Pathfinder Player Companion: Antihero's Handbook (PFRPG)

Paladinosaur wrote:

Rysky wrote:

14 sided die wrote:

Yeah, ex-barbarian would be cool, but I think that'd be really out of place in this book, but maybe in a future one

How so? All the other ex-Archetypes are in this book.

the others imply losing faith or discipline. The barbarian most likely would go the other way.

I guess, yeah, but still.

I must say that, though at first I concurred with the other side, I am definitely with Risky on this after reading the ex-class archetypes' section.

An ex-Barbarian archetype would have fit the section perfectly

However, what delights me to no end is that they actually introduced here a new type of archetype, namely the ex-class archetype, with its specific rules, and the archetypes provided here only illustrate SOME of the ways a fallen PC can drift from their proper path.

We can now imagine (or get in future books) TONS of new ex-class archetypes. I hope we will

And I wish fervently that these rules make it to the PRD one day

Rysky wrote:

Paladinosaur wrote:

Rysky wrote:

14 sided die wrote:

Yeah, ex-barbarian would be cool, but I think that'd be really out of place in this book, but maybe in a future one

How so? All the other ex-Archetypes are in this book.

the others imply losing faith or discipline. The barbarian most likely would go the other way.

I guess, yeah, but still.

I must say that, though at first I concurred with the other side, I am definitely with Risky on this after reading the ex-class archetypes' section.

An ex-Barbarian archetype would have fit the section perfectly

However, what delights me to no end is that they actually introduced here a new type of archetype, namely the ex-class archetype, with its specific rules, and the archetypes provided here only illustrate SOME of the ways a fallen PC can drift from their proper path.

We can now imagine (or get in future books) TONS of new ex-class archetypes. I hope we will

And I wish fervently that these rules make it to the PRD one day

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus.

sorry if I missed it, but what's the corruption like? and the ex-paladin archetype and if it'd work with antipaladin (with or without minor tweaks)

sorry if I missed it, but what's the corruption like? and the ex-paladin archetype and if it'd work with antipaladin (with or without minor tweaks)

Can't really tell you much about the corruption but the ex-paladin (the Vindictive Bastard) is freakin hilarious. Basically you are not restrained/civil enough with people to actually hold to the codes and tend to solve problems that annoy you by punching them in the face rather than, ya know not hitting the paper boy who just said you smell funny. Basically you trade a lot of your holy powers for abilities beat the ever loving snot out of people who annoy you or hit you (whether or not your pissy attitude caused them to hit you though is another story) like getting a smite that works on anyone who's attacked you or your friends rather than just people who are evil, the ability to find your friends easily rather than detect evil, and learn how to gang up on people and potentially commit dirty tricks with teamwork feats (sans your allies having the feats) rather than gaining mercies.

That said, I don't think it's really appropriate for Antipaladins, but after reading through this I would love to see an archetype for an ex-antipaladin. Like an antipaladin to one of the demon lords or to a CN faith that is down for the power but can't bring themselves to go as far as an Antipaladin needs to go to keep those powers. Would totally be down to see an fallen antipaladin who basically feels weak because he's too merciful or, ya know, human, to keep to his vows.

"Fallen" Antipaladin of Nocticula would be freaking sweet.

The corruption is strange in its catalyst (being good but using, even unknowingly, Evil means to Good ends) and its final stage (so Evil you become a NPC).

I very much enjoyed the manifestations though. They do a pretty good depiction of what a self-righteous person turning to Evil will find themselves thinking and believing. Basically, you are convincing yourself and others of untruths, get a fraying temper and Evil creatures see something interesting in you.

Rysky wrote:

But seriously, that's an awesome archetype, it's up there with the Tortured Crusader for my favourite Paladin archetype.

Thankies to whoever wrote it!

You're welcome! It was my favorite of the ex-classes.

I just got my copy in the mail yesterday, and the fallen heroes archetypes are fantastic! I can't wait to make my first fallen cleric of entropy.

That said, I don't think it's really appropriate for Antipaladins, but after reading through this I would love to see an archetype for an ex-antipaladin. Like an antipaladin to one of the demon lords or to a CN faith that is down for the power but can't bring themselves to go as far as an Antipaladin needs to go to keep those powers. Would totally be down to see an fallen antipaladin who basically feels weak because he's too merciful or, ya know, human, to keep to his vows.

A human ex-antipaladin of Anghazan could be funky, all about primal strength and animal ferocity, just not really that into ape supremacy, being a human, and all, and so thinking of herself as more stealing the power of savagery (and thinking of humans who try and hide from the natural world behind city walls and laws and 'civilization' as being just fodder for the inevitable slaughter, because you can't legislate away a rampaging dinosaur, or any of the other amazingly powerful forces of natural savagery).

She'd be all 'strength, fury, savagery! civilization is weak!' and 'gorillas, meh.'

It'sLyz wrote:

Rysky wrote:

But seriously, that's an awesome archetype, it's up there with the Tortured Crusader for my favourite Paladin archetype.

Thankies to whoever wrote it!

You're welcome! It was my favorite of the ex-classes.

I just got my copy in the mail yesterday, and the fallen heroes archetypes are fantastic! I can't wait to make my first fallen cleric of entropy.

Yup, Channeler of the Unknown. Very nice archetype. What do you think of the Planar Extremist? It might be my fave in this book...that or the Channeler.

I like the Vigilante one very much. It is pretty iconic

Descriptive text aside...Channeler of the unknown is perfect for the Ur Priest idea I have been wanting to do for some time :P

Rysky wrote:

But seriously, that's an awesome archetype, it's up there with the Tortured Crusader for my favourite Paladin archetype.

Thankies to whoever wrote it!

You're welcome! It was my favorite of the ex-classes.

Seeing as you're in this thread, I have a few questions about the design of the archetype, if you don't mind answering (feel free not to):

Spoiler:

Rogue archetype gets a handful of supernatural/SLA abilities for covering their tracks (temporarily tamper with memories, alter bodies), and can prevent enemies from running away as well.

Can someone offer a bit more info on the rogue archetype's...

"Fallen" Antipaladin of Nocticula would be freaking sweet.

I imagine such a character would likely cover all the taste sensations: sweetness, sourness, saltiness, spicyness, and umami. ;)

I Imagine its things like hiding cause of death, or making them look like someone else.

After all, if your going to be killing witnesses, you would rather not have the deaths be put on your head.

doc the grey wrote:

That said, I don't think it's really appropriate for Antipaladins, but after reading through this I would love to see an archetype for an ex-antipaladin. Like an antipaladin to one of the demon lords or to a CN faith that is down for the power but can't bring themselves to go as far as an Antipaladin needs to go to keep those powers. Would totally be down to see an fallen antipaladin who basically feels weak because he's too merciful or, ya know, human, to keep to his vows.

A human ex-antipaladin of Anghazan could be funky, all about primal strength and animal ferocity, just not really that into ape supremacy, being a human, and all, and so thinking of herself as more stealing the power of savagery (and thinking of humans who try and hide from the natural world behind city walls and laws and 'civilization' as being just fodder for the inevitable slaughter, because you can't legislate away a rampaging dinosaur, or any of the other amazingly powerful forces of natural savagery).

She'd be all 'strength, fury, savagery! civilization is weak!' and 'gorillas, meh.'

S~*$ that's just the opener man.

An Ex-Antipaladin of Rovagug from an area plagued by colonialism who can't bring himself to apocalyptic fervor because he loves his family and can't stand the idea of ending the world and sacrificing them but knows its what his oppressors "deserve"

An Ex-Antipaladin of Socothbenoth noble from an oppressive regime who turns from his perversions after a horrible experience shocks him into the realization of the atrocities of his actions and now leans into the protection of various minority groups who are often exploited in his area due to their status and the fetishization of the taboo of it all. Maybe the catalyst also puts them into said minority as part of the process and informs on why he might not have fully let go of all of the ideals that made him an antipaladin. He's a victim using his victimhood to perpetuate the atrocity but hasn't quiet awoken to the ideas that these people are well, people like himself and that his endless vengeance might not be too narrow minded to really fix things (i.e. his violence might cause reprisals against the very people he's trying to protect and as such maintain or escalate the conflict rather than protect and change things for the better)

Ex-Antipaladin of Shax who becomes a pacifist after slaying his own guardian angel and with its dying actions convinces him of the vile depths of his own actions and triggers a change. A violent psychopath trying to reign in his murderous impulses cause he just realized that they were the thing keeping him from the real social connections he wanted to achieve and his indiscriminate killing was just the dark temptations an b%+#%&@$ he told himself to justify the behavior. But he can't totally control his urges and they are an essential part of him, so he kills in the name of whatever cause he thinks is good enough morally to get his skills, and maybe open enough to save his soul. Your plot is the struggle as a character lacking that moral compass of figuring out how to tell the difference between what is good and helpful and what is just fun and disturbing.

Ex-Antipaladin of Areshkagal who realized their obsession with riddles was an elitist way to justify oppressing and abusing those who she felt were too stupid to be worth equal treatment and now tries to use her immense analytical mind to solve unsolvable problems to help people while trying to curb their own elitism. Maybe even trying to solve the 23 riddles to then use the answers to best her.

The possibilities are endless and would be fun as hell to explore.

QuidEst wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Can someone offer a bit more info on the rogue archetype's... ** spoiler omitted **

Rysky, Vindictive Bastard wrote:

"Fallen" Antipaladin of Nocticula would be freaking sweet.

I imagine such a character would likely cover all the taste sensations: sweetness, sourness, saltiness, spicyness, and umami. ;)

Bonus points: The Fallen Antipaladin is a Ghoran.

Can someone offer a bit more info on the rogue archetype's... ** spoiler omitted **

Ah. Thanks Feros (and EACj).

I'm not seeing any sort of additional information for extra stuff related to a phantom with the Suffering emotional focus, such as Spirit-Bound Blade, Emotional Conduit, and Fractured Mind. Am I missing it or is it simply missing?

I'm not seeing any sort of additional information for extra stuff related to a phantom with the Suffering emotional focus, such as Spirit-Bound Blade, Emotional Conduit, and Fractured Mind. Am I missing it or is it simply missing?

It's simply missing.

This is bound to come up at some point so better to discuss it now:

If a Splintersoul Vigilante takes levels in Paladin, he counts as an ex-Paladin while in his social persona.

Does that qualify him therefore to take the Vindictive Bastard archetype while in social persona only?

It'sLyz wrote:

Rysky wrote:

But seriously, that's an awesome archetype, it's up there with the Tortured Crusader for my favourite Paladin archetype.

Thankies to whoever wrote it!

You're welcome! It was my favorite of the ex-classes.

Seeing as you're in this thread, I have a few questions about the design of the archetype, if you don't mind answering (feel free not to):

Why does the ex-paladin have limited duration solo tactics? Tactician or some variation thereof feels like it would make more sense to me.
Is Gang Up supposed to work if you haven't already smote the target?
Should you be able to have multiple uses of Gang Up simultaneously active?
Is the vindictive bastard supposed to receive spellcasting?

Well, let's see what I can do. I'll note that this is only the design/writing perspective, and the details of specific rules concerns are subject to your GM and decisions from developers and organized play staff.

We wanted to preserve the subtle difference between tactician and solo tactics, in that tactician grants your allies the benefit of the feat (for a longer period of time), and solo tactics does not. Ex-archetypes are specifically intended to be slightly less powerful than typical members of the class (if not, what's the benefit of all that moral quandary?) and so we opted for the less powerful version.

Vindy gains a smite bonus only while she has a smite in effect herself, so if the hasn't smote (smited?) anyone yet, she has no bonus to grant via Gang Up.

As for multiple uses of Gang Up, it would depend on whether you can have multiple uses of smite active at one time. I defer to the standard for whether a typical paladin can have multiple smite effects in place at one time. (I'm sure that conversation must have happened somewhere.)

If an archetype doesn't specifically replace or alter a class feature, it's still there; so yes, as written Vindy still has her spells.

This is bound to come up at some point so better to discuss it now:

If a Splintersoul Vigilante takes levels in Paladin, he counts as an ex-Paladin while in his social persona.

Does that qualify him therefore to take the Vindictive Bastard archetype while in social persona only?

What an interesting question.

Craig Tierney wrote:

It'sLyz wrote:

Rysky wrote:

But seriously, that's an awesome archetype, it's up there with the Tortured Crusader for my favourite Paladin archetype.

Thankies to whoever wrote it!

You're welcome! It was my favorite of the ex-classes.

Seeing as you're in this thread, I have a few questions about the design of the archetype, if you don't mind answering (feel free not to):

Why does the ex-paladin have limited duration solo tactics? Tactician or some variation thereof feels like it would make more sense to me.
Is Gang Up supposed to work if you haven't already smote the target?
Should you be able to have multiple uses of Gang Up simultaneously active?
Is the vindictive bastard supposed to receive spellcasting?

Well, let's see what I can do. I'll note that this is only the design/writing perspective, and the details of specific rules concerns are subject to your GM and decisions from developers and organized play staff.

We wanted to preserve the subtle difference between tactician and solo tactics, in that tactician grants your allies the benefit of the feat (for a longer period of time), and solo tactics does not. Ex-archetypes are specifically intended to be slightly less powerful than typical members of the class (if not, what's the benefit of all that moral quandary?) and so we opted for the less powerful version.

Vindy gains a smite bonus only while she has a smite in effect herself, so if the hasn't smote (smited?) anyone yet, she has no bonus to grant via Gang Up.

As for multiple uses of Gang Up, it would depend on whether you can have multiple uses of smite active at one time. I defer to the standard for whether a typical paladin can have multiple smite effects in place at one time. (I'm sure that conversation must have happened somewhere.)

If an archetype doesn't specifically replace or alter a class feature, it's still there; so yes, as written Vindy still has her spells.

Cool, thankies for chiming in again ^w^

Ilorin Lorati wrote:

I'm not seeing any sort of additional information for extra stuff related to a phantom with the Suffering emotional focus, such as Spirit-Bound Blade, Emotional Conduit, and Fractured Mind. Am I missing it or is it simply missing?

It's simply missing.

Just lovely.

Hunter archetype throws willing allies under the bus with something of a challenge ability, but directed at somebody else. Fun if you've got a cavalier or kinetic knight in the group, because those penalties stack. Includes a small spell failure chance, too. It's limited uses, but as much as you want on your poor, poor animal companion, you heartless jerk.

I'm playing a Hunter in Hell's Vengeance right now and we are about to finish book 1. Would this archtype be a good fit for that campaign. Would it be worth retraining into? What abilities does this archtype swap out?

QuidEst wrote:

Hunter archetype throws willing allies under the bus with something of a challenge ability, but directed at somebody else. Fun if you've got a cavalier or kinetic knight in the group, because those penalties stack. Includes a small spell failure chance, too. It's limited uses, but as much as you want on your poor, poor animal companion, you heartless jerk.

I'm playing a Hunter in Hell's Vengeance right now and we are about to finish book 1. Would this archtype be a good fit for that campaign. Would it be worth retraining into? What abilities does this archtype swap out?

There's nothing in the archetype that would make it more or less compatible than any other archetype for a Hunter in HV. It's usefulness would depend I guess on if you have other tanks in the party.

QuidEst wrote:

Hunter archetype throws willing allies under the bus with something of a challenge ability, but directed at somebody else. Fun if you've got a cavalier or kinetic knight in the group, because those penalties stack. Includes a small spell failure chance, too. It's limited uses, but as much as you want on your poor, poor animal companion, you heartless jerk.

I'm playing a Hunter in Hell's Vengeance right now and we are about to finish book 1. Would this archtype be a good fit for that campaign. Would it be worth retraining into? What abilities does this archtype swap out?

I'd say it works better than base hunter for certain concepts. If your character abuses their bond with their animal companion to use them as a tool, this is the archetype for you. (It can be used for much more pleasant concepts as well, but that stands out for an evil campaign.)

I was looking more to throw teammates under the bus, I'm using and archer build and like to put as much meat as possible between the targets and my PC.

Just it point out, the scapegoat abilities only work on a willing ally.

I liked the drawbacks and new traits more than I thought I would.

Just it point out, the scapegoat abilities only work on a willing ally.

Well that takes all the fun out of it. :(

I was looking more to throw teammates under the bus, I'm using and archer build and like to put as much meat as possible between the targets and my PC.

Yep, it does that pretty well, assuming your allies are okay with it.

No, it's a fun ability, you just can't troll other players with it.

Rysky, Vindictive Bastard wrote:

Just it point out, the scapegoat abilities only work on a willing ally.

Well that takes all the fun out of it. :(

You could also get player permission to treat their characters as willing even if, in-character, they aren't cool with being under-bussed.

No, it's a fun ability, you just can't troll other players with it.

Or, presumably, other enemies. That's probably why it went in, so you couldn't say "that mook over there is now my ally, kill him!"

Rysky wrote:

No, it's a fun ability, you just can't troll other players with it.

Or, presumably, other enemies. That's probably why it went in, so you couldn't say "that mook over there is now my ally, kill him!"

Even without the "willing" caveat the ability doesn't work like that, it gives a single opponent penalties against everyone but the scapegoat, it doesn't force them to attack anyone.

The Scapegoat ability is very similar to the D&D 4E "Mark" ability, except that the Hunter is using this ability on behalf of somebody else.

How are the poisons? My players may be coming up against some poison users and am curious if there are good ones. Plus, my personal Red Viper pc always needs more poisons.

The poisons mostly deal Conditions (shaken, sickened, staggered, blinded, flat-footed). It is an interesting change and actually much more in line with what poisons should be :-)

The poisons mostly deal Conditions (shaken, sickened, staggered, blinded, flat-footed). It is an interesting change and actually much more in line with what poisons should be :-)

Excellent. I like the idea of condition-based poisons better than ability-damage-based poisons simply because there's less round-by-round bookkeeping involved (sickened is always -2, a -1d2 to Dex each round may require adjusting effects every round or two...).

The poisons mostly deal Conditions (shaken, sickened, staggered, blinded, flat-footed). It is an interesting change and actually much more in line with what poisons should be :-)

I agree, although that's been the case for a while now. Paizo's been slowly reducing the number of simple "do ability score damage" poisons in favor of ones with weird side-effects or ones that do damage but in some weird way (like Arsenic). Gives me a lot of hope for the Poison handbook that's coming up.

My only issue with the ones in this book is that the concentrated laxative only sickens and nuseates. I think I can safely say if I had ingested a concentrated laxative, I'd be taking a lot more than one move action per turn.

Also, thank you for not including another Alchemist archetype in this book and just including a trio of actually really good discoveries!

Hi guys~ , I have a question to ask.

Vindictive Smite (Ex): A vindictive bastard is particularly ruthless against those who have harmed her or her allies. Once per day as a swift action, she can smite one target within sight who has dealt hit point damage to her or an ally. She adds her Charisma modifier to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to damage rolls against the target of her smite. In addition, while vindictive smite is in effect, the vindictive bastard gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) to her AC against attacks by the target of the smite.

If the target of vindictive smite has rendered an ally of the vindictive bastard unconscious or dead within the last 24 hours, the bonus on damage rolls on the first attack that hits increases by 2 for every paladin level she has.

The vindictive smite effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the vindictive bastard rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the vindictive bastard can invoke her vindictive smite one additional time per day, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.

Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.

In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.

The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level. Evil

So if a level 10 Vindictive Bastard uses his Vindictive Smite to attack a target who has rendered an ally of the vindictive bastard unconscious or dead within the last 24 hours, his first attack damage bonus is 30 or 20?

Thank you!

I just got this book and have a problem with the planar extremist wording. It says their Eidolon gets the share spells ability, but the share spells ability says it only works for spells on the summoner spell list. Is this intended?

I wouldn't think so, since both Animal Companions and Phantoms get the Share Spells ability. It's best to read it as "share spells on the Companion granting Class's spell list" I would say.

I love the Nasty Alchemy esp the Dung Gernades.

Thank you!! The dung bomb was my favorite part, too.

I finally have the physical book and I love it. The new backgrounds and flaws, the new archetypes especially the ex-class ones, spells, magic items, it's all great.

I have a question about the Vindictive Bastard archetype. It feels odd to me for them to still have their spellcasting given that they lose almost everything else they got from being a paladin. Would it be too powerful to give them access to a bonus combat feat starting at level 4 and one more every three levels from there in place of their spellcasting as is done with the Insinuator anti-paladin?

Descriptive text aside...Channeler of the unknown is perfect for the Ur Priest idea I have been wanting to do for some time :P

AHA! This is what I was looking for... I probably wasted a post or two trying to explain the concept I was after in the JJ thread ...

So apparently the Fluff I was after is in the following place...Ur-Priest link
Specifically:
"Atypical Ur-Priests
This article is mainly about the ur-priest that seeks to gain earthly power by siphoning off the power of the gods. But there is another type: the ex-cleric of a dead god. In this case their deity died, disappeared, or faded from lack of worship; the ur-priest siphons power to keep his divine powers working while he tries to resurrect his god, or elevate a new deity to replace it."

Planar Extremist says in its' Planar Bond feature that if they choose to have an eidolon, it "must be of a subtype whose alignment exactly matches the alignment of the planar extremist".

Because an Angel subtype can be any good, can I choose an Angel Eidolon for a Lawful Good Planar Extremist, or does it absolutely have to be an Archon (Lawful Good only)?
Addendum:
If the eidolon must be an Archon, what happens to the subtype's additional evolution point, since Planar Bond says that the eidolon never gains an evolution pool?
Do I still get to add one free evolution for the Archon eidolon (limited to the 1-point evolution list) or is the Archon eidolon shafted sideways and simply doesn't gain an improvement at 4th level while the other 3 extreme alignment subtypes (Azata, Devil, and Demon) gain resistance 10 to two appropriate energy types?