Jemet Winderbole

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I like those suggestions; gunslinger and witch.

It's not going to be played in NYC or even in modern times. It's going to be a typical campaign with the personality of the characters from the show using the essence of the characters for their respective classes.

Barney is not a paladin. He lies, cheats, has tons of charisma for lying and diplomacy, he's a master of disguise, etc etc. Ted is telling the story throughout the entire series. He's always telling stories. He's a bard.

So I'm going to persuade my friends to join me in this legen- wait for it-dary adventure. I need some help figuring out some characters though. I've already got a few figured out:

Barney Stinson (can also be played as a female named Sue Top) - rogue
Ted Mosby - bard
Marshall Eriksen - paladin/druid (make an alignment exception)

The two I need help with:
Robin Scherbatsky - barbarian, monk, something else?
Lilly Eriksen - cleric? I have no idea

I love playing rogues and I'm going to have so much fun playing the deceitful, master of disguise, slight-of-hand expert, web-spinner, Barney Stinson. His high charisma is going to be great with all of his innuendos, jokes, and catch phrases. Please, I just need help with Lilly and Robin. I don't want to get them wrong.

All you really need to do is figure out how you can get to 45 stealth or higher. There should only be a few enemies you come across who have exceptional perception checks.

Abraham spalding wrote:

1) The Counter GM
You get to the game things are going alright and suddenly your major thing no longer works. If you are a fire mage all the enemies are fire-proof, if you are a paladin all the enemies are neutral. If you are ranged there is always fog, wind walls, deeper darkness or some other means that prevents you from attacking at range. Regardless of what you want to do it no longer works. High attack bonus? Everything's AC jumps, high AC? Everything's attack bonus jumps, lots of damage? More HP, SoS/SoD? Nothing fails its saves. So you develop new tactics just to have them closed down too, eventually nothing works because everything is immune to everything.

What to do: Talk to your GM about the problem. It could be he has a weird idea of just how effective things are or he doesn't realize much he's overcompensating for your abilities. Assure your GM you aren't looking to have an easy time, but you would like to be able to do the things you are good at sometimes.

I've had this issue before. My GM was especially ignorant to game mechanics and how they pertain to rogues. The other rogue in the party was prone and had a fireball then cast at him. Because he was prone he was not allowed Evasion or his reflex save. The rogue pointed out that not only does it not say this anywhere in the rules about evasion but it also doesn't say losing a saving throw for being prone. GM said it didn't matter because being prone was equivalent to losing your dex which negates a reflex saving throw, which he could not use the book as support for but deemed it so as he was the GM.

The second time was with me when I was wanting to stealth. I originally asked if he'd allow me to take the feat Hellcat Stealth which he rejected since it was created in a specific module and we were not using that module. He instead suggested Shadowdancer so I could use stealth so long as I was in a shadow or dim light of some kind. After taking a level in Shadowdancer, the next game we came up against two werewolves in a dark alley. Our fighters were exchanging blows with the werewolves and I wanted to stealth. The GM said, "What's the point? As soon as you get close they're going to know where you are so you wont get sneak attack anyway." Werewolves have scent, which meant to my GM that so long as I was within 20ft, yeah that's right, 20ft, that they would know my exact location and they would regain their dex to me. Fine. I let it slide since I knew we wouldn't be coming up against anything else with scent in the up-coming games.

Later, during that same game, we came across some orcs with darkvision. Again, I tried to stealth while in a shadow and the GM said I couldn't because they had darkvision and could therefore still see me. This is where I fought him tooth and nail pointing out the exact language and getting opinions from people at Pazio (who were in my favor). I showed him everything and kept on it for a whole week before our next game, but he would not give in. The day before our game I e-mailed everyone that because of differences I was bowing out of the game. The GM replied everyone back and slammed me for quitting after discussing the issue all week and for him "putting up with me" instead of kicking me out after the first time I e-mailed him about it. I just laughed it off hoping everyone would see how two-faced he was. He made it clear we could argue rules with him so long as it did not interrupt game time. I did just that and still got disrespected.

It's very sad to find GMs who obsess over their power and claim ignorance over "the law". Such is the country we live in.

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Let me make sure I've got everything correct:
- the rogue is a member of the party
- the GM is allowing this to happen and wont let you protect yourself by restraining him
- the party members in-game are aware of the rogue's behavior
- the rogue is only stealing from you

As long as all of that is true, I'd say to create a bad reputation for the rogue, make your party well-known in the metropolis, do something really dastardly crime without being caught and pin it on the rogue, and then quit the group of the GM is gonna be a piece of crap to grant one player favor over another.

I love playing rogues and I have to say, from my experience, the GM often finds a way to make the rogue useless or just ignores the class and focuses on the fighters and spell-casters. This GM is favoring the rogue, but doing so against the other players. If any player does something to another player, so long as the characters find out, all bets are off. It shows how favorable the other player is to the GM than you are. Are the rogue and the GM in a romantic relationship? Does the GM despise you?

Here's your major problem with the Kunai -- the pointy end does slashing damage and the ring on the other end does the bludgeoning damage. You cannot effectively use it at range because throwing it should give you a 50%-50% chance of doing slashing or bludgeoning. It's not weighted like a throwing axe and thusly cannot be mastered like one when it comes to throwing. Why not ditch Bludgeoner and get Throw Anything and throw your sap instead (which does 1d6 damage rather than 1d4 damage)? Or even better, why not keep your sap in your hand and since you're surprising them with the attack anyway (in order to get Underhanded) knock them out while being close to them so you dont have to throw your weapon and be helpless until the next round when you can pick it back up?

Give them a dragon >:)

Where can you find stats for the katana? The onyl stuff I found is that it is a two-handed exotic weapon but no damage or crit info. To be more clear, a daikatana is a two-handed exotic weapon and is extremely long, thus requiring two hands. A katana is a one-handed weapon often wielded with a washizaki in the off-hand (Japanese shortsword) although the katana can be used with 1 and 1/2 hands with the second hand really just there for balance and control as from the middle finger down the rest of the hand is off the hilt.

Anyway, that's what we do for homebrew for better accuracy of the Japanese blade. Again, where can I find the damage, crit, and other info for the katana?

If you decide to be an elf, you can use the 2h weapon Elven Curve Blade and finesse the weapon to use your dex for attack rolls instead of strength. If you get Agile on it you can use dex for damage instead of strength.

Elven Curve Blade is 1d10 18-20/2x -blade-elven ities/agile

By your avatar your charisma should be more like a 3...

If you're wanting to be a support from a mile away you may want to look into the world of psionics. *shudders* That's as close as I care to get to that world..

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Why are you wanting to boost linguistics so much? Are you trying to counterfeit money or something?

Dafydd wrote:

I would suggest against it. The smallest a player race gets is Tiny, which is gonna cost them a good chunk of change for the permanent reduce person.

Being fine, and being a spell caster is gonna give him a lot of buffs you probally will not want him to have. For example, he will be able to sit inside someone's armor and be untargetable.

He doesnt have to be targetable. All you need is a fireball spell and guess what? He is 1 inch tall so no matter how good his reflex save is he can't dodge it, logically :P

I say to let him play it and everytime his character speaks make people roll a perception check to hear him. DC 25 within 5 feet and increase by 10 for every 5 feet further. That'll teach him


Michael Talley 759 wrote:
Snickersnack wrote:
Even better, a high level wizard or sorcerer would probably scoff at the level 1 hypnotizing sorcerer and (since they are far wiser than he) would stop him or perhaps hypnotize him and make him do their bidding just for giggles.

Very good reason to start small (IE, just make friends with Merchants in towns with just "you like me" to get small discounts on gear and Equipment)

Have Iron will, and perhaps the trait to resist Charm and Compulsion magics. Even so, never try and over reach as a level 1.

Then again, wouldn't one be earning experience by starting on this mad quest, so even if he does do hypnotism, he might earn XP from that brightly sparkling GM of Pennies ;-) for doing so.

(Especially if he manages to place under hypnotism some semi-important people)

But best rule is to start small as he is suggesting, but I'd also stop at the 'my corner of said world' ie, this small town that I want to make 'better'

My Kobold is basically doing that without notice because he doesn't go beyond 'you like me' or 'i'm a good kobold'

If you can get away with it, your DM is lacking skills required to make your game fun

boring7 wrote:

Hey guize wat's goin' on in this thread?

Hypnotism breakd the limit that diplomacy has (can only adjust a person's attitude two steps, 3 with the right trait) but is otherwise no different than just maxing out diplomacy. Stack on Charm person to get people to accept Hypnotism in the first place and max out your diplomacy (a trait, skill ranks, and a 20 charisma = a +10 without even trying hard) to fill in the gaps and you're good.

Then the other shoe drops, and the same word you used to describe your situation proves your downfall. The 500$ jeopardy answer is "Cult Leader", for the question I will say "what is an incredibly common BBEG for low-level adventurers who are just getting started before they chase a REAL campaign plot?"

You'll be up to your eyeballs in battle-clerics, barbarians and wizards before you can say "abracadabra" and your cult, being made up of a small village, will fold like wet tissue paper.

Other options include:

Guardsmen says "sure, cast it," lies (your sense motive is crap), makes his save and the fun begins. Bonus points if he took spellcraft and recognizes the spell.

An obedient slave is "talked down" by family members, he still likes you but he's against you because he just thinks you have gotten out of control and need to be stopped for your own good. Pretty easy diplomacy check if you aren't making major deliveries on all your cult-leader promises.

You have converted the town, they believe in you, you are mayor, but in order to get an keep it you had to help everyone, work really hard to make the town a better place under your leadership, and otherwise just be a good leader in the first place. Congratulations, your benevolent dictatorship has risen by virtue of you actually being benevolent, and in fact far too busy to abuse your power.

I completely agree. You're counting on your victims to be mindless and not deceive you in any way. Also, as soon as your followers start growing in numbers and others from distant places learn what you're doing and find out how weak you are (even if you aren't weak) dont you suppose there is going to be some kind of force or forces that come to try and stop you?

Theoretically it could work, if your DM was as bright as a 1901 penny, but most likely he's going to foil your plot and make the rest of your group happy again.

Lets turn the tables, shall we? Let's say you're a level 1 fighter in a new campaign and your DM tells you guys that there are rumors about a village a few towns over where a sorcerer has the full support of the town, whatever it is, and that he is trying to spread his power across the neighboring town. Don't you think your party of all level 1 characters would have fun squashing a power-hungry caster? Even better, a high level wizard or sorcerer would probably scoff at the level 1 hypnotizing sorcerer and (since they are far wiser than he) would stop him or perhaps hypnotize him and make him do their bidding just for giggles.

Mind-games are never easy, and there is no way a level 1 would rule the world, even by chance, but have fun trying.

What about the Sniper Shot feat? It doesnt show up on the general feat list but I can find it there when I search for it.

Combat Patrol is nice. Would extend your reach capabilities. I would also consider picking up a few levels of Shadowdancer for the explicit purpose of "shadow jumping". You'd get other beneficial class features of the Shadowdancer, such as Darkvision, Hide in Plain Sight (scary as **** for a barbarian to vanish into thin air), Evasion, and Defensive Roll. I would recommend 6 levels Shadowdancer and 14 levels Bloodrager.Both classes are Charisma based for casting purposes so they should really go well together. You could use a scythe as a weapon and..... pretend you're the Grim Reaper.....

Halfling druid is fun. Think about being a small guy and having a tiger, bear, or other large animal as your companion. Summon swarms on your enemies or elementals. You could also invest in Perform: Juggler as part of a circus act backstory.

Frenir wrote:

Looking for feedback on this build, I have never done a two weapon fighter before and I wanted to stay away from the feint and two weapon feint feat charts.

Kitsune Rogue Scout Arch Type
Ability Scores 12 18 12 13 10 12 after racial mods Level 4 +1 Dex, Level 8 +1 dex, level 12 +1 int

Traits Observant (Grand Lodge), Veteran of Battle (Gorum) help with drawing weapons in a surprise round to work well with underhanded.

1 Two Weapon Fighting
2 Rogue Talent - Finesse Rogue
3 Combat Expertise
4 Rogue Combat Trick - Blind Fight
5 Kitsune Realistic Likeness or Shadow Strike
6 Ninja Trick - Pressure Points and Rogue Talent - Weapon Training (took favored class bonus for kitsune 6 times)
7 Moonlight Stalker
8 Rogue Talent - Underhanded
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Advanced Rogue Talent - Crippling Strike, Improved Evasion, Unwitting Ally, Talent Feat - Gangup ? (not really sure)
11 Whatever feat I didn't take at 5th.
12 The two Advanced Talents I didn't take at 10 (took favored class bonus for kitsune 6 times)

So I really want to take Kitsune Realstic Likeness for RP flavor earlier on but that really hampers my hitting concealed opponents.
I know I could achieve the same affect with like a hat of disguise, etc.

So things I like about this build I can do 3 str or 2 str & 1 dex with each sneak attack at higher levels.

Around 7th level I am going to get a cloak of minor displacement so I get my moonlight stalker bonus all the time except for a cleric with true sight cast.

Underhanded really lets me control the surprise round, with being able to draw a weapon as a free action I get to basically kill whatever I attack opening scene.

At low levels the bite attack can be helpful trying to get more damage and sneak attack in, Weapon Finesse stacks with the bite which makes it even better.

Scout Arch type does make me lose uncanny dodge but I feel like Scout's Charge and Skirmisher that are basically going to let me sneak attacks more often. Even if I have to re position via...

Make it a kitsune ninja and play it as if it were a rogue. "Dress" it as a "rogue" and roleplay it as one, too. You'll love the new changes they made to rogue ;)

Cam James wrote:

9: A master Illusionist gnome is a foot. turns out half the city you are in really doesn't exist at all....

10: His duo partner, A master mesmerizer, has the other half of the city completely duped in regards to the rest of the city... good luck explaining it to the locals...

@8. but couldn't I just knock the tower down and loot the fallen structure? im pretty handy with sunder and a large hammer ^_^

No, sir. It's not your grandma's tower. It's a massive tower that has a radius of 50ft at the bottom and finally tapers to a 20ft radius at the top. Depending how profitable the specific school of magic was in that region the tower will vary in width and size (should be between 150ft and 250ft given 10ft per floor though some rooms may be taller than others to house a guard dragon)

Le Petite Mort wrote:

I'm thinking of using it to make 'cement boots' by wrapping the stone in big blocks around creatures' feet/legs.

Who else has amazing uses they don't see used much?

Also, would enemies get saves against my stone? What would they be?

Why not make either a pit of spike under or around an enemy? Another great option is to encase them in a 10x10 stone prison (which they will surely suffocate in), or better yet, make a stone wall behind your enemy that has spikes facing them. Force push/punch them into the wall (dealing damage from the force punch AND from the damage of the spiked wall). If you're playing a wizard, GET CREATIVE ;)

The Rogue class only does one thing: for a small party, the rogue can be used to help cover all of the misc skills that might be required for the group to be successful. With 4 players or more, however, the rogue is not needed. The rogue can also be substituted for the bard or wizard in small parties without care. The rogue is dead.

captain yesterday wrote:
then you sir need better traps:)

How often can you prepare traps for an encounter that actually do what they're supposed to? How many times are you caught off-guard or without enough time to prepare or you're not exactly sure where the encounter will take place?

Barachiel Shina wrote:

So tired of this debate. Really.

ROGUE does not = Super Saiyan D&D Ninja

I repeat

ROGUE does not = Super Saiyan D&D Ninja

The only problem I see people complaining about the Rogue, is that it boils down to "They're not wizards."

You can't compare any class to a Wizard. The Wizard's job is solely to make everyone else look feeble in combat. Wizards have a spell for, practically, everything.

People expect the Rogue to be this martial master of combat, except I NEVER saw the Rogue like that. Not in any edition of D&D was the Rogue ever on par with any class combat-wise.

Why not? Because that's just not what they do.

Let's get this straight folks:

---A rogue is the guy who just heisted a secure vault and managed to pin it on someone else for the crime
---A rogue is the guy that knew how to get around the city to get the information you needed without leaving a trail
---A rogue is the guy who was not there for half the battle, but that's because he set up some elaborate environmental trap on half the enemies and took them down without lifting a finger
---A rogue is that McGuyver kind of guy, his mastery over mundane tools and magical tools (as most Rogues should max out UMD) gives him an edge in almost any situation as long as they are creative enough
---A rogue is the guy who disguised himself as the guards and infiltrated to assassinate the guy that intended to make the PCs lives hell by using all the military and political power he had
---A rogue is the guy that had the right sort of contacts to pretty much get whatever it is you needed
---A rogue is the guy that rose through the ranks of an organization for the sole purpose of spying and betraying them
---A rogue is the guy that was off rescuing victims, mentally mapping passageways, sabotaging ambushes and traps, misleading and misdirection enemies into danger, and basically speeding up your dungeon bashing game so that a quest that would have taken a month to finish, he just helped you do it in a week
---A rogue would...

Because disguise and bluff are rogue only skills, yes. I see your point. Oh, and rogues have magical barriers to protect against Detect Alignment and such.. with high BAB. Ok. Gotcha. Oh, and the traps? Those traps are so very hard to avoid.. so hard to avoid they barely go off. Ever. Because no one sets them off. If they do, they better watch out for the 5d4 damage they do! Lethal!

8. In the many different schools of magic, each school has their own tower. Each tower climbs into the sky with each new floor containing more and more precious materials and items. The tower levels also go as deep as many floors that go upwards. Each tower is controlled by the headmaster of the school, a powerful wizard. One headmaster seeks power and thus must be stopped. His tower, however, is rigged with traps of different sorts (some levels containing very powerful monsters in lieu of a conventional trap). Good luck.

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Ashiel wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Ashiel, a +1 TH per SA dice when sneak attacking would effectively put the Rogue at full BAB+5 when Sneak Attacking. He'd be hitting stuff as reliably as a fighter or Barbarian...when Sneak Attacking.
Where are you getting the +5 over full BAB from Ashiel's post?

Maybe he means when they actually hit the conditions where they would traditionally get Sneak Attack, because that would give them a total of +10 to hit (which 15 BAB +10 to hit would be +25), but that's not really looking at the big picture.

Every martial in core has +20 from BAB and then MASSIVE modifiers to attack rolls thereafter. Barbarians get an extra +4 to hit during a rage and have rage powers that can push it ever higher (before counting courageous weapons pushing it higher). Rangers have quarry every 10 minutes for +4 to hit and auto-confirm, then you can toss instant enemy for +10 to hit and damage, Paladins can easily land +10 to hit or better during a smite and have access to spells like Divine Power (unsanctioned knowledge) and anything you can squeeze in with weapon bonds plus auto crit-confirming with a 1st level spell, and all of those martial classes have a real BAB (+20/+15/+10/+5) and will be hasted, so they are often going to hit with an extra attack or two (A ranger with a +10 Str at 20th level, instant enemy, a +5 weapon, and haste is hitting at +31 on their worst attack before quarry or buffs like heroism or good hope).

I don't think there is a problem with allowing rogues to effectively have a martial's to-hit bonus with roguish weapons only (daggers, rapiers, shortbows, etc). It's certainly no worse than flurry of blows (but truly, what could be worse in any sense of the word?). Rewarding them with bonus accuracy when they further act like rogues seems to me like a good thing, not a bad thing.

And we're again talking about a class who has no spellcasting ability and whose only out of combat utility is easily replaced by a headband of...

I really enjoy those new rogue talents and how Ruthless Attack works. That seems like a much more viable system, and using a dagger (low damage compared to other available weapons) is strengthened in Backstab.

Please apply to Paizo to fix the rogue.

Aelryinth wrote:
Snickersnack wrote:
You're no quoting the abilities/feats you think you are. Got links?

Oh, made them up on the spur of the moment. We're talking about Rogue fixes, right?


Sorry, I thought you were quoting those from somewhere (as if to say, "Morons, take these to make your rogue good!"). I tried looking them up and everything..... lol

You seriously don't need to kill him. Play it our RP style. Go to a bar, everyone get smashed (except for you and the others who know the ring is evil), start a fight between the slayer and someone at the bar (no weapons just nonlethal punches) and when the bar gets into the brawl either knock him out from behind and take it or let him fight everyone on his own.

You could also take it in his "sleep", though elves meditate to rest. Just have someone talk to the paladins at night to keep their attention away from him and someone else has the job of removing it from him.

Fighting someone you play with, with weapons, is not what you want to do. Nonlethal damage is the way to go first if anything.

You're no quoting the abilities/feats you think you are. Got links?

Trueshots wrote:
Hello all, I'm attempting to make a pfs toon that is a 100% grappler. Not concorned with striking to much, more submissions, pins, etc. I built it in heolab as a monk with the grappler archetype. Does anyone think I could come out better with another build? Maybe a fighter type or something. Please brain storm for me if you've got the time. Thanks.

Master of Many Styles monk with Cave Druid levels to get ooze form. Look into it.

davidvs wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
What is wrong with the stealth rules?
Unanswered questions here.

I see two problems with this down at the bottom of the page you linked. First is this:


Why can't a spell caster use the Blur spell as a cheap version of Hide in Plain Sight? Blur grants concealment but does not nullify the other prerequisite for using Stealth: not being observed. (Note, however, that a Shadowdancer or Assassin with Blur could use Stealth, since their Hide in Plain Sight ability does indeed completely nullify the other prerequisite.)

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

The Hide in Plain Sight supernatural ability is contingent on being near dim light. Just because you have Blur on to grant concealment does not give you the ability to hide while observed unless you are near an area of dim light.

Another thing you mention is that dim light is not the same as darkness. Since darkness is indeed a deeper shade of dim light, one could say that in darkness you are in/near dim light. It does not mean that the ability only works near dim light and no other degree of lightless area but rather it can be used in an area within 10ft of dim light or darker. Logic by definition.

dim: adj.
- lacking in brightness
- badly illuminated
- lacking sharpness or clarity of understanding or perception. See Synonyms at dark.
- having weak or indistinct vision

Why not Kata Master monk up to level 4, Inquisitor (up to however many levels you want though I would recommend 5 levels), and Ninja 11 levels?

Deeds and panache will be taken from your Ki pool, there aren't any new deed between level 3 and 7, and most deeds don't require use of panache but do require at least 1 panache point in your ki pool. If you took inquisitor as well, your initiative would boost to 2+ your wis modifier and dex modifiers.

You could very easily ignore getting Inquisitor, however, and just get Kata Master and Ninja, focus on getting high dex and cha, though with inquisitor you could also up your armor to medium armor since neither swashbucker deed or ninja deny you any abilities due to armor. The only thing you would lose is the monk's wisdom bonus to AC, fast movement, and flurry of blows. It's really up to you. More beefy and other abilities with Inquisitor, or less beefy and different abilities of the kata master monk (though you could take inquisitor and still use no armor).

Ashiel wrote:

In my campaign I adjusted sneak attack to work like this.

Sneak attack adds +1 to hit and +1d6 damage with light, one-handed, and ranged weapons (within 30 ft). If you are flanking or your opponent is denied Dex to AC (flat footed, blinded, etc) then you double your sneak attack bonuses against that foe (so +1/+1d6 becomes +2/+2d6 against that foe).

The rogue's SA progression changes from +1d6/2 levels to +1d6/4 levels (so the rogue's top-end damage doesn't change very much but they consistently perform better). The biggest change is that their accuracy with normal hits is much improved and they don't need to rely on Strength to deal respectable damage when not flanking.

For example, if you have a 5th level rogue, you'd have a +2 bonus to hit with any light, one-handed, or ranged weapon (within 30 ft) and deal +2d6 per hit. If you then dove in and flanked an enemy, you'd suddenly have +4 to hit (+6 with flanking) and deal +4d6 damage per hit. So you're rewarded for playing like a rogue while being able to be consistent even when you're not flanking.

In other words, you are rewarded for being tactical and the rogue shines when they get the drop on enemies, rather than being required to be tactical just to reach average.

I like this idea

When my brother runs a campaign, he grants rogues Weapon Finesse and Fast Stealth at first level.

thegreenteagamer wrote:

I do not see what large/strong/often fat has to do with one's ability to avoid a hit.

I DO see how it would be involved in taking a hit, quite easily. Your link did not clarify any merger between AC and HP, but rather simplified it's separation.

But to remain on topic and not go too far off tangent, I don't think rogues should have more HP than monks, though more AC does make sense.

You must have missed my link

Merrian Webster Dictionary wrote:

heavily and powerfully built <a beefy thug>

thegreenteagamer wrote:
Snickersnack wrote:
A monk has no armor yet a rogue should not be beefier than an armorless PC..

Most assuredly. A guy who doesn't wear armor should definitely be able to take a hit as well as a guy who usually the situations where they both are wearing the same amount of armor.

If you notice, I mentioned "beefy" in the context of hit points, not AC. AC is the ability to avoid the hit, not take it.

This is why I equate "beefy" with AC and HP:

To me, they are as one, not separate entities.

A monk has no armor yet a rogue should not be beefier than an armorless PC..

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Maybe if rogues could also have weapon proficiency for guns and get two domains to choose spells from (spells per day based on int) and get heavy armor and full BAB the rogues might feel ok with giving up Trapfinding

Kthulhu wrote:


Worst case scenario - the alternate rogue is actually worse than the CRB rogue.

Will the rogue lose trap finding AND sneak damage??

You know, if we make enough threads about this with good suggestions inside each one they might actually change the rogue..

Atarlost wrote:

raises hand
Actually, I hate the rogue. I think making a skill class makes the game less fun for everyone by forcing other classes to be unskilled. I think the rogue's 3.x trap handling niche encourages the inappropriate use of uninteresting traps to justify the existence of the niche. I think the connotations of the name rogue, particularly its use in D&D and other places as a euphemism for thief encourages antisocial play. I think the stealth skill, particular in combination with the lack of skills for other classes to protect the rogue niche, promotes 1 on 1 gaming while the rest of the table plays Angry Birds. The rogue introduced deliberate spotlight balancing, which I consider toxic and antithetical to a good shared gaming experience, but good for Roxio.

The rogue isn't like the monk or fighter. People are indifferent at worst to them because they don't make the game worse just by existing.

Antisocial means:

-contrary to the laws and customs of society; devoid of or antagonistic to sociable instincts or practices.
-not sociable; not wanting the company of others.

I believe the rogue as a class is not antisocial but instead chaotic alignment is. Please understand critical words you tend to use periodically and how they affect others you may be describing. (These people are not your introverts, but rather your Jeffrey Dahmers and Charles Mansons of the world.

The rogue wasn't "put in" to pathfinder or dnd for any reason you have mentioned. It was a class made so that the Gary Gygax could further increase the suspense and wonder of the world he had created through the use of traps, locks, etc. The class was not made solely for this purpose, however, and was a support melee role in combat (because who wants to go around sneaking all the time just to find traps and not do any fighting?). Over the editions of DnD and changes to the game, like Pathfinder's game mechanics, as well as introduction of new classes and hybrid classes, the rogue has slipped between the cracks as new items, spells, and abilities of other classes have covered the bases that the rogue used to cover.

It's not that it's a bad class or a pointless one. It is a class that has become obsolete due to the fact the class has not gotten any role reconstruction while other classes have taken over different roles the rogue used to have a monopoly over. It's not the rogue's fault. He's always been there, quiet and in the corner, but now the rest of the party has taken notice to the silent creep skulking in the dark and is wondering if he'll ever rejoin the fun.

UncleGeorge wrote:
I dunno what the hell you guys are on about, rogues are great! They're fun to roleplay as a*&@#~#s thief and all arround sociopath! The rogue in my group has been doing quite a lot of damage, its not THAT hard to flank an enemy and get that sweet sweet sneak attack, especially if your team is smart about it and are willing to take a couples of AoO to get in a really good position for the rogue..! Plus, FUN. TO. PLAY. Sometimes you Dpr olympic / munchkins forget about the "fun" part of this game..

The problem with your argument is that it in no way makes the rogue class accountable for your RP skills. You can pick any other class in the game, play it like a rogue, and RP the same as if you were a rogue. You would just limit yourself in appearance by choosing "rogue" armor to look like a thief. I loved playing a rogue before, but now it is sadly pretty pointless.

"You're the rogue, do something!" And my response is always, "I can't get in there for sneak fast enough!" or "I can't go near it because it will wipe me in one hit!"

364. Several swarms of bats attack the party in the night (swarms are never fun) and strange amulets are found in the remains of the swarms. The party later learns the amulets bear the emblem of an assassin vampire clan that takes all bounties.

Why not play a Cave Druid/ Master of Many Styles monk, become a huge ooze, Engulf your enemy (so you can constrict), then constrict 3x a turn also dealing 3x more damage for each constrict letting you deal 108d8 damage a round? You'd be immune to poison, crits, blinds, etc.

Ok, I'm intrigued. Show me your build you're thinking of and exactly how you might use your character in an encounter

Greater Invis, Mass on you and your party. Coerce the dragon to weaken itself, bind itself, then kill it. If your GM doesn't allow that break his table

What if a character is prone on the ground, either by choice or not, and is not grappled or pinned? Do they still get evasion? Had a bad GM who said you lose evasion in this situation even though in RAW it does not specify this anywhere I found

Vivisectionist with one level Knifemaster Rogue. Hellcat Stealth is a great talent to get. Look to get Underhanded, Betrayer, etc as well.

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362. During the night the group is awoken by a strong gust of wind as something flies over the campfire (if applicable) putting it out and soars away into the lightless night. In the morning, the group comes across a Pegasus in a field grazing on grass.

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