Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Taldor, the First Empire (PFRPG)

Who is this "she" everyone is talking about?

Princess Eutropia I believe

I'm starting a Taldor-based campaign right around now, so I wish this was already out. Will wait with bated breath for it and then can adjust/incorporate elements into my campaign as necessary...

Wouldn't it be more interesting if Eutropia was solidly Neutral instead of Evil or Good? Maybe make it so that while is she disgusted by the corruption and decline of Taldor she's still an imperialist that believes that Galt, Andoran, and Cheliax must one day rejoin the empire for their own good.

Hmm, no, I'd find her more interesting if she was Good and not only trying to save her nation but gain and help her nation's allies as well.

Taldor needs heroes.

Hmm, no, I'd find her more interesting if she was Good and not only trying to save her nation but gain and help her nation's allies as well.

Taldor needs heroes.

To each their own I suppose. But I like the notion that Taldor is a very complicated nation that's problems are not just a case of the nobility being Evil. Unlike Cheliax, Irrisen, Nidal, or Geb which are outright Evil because Asmoedus, Baba Yaga, Zon-Kuthon, or undead have just taken over the country, Taldor is in decline because various economic, social and political issues that cannot be easily fixed. There's no big bad in Taldor just lots of morally ambiguous intrigue and what's what makes it interesting and different to me.

Plus, having Princess Eutropia be the enlightened, forward thinking female ruler ironically enough feels kind of old hat given that White Estrid and Queen Telandia Edasseril already have that theme as well. That's why think making her a Neutral or Lawful Neutral aligned female character that's a determined yet ruthless reformer would be more innovative in Paizo's case. It could her challenging nuance and players something more complex to deal with. Besides, Neutrals and Lawful Neutrals are still totally heroes even if they a bit overly pragmatic.

Hope this makes sense, Rysky. And I hope we both kind of get what we want.

tl;dr - I hope Eutropia takes after Stannis Baratheon over Daenerys "White Savior" Targaryen.

Plus, having Princess Eutropia be the enlightened, forward thinking female ruler ironically enough feels kind of old hat given that White Estrid and Queen Telandia Edasseril already have that theme as well.

... having only two other enlightened/competent/forward thinking women leaders (and only one is Good) in the entire world doesn't make having a third an "old hat". Not even close.

Delightful wrote:

Plus, having Princess Eutropia be the enlightened, forward thinking female ruler ironically enough feels kind of old hat given that White Estrid and Queen Telandia Edasseril already have that theme as well.

... having only two other enlightened/competent/forward thinking women leaders (and only one is Good) in the entire world doesn't make having a third an "old hat". Not even close.

ONE other enlightened female, since White Estrid is, y'know, absolutely nothing like what he described as being out for herself. She just happens to be the one queen in a setting that mostly has kings.

Rysky wrote:

Delightful wrote:

Plus, having Princess Eutropia be the enlightened, forward thinking female ruler ironically enough feels kind of old hat given that White Estrid and Queen Telandia Edasseril already have that theme as well.

... having only two other enlightened/competent/forward thinking women leaders (and only one is Good) in the entire world doesn't make having a third an "old hat". Not even close.

ONE other enlightened female, since White Estrid is, y'know, absolutely nothing like what he described as being out for herself. She just happens to be the one queen in a setting that mostly has kings.

And has an awesome Linnorm buddy ^w^

(Sadly this is the extent of my knowledge about White Estrid :()

Delightful wrote:

Plus, having Princess Eutropia be the enlightened, forward thinking female ruler ironically enough feels kind of old hat given that White Estrid and Queen Telandia Edasseril already have that theme as well.

... having only two other enlightened/competent/forward thinking women leaders (and only one is Good) in the entire world doesn't make having a third an "old hat". Not even close.

There's also Queen Galfry of Mendev! I see your point though. I find the lack of female heads of state that are Good is more of a result that most rulers are non-Good in Golarion to begin with. My point was though with those examples still being around why can't Taldor have a different type of female heroine that's a bit on the more morally ambiguous said? To me that gives greater roleplay opportunities for players to affect whether her possible future AP in Taldor has her be more pragmatic or idealistic.

Plus, Paizo doesn't exist in a vacuum. A lot of other creative works seem determined to have princess characters be the young, willful idealists, and while at first I think that trope was a great progressive archetype that moved away from the passive virgin trope it has become in my opinion a new box that female characters are forced into.

But, hey, this all relative opinion and desire. Hopefully no matter what happens Paizo does something interesting.

Crystal Frasier wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Delightful wrote:

Plus, having Princess Eutropia be the enlightened, forward thinking female ruler ironically enough feels kind of old hat given that White Estrid and Queen Telandia Edasseril already have that theme as well.

... having only two other enlightened/competent/forward thinking women leaders (and only one is Good) in the entire world doesn't make having a third an "old hat". Not even close.

ONE other enlightened female, since White Estrid is, y'know, absolutely nothing like what he described as being out for herself. She just happens to be the one queen in a setting that mostly has kings.

And has an awesome Linnorm buddy ^w^

(Sadly this is the extent of my knowledge about White Estrid :()

She's actually really cool! Besides taming (or befriending) a linnorm, she pulled off an awesome raid on Nidal's capital, broke a Chelish blockade at the Arch of Aroden and sold all her sweet loot in Absalom. She also thinks magic is neat so I suppose she's kind of nerd too.

Going with the general vibe that good-aligned rulers are rare (presumably) because their values tend to clash with a certain ruthlessness and pragmatism that seems to be necessary to achieve and/or maintain power, it would certainly be interesting to see how they pull it off.

The bureaucrat on the throne by day, crime-fighting vigilante by night could be a thing, but it's also kind of stereotypical. A leader who subtly and openly empowers others (supporting a free and independent press, strengthening civil society, financing lawyers that defend the fundamental freedoms of the people in court, patronage of like-minded individuals etc.) would be more interesting.

Normally, the big reveal ("she was behind all of this the whole time!") is reserved for the villainess. I wonder if it could work the other way around as well (the PCs suddenly gaining a lot of respect for the queen as they figure out that she is the brilliant mastermind working behind the scenes to promote her vision of benevolent rulership).

I know close to nothing about Taldor outside of what is in the Inner Sea World Guide... ><'

This book will certainly help me a lot. I hope there are illustrations for the most important NPCs - at least for Stavian III and Eutropia, I'm really found of illustrations for the relevant characters in a setting.

It's funny how I can relate Eutropia's name to utopia and entropy... =D

The name actually means "versatile". It's an Roman or Ancient Greek name, and indeed there was a Roman princess of that name, a half-sister of Constantine the Great.

While I'm personally sick to death of the exact troupe Rysky is asking for here, I guess the best route, and one that I think would work very well for a book on Taldor would be to present a lot of options suggesting and hinting at both options being very valid possibilities.

A little bit more back on topic, one of the aspects of Taldor I'd like to see emphasized is the idea that they are a huge percentage of patrons for various ideas, enterprises, the arts, expeditions, etc. . . comes from Taldor or Taldor's nobility and riches. That Taldor is still very much interested in advancing cultural advancement, education, and artistry, and despite being an empire in decline, is still first and foremost in these fields.

I've also been very intrigued by the concepts of the Bearded and Unbearded. Especially if viewed similar to some of the things from Kingdom of Heaven (Does making someone a Knight make them a better fighter? -> YES!) or A Knight's Tale. I both loved the idea that it presented a form of meritocracy where anyone could earn a power/influence/nobility by exceptional actions, but also that it can be used to remove potentially key figures from rebelling or causing trouble, or to cause rivals more trouble.

I also really liked that Grand Prince Stavian III was having an issue with an heir, as being a patrilineal society would really play against not only most other nations, but especially Qadira.

Knightly Orders is a must. But also the military. Because Taldor has travelled to, warred with, and incorporated just about everyone's warriors, I'd expect one of the huge benefits that Taldor's military is know for is it's ability to improvise against most other styles other nations are known for, and having taken some of the better aspects of their fighting styles and made it part of their common training. A strong look at enough material to play a military or knightly campaign would be great, and I think fit very well in this book.

Additionally the concept of the Ulfen Guard. Additionally other Taldan factions, groups, sects, etc. . . We really don't need much on The Lion's Blades, but they and the Ulfen Guard can't really be it.

Strong looks at what Taldor does, has, and is strong or good at, and NOT what it isn't, used to do, or used to be, (except for historical references).

While I'm personally sick to death of the exact troupe Rysky is asking for here,

Where and what are all the other examples of this "Good Princess saves her country from Evil/Corrupt family or other nobles trope" in recent memory? Because I can't really think of any, especially not in Pathfinder.

Where and what are all the other examples of this "Good Princess saves her country from Evil/Corrupt family or other nobles trope" in recent memory? Because I can't really think of any, especially not in Pathfinder.

Even less than once is too much for a certain mindset of people.

What I would like to see is princess Eutropia being someone like queen Elizabeth or Victoria a woman of power seeking to revolutionize Taldan society.

While that is a good idea, I don't think your examples are terribly good. Victoria was the essence of conservatism, Elizebeth 1 was largely interested in staying alive , and so set a moderating course between the policies of her brother and sister and in the environment of the radical changes made by her father , and Elizebeth II is a truly constitutional monarch careful to have no opinion on political matters (in public)

Quote:

Where and what are all the other examples of this "Good Princess saves her country from Evil/Corrupt family or other nobles trope" in recent memory? Because I can't really think of any, especially not in Pathfinder.

Even less than once is too much for a certain mindset of people.

Actually, no ma'am. It and similar tropes are something we have been bombarded with for years, from Quest for Camelot to Star Wars (ALL), to Frozen, to Mulan. It is, HOWEVER, NOT the point of this thread, and I'm making an effort not to go off topic.

Neither Mulan nor the forgettable protagonist of Quest for Camelot were particularly princess-y. Nor does Princess Leia, in her combat fatigues with blaster pistol in hand, strike me as particularly trope-laden. (And neither Rey nor Jyn can even barely be considered princesses.) Frozen, maybe; I haven't seen it yet. So there's possibly one.

1,000 bonus points for using the word "Actually" in your post instead of merely implying it, though.

If we're going to start pulling in out-of-Golarion references, then I've been bombarded by "competent woman seeks to rule, archaic rules and a heavily ingrained patriarchy stop her" since November. I'm f$*%ing tired of it. Don't even claim a couple Disney movies top that.

Given that Taldor is the country closest to "traditional fantasy" tropes and all of the heavily male dominated stories that come from that, yes, I'd like to see something different. There are plenty of interesting things that can come out from Princess Eutropia being good - leadership is hard and full of tough decisions. She doesn't need to be the villain to do that. (And we really don't need that for PFS, given the direction the Sovereign Court storyline has gone.)

Neither Mulan nor the forgettable protagonist of Quest for Camelot were particularly princess-y. Nor does Princess Leia, in her combat fatigues with blaster pistol in hand, strike me as particularly trope-laden. (And neither Rey nor Jyn can even barely be considered princesses.) Frozen, maybe; I haven't seen it yet. So there's possibly one.

1,000 bonus points for using the word "Actually" in your post instead of merely implying it, though.

Again, for a certain category of people, any example of women not being evil schemers is part of some "tired trope" or just an imposition on their fun.

If we're going to start pulling in out-of-Golarion references, then I've been bombarded by "competent woman seeks to rule, archaic rules and a heavily ingrained patriarchy stop her" since November. I'm f$+@ing tired of it. Don't even claim a couple Disney movies top that.

Firstly, what exactly do you think trope means? :p

Lets be clear here. I have zero problem with her being good, or a good aligned princess, or prince or whatever. I just do not find it at all interesting, especially as she is so perfectly poised to be such a great villain. Making her the "competent woman seeks to rule, archaic rules and a heavily ingrained patriarchy stop her" is boring as shit and ultimately a let down.

Granted, this is obviously not a universal view, but, to me, it's just very weak storytelling. HOWEVER, ONCE AGAIN, THE POINT IS THAT THAT IS NOT THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD.

It's also telling that you see "decent good-aligned princess" as a tired trope. That doesn't mean an uncomplicated character, or a character that doesn't make mistakes or have misguided policies as as ruler.... I'm just "blergh" with continuing to have women be corrupt or otherwise evil rulers.

Lets be clear here. I have zero problem with Taldor being a stifling patriarchy. I just do not find it at all interesting, especially as it is so perfectly poised to be such a great geopolitical force. Allowing it to be "competent woman seeks to rule, archaic rules and a heavily ingrained patriarchy stop her" is boring as s$$* and ultimately a let down.

Granted, this is obviously not a universal view, but, to me, it's just very weak storytelling. HOWEVER, ONCE AGAIN, THE POINT IS THAT THAT IS NOT THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD.

As a hero, Eutropia is poised to make much more interesting decisions. Even the goal of her assuming the throne is liable to throw Taldor into civil war. Who knows what negative side effects her ideas for reforming the noble classes might have. Having a Good alignment doesn't mean characters have to support her.

Having a Good alignment doesn't mean characters have to support her.

Especially since the few storylines we have of her from PFS has been focused around how she's having lots of trouble doing that and who she has to make alliances with in order to help out with that goal. That's super interesting!

Meanwhile, on the "More Information about Taldor's power blocs front"... the Faction Guide presented 2-page spreads on the Kitharodian Academy, Lion Blades, and Ulfen Guards. Shockingly, since it was also one of Mark Moreland's first projects at Paizo, I suspect he may have some passing familiarity with the content. :) I would expect capsule summaries of these groups, with the interested reader being directed to the Faction Guide for more details.

Taldor's Knighthood was touched on in Knights of the Inner Sea (along with those of other nations).

The Kitharodian Acedemy makes a return appearance in Inner Sea Intrigue.

The Taldor Player Companion has more setting content than current Player Companions do, largely because the early ones had to do more of the "introducing X nation" work than the later ones. I am hopeful that this book will expand on those concepts, but there's actually quite a bit of cultural and historical info in the Player Companion already.

About Eutropia we've been told this supplement won't change the political situation of Taldor as a Country so I don't get why people talk about what should Eutropia do when she gets the Throne. She's not going to get it it the near future if ever.

Personally I feel like she should be neutral. We know she wants the throne and is currently searching for legal precedents legally cementing her claim. She's not in the best position right now and seems willing to make bold moves to improve her situation.
I think she needs to be some sort of foil for her father. The grand prince is CN and he's described as follows in the wiki:

As a ruler, Stavian III is as dissolute as the rest of his nation, and prone to much bitterness. He is an awkward man who dallies in frivolous activities and surrounds himself with sycophants, while the actual management of Taldor is left to the bureaucracy. Despite his licentious behaviour, Stavian III has proven himself a cunning administrator and has strengthened the position of emperor since the weak rule of his father, Stavian II

He works as a dissolute if (sometimes) shrewd ruler who doesn't really care for Taldor's current state of affairs as long as he gets to keep the power. I think Eutropia should be someone who wants to bring back Taldor's glory, but that doesn't mean she should be good alligned. The hard decisions required for ruling a Country like Taldor don't go well with good allignment imo (and besides she's said to be willing to go to war if she doesn't get the throne once her father is dead).

besides she's said to be willing to go to war if she doesn't get the throne once her father is dead).

Being willing to go to war would keep people from having a 'good' alignment?

Rogar Valertis wrote:

besides she's said to be willing to go to war if she doesn't get the throne once her father is dead).

Being willing to go to war would keep people from having a 'good' alignment?

Depends on the reason. As I read it she's willing to cause a civil war with potentially thousands of casualities and, given how Taldor is surrounded by enemies at every side, to cause her nation's final collapse just to get a throne she feels she rightfully deserves. That's not how I define "good" in my games. There's nothing selfless in her reasoning as presented.

Are we going to get troops with some sort of beard powered attack.

And an update of the magical walking divan. :-)

Put me in the "Eutropia as driven, ruthless, and self-sacrificing for the greater good of Taldor" category. Somewhat like Elizabeth I (at least the movie version of her). Not necessarily nice, but not evil or even selfish... just driven. Willing to make tough decisions for the greater good. Drag Taldor into the modern age, whether it's ready or not. She could be both a friend and a foil, depending on the situation.

I'm also for Taldor being mostly anti-Sarenrae. It takes a while to get over a conquest/re-conquest. I like the complexity that not every good god is welcomed in every country. And, other than halfling slavery, the Inner Sea is pretty light on persecution, particularly religious. It doesn't have to be public heretic burning or anything, just illegal and frowned on by the general populace. Again, something that I think would add to Taldor's complexity as a solidly Neutral nation.

And the drow. And Blood Mistress Jakalyn of Mediogalti. And the Widow Queen of Isger. And Arazni in geb. And Areelu Vorlesh in the Worldwound.

Paizo's "trope" is really "women make evil and corrupt rulers." Having a good female ruler is what would actually turn our norm on its head.

They tend to get into wars more often than men, if you think war is evil, then I guess the trope is a bit on the nose.

Crystal Frasier wrote:

And the drow. And Blood Mistress Jakalyn of Mediogalti. And the Widow Queen of Isger. And Arazni in geb. And Areelu Vorlesh in the Worldwound.

Paizo's "trope" is really "women make evil and corrupt rulers." Having a good female ruler is what would actually turn our norm on its head.

They tend to get into wars more often than men, if you think war is evil, then I guess the trope is a bit on the nose.

Right...

What was this thread about originally?

I had something for this.

This is totally random, but I invision Eutropia as a Sailor Moon type Princess, mild young lady by day kick butt magical girl by night!

That would be funny if she turned out to be a vigilante:)

Funny for you, maybe, but not so funny for her enemies. Are you sure you aren't one of them?

What about making her an Alchemist with the Mad Scientist archetype. Or what about having her as a Silksworn Occultist. No wait, make her a Cayden Cailean Cleric with the Brewkeeper prestige class!

Magical girls are awesome but I think Eutropia deserves to be much weirder (and cooler) than that, right?

Or an Agathiel Vigilante.

I would say she should be a vigilante(magical child), kineticist, or bard(maybe with some kind of princess archetype).

....err...or just an NPC with levels of aristocrat and only a few non npc class levels (Bard maybe?).

I mean optimally any AP about Taldor should star the PC's. In which case Eutropia really shouldn't be the one charging and and constantly saving the day.

The main reason I was not really a fan of the Princess was I thought the Grand Prince would make a perfect Vigilante, sort of similar to Bruce Wayne in the Dark Knight, where as Grand Prince he pretends to be a decadent and somewhat powerless ruler and minorish mage, but at night takes to the streets. He was the first person I thought of when the class was being discussed and developed.

What if both where Vigilantes, neither knowing the truth about the other?

....err...or just an NPC with levels of aristocrat and only a few non npc class levels (Bard maybe?).

I mean optimally any AP about Taldor should star the PC's. In which case Eutropia really shouldn't be the one charging and and constantly saving the day.

Agreed.. the nature of complex political rivalries often means that the leading figures are held at bay by each other... leaving the active roles to their agents (PCs in some cases).

I still hope to someday see a class that is tied to the use of Capital (Goods, Influence, Labor, and Magic as well as gold) from Ultimate Campaign ... and a practical set of NPCs tied to Kingdom Roles (so the "Marshal" faction is lobbying for increased spending on X while the "Grand Admiral" faction is pushing for Y).

Or an Agathiel Vigilante.

Wait. That's the archetype that makes you a holy warrior furry superhero, right?

OMG! If Paizo does that I am so giving them all my money!

It would be a great opportunity for pseudo-furry representation in Paizo product!

Dooooooo eet.

....err...or just an NPC with levels of aristocrat and only a few non npc class levels (Bard maybe?).

I mean optimally any AP about Taldor should star the PC's. In which case Eutropia really shouldn't be the one charging and and constantly saving the day.

Having PC class levels doesn't mean any of that. Look at any AP, you'll find tons of characters with PC class levels who don't do that.

....err...or just an NPC with levels of aristocrat and only a few non npc class levels (Bard maybe?).

I mean optimally any AP about Taldor should star the PC's. In which case Eutropia really shouldn't be the one charging and and constantly saving the day.

Since when having PC levels means a NPC is going to steal the spotlight from the PCs?

I really want her to be a Bloodrager now.