Sean Bean heads cast for HBO's A Game of Thrones


Television

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Yeah, half aunt is pretty much "new blood" by european standards


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What is this "half aunt" business? Rhaegar and Daenerys were full siblings.


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Do you want half-aunts? Because Qyburn's how you get half-aunts.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Yeah, half aunt is pretty much "new blood" by european standards

An aunt or uncle only needs to be one parent's sibling. There is no such thing as a "half aunt".

I guess you could say Tyrion is Joffrey's "double" uncle?

I have a half-brother, and I'm still considered the uncle to his children.


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Irontruth wrote:
I guess you could say Tyrion is Joffrey's "double" uncle?

Took me a second, but that's funny. Well played.


I wouldn't be surprised if the pregnancy is a fakeout by Cersei to manipulate people again. Olanna has said she was getting very near menopause.


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Marc Radle wrote:

Well, no, not really.

Martin wrote all this - the show runners are just adapting. Martin is the one that created main characters that are twins and have sex. Martin is the one that set up the current situation with Jon and Danny

Kind of makes you wonder what Martin's fascination is with incest and eunuchs ...

Well...Other than a few broad strokes, I don't think you can take ANYTHING that happens in the show beginning in season 5 as some sort of "GRRM dictated this in the story". It actually wouldn't entirely surprise me if Dany and Jon never hook up in the books.

The two products are really completely different beasts at this point.


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MannyGoblin wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the pregnancy is a fakeout by Cersei to manipulate people again. Olanna has said she was getting very near menopause.

That's my take. So far the pregnancy has mostly been used as a way to keep Jaimie under her thumb, and as a way to fake out Tyrion so she can set up her betrayal.


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Irontruth wrote:
Set wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Set wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Incest is the most consistent theme of the show so far. It's like they're slowly trying to convince us it's okay.
If by 'okay,' your kids might turn out to be sociopaths (and their insane inbred parents, whether Lannister or Targaryean might end up getting most of them, and thousands of other people, killed anyway, by making enemies of *everyone*), then yeah.
You don't need to convince me, it's the show's writers who need the talking to.

But that's not me trying to convince you. That's literally what the writers have shown us. The incestuous families are riddled with psychos, whether it be the Mad King, Viserys, Cersei or Joffrey.

I'd hardly characterize the show as 'trying to convince us it's okay,' since even the characters not twisted by inbreeding, end up like Tommen and Myrcella, dying because of their mother's mad gift for making enemies.

If the show was 'trying to convince us it's okay,' the various products of incestuous families (such as Joffrey) would likely be a bit more sympathetic, and there'd be less people on-screen baiting Cersei with how unacceptable the idea of her making babies with her brother. (Leading up to her 'Walk of Shame' after Lancel Lannister blabs about her incestuous actions.)

Your point is unconvincing, because Jon, Dany and Margery were all well loved characters who were shown in a very positive light on the show. In fact, the two characters who are most likely characters to be the saviors of all living people are now in an incestuous relationship (albeit unknowingly).

Cersei is only pregnant now because the shows writers realized that with no children left, there was no convincing reason for her to not go off the deep end, or for the audience to connect with her at all. The show writers literally gave her a 4th incestuous child in order to keep the audience mildly sympathetic to her and able to understand her motivations.

When Cersei was...

I don't recall any Margaery incest? the closest I can recall was like her suggesting Loras could help get Renly in the mood. My take on that wasn't that it would involve her and Loras becoming intimate. And that doesn't appear to have ever happened anyway. And that never happened in the book nor is there a suggestion that Margaery would go for it.

My feeling is that Jon and Dany hooking up has less to do with any sort of messaging and more the showrunners tapping into the most obvious source of drama for those characters interacting. That Tyrion seems deeply concerned about it happening suggests that this is situation could have consequences comparable to when Robb and his future wife first got together, rather than being some sort of romantic happily ever after situation.

Other than a couple of points that have heavily been foreshadowed in the books,(like Jon's paternity), I wouldn't take anything happening on the show as supportive of anything, other than the showrunners increasingly falling back on all sort of tropes that the earlier seasons mostly dissected and threw away.


^ I believe what was happening with Loras/Renly/Marg is that Loras would strut his stuff while Renly was trying to do his kingly duty with Marg and thus be able to perform and let friction do the work.


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Anyone who watches GoT and takes it as an endorsement of incest is getting it wrong. As wrong as taking Thorne's speech from season one, the Thenns attack on the farmstead and Arya's Frey pie as endorsement of cannibalism. It's just weird that you would think that.


Meh. Love is love. Let siblings screw each other so as long as they're two relatively (HA!) sane, consenting adults.

That said, Cersei and Jamie are a prime example of why incest rarely creates healthy relationships.

Now in regard to GRRM's views on incest, well, the guy definitely writes Cersei's and Jamie's relationship in the books as horribly toxic, manipulative, and ultimately abusive, with Jamie eventually realizing all that and trying to move on and be a better person. On the other hand, if you read up on the expanded ASOIAF lore, you find out that the most successful and peaceful Targaryen reign was one where the king and queen were brother and sister who deeply loved each. So with that information, I think GRRM probably sees incest as a Neutral that he doesn't believe is Always Chaotic Evil.


I doubt GRRM sees the world in terms of D&D alignment, and I think it's facile to assume the fiction an author writes is indicative of their views on actions in the real world.


Delightful wrote:
On the other hand, if you read up on the expanded ASOIAF lore, you find out that the most successful and peaceful Targaryen reign was one where the king and queen were brother and sister who deeply loved each.

... didn't that lead to the one they call the mad king? (bran being worse for your sanity than inbreeding not withstanding)


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Hitdice wrote:
Anyone who watches GoT and takes it as an endorsement of incest is getting it wrong. As wrong as taking Thorne's speech from season one, the Thenns attack on the farmstead and Arya's Frey pie as endorsement of cannibalism. It's just weird that you would think that.

When I first saw that slice of Frey pie on screen, I immediately knew what was in it (from the books) and guessed who the serving girl was, but that not stop me from having an almost Pavlovian reaction to the pie crust. I lost interest as soon as they showed what was in it... but I was still hungry for a flaky crust pie.

(And now I'm hungry for pie again.)

BigNorseWolf wrote:
(bran being worse for your sanity than inbreeding not withstanding)

Yeah, Two Scoops from Raven Bran* isn't part of a mentally healthy breakfast.

I still like Raven Bran over calling him Dr. Branhattan.


Hitdice wrote:
Anyone who watches GoT and takes it as an endorsement of incest is getting it wrong. As wrong as taking Thorne's speech from season one, the Thenns attack on the farmstead and Arya's Frey pie as endorsement of cannibalism. It's just weird that you would think that.

You're allowed to your interpretation too. It's the neat thing about subjective opinions, none of them are truly right or wrong.


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Raven Bran


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Irontruth wrote:
Hitdice wrote:
Anyone who watches GoT and takes it as an endorsement of incest is getting it wrong. As wrong as taking Thorne's speech from season one, the Thenns attack on the farmstead and Arya's Frey pie as endorsement of cannibalism. It's just weird that you would think that.
You're allowed to your interpretation too. It's the neat thing about subjective opinions, none of them are truly right or wrong.

So, you're admitting that the show-runner's/author's pro-incest agenda that you were blathering about is your subjective interpretation, not something they're actually writing into the books or script?

'Cause that's what I'm saying.


What do we watch now to tide us over? Westworld Pt.2 won't be until next year.

Liberty's Edge

I plan on watching the series again from the beginning on On Demand


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Watch Farscape and Babylon 5 reruns, taking note of ideas for Starfinder.


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Preacher and Ray Donovan are on my list right now.


Hitdice wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Hitdice wrote:
Anyone who watches GoT and takes it as an endorsement of incest is getting it wrong. As wrong as taking Thorne's speech from season one, the Thenns attack on the farmstead and Arya's Frey pie as endorsement of cannibalism. It's just weird that you would think that.
You're allowed to your interpretation too. It's the neat thing about subjective opinions, none of them are truly right or wrong.

So, you're admitting that the show-runner's/author's pro-incest agenda that you were blathering about is your subjective interpretation, not something they're actually writing into the books or script?

'Cause that's what I'm saying.

Getting awful defensive/accusatory here.

Need a cookie? Hug? Beer?*

You'll notice in my rebuttal to someone else, I didn't say "You are wrong." I said "I am unconvinced." I chose those words on purpose.

*All offers of cookies, hugs, and beers must be redeemed in person, travel expenses not included.


Planpanther wrote:
Preacher and Ray Donovan are on my list right now.

Preacher is a pretty damn good show.


GM Niles wrote:
Planpanther wrote:
Preacher and Ray Donovan are on my list right now.
Preacher is a pretty damn good show.

Different from the comic bit I like both! :-)


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I'm watching the Deathnote anime myself


For those who are interested in GoT stuff on Youtube, check out these

Burlington Bar reactions. GoT episodes shown at the bar in question where customers gather for GoT night

Where I Try To Understand Game of Thrones. Fellow who has never watched before jumps into Season 7 to comment. Rather amusing since he starts handing out nicknames

Liberty's Edge

Marc Radle wrote:
I plan on watching the series again from the beginning on On Demand

We're up to Season 4 of the second viewing. Watching them all again from the beginning is really fantastic. Lots of little moments and details I forgot about or didn't understand the significance of, and it's filling in / answering questions I had about various things I wasn't sure of the first time.

Dark Archive

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Girl fight ! Girl fight !

Dark Archive

I love that Gwendoline Christie's stunt double is a man. And is two inches shorter than her.

Dark Archive

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Apparently he knew something.

Congratulations Lord Commander.

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baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Apparently he knew something.

Congratulations Lord Commander.

Dawwwwwwww!

Yay!

Liberty's Edge

Anyone else think once the final season airs, the demand for the last couple of books will fall?


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CapeCodRPGer wrote:
Anyone else think once the final season airs, the demand for the last couple of books will fall?

The showrunners haven't done a good job any time they haven't had book material to back them up in my opinion. So lots of people will probably still want the "proper" ending.


Trust me, there's at least ONE guy here that wants to read the books.

Sovereign Court

CapeCodRPGer wrote:
Anyone else think once the final season airs, the demand for the last couple of books will fall?

Thats an interesting question. Dance with Dragons was awful, it killed any enthusiasm I had for the books. However, last season of the show has been utter garbage so im actually looking forward to the books again.


I sometimes wonder if DwD is Martin's attempt at Finnegan's Wake.


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That's probably truer of A Feast for Crows, which was essentially a walk through the ashes of a war. Interesting and well-written but perhaps not the best thing to do in Book 4 of a planned 7-book series. Book 5 actually got forward plot movement going again in the series (just not as much as might have been hoped).


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I am here just for the spectacle. Gimmie dragons and zombies and the boobies.


MannyGoblin wrote:
I am here just for the spectacle. Gimmie dragons and zombies and the boobies.

So a GoT spin off about a topless Zombie Dragon could count you in as a viewer? :-)


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Werthead wrote:
That's probably truer of A Feast for Crows, which was essentially a walk through the ashes of a war. Interesting and well-written but perhaps not the best thing to do in Book 4 of a planned 7-book series. Book 5 actually got forward plot movement going again in the series (just not as much as might have been hoped).

I didn't find DwD actually advancing the plot very far. In fact, I found that nearly every major character was in a situation they had previously been in 2-3 books prior. Hence the Finnegan's Wake reference, in that the book is almost like a never-ending loop that's a satirical examination of the cyclical nature of history. Someone strives for power, they attain it, then they fall and go right back where they started. It's been a few years since I read it, so I don't want to go over minutia, but that was my general stance on the book.

AFfC was indeed what you describe, kind of the telling of what happens to all these ancillary characters while the machinations of the powerful go on and on, but it fell flat because it focused on characters that weren't POV characters in previous books.

I think in retrospect, Martin should have done the series as a connected anthology, rather than a linear series. Write 1 book and tell Dany's story. Then write a new book and tell Jon Snow's story. Book 3, tell Arya's story. And so on, and so on. We would already know how the war for the Iron Throne and against the White Walkers ends, but each new book fills in gaps about characters that we didn't know before. We get bits and pieces of Tyrion's story from Jon Snow and Dany, but then Tyrion's book fills in all the gaps and introduces intrigue about someone else.

As it is, this thing has spiraled out of his control and I don't think Martin knows how to write his way out of it. I'll be interested to see who his estate hires to write book 7.


You know that calling something an attempt at Finnegans Wake is a compliment, not an insult, right?


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All I Know is that I want a trilogy based on Hotpie "the trials of the Piemaster"


I think books 4/5 made it very apparent that GRRM never sat down and figured out how the series would unfold/ major events of each book/ individual character arcs. Which is fine for the first book or 2 of a long series, but not by books 4/5 of a 6-7 book series. I think part of the reason the last few books have taken so long is had to figure out a coherent way to wrap things up.

Scarab Sages

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Black Dougal wrote:
All I Know is that I want a trilogy based on Hotpie "the trials of the Piemaster"

"How Hot is your Pie?" A Love Story by Danielle Steele


Hitdice wrote:
You know that calling something an attempt at Finnegans Wake is a compliment, not an insult, right?

I don't think it is inherently either one. I don't intend it as complimentary, but not necessarily as an insult either. Rather as a descriptor of the tangled mass that doesn't move forward. Just because something is a tangled mass that doesn't move forward doesn't mean it is bad or good. I did still enjoy DwD, but it wasn't as compelling as books 1, 2, or 3. It was better than 4 though. I didn't lose interest in the series because of it.

In an extremely large number of other ways the book is of course nothing like FInnegans Wake. In fact, the descriptor that I am referencing is of course one of the least important aspects of FW, and potentially the most superfluous.

I also don't honestly think he was influenced by Joyce or was emulating him at all with this book.


I think the book's worst crime is that they're somewhat bloated and sometimes take extended tangents to reach a point, Arianne's Queenmaker plot and Brienne's hunt for Sansa being the biggest examples.

That said, even at their worst the books aren't stupid and flippant and I'll take bloated and long tangents over the Reach getting curb-stomped out of nowhere and the ridiculous Winterfell plot.


I think Brienne's hunt for Sansa was probably the worst plotline in the books. I love the character, but spending hundreds of pages watching her going in what you already know is the wrong direction and not have anything important happen until the very end (and then what actually happens is both extremely frustrating and then left ambiguous) is one of the reasons book 4 is such a slog.

Liberty's Edge

Going to be a little bit before we see more episodes.


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Browman wrote:
I think books 4/5 made it very apparent that GRRM never sat down and figured out how the series would unfold/ major events of each book/ individual character arcs. Which is fine for the first book or 2 of a long series, but not by books 4/5 of a 6-7 book series. I think part of the reason the last few books have taken so long is had to figure out a coherent way to wrap things up.

Nah...it's more like he changed the direction. He was originally going to do a 5 year jump after Storm of Swords, and actually wrote a good chunk before realizing that wasn't going to work.

I think getting rid of the 5 year jump bogged things down, because suddenly he had a ton of elements he didn't have to worry about (timing of arrivals in mereen, What character X is doing, Dornish politics) that suddenly he had to detail.

Also I am sure, having some of your protagonists not getting to become adults before kickstarting the next phase of your saga was probably a pain to deal with.

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