AMY?
Uh, this might not be as helpful as you'd hoped but with 20th level PCs, i'm fairly certain "hit it until it stops moving" would work.
Could you clarify if you are looking for the most effective means of killing it without being cheesy? Or perhaps the most flavourful way?
AMY?
What is A MY?
Well, if AM is off the table then I agree with Cheapy. She's a alchemist/monk who can quite litrelly rip the dragons wings right off the poor things body.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/theDragonStyleVivisectionistBeastmorphFeralMutagenAlchemistAnExer ciseInRidiculousness/v5748gbijjjbx/favorites
Watch out for any auto-spacing in there.
Also consider a Bow focused paladin with dragon slaying arrows, I've heard they can give dragons quite the headache...
Edit:- Darn ninjas.
Poison it with dragonsbane?
oh, no RAGELANCEPOUNCE :(
Curses!! Foiled before posting!!
1. Gunslinger for getting through natural armor?
2. Wizard or Sorcerererer focusing on cold spells and puncturing SR?
3. Ninja to run up and blindside it with capstone of "Neener neener neener! You can't see me ever! Hear those rock-filled can noisemakers tied to my ankles? Didn't think so, cause I'm undetectable by anything!" and TWF sneak attack to death?
4. Threesome with cheerleaders?
Wait, wrong thread. >.<
5. Sorcerererer with Summon Monster IX used to summon 1d3 Ice Devils every round for the first 6 rounds? (Each casts Cone of Cold for 15d6 Cold every round. OH! And they're immune to fire, too.)
6. Barbarian to Spell Sunder the effects of any and all of the dragon's protective spells/items and then do massive damage with a lan- err, greatsword?
7. Paladin to keep people from running away from the Frightful Presence, and to make a crunchy snack while everyone else stabs the dragon?
8. Bleeding sneak attack is your friend and will murder it? (See 3.)
9. Wizard with Wish prepared...wait, that's cheating.
10. Called Shot focused [High damage dealing class] with some way of hitting every time? Heartstrike of save or die with success = Con bleed. ^,.,^
I like that dragon-death paladin idea too, I'll have to look into that...
Preparation
1. Take all levels in Wizard. Make sure you're Chaotic Evil.
2. Make sure you learn Ice body and Time Stop... also a few summoning spells.
3. Spend a whole lot of money on Bags of Holding and Liquid Ice.
4. Fill up all of your bags with 2500 cubic feet of water.
Within the dungeon
1. Summon as much creatures as you have Bags of Holding. The faster the creature, the better. Spread the bags between them.
2. Cast Ice Body
3. Cast Time Stop
4. Have your summons fill up the dungeon in equal distances.
5. Seal the entrance of the cave.
6. Have your summons empty the Bags of Holding.
7. When everything is flooded, open up a bottle of Liquid Ice and freeze everything.
8. Burrow through the ice with your new form, and kill everything, or wait for everyone (including your party members and summons) to die of Ice damage.
9. Thaw out.
10. PROFIT!
Some useful tactics
1. Invisible Wall of Stone/Iron/wall of Force/Prismatic Wall right in the dragon's flight path.
2. Druid/Arial Bloodline Sorcerer- Control Winds at tornado strength.
3. Icy Prison/Tomb- Cold effect and Dragons have weak reflex saves.
And for a fun encounter:
Grapple and Pin the dragon with a tetori monk (major fire resistance is useful)
Or you could just go with a hasted + good hope archer paladin smiting rapid shot,many shot, deadly aim, oath against wyrms with a +5 holy dragonbane bow, with bracers of archery, as suggested above. The dragon might last into the second round.
Your summons can't actually when you cast timestop.
Your summons can't actually when you cast timestop.
Followers through Leadership?
They can't actually MOVE at all. Time stop is personal.
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You said you wanted Cheese... so cheese you get. Unless its a special Dragon with immune to mind effects (such as Undead) this is your Cheese...
Terrible Remorse
School enchantment (compulsion) [emotion, mind-affecting]; Level bard 3, cleric/oracle 4, inquisitor 3, sorcerer/wizard 4
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target 1 living creature
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will partial (see text); Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
You fill a target with such profound remorse that it begins to harm itself. Each round, the target must save or deal 1d8 points of damage + its Strength modifier to itself using an item held in its hand or with unarmed attacks. If the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow for 1 round, during which time it can take no actions and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends.
Errata
- Official Update: In the description of the terrible remorse spell, change the final sentence to read as follows:
"If the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow for 1 round, during which time it can take no actions and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends."
Even after the Errata... its a Major controller... even if it saves it loses a round. The Spell then ends. next Round Cast it agains... and again and again and again...The min amont you can cast this spell as a 20th Sorc is 6 times... with High Charisma even more... then let the melee guys beat on it as it reflects on all the bad things it has done (I imagine alot as a Red Dragon).
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Alternately... (again unless its a Special Dragon)... Dragons have very low Dex.
Ancient Red Dragons stats
- Str 39, Dex 8, Con 27, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 20
Touch of Gracelessness
School transmutation; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range touch
Targets creature touched
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fortitude partial; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
With a single touch, you reduce a creature to a fumbling clown.
The target takes a penalty to its Dexterity equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). This penalty cannot drop the target's Dexterity score below 1.
In addition, if the subject moves more than half its speed, it falls prone. If the subject flies, its maneuverability is reduced by one step (perfect maneuverability becomes good, good becomes average, and so on).
A successful Fortitude save halves the penalty to Dexterity and negates the possibility of falling prone or the reduction to fly maneuverabilities.
Metamagics
-Max
-Emp.
-Quicken
with the first round of Double casting you should have the Red Dragon dex to the max drop of a score of 1 (even if he saves).
Then cast this...
Polar Ray
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 8; Domain ice 9
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a white ceramic cone or prism)
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect ray
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
A blue-white ray of freezing air and ice springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 25d6) and 1d4 points of Dexterity drain.
That will Drain him to 0 Dex...
A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).
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Any dragon worth its salt will have Resist Energy if not Protection from Energy.
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Any dragon worth its salt will have Resist Energy if not Protection from Energy.
Protection from energy grants temporary immunity to the type of energy you specify when you cast it (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). When the spell absorbs 12 points per caster level of energy damage (to a maximum of 120 points at 10th level), it is discharged.
Protection from energy overlaps (and does not stack with) resist energy. If a character is warded by protection from energy and resist energy, the protection spell absorbs damage until its power is exhausted.
OK... 3 choices... (off top of my head)
1. Cast Polar Ray twice...(or any high level cold descriptor spell) the first will get rid of the protection. on the 3rd round cast it again and were back at Dex - 0.
2. Elemental Bloodline
- Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to match the type of your bloodline. This also changes the spell's type to match the type of your bloodline.
Change the energy type and you still do damage and the Dex drain still happens. Now were back to 2 rounds.
3. Greater Dispel magic... at 20th level you should have no problem beating the DC's and take down all his protections the first rounds. That takes us back to 3 rd take down.
Out of the book Red Dragon spell list
- Protection from E not on it... / resist is but you will blow by that with Polar Ray...
Spells Known (CL 15th, concentration +20)
7th (4/day)—limited wish, spell turning
6th (6/day)—antimagic field, contingency, greater dispel magic
5th (7/day)—polymorph, telekinesis (DC 20), teleport, wall of force
4th (7/day)—fear (DC 19), fire shield, greater invisibility, stoneskin
3rd (7/day)—dispel magic, displacement, haste, tongues
2nd (7/day)—alter self, detect thoughts (DC 17), misdirection (DC 17), resist energy, see invisibility
1st (8/day)—alarm, grease (DC 16), magic missile, shield, true strike
0 (at will)—arcane mark, bleed, light, magehand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic
Same source penalties shouldn't stack, just like bonuses, you take the higher, so the double casting of touch of gracelessness is no go.
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Same source penalties shouldn't stack, just like bonuses, you take the higher, so the double casting of touch of gracelessness is no go.
I am not sure that is right... i am on my smart phone so I will look into that later...
but if its a question of take down.
Dex - 8
1d6 + 5 =
Max- 11 dmg + emp =16 Dex dmg. S.T. for Half still leaves Dragon at a min of 1 Dex, cast twice was for chance of failure or SR accident.
Empower Spell
- Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.
Touch attacks. Always touch attacks against big critters. If you want more cheese, add Con damage. Taken together, this means undead. Tons and tons of undead. Apply according to taste.
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reach quickened touch of gracelessness and reach calcific touch. does a minimum of 4 dex damage per round and very likely more. It will take at most two rounds to do 8 dex damage, which will reduce the dragon to dex 0 and thanks to calcific touch petrify it.
maximize both and you're guaranteed to petrify the dragon in one round.
NICE...
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reach quickened touch of gracelessness and reach calcific touch. does a minimum of 4 dex damage per round and very likely more. It will take at most two rounds to do 8 dex damage, which will reduce the dragon to dex 0 and thanks to calcific touch petrify it.
maximize both and you're guaranteed to petrify the dragon in one round.
Then cast a permanency shrink item on it and use it as a lawn ornament :)
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reach quickened touch of gracelessness and reach calcific touch. does a minimum of 4 dex damage per round and very likely more. It will take at most two rounds to do 8 dex damage, which will reduce the dragon to dex 0 and thanks to calcific touch petrify it.
maximize both and you're guaranteed to petrify the dragon in one round.
Then cast a permanency shrink item on it and use it as a lawn ornament :)
I wanna play in your World... I can see a Cottage, its yard full of Exotic and Rare Lawn Ornaments.
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Well... it wasn't a very old dragon, but it was an adult Umbral. The death came from being mauled by a pair of pit/war dogs, charged by a boar (with a nearly knocked out dwarf on its back) and then punched by an enlarged half orc monk, then had a "flurry of blows" to the back end area. Yes... killed a dragon by punching it.
You could always try that...
Hi there, looking for some advice as to what could be the best build for bringing down an Ancient Red Dragon. We're going to be doing a short dungeon crawl through an ancient red dragon lair. So we will still have to fight minions. Our DM has stated we can make 20th level PC's using any of the Pathfinder books. Anyone made a build like this before? I'd appreciate any help, thanks! oh, no RAGELANCEPOUNCE :(
How many will you be in the party?
General advice:Melee dudes should have a plan B if they need to fly, see Invisibility, etc.
Casters should pre cast buffs and use summons, and have quicken rods. Quicken summon monster IX is rather nice. If you can pre cast Summon remember to buff the: Mage armor, bless weapon, Align Weapon, Heroism, etc,
Don't cast cure spells in battle unless it's quicken spell. At this level quicken mass CLW or mass CMW will probably be pretty useless.
Quicken mass heal is always nice so is quicken + reach heal.
Breath or Life is can come in handy.
True seeing is a nice spell. Cast it on the others in the party as well.
De-buffs are nice. Greater dispel magic is one of the best. Bards got nice de-buffs as well.
Stay away from any advice dealing with taking out the Dragon using low level spells or save or suck/die spells.
Stay away from any advice dealing with a special tactic or a highly specialized build for just fighting the dragon in one special way.
Use divination and knowledge skills before you go on your mission so you know what you are going to face.
archers are awesome: the aforementioned paladin would be great.
An alternative could be a ranger with favored enemy dragon (+10 bonus to hit and damage).
What makes it really great is the named bullet spell (and the greater version of it).
Take spell penetration/greater (at this level you can spare a couple of feats), buy a few pearls of power and a strand of prayer beads (with bead of karma) and cast before the fight as many of these spells as possible. Add gravity bow for more fun.
Buy of course a +5 dragonbane holy composite longbow suited for your strength (which should be around +10 at least).
You will be consistently passing the dragon's SR (1d20+25 vs SR 33 for a CR 22 great red wyrm) and, for every spells that does so, every arrow will be doing 2d6+2d6+(2d6+10+5+10+other petty bonuses)*3+40 damage. This means around 50 points of damage if you fail the SR check and more than 150 if you pass it: every arrow will be hitting, since you target a touch AC of 0. Oh, on a natural critical hit even the +40 to dmg will be multiplied: such an arrow would do at least 270 points of damage.
You should be very unlucky to not bring the dragon down in one round since you shall be shooting at least 6 arrow (7 with haste, possibly more if you take the greater snap shot line and the dragon decide to pass through your threatened area).
That said, improving your initiative and perception checks is good and in case you end up inside the threatened area of the dragon the point blank master feat is a must.
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Hi there, looking for some advice as to what could be the best build for bringing down an Ancient Red Dragon. We're going to be doing a short dungeon crawl through an ancient red dragon lair. So we will still have to fight minions. Our DM has stated we can make 20th level PC's using any of the Pathfinder books. Anyone made a build like this before? I'd appreciate any help, thanks! oh, no RAGELANCEPOUNCE :(
SylvanSoul 15 minutes ago
The party will consist of 4 PC's. We will however be fighting a CR 26 red dragon, so we'll need to do quite a lot of damage, and soak it up too. Thanks for all the suggestions so far.
A CR 26 is a Looooong way from an Ancient Red Dragon.
Ancient Red Dragon CR 19
XP 204,800 / CE Gargantuan dragon
Great Wyrm Red Dragon CR 22
XP 615,000 / CE Colossal dragon
Here is a closer example of what you might be facing...
Choral the Conqueror (Advanced Great Wyrm Red Dragon)
Choral is a fortress-sized red dragon with ambitions of taking over a large part of the world.
Choral the Conqueror CR 25
XP 1,638,400 / Advanced great wyrm red dragon
CE Colossal dragon (fire)
Init +4; Senses dragon sense, smoke vision; Perception +29
Aura fire, frightful presence (360 ft., DC 32)
DEFENSE
AC 43, touch 2, flat-footed 43 (+41 natural, –8 size)
hp 507 (29d12+319)
Fort +27, Ref +16, Will +26
DR 20/magic; Immune fire, paralysis, sleep; SR 36
Weakness vulnerability to cold
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., fly 250 ft. (clumsy)
Melee bite +47 (4d8+27/19–20), 2 claws +47 (4d6+18), 2 wings +45 (2d8+9), tail slap +45 (4d6+27)
Space 30 ft.; Reach 25 ft. (30 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks breath weapon (70-ft. cone, DC 35, 24d10 fire), crush, incinerate, manipulate flames, melt stone, tail sweep
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 29th, concentration +37)
At will--detect magic, discern location, find the path, pyrotechnics (DC 20), suggestion (DC 21), wall of fire
Spells Known (CL 19th, concentration +27)
9th (4/day)--shapechange, time stop
8th (7/day)--iron body, polar ray, polymorph any object (DC 26)
7th (7/day)-—greater teleport, limited wish, spell turning
6th (7/day)--antimagic field, contingency, greater dispel magic
5th (7/day)--polymorph, telekinesis (DC 23), teleport, wall of force
4th (8/day)--fear (DC 22), fire shield, greater invisibility, stoneskin
3rd (8/day)--dispel magic, displacement, haste, tongues
2nd (8/day)--alter self, detect thoughts, misdirection, resist energy, see invisibility
1st (8/day)--alarm, grease (DC 19), magic missile, shield, true strike
0th (at will)--arcane mark, bleed, light, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic
STATISTICS
Str 47, Dex 10, Con 33, Int 26, Wis 27, Cha 26
Base Atk +29; CMB +55; CMD 55 (59 vs. trip)
Feats Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Greater Vital Strike, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Stunning Critical, Vital Strike
Skills Appraise +29, Bluff +29, Diplomacy +29, Fly +29, Intimidate +29, Knowledge (arcana) +29, Knowledge (history), +29 Knowledge (local) +29, Knowledge (nobility) +29, Perception +29, Sense Motive +29, Spellcraft +29, Stealth +29, Survival +29
I'd suggest a Monk-Barbarian with the Vital Strike line and Furious Finish.
Using a Giant Hide armor, and having a party member cast Strong Jaw on the character, then you are ready to deal a weapon damage of 384 (48d8 maximized due to Furious Finish). In itself that kills an ancient red dragon, and adding str bonus, PA and AoMF, it might be enough for the advanced one.
Killing the beast with a single fist strike is the only way to go.
Hmm. Perhaps a gun based paladin instead, with that insane amount of armour aiming for his touch ac would give a huge increase too damage. A level 20 dual wielding pistol paladin could throw out in the area of 9 touch ac gun attacks a turn. That's without using a double barreled pistol.
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Everyone keeps recommending spells, but I keep thinking you're likely to have trouble with its saving throws. So be sure to pick spells that help even if the dragon makes its save.
Also, this may be stupidly obvious, but initiative boosters all around - Reactionary trait is +2, and Improved Initiative is another +4.
Assuming you can buy whatever magic items you want, things that give you (and your other equipment!) fire resistance would be obvious choices.
Incorporeal undead able to attack from behind rock walls, etc. Our necro did this to flush an underground foe into the open, but overdid the attack, rendering it too weak to exit. I had to climb down and slit the po' thing's throat.
The party will consist of 4 PC's. We will however be fighting a CR 26 red dragon, so we'll need to do quite a lot of damage, and soak it up too. Thanks for all the suggestions so far.
four PC vs a CR 26 Red dragon sounds Harsh.
Best advice I can give you:Summons will be helpful.
Plan ahead.
Have a plan B (back up weapon, more spells in case it start with dispeling your buffs)
Pre cast buffs and pre cast prtective spells.
Everyone keeps recommending spells, but I keep thinking you're likely to have trouble with its saving throws. So be sure to pick spells that help even if the dragon makes its save.
Also, this may be stupidly obvious, but initiative boosters all around - Reactionary trait is +2, and Improved Initiative is another +4.
Assuming you can buy whatever magic items you want, things that give you (and your other equipment!) fire resistance would be obvious choices.
+1.
I would focus on pre cast spells such as barkskin, heroism, protection from energy, resist energy, Magic circle against evil, bless weapon, haste, fly, freedom of movement, true seeing, long strider, heroes feat, etc. Even death ward might be nice.Remember that casting protection from energy and resist energy might be a good idea. If it drains all protection from energy you still have 30 resist energy.
Cleric, druid, Oracle should focus on battle and pre buff / pre protection.
Only healing spell during battle should be heal or mass heal. In case on a heal spell it should be a quicken spell. Gloves of storing + Meta magi rod + still spell.
It might sunder your weapons so have more than one good weapon.
All characters should probably have quick draw as a feat.
Again:
Summons will be helpful
Plan ahead.
The dragon's Breath Weapon DC will probably be about 40, 49 at the most if the GM decides to focus on it (Con bumps and feats). If you don't have a +30 or higher reflex save, don't bother trying to get Evasion (though Improved Evasion is still good).
The Ranger gets a little more dangerous if you can scout ahead of the party to designate the dragon as your Quarry. Improved Quarry gives you +4 to hit and you automatically confirm criticals. Once combat is started though, you're better off just attacking.
Favored Terrain boosts initiative too, so Underground +8 with a good Dex score means you probably go first.
A ranger can cast a ridiculous number of Resist Energies on himself, preparing for any modifications to the breath weapon or other nasty surprises. Gravity Bow is useful, but with Improved Evasion, Resist Energy gives you a lot of staying power. Against an unmodded Ancient Red, you'll take about 25-30 damage on a failed save.
Oh, if you're allowed to take Leadership, a Wizard/Sorcerer who's only job is to cast Enervation on it twice would be helpful (more if he survives). One is empowered and maximized (1d4/2+4) and the other is quickened (1d4). At minimum, that's -6 to his rolls, max -10. It's a touch spell and instantaneous, so it can't be dispelled and should land, make him an elf and take the spell penetration feats and he has a decent chance of punching through SR. Only down side is the range, so he'll probably end up toast very quickly. It's okay that he's a 1 trick pony, he isn't supposed to survive.
I have to think anything with firearms is going to have an advantage, with the low touch ac. For something no one's suggested yet, how about an inquisitor? Bane's adding 4d6 to each attack, with ranged attacks you're not too MAD, just wis and dex, if you pump both of them you're going to have the one of the best initiative modifiers possible and if you get your wis high enough you've even got a chance the dragon doesn't make the fort save against your true judgement. Take fire domain and you've got fire immunity. In fact anything with domains, take fire domain for the immunity, or some other class feature that gives it.
Step 1) Have your part item crafter make some dust of sneezing and choking.
Step 2) Get a brave fool to throw it in the dragon's face.
Step 3) Profit!
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Step 1) Have your part item crafter make some dust of sneezing and choking.
Step 2) Get a brave fool to throw it in the dragon's face.
Step 3) Profit!
But... But... the dragon will sneeze FIRE!!!
Ok, so this build isn't mine(can't remember exactly where it is form), but it's AWSOME:
So you'll want a sorcerer(draconic) 15/ DD 4/ alchemist 1.
Grab power attack, skill focus(knowledge planes) and the eldritch heritage feats with abyssal. Try and get multiattack. It helps.
Stats: 18 14 14 7 7 14, human with +2 strength, level advancement str
Belt of physical might str and con +6, amulet of mighty fists +5, headband car and int +6
FORM OF THE DRAGON III
18 base +2 racial +5 level +6 belt +10 FotD +4 DD +6 eldritch heritage +4 mutagen. 55. Total. Strength. That's a +22, btw.
Attacks are gonna be +33(12 bab 22 str 5 amulet -2 size -4 PA) primary and +28(or 31with multiattack) secondary:
Bite +33 (2d8 + 50), 2 claws +33(2d6 + 50), 2 wings + 28[31] (1d8 + 18) and a tail slap +33(2d6 + 50). Average =274 PER ROUND.
Dragons have dr/magic, but it doesn't matter(AoMF), and An ancient has ~370 hp and 38 ac so in 2 rounds he should be done.
Um, this is a 6 year old post.
Um, this is a 6 year old post.
Well jeez dude you didn't have to be so mean about it. I'm a potato. Reading skills ain't so sharp
PD
To kill a Dragon? We 'killed' our GM with Blazing Saddles jokes. No, really! He had a minor heart attack! Paddles and everything. Folks like us should always play with EMTs at the table, but we cheated with a ER doc and trauma nurse as well. They tried for me a year plus later with Redd Foxx and Richard Pryor jokes. Fortunately, I had heard most.
Get your Bard to Henny Youngman the dragon till it drops, then close in with Rodney Dangerfield for the kill!