Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Taldor, the First Empire (PFRPG)

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Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Taldor, the First Empire (PFRPG)
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Taldor Endures!

The first—and at one point, largest—empire in Avistan after devastation of Earthfall, Taldor has stood for millennia, and though its neighboring nations snicker at its lavish parties and out-of-touch nobility, none dare challenge the mother empire's might! With 6 millennia of history spanning the breadth of a continent, Taldor is a land of long-buried secrets and ruins, partnered with modern cutthroat dramas and political action. Secrets and treasure abound across Taldor—many forgotten, but far more deliberately buried. Will you fight to preserve the glorious traditions of the past, or will you pave the way for a reformed Taldor to attain new heights?

Taldor is the dynamic setting for the War for the Crown Adventure Path, making this comprehensive guide to the nation's geography, politics, and history a perfect resource for that campaign, as well as for many Pathfinder Module adventures! Inside this book you'll find:

  • A thorough gazetteer of Taldor's major prefectures and provinces, including details on the reigning nobles of each and over 70 points of interest across the nation, from Antios's Crown and its endless royal necropolis to the militarized city of Zimar.
  • An overview of Taldor's government, foreign relationships, and society.
  • Nearly a dozen adventure sites tied to Taldor's past glories and modern decay, from ruined cities to lost valleys of the dead.
  • Nine new monsters perfectly adapted to life in Taldor, including the corrupting giniver, perfectly suited to hiding in plain sight, and testaments to noble excess such as the titanboar and the blood-bathing baetriov.

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Taldor, The First Empire is intended for use with the Pathfinder campaign setting, but it can be easily adapted to any fantasy world.

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-999-8

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscription.

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Taldar Land of Intrigue

4/5

Not one of my first choices(or second, third, etc.) but still a good read none the less.


Gives Taldor enough Detail to be Playable

4/5

I wrote a lengthy review that the website ate and I don't have the energy to redo it.

The short version is that previously published Taldor material was thin to the point that to set a game in Taldor you would have to basically create the nation from scratch. This book fixes that problem. If you want to run a game in Taldor it is essential, if you want to run a game in the Inner Sea where the PCs can go to Taldor it is very useful.


Glorious!

5/5

This book is rich with culture, history and geography! this reads like a novel, and I find every page containing interesting trivia and long awaited answers to my most Taldane of questions!

The Golden Age of Taldor map is brilliant, and we also get a full timeline for Taldor. Interactions with other cultures is discussed, and a section on religion give us hints on who is considered to be the true 'Taldan Pantheon' (with a satisfying nod to Aroden and its 'arcane' clerics... must... build... one... :) )

The map of Taldor and its prefectures will also become an invaluable tool to any GM running a game set there, which only further aggrandizes its sister achievement and masterpiece: a full geographical section on each prefecture of Taldor, as well as supplementaty information on the provinces (apparently in Taldor, both Bill and Hillary bow to the elephant cavalry!). This section is, for the lack of a better word, a veritable tour-de-force!

Then we have a section on various sites within the Empire, and the coolest harpy cleric of Groetus I've ever seen (when she told you she'd give you the moon she wasn't kidding gents!) This section is a great idea generator for GMs wishing to run their own campaigns or supplement published Taldor-based adventures with a spiffy sidequest or two...

At the end we have a small bestiary which will allow druids and rangers to proudly call their next pet 'titanboar' or 'fading fox' or 'emperor stag'. Selective breeding is a thing in Taldor, and not only for their horses, but for their game too! but for the rest of the bestiary I'll stay silent so as not to spoil that most excellent new bathrobe wearing undead. 'New bathrobe'-wearing undead; or new 'bathrobe-wearing undead', as in new undead? hmmm... hmmm.... who can tell? [/goldblum mode]

Taldor deserved a lore-only book like this. Your mechanical queries can be addressed by the dozens of books preceding this one, but the knowledge gained within these pages will turn the most bland barbarian into a hardcore or unchained Ulfen devotee of the Lion Throne!

Taldor is Avistan.


Mixed bag.

3/5

Lots of flavor. Lots of geography. Not much substance. If you are running a game in Taldor, it's probably a good idea to get this book.

The bestiary in the back feels out of place. IMO use that space to talk about the specifics of Taldor nobility.

There are no mechanics in this book (save the bestiary), which makes it feel out of place IMO. A lot of Campaign Setting books have mechanics in them these days.

Bit of an odd duck. 3 out of 5 stars.


Disappointed

1/5

I was really hyped to hear one of my favorite locales on Golarion was getting revisited. After all it had been more than 8 years since Taldor was explored and given the new 68 page format of the country sourcebooks I assumed many details could be explored.

Unfortunately this book did not impress me at all. It was lackluster and pretty bland, no wow, no pizzazz. It did not inspire any additional interest in Taldor.

The book is divided into four parts so Ill briefly talk about each of them without giving too much away.

Life in Taldor – The first section details a history of the people of Taldor and lightly touches on the nobility and titles of Taldor. I was especially disappointed in this. Nobility and titles in Taldor are a cornerstone of this nation, something that make it distinctive in character from other nations, a highlight of that nation and yet the titles section was given a half-page description of generic noble titles, many titles previously describe we not even written about or mentioned.

The history of its Imperial house was non-existent, there was no list of Grand Princes, nothing descriptive of noble houses. I mean at this point I don’t know the name of the imperial house of Taldor because it remained as skeletal in description as what is found in the Inner Sea Guide. There was just nothing.

Gone was any mention of The Bearded as the ruling social class as it was ret-conned and minimized like the banning of Sarenrae. It fails to detail any of the more than 50 Grand Duchies and their locations other than 12 that correspond with the primary prefectures that it states are in the Empire.

The history section is mainly a descriptive rehash of events that have been already covered in other books, there were very few new events detailed within. More could have been included for an empire that is six thousand years old. The description of the Taldan people was literally two paragraphs long and the other two pages spent on the topic were on Chelaxans, Andorans and other surrounding nations and races.

Gazetteer – The Gazetteer generally does a good job at describing the twelve main prefectures of Taldor and it adds some details, new cities and locales and personalities. One of my favorite parts was some details on the ruling nobles of the prefectures. The cities described were mainly just that descriptions – there were no details on population, racial make-up, no flavoring whatsoever.

Adventures in Taldor - This part is a good but brief description of some key locales within Taldor. Each locale is given a one page description, with details and major NPC descriptions which is probably enough to get a GM to build his own adventures around.

Bestiary – This part is really unnecessary and should have been relegated to the upcoming AP. The monsters are lackluster. Taldor is supposed to be an Empire that tamed its heartland so the real monsters should be the humans within. But the book doesn’t do much in that aspect.

There is no mention of the lands directly to the east of the empire. How they may have affected the empire or anything. The updated map was pretty good I did like that they included some locals from the novels and pathfinder scenarios, except that Yanmass still has two locations in previous maps - one next to the river and another away from it. Even the novel Shy Knives have it located near the river. So I am not sure if Yanmass is a port city or a city in the center of the plains.

Overall this book is a huge disappointment for a nation whose ruling class is supposed to be a distinctive feature that is supposed to add to the character of Taldor. Yet it does very little to fill that gap, it leaves Taldor feeling generic and boring.


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Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm very curious about the internal politics of the Empire. What factions exist in the Senate? among the governors? What hoops and levers must a person be aware of to function in society?

I'm finishing up the History of Rome podcast and in the middle of Downton Abbey, so I'm imagining Taldor as a mashup between the political and economic situations around the fall of Rome and post-war Britain.


I'm looking forward to learning more about Taldon; it's good to know about Andoran's future territory. ;)

Sovereign Court

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

When Ultimate Intrigue came out, Taldor was where I imagined using all the archetypes and character options to the fullest. What I want most from this book is a robust political landscape capable of showcasing courtly and covert heroes.

It would amuse me greatly if the bureaucracy of Taldor was detailed as an extension of the patronage system from Qadira, Jewel of the East.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:
It would amuse me greatly if the bureaucracy of Taldor was detailed as an extension of the patronage system from Qadira, Jewel of the East.

Dooooooo eet.


10 people marked this as a favorite.
Paizo wrote:
Taldor, The first empire of the Inner Sea

Ahem.


11 people marked this as a favorite.
Thassilonian Empire wrote:
Paizo wrote:
Taldor, The first empire of the Inner Sea
Ahem.

I created the Inner Sea when I ended you.

Shadow Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
John Compton wrote:
Okay, let's consider migrating the other book topic ideas to this wishlist thread or start a thread dedicated to voicing support for a particular subject. This should really be for Taldor talk. What else would you like to see in this book?

To be honest, I really hope to see more than a tiny bit of prejudice against the faith of Sarenrae in The Empire. The past attempt to sweep it under the rug was,. . . not very good or interesting.

I'd also like to see Taldor as a viable (and rising) power in the world.

Turn the Paizo norm on it's head and have Princess Eutropia be the true villain behind the scenes trying to keep Taldor from truly rising from the ashes.

Knightly Orders.

Options for ranks and titles.

A LOT of story seeds for Taldor rising.

A LOT of snoody, high brow distain for it's childish colonies like Cheliax and Andoran.

Perhaps most important, and something Paizo has kind of always failed at, showing a lot of good reasons that Taldor is important and relevant to the setting. Taldor has always been the nation/faction that has held the most potential in the setting, and yet, it's also been mainly the nation that's not touched with a 10ft pole for "reasons". Lets change that.

Developer

14 people marked this as a favorite.
Earthfall wrote:
Thassilonian Empire wrote:
Paizo wrote:
Taldor, The first empire of the Inner Sea
Ahem.
I created the Inner Sea when I ended you.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh. You had help.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
AlgaeNymph wrote:
I'm looking forward to learning more about Taldon; it's good to know about Andoran's future territory. ;)

That's a really funny way of describing being brought back in the fold.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't have anything specific exactly in mind for what I would like with the book, but I would like to see it be more GM/flavor heavy than a lot of player options. I feel like at least some CS books have tipped the other way more often lately.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

A while back I created a thread dedicated to Taldor and how to better define it as a part of the setting worth adventuring in.
I hope it can be of use and maybe provide some ideas on how to develop Taldor further.

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
DM Beckett wrote:
I'd also like to see Taldor as a viable (and rising) power in the world.
Taldor's whole thing though is that they are in decline. They were one of the biggest and strongest nations and now they're not.
DM Beckett wrote:
Turn the Paizo norm on it's head and have Princess Eutropia be the true villain behind the scenes trying to keep Taldor from truly rising from the ashes.
Gods I hope not. Working with Eutropia to save her kingdom from corrupt nobility would make for an awesome adventure.
DM Beckett wrote:
Perhaps most important, and something Paizo has kind of always failed at, showing a lot of good reasons that Taldor is important and relevant to the setting. Taldor has always been the nation/faction that has held the most potential in the setting, and yet, it's also been mainly the nation that's not touched with a 10ft pole for "reasons". Lets change that.

It's not really the most important, not anymore anyway. It's in decline. If you want to see all their achievements and potential look through the various books that detail their history in the Inner Sea. Taldor used to be important and have potential. Used to.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Taldor used to be the most powerful empire in the Inner Sea. Now it's been in decline for a few thousand years yet it's still a regional power with strength roughly comparable to Andoran, Qadira and Cheliax, at least in terms of military power. It's true Taldor is in decline while nations like Andoran seem ascendant (and Cheliax might be too thanks to its fiendish overlords) but Taldor is still very much relevant.

The fact it took it a few thousand years, invasion and backstabbing included, to reduce it to its current situation, yet the country managed to stay relevant anyway tells you how powerful and rich Taldor was during its zenith.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I guess we're using different types of relevant here.

To me, Taldor is "relevant" in that it held on and still exists as a much. much smaller country, but it's not a mover and shaker like other countries (Cheliax immediately coming to mind).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Cheliax moves and shakes what Taldor established. It is easy to forget that the common tongue of the Inner Sea is Taldane. While their military might and political clout may have waned, their cultural influence left a lasting mark on the region.

I would like to see at least some mention of the consequences of that influence and what agents of Taldor are attempting out in the world. Is Grand Prince Stavian still competing with agents of Cheliax, Andoran, Osirian, and Qadira for control of Absalom? Are there surviving noble families in Andoran still loyal to the Empire?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Taldor seems like the sort of setting tailor-made for political intrigue, so I'm hoping for lots of stuff involving Ultimate Intrigue, various factions within Taldor, and a high degree of backstabbing.

(I'm also hoping this is leading to a Taldor AP in the future. Political intrigues are my jam.)

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

2 people marked this as a favorite.

While the focus should be on Taldor, I would like to see a section that describes the Taldan impact and continuing influence on the development of law, bureaucracy, philosophy, architecture, and arts in Avistan (not unlike how Roman culture has shaped western civilization until modern times).

I would also like to see the introduction of a new philosophical tradition that reflects the people's mentality and helps to explain their resilience (Roman stoicism seems like a good fit for patriotic Taldans.)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:

Cheliax moves and shakes what Taldor established. It is easy to forget that the common tongue of the Inner Sea is Taldane. While their military might and political clout may have waned, their cultural influence left a lasting mark on the region.

I would like to see at least some mention of the consequences of that influence and what agents of Taldor are attempting out in the world. Is Grand Prince Stavian still competing with agents of Cheliax, Andoran, Osirian, and Qadira for control of Absalom? Are there surviving noble families in Andoran still loyal to the Empire?

Wait, isn't Cheliax actually the Taldor and the country calling itself Taldor today is just a break away remnant that clung to the name after the civil war, or am I getting my history mixed up?

Liberty's Edge

Rysky wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:

Cheliax moves and shakes what Taldor established. It is easy to forget that the common tongue of the Inner Sea is Taldane. While their military might and political clout may have waned, their cultural influence left a lasting mark on the region.

I would like to see at least some mention of the consequences of that influence and what agents of Taldor are attempting out in the world. Is Grand Prince Stavian still competing with agents of Cheliax, Andoran, Osirian, and Qadira for control of Absalom? Are there surviving noble families in Andoran still loyal to the Empire?

Wait, isn't Cheliax actually the Taldor and the country calling itself Taldor today is just a break away remnant that clung to the name after the civil war, or am I getting my history mixed up?

Cheliax was a province that broke free and swallowed a lot of other provinces in a civil war.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:

Cheliax moves and shakes what Taldor established. It is easy to forget that the common tongue of the Inner Sea is Taldane. While their military might and political clout may have waned, their cultural influence left a lasting mark on the region.

I would like to see at least some mention of the consequences of that influence and what agents of Taldor are attempting out in the world. Is Grand Prince Stavian still competing with agents of Cheliax, Andoran, Osirian, and Qadira for control of Absalom? Are there surviving noble families in Andoran still loyal to the Empire?

Wait, isn't Cheliax actually the Taldor and the country calling itself Taldor today is just a break away remnant that clung to the name after the civil war, or am I getting my history mixed up?

What do you even mean by "the Taldor"? Cheliax broke away from the Empire when an upstart governor realized the opportunity that a war with Qadira offered. Taldor could not make war on two fronts, and so the Cheliax rebels won their independence.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

And that happened before or after Aroden's death?


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I think you'll find that Cheliax is fond of... correcting their official history books, to not confuse their citizens.

Rest assured, Taldor, home of Oppara and the Grand Prince himself, is the true Taldor. Cheliax is just in its "rebellious" phase, and will doubtlessly grow out of it in time.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

The seat of Power for Taldor is/was Oppara; Cheliax was the break away nation, which in turn splintered into several other nations. Taldor wasn't the country to break away.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
And that happened before or after Aroden's death?

Like a thousand years before.

Its like if the US, not long after declaring independence, convinced Canada, the imperial government in India, and the early Australian settlement efforts to also abandon the UK and follow the US lead instead.

Then the Statute of Liberty was supposed to animate and lead us all to an even more glorious future, but instead it fell over. This kicked off the US civil war, at which point the other former UK colonies went independent.

I guess Qadira is France in this analogy as the doorstep antagonist of the UK?

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
And that happened before or after Aroden's death?

Before, and eventually the nation that Aroden would rule according to the Starfall Doctrine moved to Cheliax.

Think of America and England, thats more or less what is going on with Cheliax and Taldor. The analogy works even better if you think the devil is orange.


My hope for the Taldor book is that the general of their army is a middle aged or old Fighter 4/Expert 10 or something similar with high mental attributes.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Okies, need to go back and parse through the timeline.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
DM Beckett wrote:
John Compton wrote:
Okay, let's consider migrating the other book topic ideas to this wishlist thread or start a thread dedicated to voicing support for a particular subject. This should really be for Taldor talk. What else would you like to see in this book?

To be honest, I really hope to see more than a tiny bit of prejudice against the faith of Sarenrae in The Empire. The past attempt to sweep it under the rug was,. . . not very good or interesting.

I'd also like to see Taldor as a viable (and rising) power in the world.

Turn the Paizo norm on it's head and have Princess Eutropia be the true villain behind the scenes trying to keep Taldor from truly rising from the ashes.

Knightly Orders.

Options for ranks and titles.

A LOT of story seeds for Taldor rising.

A LOT of snoody, high brow distain for it's childish colonies like Cheliax and Andoran.

Perhaps most important, and something Paizo has kind of always failed at, showing a lot of good reasons that Taldor is important and relevant to the setting. Taldor has always been the nation/faction that has held the most potential in the setting, and yet, it's also been mainly the nation that's not touched with a 10ft pole for "reasons". Lets change that.

I agree with pretty much all this. Sarenrae being a persecuted faith in Taldor is much much more interesting to me than the generic acceptance we got in Inner Sea Gods. It also makes sense. The Cult of the Dawnflower is currently trying its damndest to conquer Taldor. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to embrace a religion whose followers are hell-bent on occupying you. And before anyone points out that the mainstream Sarenites don't approve of the Cult, that doesnt change the fact that the Cult still has an enormous amount of pull with Qadira's government. They are a national threat to Taldor and should be treated as such.

I also agree that Taldor rising up from the ashes would be nice. It would also give the setting an antagonistic nation that isnt evil. While I love Chelaix, it'd be nice to have a big bad empire who isn't into humam sacrifice and mustache twirling.


Looks like a great source book!

Shadow Lodge

Rysky wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
I'd also like to see Taldor as a viable (and rising) power in the world.
Taldor's whole thing though is that they are in decline. They were one of the biggest and strongest nations and now they're not.
DM Beckett wrote:
Turn the Paizo norm on it's head and have Princess Eutropia be the true villain behind the scenes trying to keep Taldor from truly rising from the ashes.
Gods I hope not. Working with Eutropia to save her kingdom from corrupt nobility would make for an awesome adventure.
DM Beckett wrote:
Perhaps most important, and something Paizo has kind of always failed at, showing a lot of good reasons that Taldor is important and relevant to the setting. Taldor has always been the nation/faction that has held the most potential in the setting, and yet, it's also been mainly the nation that's not touched with a 10ft pole for "reasons". Lets change that.
It's not really the most important, not anymore anyway. It's in decline. If you want to see all their achievements and potential look through the various books that detail their history in the Inner Sea. Taldor used to be important and have potential. Used to.

The issue is, Taldor is often described and presented in rather negative ways. Being a nation in decline works if the setting continues to evolve and move on in time. It does not work well in a setting that is mainly a constant snapshot, especially when most of the flavor we are more told than shown is basically, "its sort of like _____, but worse/less instead".

And I personally find the idea that her being the evil behind the throne to undermine the country's rise and her father much more interesting an AP idea.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Okies, need to go back and parse through the timeline.

The seat of Aroden's worship did move to Cheliax. But, that was after Chelish independence by a few hundred years, I think.

Grand Lodge

I'd like to see who's powers are rising in Taldor, who are the disruptors in Taldor. Are the merchant class starting to try and displace the aristocracy? Who is trying to push Taldor to a new golden age?

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DM Beckett wrote:
And I personally find the idea that her being the evil behind the throne to undermine the country's rise and her father much more interesting an AP idea.

Oh god I hope not. Given that one of the storylines that Taldor does have right now is "The king doesn't have a heir because he doesn't have a son. I mean, he has a perfectly good daughter, but women can't lead." It's a really tired and annoying trope, and you have to be careful that you don't accidentally promote the "women can't lead" part of that.

Also, that would be awkward for PFS canon, which has already been pushing the PFS Sovereign Court faction behind the Princess.

That doesn't mean that there's not a storyline behind the whole court intrigue/line of succession question...

Tomb of the Iron Medusa:
It is left open that there may be a more "legitimate" heir than Stavian, and they could have a legitimate claim to the throne, emboldened by Qadira. Suddenly Princess Eutropia needs to walk the line of defending her father's claim so that she has a chance at becoming ruler, but also not not propping him up too much so that she can also stake her own claim.

Like, there's zig-zagging, but "Princess Eutropia is evil" is a little bit too much there.

Grand Lodge

Iammars wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
And I personally find the idea that her being the evil behind the throne to undermine the country's rise and her father much more interesting an AP idea.

Oh god I hope not. Given that one of the storylines that Taldor does have right now is "The king doesn't have a heir because he doesn't have a son. I mean, he has a perfectly good daughter, but women can't lead." It's a really tired and annoying trope, and you have to be careful that you don't accidentally promote the "women can't lead" part of that.

Also, that would be awkward for PFS canon, which has already been pushing the PFS Sovereign Court faction behind the Princess.

That doesn't mean that there's not a storyline behind the whole court intrigue/line of succession question...

** spoiler omitted **

Like, there's zig-zagging, but "Princess Eutropia is evil" is a little bit too much there.

I think that I would have to agree as it also seem to kind of step into the realm of what they do in Cheliax.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

"Princess Eutropia is evil" would also be sort of lazy. We already have Ileosa and Abigail Thrune. We don't really need another "female monarch is totes evil"

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
MMCJawa wrote:
"Princess Eutropia is evil" would also be sort of lazy. We already have Ileosa and Abigail Thrune. We don't really need another "female monarch is totes evil"

Don't forget Elvanna and Irrisen.

I think Holomag and Qadira are the only non-Evil matriarchies Golarion has...

Project Manager

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Rysky wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
"Princess Eutropia is evil" would also be sort of lazy. We already have Ileosa and Abigail Thrune. We don't really need another "female monarch is totes evil"

Don't forget Elvanna and Irrisen.

I think Holomag and Qadira are the only non-Evil matriarchies Golarion has...

Qadira and Kelesh are not even explicitly matriarchal. :-)

They're matrilineal (you're a member of your mother's family/tribe/house, and you're a citizen if your mother's a citizen and not one if she's not), and because it's matrilineal, inheritance rights are (usually) through the maternal line, but there's nothing preventing men from holding leadership positions. (If you run the numbers, named leaders in Qadira should be fairly gender-balanced.)

Matrilineality can make a society lean matriarchal, but that's not a given.

Liberty's Edge Developer

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And the drow. And Blood Mistress Jakalyn of Mediogalti. And the Widow Queen of Isger. And Arazni in geb. And Areelu Vorlesh in the Worldwound.

Paizo's "trope" is really "women make evil and corrupt rulers." Having a good female ruler is what would actually turn our norm on its head.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jessica Price wrote:
Rysky wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
"Princess Eutropia is evil" would also be sort of lazy. We already have Ileosa and Abigail Thrune. We don't really need another "female monarch is totes evil"

Don't forget Elvanna and Irrisen.

I think Holomag and Qadira are the only non-Evil matriarchies Golarion has...

Qadira and Kelesh are not even explicitly matriarchal. :-)

They're matrilineal (you're a member of your mother's family/tribe/house, and you're a citizen if your mother's a citizen and not one if she's not), and because it's matrilineal, inheritance rights are (usually) through the maternal line, but there's nothing preventing men from holding leadership positions. (If you run the numbers, named leaders in Qadira should be fairly gender-balanced.)

Matrilineality can make a society lean matriarchal, but that's not a given.

Ah, Okies.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Crystal Frasier wrote:

And the drow. And Blood Mistress Jakalyn of Mediogalti. And the Widow Queen of Isger. And Arazni in geb. And Areelu Vorlesh in the Worldwound.

Paizo's "trope" is really "women make evil and corrupt rulers." Having a good female ruler is what would actually turn our norm on its head.

Do eet.

DO EET.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Queen Telandia Edasseril and Queen Galfrey are both good (though one might argue that they use a certain stereotype).

To be fair, good rulers of any gender are a rare commodity. Most are neutral or evil.

Edit: Doing a quick search in the Pathfinderwiki using the keywords "heads of state", "good", and "male/female" delivers three female rulers and seven male rulers of good alignment.

Paizo Employee Developer

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Because the conversation has trended in this direction, and because I want to manage everyone's expectations, it is important to note that this book will not reflect any change in Taldor's head of state. That's the type of large-scale sociopolitical change we generally handle through adventures (either an AP, like Reign of Winter did for Irrisen, or as the seasonal focus of a Pathfinder Society season), so—evil or not—Eutropia won't be making any plays on the throne in this volume.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Will we be getting any information on her though?

Paizo Employee Developer

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Yes, she's important enough to Taldor that a 64-page book about the nation would be remiss not to include her fairly prominently. That doesn't mean she'll get stats, necessarily, but she'll certainly be included as a player in any relevant plots she may be involved in, in the government overview, and elsewhere that it's appropriate. It is Taldor, The First Empire, not Eutropia, the First Princess, however, and I'll do what I can to keep her from stealing the limelight. All these Taldans and their desire to be the center of attention!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Mark Moreland wrote:
Because the conversation has trended in this direction, and because I want to manage everyone's expectations, it is important to note that this book will not reflect any change in Taldor's head of state. That's the type of large-scale sociopolitical change we generally handle through adventures (either an AP, like Reign of Winter did for Irrisen, or as the seasonal focus of a Pathfinder Society season), so—evil or not—Eutropia won't be making any plays on the throne in this volume.

That's more than fine but I hope we get a glimpse of her plans and personality. After all, in a place like Taldor most people scheme, allignment notwithstanding, and powerful nobles scheme more than everyone else.

Also a description of the various factions competing for power through Country and court would be extremely welcome (at least to me)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Moreland wrote:
Yes, she's important enough to Taldor that a 64-page book about the nation would be remiss not to include her fairly prominently. That doesn't mean she'll get stats, necessarily, but she'll certainly be included as a player in any relevant plots she may be involved in, in the government overview, and elsewhere that it's appropriate. It is Taldor, The First Empire, not Eutropia, the First Princess, however, and I'll do what I can to keep her from stealing the limelight. All these Taldans and their desire to be the center of attention!

Yay-wait...

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

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Crystal Frasier wrote:

And the drow. And Blood Mistress Jakalyn of Mediogalti. And the Widow Queen of Isger. And Arazni in geb. And Areelu Vorlesh in the Worldwound.

Paizo's "trope" is really "women make evil and corrupt rulers." Having a good female ruler is what would actually turn our norm on its head.

Not that it in any way invalidates the point Crystal makes above, but just to add a few faces to the discussion, we've also got:

Good Women Rulers
Crusader Queen Galfrey of Mendev (LG)
Queen Telandia Edasserilof Kyonin (NG)

Nonevil/Noncorrput Women Rulers
White Estrid of the Linnorm Kings (CN)
Zamere, Queen of Lamasara/Thuvia (???, possibly good)
Iranez of the Orb/Nex (N?)

There should be more than that, for sure.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Erik Mona wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:

And the drow. And Blood Mistress Jakalyn of Mediogalti. And the Widow Queen of Isger. And Arazni in geb. And Areelu Vorlesh in the Worldwound.

Paizo's "trope" is really "women make evil and corrupt rulers." Having a good female ruler is what would actually turn our norm on its head.

Not that it in any way invalidates the point Crystal makes above, but just to add a few faces to the discussion, we've also got:

Good Women Rulers
Crusader Queen Galfrey of Mendev (LG)
Queen Telandia Edasserilof Kyonin (NG)

Nonevil/Noncorrput Women Rulers
White Estrid of the Linnorm Kings (CN)
Zamere, Queen of Lamasara/Thuvia (???, possibly good)
Iranez of the Orb/Nex (N?)

There should be more than that, for sure.

*looks at list of Good/Noble Women rulers*

*looks at list of Evil/Corrupt Women rulers*

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeah....

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

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Yep. Definitely something to address as time goes by.

Also, we haven't put enough focus on many/any of the women on the second list, so we're not even taking maximum advantage of the few we do have.


Who is this "she" everyone is talking about?

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