I understand the desire to make Cha more relevant, but seriously. A ninjas Ki should be based off of Wis if only to allow for a more integrated multi-class combination with monks.
You could even have a ninja trick that let's them use Wis instead of Cha for things like disguise, bluff, and UMD (that one might be too much).
I've always enjoyed multiclassing, even though it is horribly non-optimal and currently a ninja monk is just really bad. Couldn't we have just one really good multiclass combo? Please
Edit: I posted this in the wrong thread and am now replacing it here. I realize others have brought up this issue already, but I wanted to give special attention to the current multiclass fail between monk/ninja. Thank you.
You could even have a ninja trick that let's them use Wis instead of Cha for things like disguise, bluff, and UMD (that one might be too much).
This is a good idea, although I'd like to see it reversed.
Have wisdom be the norm, and allow a ninja trick to base your Ki off charisma.
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Doesn't this:
"If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool."
...mean that the ninja can use WIS instead of CHA as soon as he picks up his monk ki pool?
Doesn't this:
"If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool."
...mean that the ninja can use WIS instead of CHA as soon as he picks up his monk ki pool?
Hmm, I'm glad they put that in. Though, the one problem with this is that the saving throw DCs against ninja abilities are still Cha based, and a lot of monk abilities will still be Wis based (AC bonus and saving throw DCs). Multiclassers will basically have to choose between having bad ninja abilities or bad monk abilities.
I concur. Base ki of of Wisdom.
I'm entirely in favor of Ki being charisma based. Charisma gives the class a flavor separate from the monk, while drawing on an existing mechanic. It allows the ninja to perform basic "face" abilities better than the monk, including intimidate & bluff- which are right up the ninja's alley.
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I can imagine Charisma being applicable to Ki pool.
It is a "...measure of their unnatural "lifeforce."" (CRB page 17)
Makes sense that your "lifeforce" would affect your Ki pool.
EDIT: especially since the Ki pool is described as "...supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats." (CRB page 59)
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I think that another reason for charisma-based Ki is Will-saves or how rogues have to really struggle to have them and ninjas don't. See, with how the rogue class is described and what kind of abilities we ascribe to the traditional thiefy fellow, Rogues do require a wide variety of stats, some of them really high since they get no temporary to-hit boni like every other d8 class. This means that they stay fairly mad, requiring Con Dex and Str, Intelligence for some class abilities and prestige class abilities, Charisma in case they want to UMD and Bluff(and who would not?) and finally Wisdom, since they have a low Will save.
Now, imagine the special abilities of the ninja would run on Wisdom instead of Charisma. Would they leave Rogues crying back home? Perhaps not, but Ninjas would cover yet another Rogue weakness. Having nice defenses against mental effects and a great synergy with monks and inquisitors, something the rogue could do with. An effortless high-Will sneak attacker/skill monkey is something I would take to an Adventure Path over the super-MAD rogue any day.
Must agree with this one. All Ki abilities should be based on Wisdom. Ki is a mystic ability of having the mind and body in tune with each other. Definitely wisdom in my opinion.
Hmm, I'm glad they put that in. Though, the one problem with this is that the saving throw DCs against ninja abilities are still Cha based, and a lot of monk abilities will still be Wis based (AC bonus and saving throw DCs). Multiclassers will basically have to choose between having bad ninja abilities or bad monk abilities."...ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total.... The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool."Doesn't this mean that the ninja can use WIS instead of CHA as soon as he picks up his monk ki pool?
Yeah, but it really just means you can focus on one stat over the other, and have level-relevant DCs for offensive abilities which trigger saves... While gaining full usage of Ki-USING abilities which don´t have DCs in the first place... Which is alot of abilities.
Note that this also makes Monk/Ninja/Sorceror multiclassing much more viable :-)
Question: Shouldn´t the Monk Extra Attack ability be mutually exclusive with the Ninja Extra Attack ability?
I vote for Wisdom. When I think of a ninja I don't picture a charismatic character in my head. Maybe it's because I'm too much influenced by Shadow, the ninja character from FFIV. :P
Well here's my 2 cents
Wisdom does make sense for the Ki pool as a sense of ones self and awareness, but so does Charisma for the ninja is also one that does Misinformation (Primary Tool), Gathering Information (through Diplomacy skill), and Exerting the force of their personality and will to frighten their foes.
I for one find this current match of Charisma over Wisdom for the Ki pool a match to the ninja's methods of operation historically to work with the Current Pathfinder system.
To really understand why Paizo did it the way they did, just ask them; "why did you use charisma over Wisdom for the Ninja's Ki pool?" and you'll get your answer, just don't call it a crappy mechanic design without asking yourself "Why did they do it this way" and see if you can come up with an answer, Or were you hoping that it was a carbon copy of the 3.5 ninja from complete adventurer with rogue talents added to it.
Note that if you wanted to add more realism to the ninja from history, they would of had various types of martial arts and intel training; taijustsu (unarmed combat), Naginatajutsu (polearms), Yarijutsu (spears), Cho Ho (intel and espionage), Kusarigama (Chain weapons), Shinobi Iri (Stealth and infiltration), Seishin (spirital refinement), and there is still more skills.
Heck the Kunoichi (female ninja) even had miko (priestess) training and were taught a specific Taijutsu just for them.
And now I end my 2 cents
What if Ninja get to use CHA for Will Saves? Or even ALL Saves?
That could be an interesting way to reduce some of their Multi-Stat dependency (which is a weakness),
which in turn allows their over-powered aspects to be toned down... Hmmm...
I want my 3.5 complete adventurer Ninja back Ki Step Sudden Strike OWNED!
Ki pool = wisdom for god sake read the WIS info block
Kis wisdom is buff to saves. NOW that's unbalanced compaerd to rogue.
And if you make the Ninja Cha-based, you can multiclass paladin to create the G%$~@$n Batman! :D
I think I'm good with ki=Wis camp; but I dont feel strongly about it.
Ki points through charisma are fine, IMO, and create another balancing factor for stat allocation, which itself helps balance the Ninja against the Rogue.
I love that Ki is through Charisma. It makes them less mad, since they need charisma anyway for disguise and many other skills. Flipping out and killing people and stealth are not the only purviews of ninja. Hiding in plane sight involves beging able to hide your true nature to those arround you, ie Bluff and Disguise. IMO those are the most important skills and abilities for the ninja to have and be able to do. Removing charisma from ki only serves to make them more mad.
Besides, the traditional black clothing that ninja are known for wearing was from them being involved in theater troops. It was the costume for the people who were supposed to be ignored because they were doing scenery stuff. Theater troops were one way ninja moved arround. I would hate to see them unable to fit into historical roles because the MAD restricted them from it.
I still like taking Bard to be a ninja.
In another thread (located here:[url=http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/ultimateCombatPlaytest/ninja/firstThoughtOnNinja&page=3[/url]) Mr. Bulmahn said, "Cha will always be an important stat to the Ninja. Remember that part of the ninja's role was infiltration, which often included disguises and pretending to be someone you're not. Seeing as it is also a measure of your force of will, it does make some sense as a Ki stat. We are, as usual, open to debate on the issue. I know that MAD is a problem with the ninja at the moment."
Addressing the topic of this thread, I'll first say that I agree with many of the pro-Charisma arguments in this thread and then I'll say what I have said in another thread regarding Charisma being the attribute responsible for the ki pool:
I for one am very happy with Charisma as the ninja's ki stat, even if it does cause MAD. I like that they are like the sorcerer to the monk's wizard. I think another class that uses ki needs to be different and I agree with Mr. Bulmahn on how ki and charisma relate. Ninjas are more about misdirection in any story I have seen with them, whether they are mystical or not.
Charisma isn't all "Look at me!" It takes stage presence to get everyone to look where you want them to and that is the same as charisma. Any story involving a ninja that I have ever enjoyed involved a ninja who spoke and didn't wear a mask or jammies. The mask and jammies are not really historical anyway. They were feudal versions of what would be special forces today. If there is anyone in the modern day that would have to be MAD, it's them.
Further and more importantly to me and the games I play in, I can finally have a high charisma femme fatale bodyguard or assassin working for the big, bad guy with a hidden weapon ninja trick that can do more with that charisma - almost literally making it into a weapon (or even play one as a PC and not just as an NPC). I hope that doesn't get changed. Please change something else before changing that. It is actually the one thing I like best about this version of the ninja. That and the hidden weapon ninja trick (which should totally be made available to the rogue also).
stuff
Well said.
Furthermore, their differentiation it's good for RPG. As I stated elsewere, Monk Ki is Wis based because they seek for balance, inner peace and tranquillity. Ninja Ki is Cha-based because they seek revenge, self-affirmation, self-perfection and similar stuff.
People will kill me bu think in this term:
Monk = Jedi Ninja = Sith
*runs for cover*
Personally, I was pleased to see that Cha was the chosen stat to increase the Ki pool of the ninja class. As someone else pointed out, it takes stage presence to make people look where you want, and Wis doesn't do that. I also like the idea of Ki not just being connected with one stat - sort of a Yin/Yang thing. One is a passive force (Wis: focused on the within; an introvert) while the other is an active force (Cha: focused on the without; extrovert). Not a perfect analogy, I know, but Cha makes far more sense to me for the ninja than Wis.
Just my opinion.
Shameless copypaste from a post in another thread:
One could think it this way: Monks seek for insight and inner peace, so their Ki is Wisdom based. Ninjas become ninjas for self-affirmation (revenge, affiliation to a clan..) so their Ki is different, Charisma based - which is quite cool, because make them slightly different from Monks like Sorcerers are from Wizards (roleplaying hook!).
Moreover, a mechanical reason: one could play the Ninja as a kung fu movie black dressed dude, and that's fine.
But one could play a Ninja as a almost always disguised spy and assassin, which you recognize as ninja when it's too late. In that case having the class support your Cha-based skills is very nice :)
all of us on another thread think the ninjas ki should be based on con because ninjas are about fortitude and not seek for insight and inner peace
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the idea of a ninja having any kind of charisma is ridiculous.... yeah, put my vote in the Wisdom pile... (i agree with the OP that ninja is a great way for a monk to multiclass, so base ki on Wis all the time to allow for smooth multiclassing... for abilities that usually rely on Cha, like disguise, include a bonus akin to the rogue's bonus to disable device / perception vs traps to compensate for the ninja's low Cha; i.e. rogues are not always known for their wisdom, so when they rolled the search (int) skill into perception (wis) skill, Pathfinder had the excellent idea to have a rogue compensation system based on rogue level... just do the same for ninjas and disguise!)
I do not understand this opinion that ninjas should not have high charismas. What examples is this opinion coming from? To me a decent charisma is absolutely neccesarry to a type of character who uses deception and misdirection as a tactical methodology. A class level bonus could certainly apply to those skills, perhaps even a wisdom based bonus added to skill bonus representing an enlightened perspective added to more mundane uses of bluffs and feints. But to say that ninjas don't need charisma is flat out contrary to how I view them and the abilities. Can anyone provide an example of what they mean by low charisma ninjas?
If one wishes to make a monk/ninja and has a higher Wisdom than Charisma, one can simply choose Wisdom as the ability connected with the ki pool as soon as the second class ki pool ability is gained.
Quoting from the ninja class:
If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of any class she possesses that grants a ki pool.
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I do not understand this opinion that ninjas should not have high charismas. What examples is this opinion coming from? To me a decent charisma is absolutely neccesarry to a type of character who uses deception and misdirection as a tactical methodology. A class level bonus could certainly apply to those skills, perhaps even a wisdom based bonus added to skill bonus representing an enlightened perspective added to more mundane uses of bluffs and feints. But to say that ninjas don't need charisma is flat out contrary to how I view them and the abilities. Can anyone provide an example of what they mean by low charisma ninjas?
I'm going to use three broad categories to try and capture the disparate meanings and traits of the ninja. Non-charismatic ninja are a product of more modern depictions of ninja as ultimate warriors who don't need to misdirect because they can actually move through shadows, go invisible, and kill everyone in the room in an orgy of decapitations.
The 'historical' ninja is an infiltrator, saboteur, liar and spy. They wear disguises. They could be anyone. They deal in information. Often they are not true fighters at all. This is why their 'means of warfare' is characterized by such weapons as the shuriken and the smoke-bomb: they use dishonorable, distracting weapons to immobilize or hinder so they can escape. Their assassinations are often suicide runs or accomplished through poison and underhanded means. Example: legend has it that Uesugi Kenshin, a daimyo of some renown in the mid-1500's, was killed by a ninja who hid under the latrine, waiting for the chance to stab upward at Kenshin when he was using the toilet. It's more likely that he died of a heart attack or age-related ailment, but that sort of endurance and backstabbing was part of the expectation.
The 'folklore' ninja is given many supernatural powers, thanks to stories and kabuki theater. This sort of ninja can take on animal shapes, split into multiple bodies, make illusions, and use neat things like hang-gliders. It is believed that some of these stories were just misinformation and fear-mongering intended to build the ninja legend and make the lives of real ninja easier. This sort of ninja seems like a good candidate to have Charisma-driven ki ... and it would be, except that this is also the 'wisest' of the three categories, I feel, since it is the sort of ninja most entangled with religion and mysticism.
Both of these contrast with the more 'fantastical' ninja of popular culture. Someone who wears black or else something fanciful, is unstoppable in a fight, may move literally through shadows and even bend shadows if they desire. This is the realm of the film Ninja Assassin, the more recent Ninja Gaiden video games, the anime film Ninja Scroll and even such affectionate parody as the Ninja-Burger RPG. This sort of thing also got out of hand and gave us unacceptable extremes such as Naruto. But that is an argument for another time and place. The point is this: these are the ninjas that -do not speak-. They are perfectly silent, always professional. Charisma doesn't enter into things when you can kill someone without a sound and disappear without a trace. Disguise, a staple of the kabuki ninja and the historical ninja, is fully replaced by invisibility and perfect stealth. Unbreakable willpower is another element of these sorts.
The point is, of these three imaginings of the ninja, the first does not actually get a ki-pool and may be represented by the rogue quite well. The second and third have supernatural tricks, though the second is less martially inclined than the third. I would argue that both categories are more properly wisdom-driven: knowledge of nature, self-discipline, and mystic insight are all hallmarks of these kinds of stories.
I argue that if we must have a ninja alt-class or archetype in Pathfinder, than I want it to draw more heavily on the mystical ninja of folklore and popular culture. Otherwise it's just a rogue. So if nothing else, keep ki associated with wisdom for consistency's sake. It's late and I'm sounding like a broken record, so I'll stop.
Sidenote: Only some examples of the 'fantastical' ninja can be said to be motivated by power, revenge, etc. The rest are mysterious, unknown, work for someone who hired them, or otherwise immune to scrutiny about their motivations. I feel Charisma-fueled powers make a poor fit in these cases as well.
Ki points through charisma are fine, IMO, and create another balancing factor for stat allocation, which itself helps balance the Ninja against the Rogue.
+1
And I don't think the Ninja suffers from MAD.Char 12 is enough and there have been a playtest here on the forum where the Ninja starts with char 10 and did fine.
A lot of classes sufers from MAD. Bards, Monks, Clerics, etc. Even barbarians have a problem.
Wizards and rogues are exceptions.
As JB said: "Cha will always be an important stat to the Ninja. Remember that part of the ninja's role was infiltration, which often included disguises and pretending to be someone you're not."
so I agreee with Anburaid
I do not understand this opinion that ninjas should not have high charismas. What examples is this opinion coming from? To me a decent charisma is absolutely neccesarry to a type of character who uses deception and misdirection as a tactical methodology
But I don't understand why they sould get a bonus to char skills or feints. The rogue dosn't and the bard doesn't.
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Non-charismatic ninja are a product of more modern depictions of ninja as ultimate warriors who don't need to misdirect because they can actually move through shadows, go invisible, and kill everyone in the room in an orgy of decapitations.
...and that's the kind of ninja most people would want to play I think (as opposed to your spymaster / super bard ninja version)
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Non-charismatic ninja are a product of more modern depictions of ninja as ultimate warriors who don't need to misdirect because they can actually move through shadows, go invisible, and kill everyone in the room in an orgy of decapitations....and that's the kind of ninja most people would want to play I think (as opposed to your spymaster / super bard ninja version)
You can, play a fighter/mage, and dress him in black.
Or just play a Swordsage.
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And if a fighter-mage or swordsage covers the one type of ninja and the rogue covers the other, than clearly there is no need for a ninja class. Right?
The counterargument in this case seems to be that the ninja alt-class or archetype delivers a suite of class features that makes playing some sort of ninja easier, more unique and satisfying. I'll be more satisfied if the product gives me the shadow-warrior mystical ninja than if it rehashes ground that the rogue has down well.
And if a fighter-mage or swordsage covers the one type of ninja and the rogue covers the other, than clearly there is no need for a ninja class. Right?
Right. I don't understand why peolpe wants a ninja. You can build one now using fighter/shadowdancer or fighter/rogue or fighter/bard or monk/shadowdancer or fighter/bard or whatever.
As I see it clearly there is no need for a ninja class.Buty if people wants one. Find. Jason said:
"Cha will always be an important stat to the Ninja. Remember that part of the ninja's role was infiltration, which often included disguises and pretending to be someone you're not. Seeing as it is also a measure of your force of will, it does make some sense as a Ki stat. We are, as usual, open to debate on the issue. I know that MAD is a problem with the ninja at the moment."
So it is a char character. Use char.
edit:
if this had been a bard play test people would have screamed: we don't want char as a casting stat. MAD, MAD. We want int as a casting stat (or nwis). People just don't care about the role playing aspct of this role playing ghame, they just wantv to go meshuggah on everything.
I don't see how Wisdom makes any more sense for Ninja than people say Charisma does. In fact, it makes less sense to me. Ninja are not, in most any instance I've personally encountered, noted as a rule for being wise. Quick? Sure. Devious? Certainly. Sneaky? Absolutely. Wise? Not so much. There are certainly instances of wise ninja, but they're almost exclusively "elder ninja" (Splinter from TMNT, the Kages from Naruto, Eg Shen from Big Trouble in Little China, etc), and presumably that wisdom comes from age and experience, not from being a ninja.
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I think that another reason for charisma-based Ki is Will-saves or how rogues have to really struggle to have them and ninjas don't. See, with how the rogue class is described and what kind of abilities we ascribe to the traditional thiefy fellow, Rogues do require a wide variety of stats, some of them really high since they get no temporary to-hit boni like every other d8 class. This means that they stay fairly mad, requiring Con Dex and Str, Intelligence for some class abilities and prestige class abilities, Charisma in case they want to UMD and Bluff(and who would not?) and finally Wisdom, since they have a low Will save.
Now, imagine the special abilities of the ninja would run on Wisdom instead of Charisma. Would they leave Rogues crying back home? Perhaps not, but Ninjas would cover yet another Rogue weakness. Having nice defenses against mental effects and a great synergy with monks and inquisitors, something the rogue could do with. An effortless high-Will sneak attacker/skill monkey is something I would take to an Adventure Path over the super-MAD rogue any day.
Forgive me, but for the life of me, I can't seem to remember what MAD stands for Rofl!
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I don't see how Wisdom makes any more sense for Ninja than people say Charisma does. In fact, it makes less sense to me. Ninja are not, in most any instance I've personally encountered, noted as a rule for being wise. Quick? Sure. Devious? Certainly. Sneaky? Absolutely. Wise? Not so much. There are certainly instances of wise ninja, but they're almost exclusively "elder ninja" (Splinter from TMNT, the Kages from Naruto, Eg Shen from Big Trouble in Little China, etc), and presumably that wisdom comes from age and experience, not from being a ninja.
Anybody that speaks in riddles or uses parables is a wise man in my book. Full blown martial artists that dwell in all the meditation stuff are wise I think.
I was of the opinion that Ki was CHA based for ninjas because unlike monks (who are best known for achieving superhuman feats through discipline and willpower) ninjas get their superpowers by being so incredibly awesome to watch in motion that the laws of physics forget what they're doing and watch in awe like the rest of us.
That definitely seems more like CHA than WIS to me.
I was of the opinion that Ki was CHA based for ninjas because unlike monks (who are best known for achieving superhuman feats through discipline and willpower) ninjas get their superpowers by being so incredibly awesome to watch in motion that the laws of physics forget what they're doing and watch in awe like the rest of us.
That definitely seems more like CHA than WIS to me.
Loooovve it +1
And if a fighter-mage or swordsage covers the one type of ninja and the rogue covers the other, than clearly there is no need for a ninja class. Right?
The counterargument in this case seems to be that the ninja alt-class or archetype delivers a suite of class features that makes playing some sort of ninja easier, more unique and satisfying. I'll be more satisfied if the product gives me the shadow-warrior mystical ninja than if it rehashes ground that the rogue has down well.
Well.. for starters, the swordsage is 1) a non-core, 3.5 class, and therefore not a Pathfinder produced class, preventing Paizo from using it in adventures; and 2) from Tome of Battle: The Book of 9 Swords, which is reviled by many people for no good (IMHO) reason. As such, a Paizo-made, Pathfinder compatible mystical ninja really is kind of necessary, even if it does already have some stiff competition in one of the better 3.5 splats.
Awesome Stuff
You're right, completely, but it all extends into the core of the argument.
What do people think when they hear the word Ninja and,
Who is this class for.
I've read about historical ninja and they are cool, but they are not modern fantasy ninja's, they're rogues. Modern fantasy ninja are mystical and capable are real ultimate power (kudos if you get the reference).
If the class is going to stand on its own then the question comes down to what it offers mechanically that a rogue, a multi-class rogue/xxxx, an archetype or a prestige class can't already offer. A base class ninja is something that can multi-class with the rogue class, has archetypes of its own and has prestige classes it can enter into. The current ninja is simply a different rogue, for a different culture done in a slightly different manner. It just bogs down the game right now.
My original beef with the ninja (which spawned this tirade thread) was how forced Cha felt as a ki resource. In reading through the above posts I can see a very legitimate argument for Cha over Wis. However, regardless of whether or not it's Cha or Wis the class offers nothing that cannot already be accomplished via feats, archetypes or prestige classes. If the class has to exist I would prefer Wis over Cha, but would concede with being able to choose between either stat as opposed to being trapped with one or the other.
So, after all that reading and ranting I propose the Ninja be abolished in favor of feats, archetypes and prestige classes, , , or just let players choose Wis or Cha when making a ninja.
:)
by that logic why is there a fighter, bard, wizard, rogue, bard ect.? why not just have commoner and build characters by having more feats and prestige classes?
I have tried and while I can make a ninja fluffwise I can't make him a ninja in the sense of how people think of one. Honestly if your argument is a ninja can be made already because you can fluff one then we wouldn't need more then one generic martial character and one generic caster, go ahead and fluff your character however you want from their.
People like having a more tailored base for their concepts instead of picking some abilities and explaining what they were trying to put together.
edit:
if this had been a bard play test people would have screamed: we don't want char as a casting stat. MAD, MAD. We want int as a casting stat (or nwis). People just don't care about the role playing aspct of this role playing ghame, they just wantv to go meshuggah on everything.
This.
I am finding that a bit annoying. Thematically. Cha is awesome for Ninjas.
edit:
if this had been a bard play test people would have screamed: we don't want char as a casting stat. MAD, MAD. We want int as a casting stat (or nwis). People just don't care about the role playing aspct of this role playing ghame, they just wantv to go meshuggah on everything.
This.
I am finding that a bit annoying. Thematically. Cha is awesome for Ninjas.
thanks :-)
I wrote this in another thread:
BTW.
It's very funny how some people say that Ki isn't a big deal at the same time scream MAD and want the Ki Pool based on Wis.
If ki is no big deal then char 10 or 12 would be enough. Right?
The people that want to downplay the importance of Ki claims a Ninja should start with at least 14 char. As Zappa one said: Isn't this amazing?