Pathfinder Adventure Path #133: Secrets of Roderic's Cove (Return of the Runelords 1 of 6)

Set wrote:

So, technically, there could be *two* Runelords of Envy available to face...

Wait--the ancient Thassilonians had TWO Runelords of Envy? I'm so jealous...

See, this is how you get Runelords of Envy!

And Envy leads to Greed, which leads to, no wait, that's not it...

Hmm. And Dwarves have both Greed and Hatred as racial traits. I wonder if we are ever going to have a race with Pride as a racial trait? (Other than the Azlanti, obviously...)

DOT DOT DOT DOT DOT DOT DOT DOT DOT DOT DOT DOT DOT DOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are nearly 50 runelords who existed over the course of Thassilon's run, of which the majority we've said nothing about. More than the seven last ones will have roles to play in Return of the Runelords, I suspect. Alderpash included in perhaps a small way. We'll see!

Oh goodie. Also, sorry to have misread/misrepresented/misremembered what you said in your ask thread a while ago about Alderpash.

I can't wait to see what Adam Daigle does as an adventure writer!

In fact, is this his maiden voyage writing adventures...

I can't wait for y'all to see it!

And while this isn't the first adventure I've written, it's certainly the longest.

Just remember, only Pride and Lust had one Runelord each. And there's a reason for that. :P

But yeah, considering there's time travel, I'm hoping this means we'll actually get to see all seven of the original Runelords (Even if JJ has said that the original set weren't the most powerful, barring Xanderghul and Sorshen.)

Wow, 50 Runelords.

Wow, 50 Runelords.

We will need more pikes in the trophy room :-p

Wait 50?!! Holy crap on a stick! I mean I knew there were more than the original seven but...50?!!

50's a rough guess. I've worked out the exact number and all their names but I'm out sick today and can't check the file... but yeah. Turns out that if a nation's around for several centuries there's lots of time for even long-lived powerful wizards to cycle through a few leaders...

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Wait 50?!! Holy crap on a stick! I mean I knew there were more than the original seven but...50?!!

50's a rough guess. I've worked out the exact number and all their names but I'm out sick today and can't check the file... but yeah. Turns out that if a nation's around for several centuries there's lots of time for even long-lived powerful wizards to cycle through a few leaders...

*offers tummy wubs*

I don't know why people are so surprised. 50 is only seven runelords per sin. If a runelord is in power for say, 20 years (a pretty long time considering they're evil and thus assassinate each other), that would imply that Thassilon was around only for 7*20 = 140 years. I would've expected a much higher number for a 1200 year old realm, more on the order of 200-1000. Only 50 means almost 200 year tenures on the average, which is insanely long in a hostile environment.

I am so looking forward to this AP. I hope you get better soon, James!

I don't know why people are so surprised. 50 is only seven runelords per sin. If a runelord is in power for say, 20 years (a pretty long time considering they're evil and thus assassinate each other), that would imply that Thassilon was around only for 7*20 = 140 years. I would've expected a much higher number for a 1200 year old realm, more on the order of 200-1000. Only 50 means almost 200 year tenures on the average, which is insanely long in a hostile environment.

Ever tried to kill a moderately competent lvl 20 Wizard?

It's not easy.

Duh, but the implied 200 years per runelord is a VERY long time, and I would assume some even more moderately competent challengers might come around every few years.

Duh, but the implied 200 years per runelord is a VERY long time, and I would assume some even more moderately competent challengers might come around every few years.

Depends on how much effort the Runelords were putting into controlling or suppressing the sort of things that might plausibly challenge level 20 wizards.

I don't know why people are so surprised. 50 is only seven runelords per sin. If a runelord is in power for say, 20 years (a pretty long time considering they're evil and thus assassinate each other), that would imply that Thassilon was around only for 7*20 = 140 years. I would've expected a much higher number for a 1200 year old realm, more on the order of 200-1000. Only 50 means almost 200 year tenures on the average, which is insanely long in a hostile environment.

The numbers are a bit skewed - IIRC, Sorshen and Xanderghul are the original Runelords of Lust and Pride respectively, and they survived to Earthfall. That would be ~48 Runelords amongst the remaining five sins, with some of them having greater turnover than others - Wrath, as noted above, probably had quite a few, and I'd guess Envy did as well. Gluttony not so much - Zutha's a scary powerful guy, and having dominion over death itself suggests that turnover is a slow process.

Here's what I'd love to see. The battle with Sorshen is going against her, when she casts timestop, and wishes a few Runelords back into existence. Perfect way to bring back those fallen Runelords.

Here's what I'd love to see. The battle with Sorshen is going against her, when she casts timestop, and wishes a few Runelords back into existence. Perfect way to bring back those fallen Runelords.

How is she casting a 9th level Transmutation spell?

No.

What would be better is if some unknowing team of adventurers (say, around Book Two or Three) accidentally undid a 'time lock' that Thassilon had been 'sealed away' under and suddenly there was 'New Thassilon'... which was attempting to be conterminous with the Varisian region and dramatically bad results...

And added bonus, some of the Runelords don't like the way the world turned out and want it to *stop*.

so this statement is somewhat off--from--Words of the Ancients
Scores of fortress-like towers line the
edges of a deep ravine, each similar to the next but at
the same time unique—the result of their construction
by dozens of runelords of sloth over the course of
centuries.

I am SO looking forward to this AP!!

What would be better is if some unknowing team of adventurers (say, around Book Two or Three) accidentally undid a 'time lock' that Thassilon had been 'sealed away' under and suddenly there was 'New Thassilon'

I'd love to see an AP where the PCs screw up early on (bad information, deliberately misled, insurmountable challenge) and have to spend the rest of the AP fixing whatever they unleashed.

I don't know why people are so surprised. 50 is only seven runelords per sin. If a runelord is in power for say, 20 years (a pretty long time considering they're evil and thus assassinate each other), that would imply that Thassilon was around only for 7*20 = 140 years. I would've expected a much higher number for a 1200 year old realm, more on the order of 200-1000. Only 50 means almost 200 year tenures on the average, which is insanely long in a hostile environment.

Remember two that of the 7, two (Sorshen and Xanderghul) were never replaced; they started and ended Thassilon. So the remaining 48 or so are what's spread out over the years, really. It's true though that for most of them they ruled for centuries. Most of them. Some did not.

And it wasn't a "hostile environment" really either. No more so than, say, Cheliax or the like. Thassilon wasn't the wild west or a post apocalyptic warzone. It was a stable and healthy and vibrant nation.

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

What would be better is if some unknowing team of adventurers (say, around Book Two or Three) accidentally undid a 'time lock' that Thassilon had been 'sealed away' under and suddenly there was 'New Thassilon'

I'd love to see an AP where the PCs screw up early on (bad information, deliberately misled, insurmountable challenge) and have to spend the rest of the AP fixing whatever they unleashed.

Like the "You are all captured and put in prison and have to escape" plot, this is a plot line that works best when it rises organically in play and can be tailored by the GM as it unfolds.

Deliberately planning this, or setting up an adventure whose whole point is to make the PCs expend time and resources playing only to screw something up and then expect them to want to KEEP playing after they realized the GM has stacked the deck against them the first time is a good way to get a campaign an early grave after the players lose interest in my opinion.

But if it happens organically, and the players DON'T learn or believe that they were supposed to fail or do something foolish all along, the storyline can be really compelling and interesting.

It's just basically impossible to do in a published adventure.

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Wait 50?!! Holy crap on a stick! I mean I knew there were more than the original seven but...50?!!

50's a rough guess. I've worked out the exact number and all their names but I'm out sick today and can't check the file... but yeah. Turns out that if a nation's around for several centuries there's lots of time for even long-lived powerful wizards to cycle through a few leaders...

You’re out sick and you’re still on the boards answering questions?!

You, sir, are a mensch.

You’re out sick and you’re still on the boards answering questions?!

Turns out it's not a big deal to type a few lines of text when you're bundled in a big blanket with the heater on sitting in the comfort of your own home.

PAZ42 wrote:

Here's what I'd love to see. The battle with Sorshen is going against her, when she casts timestop, and wishes a few Runelords back into existence. Perfect way to bring back those fallen Runelords.

How is she casting a 9th level Transmutation spell?

Erm, Wish is universal, not transmutation. Also considering all the ridiculous contingencies the Runelords have, you'd need at least a Mythic Wish to get the job done.

Nathan Monson wrote:

PAZ42 wrote:

Here's what I'd love to see. The battle with Sorshen is going against her, when she casts timestop, and wishes a few Runelords back into existence. Perfect way to bring back those fallen Runelords.

How is she casting a 9th level Transmutation spell?

Erm, Wish is universal, not transmutation. Also considering all the ridiculous contingencies the Runelords have, you'd need at least a Mythic Wish to get the job done.

Time Stop is Transmutation, and one of Sorshen's forbidden schools.

I hope I'm not giving too much away, but no runelords appear in this adventure*. :)

* Unless James is a monster during development.

There might be an artifact, though.

Dark Midian wrote:

Nathan Monson wrote:

PAZ42 wrote:

Here's what I'd love to see. The battle with Sorshen is going against her, when she casts timestop, and wishes a few Runelords back into existence. Perfect way to bring back those fallen Runelords.

How is she casting a 9th level Transmutation spell?

Erm, Wish is universal, not transmutation. Also considering all the ridiculous contingencies the Runelords have, you'd need at least a Mythic Wish to get the job done.

Time Stop is Transmutation, and one of Sorshen's forbidden schools.

Being the Runelord of Lust, I'd hope she'd have crazy high Charisma (Or Pragmatic Activator) and ranks in UMD. :v

dot for dot sake. looking forward to train under the sorshen for those sweet ancient secrets of magic.

Samy wrote:

I don't know why people are so surprised. 50 is only seven runelords per sin. If a runelord is in power for say, 20 years (a pretty long time considering they're evil and thus assassinate each other), that would imply that Thassilon was around only for 7*20 = 140 years. I would've expected a much higher number for a 1200 year old realm, more on the order of 200-1000. Only 50 means almost 200 year tenures on the average, which is insanely long in a hostile environment.

Ever tried to kill a moderately competent lvl 20 Wizard?

It's not easy.

Many times.

Personally I've had the best luck with advanced Balors with quickened greater teleport and Improved Critical. Seven attacks with a vorpal weapon with a 17-20 crit range does wonders - the odds of not getting a critical hit are about 20%. And of course they travel in pairs ...

It's much harder when th PCs have mythic tiers, gotta tell ya. Freakin' mirror dodge, though I can always add Dual Initiative if I'm feeling especially vindictive.

It's a shame Paizo's largely given up on the Mythic stuff. After having done both epic and mythic, I still slightly prefer epic (ironically mythic makes gameplay even more complicated than epic did) but we're having a blast and the characters are doing some crazy-ass stuff.

Sorry for the tangent ... we now return to our regularly scheduled AP discussion :)

Though as always I'm looking forward to part 6 of this for material for my campaign!

Technically the vorpal weapon ability only functions on a natural 20(with successful crit confirmation).

Even at only 48 and even if more than half of those are from Wrath...that's STILL a great deal more turn over than you'd expect...

Also I appreciate Adam Daigle both curbing my expectations along with improving them with artifacts.

No Runelords were harmed in the making of this AP volume;)

No Runelords were harmed in the making of this AP volume;)

Of course not. That's the job of the PCs, if they do what they're supposed to do and are smart enough and lucky enough...something I wouldn't necessarily bet on if they run into Sorshen or Xanderghul or....

I desperately want to play through this AP if at all possible, especially because I played through RotRL with a PC who was, in a word, obsessed with Runelord Alaznist and actually abandoned the other PCs to try and wake her up. Hey, it seemed like a good idea at the time. Also there was pesh involved. A lot of pesh.

So yeah, with the potential for cameos from RotRL PCs, with mine from my playthrough having that crush on Alaznist, if Alaznist herself shows up, things will get interesting. XD

The announcement of this AP has renewed my determination to play through ROTRL and Shattered Star. I NEED THIS.

Xenocrat wrote:

Dark Midian wrote:

Nathan Monson wrote:

PAZ42 wrote:

Here's what I'd love to see. The battle with Sorshen is going against her, when she casts timestop, and wishes a few Runelords back into existence. Perfect way to bring back those fallen Runelords.

How is she casting a 9th level Transmutation spell?

Erm, Wish is universal, not transmutation. Also considering all the ridiculous contingencies the Runelords have, you'd need at least a Mythic Wish to get the job done.

Time Stop is Transmutation, and one of Sorshen's forbidden schools.

Being the Runelord of Lust, I'd hope she'd have crazy high Charisma (Or Pragmatic Activator) and ranks in UMD. :v

Furthermore, remember that Pathfinder changed the way Prohibited Schools work from 3.5. Sorshen can still cast Transmutation spells; she just has to spend two slots per spell to do it. And she can use scrolls, etc. just fine.

Dark Midian wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Dark Midian wrote:

Nathan Monson wrote:

PAZ42 wrote:

Here's what I'd love to see. The battle with Sorshen is going against her, when she casts timestop, and wishes a few Runelords back into existence. Perfect way to bring back those fallen Runelords.

How is she casting a 9th level Transmutation spell?

Erm, Wish is universal, not transmutation. Also considering all the ridiculous contingencies the Runelords have, you'd need at least a Mythic Wish to get the job done.

Time Stop is Transmutation, and one of Sorshen's forbidden schools.

Being the Runelord of Lust, I'd hope she'd have crazy high Charisma (Or Pragmatic Activator) and ranks in UMD. :v

Furthermore, remember that Pathfinder changed the way Prohibited Schools work from 3.5. Sorshen can still cast Transmutation spells; she just has to spend two slots per spell to do it. And she can use scrolls, etc. just fine.

The archetype for Thassilonian Magic (I don't remember the name) turns it back into truly forbidden territory. They get 2 slots per spell level for their chosen school, though.

Did they use that archetype for Karzoug in the Anniversary Edition? If not I'm not sure I'd expect that they'd do so for the others.

To the book!

Edit: They did!

I think it would be interesting if one or more Runelords weren't wizards.

Maybe throw a Sorcerer, Psychic, or Arcanist (especially an Arcanist) into the mix.

Yeah it would be nice seeing something other then a wizard especially necromancers.

Necromancers only annoy me when someone wants to play one.

I think it would be interesting if one or more Runelords weren't wizards.

Maybe even some commoners--their country relatives, like beer-swilling good old boy Billy Karzoug. You know...

...the Rubelords.

I'll show myself out.

captain yesterday wrote:

I think it would be interesting if one or more Runelords weren't wizards.

Maybe even some commoners--their country relatives, like beer-swilling good old boy Billy Karzoug. You know...

...the Rubelords.

I'll show myself out.

Yes, I'm sure they'll have a Vancaskerkin or twelve.

I think it would be interesting if one or more Runelords weren't wizards.

Maybe throw a Sorcerer, Psychic, or Arcanist (especially an Arcanist) into the mix.

Silksworn Occultist :P

I believe it has been stated that canonically all Runelords were always wizards. Hasn't stopped me from changing them in my own version, obviously, but by the book I doubt that's going to be altered.

Did they use that archetype for Karzoug in the Anniversary Edition? If not I'm not sure I'd expect that they'd do so for the others.

Karzoug technically didn't have it spelled out in his statblock, but a detailed perusal shows that as a transmuter, he didn't have any enchantment or illusion spells in his prepared list. I want to say that Krune actually did specifically say he was a Thassilonian conjurer and therefore had no illusion or evocation spells prepared. It's basically canon that all Runelords are Thassilonian specialist wizards, because they're obviously the ones that came up with it.

Thassilonian Specialist isn't actually an archetype, its just alternate casting system <_< So technically its more similar to Word Casting than archetypes.

All of RotR's Thassilonian wizards use it actually, including Mokmurian, Barl and that one necromancer in basement iirc