that an Iron golem is just a walking CR, and the enemy enchanter who shouldn't be able to do ANYTHING to it is also just a walking CR who has an even chance of beating it.

I could be wrong on that, and for all I know you'll be using some other brand of combat rules anyway, but it's something you will want to look into.

Anyways...

Crafting constructs requires Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Craft Construct. It also requires an UNGODLY amount of money. Golems are super-duper expensive, more so if you make them shield guardians (and you generally do).

Personally, I prefer Animated Objects. They are cheaper to build, their modular design means you can give them special movement types or make them for specific purposes (like a helicarrier, or a burrowing transport), and hardness if often better than DR.

Ultimate Magic (paizo product) has more options for building and modifying constructs as well as a handy list of prices and types for everything that was out before bestiary 2 or 3 (don't remember). There are more constructs to look through but you will have to sort those by source yourself, I am lazy.

Now then, class doesn't matter that much. Crafting is based on spellcraft checks, and while a wizard is better (higher int bonus) a cleric automatically knows all cleric spells while a wizard does not. Lacking a spell because you do not know it or because it is not on your spell list means increasing the craft DC by 5, and I am not sure which class is more likely to NOT have the spells you want for all construct types.

Leadership is good, since an apprentice of a different class can shore up missing spell types and just craft his own stuff. Additionally, followers can be useful "pilots" for constructs that aren't very smart. A giant stone man that is hollow inside can hold a warrior giving it orders of what to attack and where to go. A flying metal bird can get a really lousy ranged attack with a 20' range increment on it's own, or it can have a non-magical ballista strapped to its belly and fired by a warrior riding on it for (often) greater effect. To say nothing of giving one of the riders a wand of Make Whole to effect in-combat healing.

Finally, because you'll be needing LAUGHABLE amounts of money, you'll want to look into ways of getting that money, and discussing with the GM whether that is allowed and what you can do with it. Ironically it is much cheaper to hire a band of 20 CR 11 mercenaries for several years than build 2 CR 11 Iron Golems.

Also, there's a fun trick where you take an Iron Golem, give him a cursed cloak of immolation, and watch him burst into flame. The fire constantly heals him, and can at least theoretically damage others.


Need a tank. In between the Alchemist and the Rogue SOMEONE should be capable of dealing damage, but your paladin is going ranged and you need someone to stand there and be a blocker for the ranged guys to hide behind. Fighter can do that, but the wheels fall off that class pretty early (so plan a build that jumps to another class). Barbarian will want an archetype (invulnerable rager, armored hulk, whatever). Synthesist Summoner can do it but has numerous issues with people not liking the class and the reasons they don't like the class.

Key things that a knowledge: local check should be able to tell you; There be robots, robots have hardness rather than DR (so energy damage will not save you, but power attack might), there are places where you really want to have a Face (charisma-skill guy), and learn the technology rules (including the fact that technology tends to be more expensive and less effective than similar magic) because there is technology.


I have problems wrapping my head around Charm Person working in general, and I can't see it working long-term at all.

In general, the concept of suddenly liking someone is weird for me. Suddenly everything they do seems cool and you trust them, even though there's no logical reason? Maybe I'm a sociopath with severely limited emotions, but when I feel something my rational mind still notices that I am feeling things and tries to ask why.

But okay, it works, roll with it.

But when someone throws something at me and says something I don't understand and suddenly my feelings change, most likely VIOLENTLY change from at least mild suspicion (probably hostility) to absolute trust and agreement? Yeah I'm going to know it was magic. And I don't care because I'm charmed and it's cool, but the moment the charm wears off I'm going to suddenly revert to whatever I was feeling before AND remember they threw some kind of magic at me and then I acted like an idiot and liked the guy who was throwing magic on me? My default reaction as any kind of character is going to be some brand of hellaciously mad and vengeful.

Bear in mind, this is speaking as a player. I'm about to play a wizard and I think, "charm person? No."

Moving on, a charmed person trusts and likes you. The "limits of friendship" argument is as big a beartrap as you want it to be, but never really seems an issue for me. You've got a friend, you can get him to do reasonable stuff with a charisma check and you can actually go to work with a diplomacy check to try and convince him to do other stuff.

But when the duration runs out, I expect the mark to have gone from whatever s/he was (maybe indifferent) to extremely hostile unless you had some other magic trick up your sleeve to make them not realize they were charmed. You get a save, you KNOW you tried to make a save, you know someone just threw magic at you.

Maybe you have a 6 Int and are too stupid to realize you were charmed, but outside of something like that...


Just a Guess wrote:
boring7 wrote:


Well, you could always play with the bleed RAW instead of the RAI. Say that the fast healing is equaled by the bleed damage until you actually tie off the artery.

Or not do bleed damage in the first place, it hasn't come up much in my games, and even if it did, no one is saying fast healing should be automatic for everybody, just easier than "harder than raising the dead."

Why should we use the silly RAW if we are told the RAI and it makes much more sense?

James Jacobs wrote:


The intent is that any actual healing can stop bleed damage. The wording of "any spell" is a bit confusing, alas. Channeled energy, regeneration, and fast healing should all stop bleed damage.
If bleed did not come up often that is ok for you. But if you play APs you will encounter bleed damage unless your GM puts on the kids gloves. Because there are AP encounters build around bleed damage.

I have yet to see one.


Nah, everybody loves fighters, they're like football stars. Just pick a weapon you think is shiny and cool and gush about it. And rogues, well they ARE slayers, just with lower stats. Honestly, they're not less bland, they're exactly the same bland. "Me kills da things wit da killin'."


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Gisher wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

The Hunter can actually pick up Fast Healing 1 from 1st level. Take the Verminous Hunter, either shamelessly murder your animal companion or allow it to die as a martyr for your cause, apply Worm animal focus to yourself. Fast Healing 1 and scaling Fortification.

I knew there was at least one good option I was forgetting on my last count and that's it.

Also, Bramble Brewer Alchemists get some fast healing through their mutagen.

How many points and for how long? There's a blurry line between "I get fast healing" and "I get really slow cure spells."


This thread again?

UnArcaneElection wrote:


* * * * * * * *

Also, more generally, you want to see this thread and this thread.

Ah, already covered.

Anzyr wrote:
Naggy the Hag wrote:
Im surprised noone has mentioned witch yet... coven, duh.
You need an actual Hag for that. And if you want a loyal Hag you'd best wait til you can cast Simulacrum to make one.

There's some trick that lets you get past it, let me see...*googles around*

Yep, here we go, just takes some murder and an expensive magic item, maybe two items at worst.

Not that big on coven magic anyway, feels exploity and half-assed.


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kestral287 wrote:
Just a Guess wrote:
FingPat wrote:
Don't forget bleed damage, Fast Healing effectively neutralizes Bleed Damage.

This.

I have seen several encounters using bleed damage and fast healing was very strong in one of them and would have been in all.
Especially if the bleed has some additional effect, like healing the one making you bleed.

And, for some time I've been playing a dwarf inquisitor with the favored class bonus into buffing the healing judgment. The fast healing 5 he had at level 9 was noticeable. Especially as he could share it with another pc via shared judgment.
Sure, the shorter combats last the weaker it gets in the case of healing judgment. But in some fights it adds up.

I take it your Inquisitor was avoiding the front lines or somehow just not being targeted?

Well, you could always play with the bleed RAW instead of the RAI. Say that the fast healing is equaled by the bleed damage until you actually tie off the artery.

Or not do bleed damage in the first place, it hasn't come up much in my games, and even if it did, no one is saying fast healing should be automatic for everybody, just easier than "harder than raising the dead."

Bleed itself is just fast healing in reverse, so every argument against fast healing being powerful applies to bleed damage in reverse.

Note that thread's from 2009, so if you necromancy it, it's your own fault.


Aaaah, that's what it is.


I don't know. Every time I try to read the Slayer I fall asleep.

Okay, that's overbearing, I honestly just haven't had a sneaky-sneak character idea bouncing around in my head that sparked my interest for a long time. Ultimately, character is what it's about. There are a enough guides and I know enough of the general rules that building a character who is decent at her job is fairly easy. And if the party has a hole that needs filling, I can usually dream up a character backstory and setup that does the job fairly easily. But since I haven't been in a party that needed a sneaky-stabby character for over decade I can't think of anything I want to play.

Without that, without some sort of broken ground to put a root into, I can't grow a character with the class and can't really get into exploring the concept.

That said, I remember 3.5 and I remember playing rogues that can't hit anything, spend most fights trying desperately to get a flank buddy and failing, and looking at their "amazing" sneak attack damage and the regular boring damage done by the party martial and realizing they're better.

Slayer fills the bill of sneaky stabby guy. That is an incredibly common trope, it is rogue but trading a few damage dice and abilities for full BAB. It is bland, open, and can fit the bill for anyone from Aragort the Ranger to Zenzer the devil-may-care anti-hero with friends in low places to Malfeasiol the horrible hit man from the brutal Lotus Cartel. It's like tofu, you add the flavor.

Is it a good class? Seems to be. Rogue's main problem is they can't hit spit. Everything else that is "weak" about them can either be mitigated or was essentially a feature rather than a bug. But you can't do anything about a monster with a high flat-footed AC, which is most of them.

I mean, it might be nice if there was a talent that let you sneak up on unsneakables like critters with tremorsense, and/or something that gave "skill tricks" that did supernatural (or at least impossible) things with skills because they're just that awesome and it slows down the "casters are too powerful" complaints a tiny bit. But that comes up less often than, "oh boy! I brought a bunch of d6s to this fight so I can finally do some damage and...I can only hit most of these dudes on a 19+..."


Pretty sure it only applies to saving throws. Actually, I'm not even sure how sunder works. The lazy perusal of the SRD doesn't mention what AC you're actually supposed to hit when engaging in a sunder attempt.

Sundering is a hassle anyway, it's kind of a jerk move by the GM, and no player wants to break the thing they want to steal and keep.


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Reposting from a thread about theoretical infinite-cast CLW wondrous items:

boring7 wrote:

Why it's a big deal: Continuous healing, regeneration, and similar abilities are really expensive or require you be really high level and sacrifice really good abilities for them.

Why it's no big deal: A wand of CLW that will last you half of the campaign* costs less than half the price.

Why it's actually a good thing: Part of the game is resource management, but WBL says that when the party uses up all its potions and wands it should get them replaced (just as they shouldn't be allowed to spend 2 weeks using crafting magic to become super-rich). The only thing you do by forcing the party to stick with wands is take craft wand (maybe, ought to be able to just buy 3 at any decent-sized town) and track charges.

Moreover, while the wand gets used by a cleric or another caster, it really is an item for the melee martials, since they're the ones taking all the hits and having to say, "hey, I'm out of HP, time to head back to town because we can't keep going." It actually helps AVOID the 15-minute adventure day.

If you're that concerned, make it once per minute. That way even the 10 minutes/day buffs can fall off if you're healing someone up.

*Slight hyperbole, but it'll last any regular-sized dungeon.

The dynamic doesn't really change much from "I regenerate with fast healing" and "we have enough wands that I heal up to full between every fight." The question is: Is your campaign and adventure one of running yourself ragged and slowly being nickled-and-dimed down to weakness throughout a long and arduous journey/battle? Or are you Fantasy SWAT, kicking down doors and raiding baddies and having your epic fights be epic because the final bosses are so big and bad that it doesn't matter if you were at full strength?

Obviously I'm simplifying things a bit, lotta spectrum, but that's the math side.

The narrative side still kinda works, but adventurers and superheroes with amazing endurance and the ability to heal from "beaten and bloody" to "back in action" shows up in a lot of media, especially anime. Can't count the number of times a manga hero has been turned into a mass of injury and bandages, but one oversized meal and a few hours of rest.

Makes me think of this riff on food as healing (nsfw language).


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Looks like he's going Archer Paladin.

If you go Pantheon, you invoke Calistria when bringing "divine vengeance" upon evil, you invoke Alseta whenever you are crossing thresholds, you call upon Ketephys when chasing evil, and you pray to Yuelral for protection from evil magic.


Brain in a Jar wrote:

The other deities don't fit LN, LG, or NG which are the set limitations for Paladin Gods, in Golarion.

Last I checked this was only a rule in PFS, and that outside that technically you could be a Paladin of Asmodeus, stupid as that is.

According to the golariopedia:

Quote:


Religions
A paladin is more likely to not worship a given deity, but to simply abide by a personal code or organizational doctrine. Paladins who worship most commonly follow the ways of Iomedae, the goddess of justice. Like fighters, the paladin also may pay service to the deities of war or organization. Torag (command) is common, as are Abadar (nobility), Irori (self-perfection), Sarenrae (redemption), and even Shelyn (love).

So it's not that weird to say you worship the Elven Pantheon and have a host of sayings and prayers for different situations.


The Snap shot tree is only available to fighters.


Everybody knows you want to poly any object that kind of thing anyway, in case you need to throw it over a low wall to avoid getting covered in the backwash. There is also the issue of whether or not you can upend a portable hole. And if lava in the extra-dimensional space doesn't lose it's heat, then you run the very real risk of baking to death despite adequate air supply if you try riding in one for any extended period of time.


Scarred witch doctor tanks it up.

Sorcerer seems the most thematic since they fit a "don't need no book-lernin' don't really care about this magic stuff, just wanna fight" character.


Dunno. My first instinct is Fighter simply because there are a hojillion feats you want to take and you want to be taking them before the campaign shifts/ends around level 8-13.


First: A totally sweet ride with the after-market Plane-shift, Planar Adaptation, Negative Energy Protection, and Dimensional Lock add-ons.

Second: A shield guardian Iron Archer golem. Name him "Chauncey." Give him a top hat and a butler's coat.

Third: I dunno, whatever. Maybe a Demiplane.

Now if you're allowed to still buy regular stuff from regular merchants, go stack up all the regular things like Portable Holes, cubic gate to your demiplane, necklace of adaptation, ring of free action, some heavy-duty siege weapons for the airship, etc.


Jiggy wrote:
boring7 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Excalibur

What's the plan for the macguffin sword that you go questing for?

No wait, that seems passive-aggressive; what's YOUR plan for the Macguffin sword that the party goes questing for? I can think of a few ways, but I'm curious what yours would be.

I'm not sure what you're asking.

You've got a plot, the plot involves searching for a MacGuffin Sword of power (golden lance, holy avenger, Master Sword, whatever) somewhere on the way to completing the adventure.

How does the career of the sword-swinging warrior's sword abilities go through this plot?

I'm just curious what your preferred method would be.


I believe it's one of the many enchantments that has been repeatedly thwacked with a nerf bat over many years and editions until it's practically useless. To be fair, a weapon that you don't have to touch or even pay attention to is a weapon begging for ways to abuse it.

A simpler solution is thus: the level at which your CASTER can blow 50k on a dancing sword is the level at which you can afford a pet construct or 4 which can stand next to you and make those kinds of moves. 2 animated steel tower shields would provide decent cover and blocking, and with hardness 10 they'd soak anything short of the Big Melee Monster standing right next to you and wailing away. A shield guardian golem would cost more, (45k gold on top of whatever golem you picked) but would heal itself and give you shield other.

Obviously this is subject to DM discretion, since it goes a bit beyond buying a magic sword, but I am pretty sure it is a better use of your money.


Jiggy wrote:
Excalibur

What's the plan for the macguffin sword that you go questing for?

No wait, that seems passive-aggressive; what's YOUR plan for the Macguffin sword that the party goes questing for? I can think of a few ways, but I'm curious what yours would be.


"As you grow in experience, more mysteries of your grandfather's sword unlock."


Ross Byers wrote:
You can use it to make a convertible.

Nice.


Another thing, if WBL is flat-out wrong when you pregen a character to be 10th level because your Paladin Fell (into a pit of lava), what IS the correct WBL that the new one should have when she shows up with all her gear? Apparently the paladin was supposed to have 62k gold, "some of which" would be potions and his wand of Heal Mount and "some of which" would be an evil sword he needed to sell. When the sorceress comes in, what percentage of her items need to be magical axes she can't use and has to sell at half price?

I mean, not to be a jerk, but either the number is correct (give or take a bit) or it isn't. And either you're supposed to be around that number (again, give or take a bit) or you're supposed to have gotten that much over the course of your adventure and nothing more. Tough patooties if the GM rolled lucky on that rust monster ambush, your stuff be gone and your character be crippled for life.

If it's option A there's going to be metagaming going on as a matter of course, if it's option B then your spending needs to be that much more vanilla and OCD-boring-optimized.


Even if you stretch that as far as it will go, someone who spends half his gold on wands and burns through them is supposed to get back up, at least according to the general WBL rules. There's this unstated rule that he never will, and that the PCs would rather sell than use the vast majority of the consumable items they get, but it's never stated and never codified.

And part of the point, I suppose, is that those, too, are aspects of wealth that the WBL "unwritten rules" mean your PCs can never use, just like the 30k gold boat or the really nice palace that is basically a punishment to own.

I mean, personally, 2 out of the last 3 games buried me in useless magic items (and I do mean useless, cantrip wands and a sum total of 600 CLW charges across numerous wands) and severely limited places to buy, sell, or craft stuff. In one of them we could outfit every single party member with a +2 or better greataxe (no one used 2-handed weapons) and were still at half WBL when you added it up.


LazarX wrote:
RoboPorthos wrote:
What's always the "last guy's job" in your group? Mine tends to shirk the cleric entirely and I was wondering if that is common.
I've yet to see anyone rejoice in taking the role of healbot.

I like playing healbot, people will fall over themselves to protect me while I get to do what I always love doing, toss spells with one hand while holding a cocktail glass in the other.

Trapsmith is actually the problem entry, because while there are a lot of ways to make it work they all cost class abilities, skill points, and/or other resources that nobody wanted to actually spend because they wanted to do X. I mean, you can git'r'done with a single trait and 2 skill points (per level) if you have access to that 1 trait from Mummy's mask (apparently), but that's still a wasted trait and a wasted skill track (we won't count perception, but we will count disable device).

What can I say? We don't find traps or the traditional "thief" to be fun.

Another thing we have a problem with is filling a blank when someone switches archetypes. We have player a who likes playing Faces, but if he really gets into a bookish spellcaster with no people skills it's hard to get someone else to step up to the plate. We have someone who loves frontlining it with a big ol' tank, but when he decides to experiment with monk our backup is a gisher and the healbot-lover (me).

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