Sean Bean heads cast for HBO's A Game of Thrones


Television

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archmagi1 wrote:

My thoughts.

** spoiler omitted **

Well extinction on Westeros side of the ocean. I am sure there are plenty across the water.

WHile that was effective as a 'dying of the light' scene, having say catapults in front instead of in back and bad formations has irritated a lot of people. I forget, were the Unsullied light infantry.

I suppose if Cersei hadn't of backstabbed, then heavyshields would stand up front and block the wave


archmagi1 wrote:

My thoughts.

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
I don't think there's a need for a nights watch anymore

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I can't believe the story of ASoIaF ends like this

Spoiler:
the writers turned it into some generic fantasy

Scarab Sages

Marc Radle wrote:
archmagi1 wrote:

My thoughts.

** spoiler omitted **

The Ravener?

Who is that?

The dragon wight. Viserion. Closest thing to a Pathfinder ravener.


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Knoq Nixoy wrote:

I can't believe the story of ASoIaF ends like this

** spoiler omitted **

I've known a few people who refuse to watch the show until the books are finished, because they are afraid that the show will spoil the ending of the books.

This is obviously untrue, since GRRM is a much better writer than the two showrunners. For example, wherever GRRM is aware of any science that he isn't specifically breaking, he attempts to adhere to real world science. Like that dragons don't have 4 legs AND wings, since no real world reptiles, mammals or birds have that configuration.

This means that long-dead corpses wouldn't be able to rise suddenly, because dry bones would have no connective tissue to cause them to be mobile. Martin would pay close attention to how long corpses had been entombed and seriously consider whether or not they'd be viable candidates for the Night King to animate.

A couple of major plot points might be the same (Ie, of the 3-5 most important characters, who lives, who dies, and who sits on the Iron Throne), but all of the details and the how will be different.

I also think that temperamentally, GRRM will want to make the books feel different from the show. He won't feel satisfied with his work if he's just rehashing the show's story.

Liberty's Edge

I think the show runners are much better writers than you are giving them credit for. It’s pretty clear you are not a big fan of the show compared to the books, and that’s cool. But I don’t think you need to take shots at Dan and Dave just to try and make your points.

I’m also curious how you reconsile your comments with the fact that Dan and Dave sat down with Martin for a prolonged period of time and Martin laid out the plot outline he plans to use for the rest of the series. This is the outline the show runners are following when they write these episodes, so it stands to follow that the main evens and beats we see are what Martin laid out. Seems a little disingenous to snipe at the show runners for things that in all likelihood came directly from Martin himself ...


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Marc Radle wrote:

I think the show runners are much better writers than you are giving them credit for. It’s pretty clear you are not a big fan of the show compared to the books, and that’s cool. But I don’t think you need to take shots at Dan and Dave just to try and make your points.

I’m also curious how you reconsile your comments with the fact that Dan and Dave sat down with Martin for a prolonged period of time and Martin laid out the plot outline he plans to use for the rest of the series. This is the outline the show runners are following when they write these episodes, so it stands to follow that the main evens and beats we see are what Martin laid out. Seems a little disingenous to snipe at the show runners for things that in all likelihood came directly from Martin himself ...

I enjoy the show a lot. I think when Dan and Dave were working with well established material they did a really good job. I think they are good writers, but they are not great writers.

Why did season 1-4 work so well? GRRM spent a ton of time creating the story, and it was already completely fleshed out. All the showrunners needed to do was adapt it to TV. They didn't have to reinvent the wheel, just repair a few spokes.

Dan and Dave did a really good job of pruning characters, ensuring we had good dialogue, and combining book chapters or even whole arcs to ensure that everything would fit within the constraints of the show. Like, I'm not just saying they did an okay job, I think they did it really well. This isn't easy to do and requires a lot of skill and knowledge of the format.

The problem is that those skills are different from the ones they need to use now. I think season 5 and 6 were fine. The quality dropped a little, but they were still so close to the source material that it really wasn't much of an issue. They just had to create the "next" thing for each character and that wasn't a big leap. The issues really crept into season 7, where their mediocre pacing, characterization, and inventiveness shines through.

Part of what makes me seem mad is that I love the show. If I didn't like the show, I wouldn't care. I wouldn't spend the time talking about it. The amount of words I type are directly proportional to how much I care about the show. (Part of it is also habit, I spend my days analyzing and critiquing things constantly, so it's hard for me to talk about a thing and not do these things... also, this is more fun for me, it's so much easier than reading an early 19th century Muslim scholar's critique of Napoleon's Egyptian invasion pamphlets)

As for what came from GRRM? I think I already mentioned that.

Irontruth wrote:


A couple of major plot points might be the same (Ie, of the 3-5 most important characters, who lives, who dies, and who sits on the Iron Throne), but all of the details and the how will be different.

I know that it's been revealed that Dan and Dave know generally how it ends, but since the book hasn't been written yet... they can't know specifically how it ends. They can't know how every character ends up, because if they did that would mean that the books are basically done. I would certainly be willing to increase the number two to three times in the above quote (ie: 6-10 or 9 to 15... though I think 9 to 15 might be stretching it).

For example, I'd be willing to bet $5 that Arya doesn't kill Baelish in the books.

GRRM constantly rewrites and changes his work. Even if he decided something moderately important previously, it isn't written in stone until it goes to the publisher. There's a reason these books take him forever to write.

A character in the books literally has a magical horn that can control dragons. Seeing as Martin adhere's to Chekov's rules about firearms, I'm pretty sure that is going to dramatically alter the story in the books from the one in the show.

How EP3 ended could happen in the books in a completely different way. Same character, but in a completely different location and context. The overall arc is the same, but the details are COMPLETELY different. So even knowing "[X] kills [Y]" is a really vague thing and they can happen in the show and books in entirely different ways.

Back to the show...

What I find so frustrating is that some of these mistakes are easy mistakes to fix. For example in Season 7, the "teleporting" issue could have been solved by just adding in dialogue from the characters about how unpleasant their journey was. It wouldn't solve Gendry's run to the wall, but that whole situation was poorly contrived.

With season 8, we could have been done with what was covered so far in one fewer episode AND it would have been more fun to watch. Take all your favorite bits of EP 1 and EP 2, cut them together, and you have a more satisfying and just as coherent of an episode, but in half the time. If they wanted it to take the full two episodes, then they need more drama. For example, convenient helpful person could have shown up earlier and caused a ruckus, allowing that to play out amongst the characters more. Or more intrigue about what Jon's parentage truly means. It doesn't have to resolve, but hinting that there might be divided loyalties going into the battle only ups the stakes for everyone.

If you want to ignore my criticisms, you are more than welcome to. I don't demand that people agree with me. Neither am I going to fawn over the show just because they're putting characters I love on the screen. I wish the show could exist at it's fullest potential.

Now I'm going to go back to reading/writing about 12th century Ife Ife shrine heads.


archmagi1 wrote:

My thoughts.

** spoiler omitted **

Does the Night Watch even need to exist now?


Damon Griffin wrote:
archmagi1 wrote:

My thoughts.

** spoiler omitted **

Does the Night Watch even need to exist now?

8-Ball says 'Nope' The NW has been pretty much wiped out as well.


Whether the Black Watch was wiped out or not, the Wall has been breached and the threat from the North is gone, so...seems like there's nothing to guard or guard against now.

Liberty's Edge

Has there been any statement or anything from HBO on the complaints about the episode being so dark you couldn't see anything?

HBO hyped this up saying basically, "we filmed this huge epic battle over 55 nights, wait until you see it."

Would've been nice if we could've seen it.


Well what could be done besides 'We are sorry you didn't enjoy the episode' and suggestions for tweaking your TV display?


HBO has the money they dont care if you couldnt see it.


I streamed this via Roku and I think there were only a couple of scenes that I thought were a touch too dark. I think the complaints are a bit overblown.

Liberty's Edge

No, I don't think so.

I LOVED the episode, but pretty early into it, my wife and I both commented that it was really dark and we were having trouble following what was going on.


Following link is for a scene of the Jon/NK dragon flight with brightness up and speed down
Link here


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Quote:
I think when Dan and Dave were working with well established material they did a really good job. I think they are good writers, but they are not great writers.

I agree with this. Benioff and Weiss's other work has been largely average to poor, and a lot of it relies on pre-existing properties: TROY, HALO, X-MEN ORIGINS: WOLVERINE, THE KITE RUNNER etc. Weiss's sole original novel is unremarkable, and Benioff's second book, CITY OF THIEVES, set during the Siege of Leningrade during WW2, doesn't actually appear to have had any research done for it beyond the most superficial. Benioff's reputation really rests on his solid first novel (THE 25th HOUR) and Spike Lee's movie version, and he leveraged that to get a Hollywood scripting career which has really not allowed him to show a lot of talent for scripting original material.

Benoff & Weiss are clearly solid adapters of other people's material and very effective producers, but they have not shown themselves to be great writers. In fact, I don't think they're even the best writers on GoT: GRRM and Bryan Cogman's scripts have been much more consistently stronger throughout.

I have low expectations for their STAR WARS trilogy, unless the rumours that they'll be adapting the KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBLIC video games are true.

Quote:
I’m also curious how you reconsile your comments with the fact that Dan and Dave sat down with Martin for a prolonged period of time and Martin laid out the plot outline he plans to use for the rest of the series. This is the outline the show runners are following when they write these episodes, so it stands to follow that the main evens and beats we see are what Martin laid out. Seems a little disingenous to snipe at the show runners for things that in all likelihood came directly from Martin himself ...

Martin sat down with D&D in early 2013 in Santa Fe and Martin gave them the outline he had for the rest of the story. However, Martin acknowledged that this outline was very vague, as many story points and character fates were still to be determined. So he knows which major characters live and die and who ends up on the Iron Throne (or if it exists), but he doesn't know the fate of many secondary and tertiary characters, like say Bronn. He's also said that D&D were under no obligation to follow that outline and could simply create entirely new material out of thin air if they wished, and has said some material was based on that outline (particularly Hodor's fate) and others have not.

For example, D&D have said that the fate of the Night King and how that story resolves itself is something they came up with in discussions three years ago, some three years after that discussion with George, so clearly it was a plot point they created themselves (along with the Night King himself, who does not exist in the books).


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This episode was...terrible. There was good scenes...Araya...Melisandre....etc. There was moments.

But...Jon and others knew exactly the enemy their were facing...and their tactics was possibly the stupidest possible....

Why send the world's greatest light calvary on a charge against a enemy that knows no fear and will swarm them under?

Why do you have your army outside the castle walls? There are reasons why you build walls after all.

Both of these tactics just lead to more dead people which against a necromancer means literally more troops.

I am wondering why people follow Jon at all...all he does is get people killed dumbly and pointlessly.

There is also seriously major story issues...

The crypt scene was completely pointless...no one important died...and they did not use a truly horror by having Rickon raised

Why did the night king even bother with winterfell? I mean seriously just send a force to keep them pinned and go south for easier targets...

But Ultimately it really just destroyed the central theme to the entire story. Which all the petty politics sauabbling is dumb in face of the the threat if the Night King...but now apparently it is not...because it appears that one of the most moronic characters on the show is now a genjus.. sigh.


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Selene Spires wrote:
Why do you have your army outside the castle walls? There are reasons why you build walls after all.

It was established that Winterfell was not adequately provisioned for a siege, which is exactly what they'd have faced if they'd kept their forces inside the walls.

Selene Spires wrote:

Why did the night king even bother with winterfell? I mean seriously just send a force to keep them pinned and go south for easier targets...

Think about how that battle would have gone with the Night King and Viserion absent. The living dragons would have been unimpeded, the army of the dead would not have been replenished in mid-battle, etc. The Night King would then have left a large enemy force behind him, never a good strategy.


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Well Arya killing the NK is something that happens all the time in RPGS,

That happens all the time in RPGs

She used her Bonus action to disengage (meaning her movement for the rest of her turn doesnt provoke AoO's), then moved 60' to the NK and took the Attack action (using her Assassinate ability on him from her levels in Assassin Rogue).

Sadly the NK had the Alert feat (rendering him immune to Surprise and her Auto Crit ability) and was able to use a reaction to her attack (he has the Parry reaction), however thanks to the fact she still rolled higher initiative than him, was able to apply her 8d6 Sneak Attack damage to the attack (which was a critical hit anyway, thanks to her rolling a natural 20 on the attack roll) in addition to the extra +2d6 damage dealt by her enchanted Valerian steel dagger.

Thank to the NK's Vulnerability to Slashing, Bludgeoning and Piercing weapons made from Valerian Steel, the damage (1d4+5+10d6) was multiplied by 4. The resulting 200 points of damage was enough to reduce his Hit Points to zero.


New episode tonight. Rumors on SomethingAwful are..I won't say but will watch first.


Selene Spires wrote:


Why send the world's greatest light calvary on a charge against a enemy that knows no fear and will swarm them under?

They're dothraki. They kind of have one attack button.

Quote:
Why do you have your army outside the castle walls? There are reasons why you build walls after all.

Kings landing has more people than the entire north. Chances are pretty good the biggest army the worlds ever seen is more people than you can functionally plant inside the biggest fort in the north.

Quote:
Both of these tactics just lead to more dead people which against a necromancer means literally more troops.

They definitely don't seem to have accounted for the need to make every life count a lot. One person behind a wall is worth 10 attacking it and...I wonder what kind of kill ratio you need to maintain to win against a zombie apocolypse.

Quote:
I am wondering why people follow Jon at all...all he does is get people killed dumbly and pointlessly.

Survivors bias takes on a whole new meaning when you can come back from the dead.

Quote:
Why did the night king even bother with winterfell? I mean seriously just send a force to keep them pinned and go south for easier targets...

Bran is there and he wants bran to be his. Killing brain isn't enough. He needs to absorb him.

Quote:

But Ultimately it really just destroyed the central theme to the entire story. Which all the petty politics sauabbling is dumb in face of the the threat if the Night King...but now apparently it is not...because it appears that one of the most moronic characters on the show is now a genjus.. sigh.

I am worried that cersei and eurons villian sue will now lead to an unsatisfied ending. 2000 golden company vs 2 dragons is still a weenie roast.


@BigNorseWolf

Oh sweet summer child...

Liberty's Edge

Heck of an excellent episode and a hell of a set up for next week!


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I don't think it was very good. I find this season disappointing. It could be so much more so easily.


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Phillip Gastone wrote:

@BigNorseWolf

Oh sweet summer child...

Okay, it SHOULD be a weenie roast but

Spoiler:
someone has the wisdom score of a ergot addled lemming if they can't see a fleet of ships from the air before they come into crossbow range.


you could also...not watch it?


MMCJawa wrote:
you could also...not watch it?

You don't have to read my posts either.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Selene Spires wrote:


Why send the world's greatest light calvary on a charge against a enemy that knows no fear and will swarm them under?

They're dothraki. They kind of have one attack button.

Cavalry is best used to flank, not charge up the middle toward an enemy they can't see.


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No headpat for Ghost even? Jon, you are ice cold.

I know, they want the budget for the big BBQ but having Jon kneel before a touched up wolf model and give a few words would have been better, imo. Have Ghost bark to show he will be ok.


Damon Griffin wrote:


Cavalry is best used to flank, not charge up the middle toward an enemy they can't see.

Flanking might be better but Calvary is still VERY good at charging up the middle and breaking up the enemy. We saw that's how the dothraki roll in the loot train fight. They run at things and hit them till they break: usually before the dothraki even get there.

Unfortunately that absolutely doesn't work against a foe that has no fear. I don't know if we've seen dothraki really do anything else either in the books or the show. They're no the mongols or they'd have way more horse archery.

I agree that it's stupid not to have better more complicated manuevers but I don't think it's unrealistic that the dothraki as presented have a "when you have a really good hammer every problem is a nail" mentality and they ran into a pile of sand.


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Oh! after episode discussion from D&D about the whole fleet thing

360 Degree noscope:
It is the official word that Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet *wat*

Dark Archive

Inside the Episode: The Last of the Starks

Scarab Sages

I really enjoyed this episode, and its totally wrapping up plotlines in ways that are (to me) pretty satisfying.

Spoiler:
Arya will totally go back to being a FM when her business in the Capital is complete, assuming she survives, and maybe even if she doesn't. There is no where on Planetos for a ronin no-body, and she knows it. Poor Lord Baratheon though. Gaining the title was a death knell for Gendry's sex life. Those Baratheon men can't catch a break (GF ran off with Raegar, burned his kid alive, gay in a non-gay world before being murdered by a shadow baby, killed at his wedding by his mother-in-law, wife gets blown up inspiring a great leap of faith, and now... rejected by an assassin).

Raegal's death was a moment I was genuinely surprised. Yeah, we know at this point that the Grayjoys are ambush happy bastards, but scorpion fire out of nowhere was a nice change-up.

*Pours one out for Missandei* You deserved better than to be the last match atop Dany's tyrant pyre.


YOu can't backstab somebody with a balistae....


Best episode of the season but does Vaerys no longer have a spy network?

Euron's ability to ambush everyone everywhere is painfully contrived...

Also if I'm Cersei

Spoiler:
I wipe out Daenerys as she stands in front of that wall with those Scorpions. I would ask how they made so many so fast but <::shrug::>> there were a LOT of Dragonglass weapons made fast up north too.


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Oh and that line Sansa drops on the Hound was the best line she's had in the show or the books IMHO. Fantastic.


Yea, I wasn’t all that impressed last night I knew they were going to pass around the stupid until the last episode.

Scarab Sages

Storyteller Shadow wrote:

Best episode of the season but does Vaerys no longer have a spy network?

Euron's ability to ambush everyone everywhere is painfully contrived...

Also if I'm Cersei

** spoiler omitted **

Fast is pretty relative. We're talking about a show that condenses about a month of travel into a scene cut.


archmagi1 wrote:
Storyteller Shadow wrote:

Best episode of the season but does Vaerys no longer have a spy network?

Euron's ability to ambush everyone everywhere is painfully contrived...

Also if I'm Cersei

** spoiler omitted **

Fast is pretty relative. We're talking about a show that condenses about a month of travel into a scene cut.

That's why I'm not being TOO critical of it.

Sovereign Court

I feel they missed a huge opportunity here. Missandei* is a minor character really only important to a minor character... If I was the writer I would have had Jorrah survive the night king battle and he would have been Cersei's victim. I mean, if the point is to make Dany lose it, that would have been it. Also, Jorrah being executed would have had more impact for Tyrion as well. I know, I know, Jorrah died the way he wanted; but since when has anyone got what they wanted in GoT? Well, since tv writers took over, but seriously...


I did like how tentacle and suckered the balistae looked.

Dark Archive

Qyburn coming out of the that gate like he was the Mouth of Sauron was cool.

"My Master, Cersei the Great bids thee welcome" toothy smile.

"Is there any in this rout with authority to treat with me?"

"The Naathi was dear to thee I see. Know that she suffered greatly at the hands of her host" toothier smile.

"Aha, and who is this? Aerys's heir? It takes more to make a Queen than a mere broken baby Dragon."


Winterfell has Starbucks!


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Damon Griffin wrote:
Selene Spires wrote:
Why do you have your army outside the castle walls? There are reasons why you build walls after all.
It was established that Winterfell was not adequately provisioned for a siege, which is exactly what they'd have faced if they'd kept their forces inside the walls.

They still could have had far more active defenders on the walls inside and kept those outside the walls closer to them. The general tactics of the living left a lot to be desired.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Storyteller Shadow wrote:
Best episode of the season but does Vaerys no longer have a spy network?

Do you remember the episode where Qyburn took over the "little birds"?


David knott 242 wrote:


They still could have had far more active defenders on the walls inside and kept those outside the walls closer to them. The general tactics of the living left a lot to be desired.

There's a really good scene from the books that applies here. A bunch of old norther warriors are talking with the young guy from down south. The guy from down south is lamenting the 90% projected mortality rate.

The old northerner says... yeah. That's the idea. It's winter, I'm old. If I win I go home with glory and gold for my family to buy food. If I die it's one less mouth to feed.

Course that calculus doesn't really work when the other guy has mythic raise dead...


One Northern fighter said as much in the books when they were marching on Bolton. To the effect of, 'I won't survive the winter, all I want is to fell Bolton blood splash on my face when I hit them with my axe."

Dark Archive

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Podrick leaves with the girl who smiles at him and the one the Hound shooed off.

It’s a callback to this.


at this point I am mostly in it for the little character moments and fantasy eyecandy than for the actual plot. Those elements and the acting are overall solid, but everything else is kind of meh.

Particularly the "Wouldn't Jon make a great king!" angle the show has been pushing. Jon takes after the Starks, and consistently makes the same sort of decisions that ultimately got Eddard and Robb dead. On top of that, Jon really hasn't gotten that much of a big heroic moment...he's lucky more than anything else

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