edit:
if this had been a bard play test people would have screamed: we don't want char as a casting stat. MAD, MAD. We want int as a casting stat (or nwis). People just don't care about the role playing aspct of this role playing ghame, they just wantv to go meshuggah on everything.
This.
I am finding that a bit annoying. Thematically. Cha is awesome for Ninjas.
thanks :-)
I wrote this in another thread:
BTW.
It's very funny how some people say that Ki isn't a big deal at the same time scream MAD and want the Ki Pool based on Wis.
If ki is no big deal then char 10 or 12 would be enough. Right?
The people that want to downplay the importance of Ki claims a Ninja should start with at least 14 char. As Zappa one said: Isn't this amazing?
Ki is king. Especially with some of these ninja tricks. Plus. I find that playing with the Cha would just be fun anyhow.
Well, if ninjas get their ki based off of Charisma, at least that explains Ayane, Kasumi, and Mai.
by that logic why is there a fighter, bard, wizard, rogue, bard ect.? why not just have commoner and build characters by having more feats and prestige classes?
I have tried and while I can make a ninja fluffwise I can't make him a ninja in the sense of how people think of one. Honestly if your argument is a ninja can be made already because you can fluff one then we wouldn't need more then one generic martial character and one generic caster, go ahead and fluff your character however you want from their.
People like having a more tailored base for their concepts instead of picking some abilities and explaining what they were trying to put together.
Really? REALLY? You're just going to blindly attack my post without thoroughly reading it? Did you just skim? "sigh". Fine.
The othe classes you named have unique (key word here) abilities that define them and set them apart. The ninja has none of these things. Its ninja tricks could've been or are rogue talents. Many of them are simply rogue talents that have a ki cost. Now, that's interesting, but a feat could open all that up to a multiclass rogue with monk levels.
The point is to avoid class bloat. If there needs to be a ninja class then all I'm asking is it answer the age old question, "what's my role?". Is it a faceman always in disguise, a real ultimate combatant striking from the shadows or an assassin whose presence is never known? Many classes can fulfill any of these roles and do so with unique options. The ninja currently does this by using the abilities of other classes.
Now, to get back on track. I propose the ninja chooses at first level Cha or Wis as its ki stat. I don't believe this is unreasonable.
Now, to get back on track. I propose the ninja chooses at first level Cha or Wis as its ki stat. I don't believe this is unreasonable.If you did this for the ninja, it might make sense to have the same option for the monk; tying it to the concepts of yin and yang;
Wis = Serene/"dark"/cool yin chi/ki
Cha = Emotional/primal/fiery yang chi/kiOf course, this is more from a flavor standpoint than a mechanical one, given the monk's dependence on Wis I doubt the reverse would see much use, but the concept does explain the Wis/Cha dichotomy in the use of the ki pool.
[tangent]I actually have a monk variant called the "battle dancer" that bases its abilities off of Charisma and gets the 3.5 scout class's Skirmish ability instead of Flurry of Blows. Got a player playing one right now, and having some fun with it. I think, in some ways, it actually works better for the monk than flurry, as it plays to their mobility strengths more.[/tangent]
Really? REALLY? You're just going to blindly attack my post without thoroughly reading it? Did you just skim? "sigh". Fine.
The othe classes you named have unique (key word here) abilities that define them and set them apart. The ninja has none of these things. Its ninja tricks could've been or are rogue talents. Many of them are simply rogue talents that have a ki cost. Now, that's interesting, but a feat could open all that up to a multiclass rogue with monk levels.
The point is to avoid class bloat. If there needs to be a ninja class then all I'm asking is it answer the age old question, "what's my role?". Is it a faceman always in disguise, a real ultimate combatant striking from the shadows or an assassin whose presence is never known? Many classes can fulfill any of these roles and do so with unique options. The ninja currently does this by using the abilities of other classes.
Now, to get back on track. I propose the ninja chooses at first level Cha or Wis as its ki stat. I don't believe this is unreasonable.
I read it and understood it, you call the ninja just a clash of other class powers, problem is, so is everyone else, paladin is a cleric fighter and ranger is a rogue druid, no one complains about that.
And I find it odd that your peeved about a rogue alternate class getting rogue abilities, umm so does every other rogue archtype. This one was just given mystical abilities.
The thing is, if this was called the mystical rogue archtype people wouldn't be complaining. he gives up most of the skill talents and gets a pick of mystical ones. The second they called it "ninja" this stopped being okay for some reason
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The thing is, if this was called the mystical rogue archtype people wouldn't be complaining. he gives up most of the skill talents and gets a pick of mystical ones. The second they called it "ninja" this stopped being okay for some reason
Yep! Because once it is called a ninja it has to represent -all- ninja in history and fiction. Even though, as has been pointed out, ninja could be represented by damn near every class.
Mystic rogue? Casting based on CHA? Sounds like a bard archetype, but sure okay. I can live with it.
Ninja? Give it a clear role and pick one focus out of the huge grab-bag of all things ninja. And good luck, because it seems like a fool's errand.
Actually, the ninja doesn't need a true focus like other classes. The ninja tricks can satisfy this, but it's the little unchangables like ki and sneak attack that will get argued. If the whole class was more constructible than I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Paladins get smite. Rangers get favored enemy/terrain. Monks have a bunch of truly unique abilities and rogues get sneak attack. It's hard to justify a whole class that's just a rogue with ki while archetypes exist. Couldn't ninja just be a series of archetypes for most of the classes? Plus, they should have an assassinate ability instead of sneak attack. Not like the assassins death attack, but more like the cavaliers original challenge ability, with bonus dice.
Does anyone else support the idea of allowing a ninja to choose either Wis or Cha for a ki stat?
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Actually, the ninja doesn't need a true focus like other classes. The ninja tricks can satisfy this, but it's the little unchangables like ki and sneak attack that will get argued. If the whole class was more constructible than I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Paladins get smite. Rangers get favored enemy/terrain. Monks have a bunch of truly unique abilities and rogues get sneak attack. It's hard to justify a whole class that's just a rogue with ki while archetypes exist. Couldn't ninja just be a series of archetypes for most of the classes? Plus, they should have an assassinate ability instead of sneak attack. Not like the assassins death attack, but more like the cavaliers original challenge ability, with bonus dice.
Does anyone else support the idea of allowing a ninja to choose either Wis or Cha for a ki stat?
I also support that idea.. Hexcaliber. Personally, I'd like to see the Main ninja be wis-based with a few archetypes thrown like say a seductress type (i.e. Kunoichi). now granted that is just a female ninja but you get the idea. Essentially I'd like to wisdom be the primary stat but have the option of using Cha under an archetype.
Kis wisdom is buff to saves. NOW that's unbalanced compaerd to rogue.
And if you make the Ninja Cha-based, you can multiclass paladin to create the G&#~&$n Batman! :D
This ends the debate. Charisma it is.
This ends the debate. Charisma it is.Kis wisdom is buff to saves. NOW that's unbalanced compaerd to rogue.
And if you make the Ninja Cha-based, you can multiclass paladin to create the G++!#%n Batman! :D
By night he is BAT FISHY!
By night he is BAT FISHY!
Eeeewwwwww! Wet guano! Eeeeewwwwwwww!!!
This ends the debate. Charisma it is.Kis wisdom is buff to saves. NOW that's unbalanced compaerd to rogue.
And if you make the Ninja Cha-based, you can multiclass paladin to create the G*~@~+n Batman! :D
+1
:D
Lol, you remind me of the people who voted for Ah-nold because it was funny.
See how that turned out?
And actually, it takes a paladin and a Cha based monk to make the batman.
Lol, you remind me of the people who voted for Ah-nold because it was funny.
See how that turned out?
And actually, it takes a paladin and a Cha based monk to make the batman.
Turned out fine, I dont know what your talking about :P
And neither of those are sneaky enough, we need that MADest character ever to make the batman, he would have to be paladin, monk, AND ninja (yes you need points in like every stat)
In all reality I have to agree with Hex in this, as neither make a good one, but both gives you leway, especially seeing the ninja in either a historical or a supernatural way.
Historically, ninjas were just peasants. Farmers and workers who just got fed up with whoever was ruling them and began using what little they had for weapons. This also went along with what little illusions that they could get away with. They played with their opponent's senses and minds; appearing only in the corners of eyes, hiding in shadows, making distractions, causing rumors and threats, underhanded tricks and poisons...all of it to psyche the enemy out of their focused tasks before going in for a kill, which was a few yards away. To me, this seems like a mix of both, as it does take willpower and discipline to do those things, but yet also took a sense of guile and craftiness to literially f*@k the mind of your enemies out before going in for the kill.
Just because that's my mindset, it seems like a hard choice to choose between one or the other and just say go with both.
2nd edition Ninja's Handbook had Ninja kits for many classes.
2nd edition Ninja's Handbook had Ninja kits for many classes.
That's one of the few 2nd Ed books I have out of storage and on hand for ideas. The president for ninja archetypes that covers many classes exist already in this form. The book also shows how varied the ninja really is, since the book is more focused on the historical ninja and less on the ninja turtles that were popular when the book came out.
I guess I should add the Wis or Cha ki choice to the suggestions thread. :P
Lol, you remind me of the people who voted for Ah-nold because it was funny.
See how that turned out?
No, I don't see, because your politics couldn't mean less to me. Our own politics are boring enough.
Plus, there is a slight difference between the situations.
So the Charisma stays, just to piss you off!
The president for ninja archetypes
Seriously, lay off your politics talk, that belongs to off-topic. You can't even write straight any more! :P
The president for ninja archetypesSeriously, lay off your politics talk, that belongs to off-topic. You can't even write straight any more! :P
Dang autocorrect! Foils me again!
But does not invalidate my opinions. Just makes ME look silly.
Cha can stay, but only if it plays nice with Wis. Ha! My call for peace and compromise will now piss YOU off!
My call for peace and compromise will now piss YOU off!
Why, when I have won the thread? ;-P
WHAT!?! But Mr. Fishy is BAT FISHY! Mr. Fishy wins the thread.
But Mr. Fishy is BAT FISHY!
Only because you used to be hit by a baseball bat when you were little. And as a fishy, you're still little. All that batting leaves what passes for a brain in a fishy a gooey mush.
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Munchkins what Wisdom for KI as usual that's all I understand from reading so far, that's so they can multiclass to monk with out having the need to put points in Charisma.
Like they have say Ninja is the Sorcerer, or why else make another casting stat than Int or Wis, I mean sorcerers don't draw their power from their charming nature do they?? Yet they still use Charisma INSTEAD of wisdom. STOP trying to get away with munchkin stuff, Charisma based is perfectly fine.
Besides like REAL history says (not some naruto or other garbage fiction) ninjas were infiltrators, spies and ultimately assassins.
My vote stands as probably the Editors to keep the Charisma based Ki Pool.
Besides if the multiclass to Monk they have to choose if you want to use Wis or Cha, so if you are already thinking about MONK dip levels then don't use Cha at all and choose Wis period, friggin cry baby munchkins.
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Less shoving, more civility.
Though I will observe that your argument that Wisdom-based ki is advocated by munchkins is somewhat ill founded. Multiclassing remains suboptimal in most cases, and the penalties from dumping Charisma force the Ninja to make hard choices. More supernatural power? Or more charm and skill at infiltration?
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True but that is not what the series is famous for TriOmegaZero so SHOVE IT and don't pretend to save the series name over a minor detail when you know I speak in general, I was not trying to offend the series either.
No, you were trying to be offensive with just about everything you said, with things like 'REAL history' 'garbage' and 'munchkin stuff'. Every single one of those was an insult. You want me to be civil, start out that way yourself.
I'm fine with ki being based off of Cha for thematic and balance reasons. Ninjas needing to choose between strong saves or more ki is a tough decision. Keeping it in line with the history of having to disguise themselves and fool enemies is great. Use those arguments WITHOUT talking down to 'munchkins' and 'Naruto fans'. Your argument will be much stronger.
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Personally, I love that they made the ninja more CHA focused. Back in 3.5 I always had to stretch my stats thinly because I wanted to make a ninja who was actually good at disguises and bluffing, yet also had a fair amount of ki and a decent AC. I find this approach much more favorable because it fits in with my image of the ninja- a spy with mystical talents, good at gathering information, infiltrating (through steal or disguise), and generally good at misdirection.
Also, Halflings (my favorite race to play) are absolutely perfect ninjas with their Dex/Cha boost and skill boosts. I'm just giddy at the province of playing my Ghostwise Halfling (the telepathic halflings from Faerun) Ninja in a friend's upcoming Forgotten Realms campaign. I would be very upset if they changed the Ki pool from Cha to Wis
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Haha this talk of batman the ninja/paladin is something that irks me. I have seen this build proposed on other forums and there is even one in the DPR Olympics thread. But from a roleplaying perspective, how can a paladin who's code specifically state he does not use poisons multi with a class that receives extensive use in poison...
Also, I believe I read somewhere that when multi-classing with a monk the ninja must choose either cha or wis for his ki pool and that the levels stack for determining overall ki. Could someone set me straight on where this is said or if it is at all? IMHO the ki should work just like arcane spell casting. Since your ki is derived from different ki pools, the ninja has his own CHA ki pool and the monk WIS ki pool. This is the same concept as a wizard multi-classing with a sorceror. Both cast arcane spells, but they are drawn from different abilities.
Hopefully in the next round of playtest they'll let players decide between Cha or Wis for their ninja. I believe that is a fair compromise.
Also, if you support Cha based ki and playing HISTORICAL ninja then you need to get your head checked. If I have to explain why, please put down the controller and get yourself some outside time for a little while.
Blanket statements aside, I rather like charisma for the ninja ki pool and don't see a problem with it.
Also, if you support Cha based ki and playing HISTORICAL ninja then you need to get your head checked. If I have to explain why, please put down the controller and get yourself some outside time for a little while.
1. There's no reason for the ultra-aggressive preemptive ad hominem attacks.
2. The Ultimate Combat Ninja is explicitly designed to NOT be realistic (whereas the Samurai is explicitly designed to be realistic).3. There is no such thing as a "historical ninja". That's not to say that ninja didn't exist, but rather that there's almost zero sources of reliable information on them.
Charisma ki pool works for me.
All arguments about historical vs. fantasy ninja personality traits aside, in the same way that there are multiple spell-casting stats, I think multiple ki pool stats are reasonable.
Also, if you support Cha based ki and playing HISTORICAL ninja then you need to get your head checked. If I have to explain why, please put down the controller and get yourself some outside time for a little while
1. There's no reason for the ultra-aggressive preemptive ad hominem attacks.
2. The Ultimate Combat Ninja is explicitly designed to NOT be realistic (whereas the Samurai is explicitly designed to be realistic).
3. There is no such thing as a "historical ninja". That's not to say that ninja didn't exist, but rather that there's almost zero sources of reliable information on them.1. That was way too much smart for one sentence. All I'm trying to point out is the hypocrisy of some people. Sadly, there's no nice way of telling someone their being foolish, but I do try.
2. This is a duh. It's also the point I'm trying to make. Ki being Wis based is consistent. Making it Cha based, to me, is asinine and forced. Yes, it's different and intriguing, but unnecessary. If they allowed players to choose between the two stats then this would be a fair compromise. People that want real ultimate ninjas can have them, people who want super spies can have that too.
3. True, but there is a public perception of what ninjas should be. This is what makes this class so difficult to create. Everyone's going to have an opinion and to them it's going to be right to them.
I do have a problem with Cha based ki. It isn't consistent with what exist already and forces me to play a faceman when I want to play a Ninja. Yes, it can be houseruled, yes it can be ignored, but if Paizo didn't want my opinion then they would've asked. I've offered a compromise. Hopefully, Paizo will listen.
A cha based Ninja Doesn't make any sense what so ever. logically it should be wis. I'm all for balancing but not when it done so obviously and no other reason. there is no reason other than to buff cha that it should be the KI points for a ninja.
The very notion of ki, is wisdom. you gain Ki because you can reach that part of mind and body with your Will. it's just silly honestly, and just because something is fantastical doesnt mean it has to be silly.
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I don't see how Wisdom makes any more sense for Ninja than people say Charisma does. In fact, it makes less sense to me. Ninja are not, in most any instance I've personally encountered, noted as a rule for being wise. Quick? Sure. Devious? Certainly. Sneaky? Absolutely. Wise? Not so much. There are certainly instances of wise ninja, but they're almost exclusively "elder ninja" (Splinter from TMNT, the Kages from Naruto, Eg Shen from Big Trouble in Little China, etc), and presumably that wisdom comes from age and experience, not from being a ninja.
I don't really see Eg Shen being a ninja. Wizard? Sure. Sorceror? Why not? Heck, I could even see him as a priest, with the right fluff. (Eg Shen as mystic theurge? Hrmmm... me likey. Me likey a lot.)
Now, to throw my $0.02 into the matter of CHA vs WIS debate: both camps have points. It really depends on what the player sees as a ninja. As has been mentioned several times by people more intelligent than I, the term "ninja" covers a LOT of territory. Personally, I like the idea of a CHA based ninja - it plays into what I personally see as a "true ninja". But I see the WIS camp's point.
So where does that leave us? Well, Paizo could scrap the class completely. Now while that would apparently make some players happy (from reading comments on this thread), I think it would upset a lot more.
Paizo could just leave the class be. That would make the CHA camp happy. And the WIS camp? Well, they'd either avoid the class, house-rule it or be 'forced' to multiclass with monk.
Paizo could change ther ninja to be WIS based. That's the flipside of option two: happy WIS camp and not so happy CHA camp.
Or Paizo could take the tack that several have suggested here - let the player decide what their Ki is based on (CHA or WIS) at first level. That makes both camps happy, but it seems a bit wishy-washy. But with the right fluff (for example, unverified's yin versus yang scenario) it could fly.
Ultimately, that's Paizo's call not mine (and they might see another option I don't). It's their world, they just let me play in it. And yes, things can always be house ruled or rule 0'd - but that depends on the whim of the DM. In my games I can do whatever I think is best, but in someone else's game I play by their rules or I don't play. And I haven't really seen a lot of PF houserules yet, most of the PF DMs I've seen have been happy with Paizo's published rules.
EDITED: to give unverified credit for the yin-yang concept of allowing either CHA or WIS Ki pools
I don't see how Wisdom makes any more sense for Ninja than people say Charisma does. In fact, it makes less sense to me. Ninja are not, in most any instance I've personally encountered, noted as a rule for being wise. Quick? Sure. Devious? Certainly. Sneaky? Absolutely. Wise? Not so much. There are certainly instances of wise ninja, but they're almost exclusively "elder ninja" (Splinter from TMNT, the Kages from Naruto, Eg Shen from Big Trouble in Little China, etc), and presumably that wisdom comes from age and experience, not from being a ninja.
this post makes no sense. devious, sneaky are mutually exclusive with wisdom. wisdom is pathfinder is a measure of the force of your willpower-your dedication- your steel of your mind.
ninjas are just monks. I will put it this way, could you have a bad ass ninja with 3 cha, hell yes.
Could you have a bad ass ninja with 3 cha? hell no.
Why in all ninja stories, a common theme is dedication and will power. before the ninja shot his first bow, he pulled the string a 1000 times. Before the Ninja entered he studied the layout for a month.
Ninja are written as monks, instead of temples they have clans, they the same insane dedication to the particular task, only thier ends are different.
cha has a ki score for ninjas make no sense
the same for rogues and not monks being the base class.
I do have a problem with Cha based ki. It isn't consistent with what exist already and forces me to play a faceman when I want to play a Ninja.Design goal accomplished. And if you want proof, the quote's already been referenced several times in this thread.
I really dislike it when people comment only on a snippet. This snippet of mine does not encapsulate my point, because the design goal is flawed. Ninjas belong to everyone who's seen a ninja movie, tv show, video game and fallen in love with the tropes. The current design tries to honor those tropes, but because Intimidate is based off of Cha a badass ninja has to have Cha as a base stat.
Plus I've already established a fair compromise. Yes, it's wishy washy, but most compromises are like that.
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This is an old debate that was mostly settled.
The ninja, as it was presented for the first round of play-testing, needs to use Charisma for mechanical reasons. When compared to a Rogue, the class is (speaking broadly and generally) better at dealing damage on its own. The rogue does have other tricks, and I'd rather keep the rogue-vs-ninja debate in its own threads, but it does need to be mentioned here.
One thing that really gets in the way of the ninja, slows it down, and otherwise gives Rogues an edge is the ninja's dependency on what would otherwise be a dump stat. Forcing them to have a decent charisma means lower intelligence or wisdom or strength or something.
You can call it bad design. You can say it doesn't fit your concept of a ninja. You can argue about how their concept is flawed in numerous ways. But if nothing else it's still needed mechanically as an "ability tax", and any idea to change or replace it needs to cover this mechanical issue somehow.
I haven't seen any suggestions that address how swapping Ki to Wisdom would upset comparative mechanical balance between the Rogue and the Ninja.
(and no, saying "Rogues are weak and underpowered" is a non-starter; like the "firearms hit Touch AC" debates, piazo has made it abundantly clear that they think the Rogue is fine, so the ninja needs to be kept at the Rogue's level or it is by definition overpowered.)
??????
I don't see how it affects game balance either way. Wis simply means higher Perception and, , , survival? Of course the ninja benefits more from Cha instead of Wis, but Wis makes sence since it's already been established. And, it just doesn't look right to me.
As for game balance, I don't think it matters all that much. All that matters is if people are having fun. I just want the option to have fun in my own way without having to houserule it. I don't think that's unreasonable.
