Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Taldor, the First Empire (PFRPG)

I'm very curious about the internal politics of the Empire. What factions exist in the Senate? among the governors? What hoops and levers must a person be aware of to function in society?

I'm finishing up the History of Rome podcast and in the middle of Downton Abbey, so I'm imagining Taldor as a mashup between the political and economic situations around the fall of Rome and post-war Britain.

I'm looking forward to learning more about Taldon; it's good to know about Andoran's future territory. ;)

When Ultimate Intrigue came out, Taldor was where I imagined using all the archetypes and character options to the fullest. What I want most from this book is a robust political landscape capable of showcasing courtly and covert heroes.

It would amuse me greatly if the bureaucracy of Taldor was detailed as an extension of the patronage system from Qadira, Jewel of the East.

It would amuse me greatly if the bureaucracy of Taldor was detailed as an extension of the patronage system from Qadira, Jewel of the East.

Dooooooo eet.

Taldor, The first empire of the Inner Sea

Ahem.

Paizo wrote:

Taldor, The first empire of the Inner Sea

Ahem.

I created the Inner Sea when I ended you.

Okay, let's consider migrating the other book topic ideas to this wishlist thread or start a thread dedicated to voicing support for a particular subject. This should really be for Taldor talk. What else would you like to see in this book?

To be honest, I really hope to see more than a tiny bit of prejudice against the faith of Sarenrae in The Empire. The past attempt to sweep it under the rug was,. . . not very good or interesting.

I'd also like to see Taldor as a viable (and rising) power in the world.

Turn the Paizo norm on it's head and have Princess Eutropia be the true villain behind the scenes trying to keep Taldor from truly rising from the ashes.

Knightly Orders.

Options for ranks and titles.

A LOT of story seeds for Taldor rising.

A LOT of snoody, high brow distain for it's childish colonies like Cheliax and Andoran.

Perhaps most important, and something Paizo has kind of always failed at, showing a lot of good reasons that Taldor is important and relevant to the setting. Taldor has always been the nation/faction that has held the most potential in the setting, and yet, it's also been mainly the nation that's not touched with a 10ft pole for "reasons". Lets change that.

Thassilonian Empire wrote:

Paizo wrote:

Taldor, The first empire of the Inner Sea

Ahem.

I created the Inner Sea when I ended you.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh. You had help.

I'm looking forward to learning more about Taldon; it's good to know about Andoran's future territory. ;)

That's a really funny way of describing being brought back in the fold.

I don't have anything specific exactly in mind for what I would like with the book, but I would like to see it be more GM/flavor heavy than a lot of player options. I feel like at least some CS books have tipped the other way more often lately.

A while back I created a thread dedicated to Taldor and how to better define it as a part of the setting worth adventuring in.
I hope it can be of use and maybe provide some ideas on how to develop Taldor further.

I'd also like to see Taldor as a viable (and rising) power in the world.

Turn the Paizo norm on it's head and have Princess Eutropia be the true villain behind the scenes trying to keep Taldor from truly rising from the ashes.

Perhaps most important, and something Paizo has kind of always failed at, showing a lot of good reasons that Taldor is important and relevant to the setting. Taldor has always been the nation/faction that has held the most potential in the setting, and yet, it's also been mainly the nation that's not touched with a 10ft pole for "reasons". Lets change that.

It's not really the most important, not anymore anyway. It's in decline. If you want to see all their achievements and potential look through the various books that detail their history in the Inner Sea. Taldor used to be important and have potential. Used to.

Taldor used to be the most powerful empire in the Inner Sea. Now it's been in decline for a few thousand years yet it's still a regional power with strength roughly comparable to Andoran, Qadira and Cheliax, at least in terms of military power. It's true Taldor is in decline while nations like Andoran seem ascendant (and Cheliax might be too thanks to its fiendish overlords) but Taldor is still very much relevant.

The fact it took it a few thousand years, invasion and backstabbing included, to reduce it to its current situation, yet the country managed to stay relevant anyway tells you how powerful and rich Taldor was during its zenith.

I guess we're using different types of relevant here.

To me, Taldor is "relevant" in that it held on and still exists as a much. much smaller country, but it's not a mover and shaker like other countries (Cheliax immediately coming to mind).

Cheliax moves and shakes what Taldor established. It is easy to forget that the common tongue of the Inner Sea is Taldane. While their military might and political clout may have waned, their cultural influence left a lasting mark on the region.

I would like to see at least some mention of the consequences of that influence and what agents of Taldor are attempting out in the world. Is Grand Prince Stavian still competing with agents of Cheliax, Andoran, Osirian, and Qadira for control of Absalom? Are there surviving noble families in Andoran still loyal to the Empire?

Taldor seems like the sort of setting tailor-made for political intrigue, so I'm hoping for lots of stuff involving Ultimate Intrigue, various factions within Taldor, and a high degree of backstabbing.

(I'm also hoping this is leading to a Taldor AP in the future. Political intrigues are my jam.)

While the focus should be on Taldor, I would like to see a section that describes the Taldan impact and continuing influence on the development of law, bureaucracy, philosophy, architecture, and arts in Avistan (not unlike how Roman culture has shaped western civilization until modern times).

I would also like to see the introduction of a new philosophical tradition that reflects the people's mentality and helps to explain their resilience (Roman stoicism seems like a good fit for patriotic Taldans.)

Cheliax moves and shakes what Taldor established. It is easy to forget that the common tongue of the Inner Sea is Taldane. While their military might and political clout may have waned, their cultural influence left a lasting mark on the region.

I would like to see at least some mention of the consequences of that influence and what agents of Taldor are attempting out in the world. Is Grand Prince Stavian still competing with agents of Cheliax, Andoran, Osirian, and Qadira for control of Absalom? Are there surviving noble families in Andoran still loyal to the Empire?

Wait, isn't Cheliax actually the Taldor and the country calling itself Taldor today is just a break away remnant that clung to the name after the civil war, or am I getting my history mixed up?

KingOfAnything wrote:

Cheliax moves and shakes what Taldor established. It is easy to forget that the common tongue of the Inner Sea is Taldane. While their military might and political clout may have waned, their cultural influence left a lasting mark on the region.

I would like to see at least some mention of the consequences of that influence and what agents of Taldor are attempting out in the world. Is Grand Prince Stavian still competing with agents of Cheliax, Andoran, Osirian, and Qadira for control of Absalom? Are there surviving noble families in Andoran still loyal to the Empire?

Wait, isn't Cheliax actually the Taldor and the country calling itself Taldor today is just a break away remnant that clung to the name after the civil war, or am I getting my history mixed up?

Cheliax was a province that broke free and swallowed a lot of other provinces in a civil war.

KingOfAnything wrote:

Cheliax moves and shakes what Taldor established. It is easy to forget that the common tongue of the Inner Sea is Taldane. While their military might and political clout may have waned, their cultural influence left a lasting mark on the region.

I would like to see at least some mention of the consequences of that influence and what agents of Taldor are attempting out in the world. Is Grand Prince Stavian still competing with agents of Cheliax, Andoran, Osirian, and Qadira for control of Absalom? Are there surviving noble families in Andoran still loyal to the Empire?

Wait, isn't Cheliax actually the Taldor and the country calling itself Taldor today is just a break away remnant that clung to the name after the civil war, or am I getting my history mixed up?

What do you even mean by "the Taldor"? Cheliax broke away from the Empire when an upstart governor realized the opportunity that a war with Qadira offered. Taldor could not make war on two fronts, and so the Cheliax rebels won their independence.

And that happened before or after Aroden's death?

I think you'll find that Cheliax is fond of... correcting their official history books, to not confuse their citizens.

Rest assured, Taldor, home of Oppara and the Grand Prince himself, is the true Taldor. Cheliax is just in its "rebellious" phase, and will doubtlessly grow out of it in time.

The seat of Power for Taldor is/was Oppara; Cheliax was the break away nation, which in turn splintered into several other nations. Taldor wasn't the country to break away.

And that happened before or after Aroden's death?

Like a thousand years before.

Its like if the US, not long after declaring independence, convinced Canada, the imperial government in India, and the early Australian settlement efforts to also abandon the UK and follow the US lead instead.

Then the Statute of Liberty was supposed to animate and lead us all to an even more glorious future, but instead it fell over. This kicked off the US civil war, at which point the other former UK colonies went independent.

I guess Qadira is France in this analogy as the doorstep antagonist of the UK?

And that happened before or after Aroden's death?

Before, and eventually the nation that Aroden would rule according to the Starfall Doctrine moved to Cheliax.

My hope for the Taldor book is that the general of their army is a middle aged or old Fighter 4/Expert 10 or something similar with high mental attributes.

Okies, need to go back and parse through the timeline.

John Compton wrote:

Okay, let's consider migrating the other book topic ideas to this wishlist thread or start a thread dedicated to voicing support for a particular subject. This should really be for Taldor talk. What else would you like to see in this book?

To be honest, I really hope to see more than a tiny bit of prejudice against the faith of Sarenrae in The Empire. The past attempt to sweep it under the rug was,. . . not very good or interesting.

I'd also like to see Taldor as a viable (and rising) power in the world.

Turn the Paizo norm on it's head and have Princess Eutropia be the true villain behind the scenes trying to keep Taldor from truly rising from the ashes.

Knightly Orders.

Options for ranks and titles.

A LOT of story seeds for Taldor rising.

A LOT of snoody, high brow distain for it's childish colonies like Cheliax and Andoran.

Perhaps most important, and something Paizo has kind of always failed at, showing a lot of good reasons that Taldor is important and relevant to the setting. Taldor has always been the nation/faction that has held the most potential in the setting, and yet, it's also been mainly the nation that's not touched with a 10ft pole for "reasons". Lets change that.

I agree with pretty much all this. Sarenrae being a persecuted faith in Taldor is much much more interesting to me than the generic acceptance we got in Inner Sea Gods. It also makes sense. The Cult of the Dawnflower is currently trying its damndest to conquer Taldor. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to embrace a religion whose followers are hell-bent on occupying you. And before anyone points out that the mainstream Sarenites don't approve of the Cult, that doesnt change the fact that the Cult still has an enormous amount of pull with Qadira's government. They are a national threat to Taldor and should be treated as such.

I also agree that Taldor rising up from the ashes would be nice. It would also give the setting an antagonistic nation that isnt evil. While I love Chelaix, it'd be nice to have a big bad empire who isn't into humam sacrifice and mustache twirling.

Looks like a great source book!

DM Beckett wrote:

I'd also like to see Taldor as a viable (and rising) power in the world.

Taldor's whole thing though is that they are in decline. They were one of the biggest and strongest nations and now they're not.

DM Beckett wrote:

Turn the Paizo norm on it's head and have Princess Eutropia be the true villain behind the scenes trying to keep Taldor from truly rising from the ashes.

Gods I hope not. Working with Eutropia to save her kingdom from corrupt nobility would make for an awesome adventure.

DM Beckett wrote:

Perhaps most important, and something Paizo has kind of always failed at, showing a lot of good reasons that Taldor is important and relevant to the setting. Taldor has always been the nation/faction that has held the most potential in the setting, and yet, it's also been mainly the nation that's not touched with a 10ft pole for "reasons". Lets change that.

It's not really the most important, not anymore anyway. It's in decline. If you want to see all their achievements and potential look through the various books that detail their history in the Inner Sea. Taldor used to be important and have potential. Used to.

The issue is, Taldor is often described and presented in rather negative ways. Being a nation in decline works if the setting continues to evolve and move on in time. It does not work well in a setting that is mainly a constant snapshot, especially when most of the flavor we are more told than shown is basically, "its sort of like _____, but worse/less instead".

And I personally find the idea that her being the evil behind the throne to undermine the country's rise and her father much more interesting an AP idea.

Okies, need to go back and parse through the timeline.

The seat of Aroden's worship did move to Cheliax. But, that was after Chelish independence by a few hundred years, I think.

I'd like to see who's powers are rising in Taldor, who are the disruptors in Taldor. Are the merchant class starting to try and displace the aristocracy? Who is trying to push Taldor to a new golden age?

And I personally find the idea that her being the evil behind the throne to undermine the country's rise and her father much more interesting an AP idea.

Oh god I hope not. Given that one of the storylines that Taldor does have right now is "The king doesn't have a heir because he doesn't have a son. I mean, he has a perfectly good daughter, but women can't lead." It's a really tired and annoying trope, and you have to be careful that you don't accidentally promote the "women can't lead" part of that.

Also, that would be awkward for PFS canon, which has already been pushing the PFS Sovereign Court faction behind the Princess.

That doesn't mean that there's not a storyline behind the whole court intrigue/line of succession question...

Like, there's zig-zagging, but "Princess Eutropia is evil" is a little bit too much there.

DM Beckett wrote:

And I personally find the idea that her being the evil behind the throne to undermine the country's rise and her father much more interesting an AP idea.

Oh god I hope not. Given that one of the storylines that Taldor does have right now is "The king doesn't have a heir because he doesn't have a son. I mean, he has a perfectly good daughter, but women can't lead." It's a really tired and annoying trope, and you have to be careful that you don't accidentally promote the "women can't lead" part of that.

Also, that would be awkward for PFS canon, which has already been pushing the PFS Sovereign Court faction behind the Princess.

That doesn't mean that there's not a storyline behind the whole court intrigue/line of succession question...

** spoiler omitted **

Like, there's zig-zagging, but "Princess Eutropia is evil" is a little bit too much there.

I think that I would have to agree as it also seem to kind of step into the realm of what they do in Cheliax.

"Princess Eutropia is evil" would also be sort of lazy. We already have Ileosa and Abigail Thrune. We don't really need another "female monarch is totes evil"

"Princess Eutropia is evil" would also be sort of lazy. We already have Ileosa and Abigail Thrune. We don't really need another "female monarch is totes evil"

Don't forget Elvanna and Irrisen.

I think Holomag and Qadira are the only non-Evil matriarchies Golarion has...

MMCJawa wrote:

"Princess Eutropia is evil" would also be sort of lazy. We already have Ileosa and Abigail Thrune. We don't really need another "female monarch is totes evil"

Don't forget Elvanna and Irrisen.

I think Holomag and Qadira are the only non-Evil matriarchies Golarion has...

Qadira and Kelesh are not even explicitly matriarchal. :-)

They're matrilineal (you're a member of your mother's family/tribe/house, and you're a citizen if your mother's a citizen and not one if she's not), and because it's matrilineal, inheritance rights are (usually) through the maternal line, but there's nothing preventing men from holding leadership positions. (If you run the numbers, named leaders in Qadira should be fairly gender-balanced.)

Matrilineality can make a society lean matriarchal, but that's not a given.

And the drow. And Blood Mistress Jakalyn of Mediogalti. And the Widow Queen of Isger. And Arazni in geb. And Areelu Vorlesh in the Worldwound.

Paizo's "trope" is really "women make evil and corrupt rulers." Having a good female ruler is what would actually turn our norm on its head.

Rysky wrote:

MMCJawa wrote:

"Princess Eutropia is evil" would also be sort of lazy. We already have Ileosa and Abigail Thrune. We don't really need another "female monarch is totes evil"

Don't forget Elvanna and Irrisen.

I think Holomag and Qadira are the only non-Evil matriarchies Golarion has...

Qadira and Kelesh are not even explicitly matriarchal. :-)

They're matrilineal (you're a member of your mother's family/tribe/house, and you're a citizen if your mother's a citizen and not one if she's not), and because it's matrilineal, inheritance rights are (usually) through the maternal line, but there's nothing preventing men from holding leadership positions. (If you run the numbers, named leaders in Qadira should be fairly gender-balanced.)

Matrilineality can make a society lean matriarchal, but that's not a given.

Ah, Okies.

And the drow. And Blood Mistress Jakalyn of Mediogalti. And the Widow Queen of Isger. And Arazni in geb. And Areelu Vorlesh in the Worldwound.

Paizo's "trope" is really "women make evil and corrupt rulers." Having a good female ruler is what would actually turn our norm on its head.

Do eet.

DO EET.

Queen Telandia Edasseril and Queen Galfrey are both good (though one might argue that they use a certain stereotype).

To be fair, good rulers of any gender are a rare commodity. Most are neutral or evil.

Edit: Doing a quick search in the Pathfinderwiki using the keywords "heads of state", "good", and "male/female" delivers three female rulers and seven male rulers of good alignment.

Because the conversation has trended in this direction, and because I want to manage everyone's expectations, it is important to note that this book will not reflect any change in Taldor's head of state. That's the type of large-scale sociopolitical change we generally handle through adventures (either an AP, like Reign of Winter did for Irrisen, or as the seasonal focus of a Pathfinder Society season), so—evil or not—Eutropia won't be making any plays on the throne in this volume.

Will we be getting any information on her though?

Yes, she's important enough to Taldor that a 64-page book about the nation would be remiss not to include her fairly prominently. That doesn't mean she'll get stats, necessarily, but she'll certainly be included as a player in any relevant plots she may be involved in, in the government overview, and elsewhere that it's appropriate. It is Taldor, The First Empire, not Eutropia, the First Princess, however, and I'll do what I can to keep her from stealing the limelight. All these Taldans and their desire to be the center of attention!

Because the conversation has trended in this direction, and because I want to manage everyone's expectations, it is important to note that this book will not reflect any change in Taldor's head of state. That's the type of large-scale sociopolitical change we generally handle through adventures (either an AP, like Reign of Winter did for Irrisen, or as the seasonal focus of a Pathfinder Society season), so—evil or not—Eutropia won't be making any plays on the throne in this volume.

That's more than fine but I hope we get a glimpse of her plans and personality. After all, in a place like Taldor most people scheme, allignment notwithstanding, and powerful nobles scheme more than everyone else.

Also a description of the various factions competing for power through Country and court would be extremely welcome (at least to me)

Yes, she's important enough to Taldor that a 64-page book about the nation would be remiss not to include her fairly prominently. That doesn't mean she'll get stats, necessarily, but she'll certainly be included as a player in any relevant plots she may be involved in, in the government overview, and elsewhere that it's appropriate. It is Taldor, The First Empire, not Eutropia, the First Princess, however, and I'll do what I can to keep her from stealing the limelight. All these Taldans and their desire to be the center of attention!

Yay-wait...

And the drow. And Blood Mistress Jakalyn of Mediogalti. And the Widow Queen of Isger. And Arazni in geb. And Areelu Vorlesh in the Worldwound.

Paizo's "trope" is really "women make evil and corrupt rulers." Having a good female ruler is what would actually turn our norm on its head.

Not that it in any way invalidates the point Crystal makes above, but just to add a few faces to the discussion, we've also got:

Good Women Rulers
Crusader Queen Galfrey of Mendev (LG)
Queen Telandia Edasserilof Kyonin (NG)

Nonevil/Noncorrput Women Rulers
White Estrid of the Linnorm Kings (CN)
Zamere, Queen of Lamasara/Thuvia (???, possibly good)
Iranez of the Orb/Nex (N?)

There should be more than that, for sure.

Crystal Frasier wrote:

And the drow. And Blood Mistress Jakalyn of Mediogalti. And the Widow Queen of Isger. And Arazni in geb. And Areelu Vorlesh in the Worldwound.

Paizo's "trope" is really "women make evil and corrupt rulers." Having a good female ruler is what would actually turn our norm on its head.

Not that it in any way invalidates the point Crystal makes above, but just to add a few faces to the discussion, we've also got:

Good Women Rulers
Crusader Queen Galfrey of Mendev (LG)
Queen Telandia Edasserilof Kyonin (NG)

Nonevil/Noncorrput Women Rulers
White Estrid of the Linnorm Kings (CN)
Zamere, Queen of Lamasara/Thuvia (???, possibly good)
Iranez of the Orb/Nex (N?)

There should be more than that, for sure.

*looks at list of Good/Noble Women rulers*

*looks at list of Evil/Corrupt Women rulers*

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeah....

Yep. Definitely something to address as time goes by.

Also, we haven't put enough focus on many/any of the women on the second list, so we're not even taking maximum advantage of the few we do have.

Who is this "she" everyone is talking about?