Pathfinder Player Companion: Monster Hunter's Handbook (PFRPG)

2.70/5 (based on 7 ratings)
Pathfinder Player Companion: Monster Hunter's Handbook (PFRPG)
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Slay the Beast!

With claws, scales, muscle, and more, monsters hold an unfair advantage in the life-and-death confrontations between adventurer and adversary. Turn the tables on them with Pathfinder Player Companion: Monster Hunter's Handbook, which is loaded with cutting-edge techniques for tracking beasts, slaying behemoths, and outwitting otherwise-overpowering creatures. Whether you have to skewer a basilisk or splatter an ooze, this volume contains everything you need!

Inside this book, you'll find:

  • Techniques and tools for finding and neutralizing a wide range of aberrations, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, and more.
  • New archetypes and other character options that help identify monsters' weaknesses and use their strengths against them.
  • Feats, items, and spells that enable you to harvest trophies from your latest kill and reap power from these mementos.

This Pathfinder Player Companion is intended for use with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and the Pathfinder campaign setting, but can easily be incorporated into any fantasy world.

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-933-2

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Player Companion Subscription.

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Average product rating:

2.70/5 (based on 7 ratings)

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Not Great

2/5

I had a really long post, but the internet ate it.
Anwyays, briefer this time:
This book has a bunch of generic monster hunting stuff which would be useful for most characters, which is alright.
It has trophy rules and an Occultist archetype that uses them. These rules are very general, and are closely related to the Wondrous Item crafting rules.
It has some feats for outdoorsy types (the almost tactician for hunters seems alright).
It has an inquisitor archetype (actually decent if you're in the right campaign) and a druid archetype (average) for fighting aberrations.
It has a druid archetype and a bard archetype for fighting fey, both could probably be decent in a mostly fey campaign.
It has an unarmed combat style based around intercepting and grabbing foes, a feat that allows for combat relevant wild empathy, and two useless rouge talents.
It has a weird archetype for alchemists that downgrades bombs slightly (dot instead of aoe splash, acid damage only), that instead of getting brew potion can harvest goop from a dead ooze to make a better bomb. While this is a cool idea, the CR limitation of the bottled ooze extract ameks this ability super unreliable for players. The name is obnoxiously misleading.
It has a bad paladin archetype for fighting outsiders, and three legitimately good feats vaguely related to fighting outsiders.
It has some Order of the Pike content for cavaliers, specifically
an archetype and an Order. The Order is alright, but the archetype is terrible. A small bonus to AC vs large creatures is not worth trading in your mount.
It has some feats for specific favored enemies that are actually decent, trying to incentive rangers to have a favored enemy other than humanoid (human).
It has some magical and non magical gear that is pretty useful, even if none of it is going to change how you play the game or replace the standard kit.
It has some spells that seem pretty useful at lower levels, and one single spell that should help any GM having trouble with psychic characters.

All in all, most of the archetypes aren't terrible, but they should have either been more specific with stronger/more interesting abilities(the druid archetypes could learn to turn into their enemies or negate some of their more common powers, for example) or more general.
The Disciple of the Pike archetype is garbage, and the paladin one is only a bit better.
The trophy rules are alright. The only way to give people(like me) who want rules for monster recycling ala Capcom's Mosnter Hunter would be do devote a full Companion to making the rules

Three stars, minus one because of how much I hate the order of the pike cavalier archetype and the oozemaster archetype. This book unfortunately doesn't have enough unique content in it for em to really justify recommend buying it, as if you really want to do a Monster Hunter style game were you kill and harvest all sorts of different beasties the trophy rules won't cover it, and if you want to fight a specific type of enemy there's better books for that.


too short

3/5

A lot of the other reviews make a lot of very good points. After reading through it, I do like the number of mechanical options presented, although I do find many of them a bit on the weak side, not particularly useful in many cases, or too specific.

The end result being that I'm probably not going to actually using much, if any the material, but it was not outright bad or terrible either. I think my biggest complaint is just how little the different classes, or even general builds actually get here, and that there is just far too much to that could be done, that this book does really even scratch the surface on the subject matter, especially in areas like for fighting Undead or Dragons, that while they have their own books, they likewise just where not enough.

Spells where pretty standard for what you would expect. Same with gear. Nothing really jumped out as particularly genius or cool, but likewise was not "meh" or insulting either.

I was disappointed how little there was for a "Fey Hunter", really of any build or concept. There is a Bard and a Druid archetype, but that's basically it. Outsider Hunters likewise just felt like it wasn't really touched on much, although the Paladin Archetype looks amazing.

The fluff and flavor was readable, but honestly I have very little interest in that aspect of the books, and it, like everything else was just far too little in what it brings to the setting/game considering the focus. However, as a Pathfinder Player's Guide product, it could have been a lot, lot worse. All in all, it's a nice little item for a quick afternoon read, but not one I would say is essential to play.


It's a book about fighting different types of monsters

5/5

This book is either gonna be a love it or hate it item, and for me I love it. It contains numerous options for going after different types of creatures as well as advice on how to handle said creature types. Are these options "niche"? For the most part they are but that isn't necessary a bad thing, and the family of feats that gives you a lot of incentive to take a Favored Enemy other than Human are nice.

Some highlights,

A feat that lets you track with Perception.

A feat that lets you use Knowledge skills against their corresponding creatures' stealth and disguise rolls and to track them.

I f++@ing love the Cavalier archetype because it is badass and gets rid of the horsey. I like Cavaliers, but I hate mounted stuff, so this is perfect for me, I can finally play a badass knight that hunts monsters.

There's a feat chain that let's you be a skinwalker (not the race, this is more of the I wear your skin to gain your power kind of thing).

A magical necklace that alerts you to the presence of the type of creature it is made from and gives different bonuses and abilities against depending on which body part it is made from.

A cheap magical whetstone that lets you bypass a certain amount of natural armor and makes your weapon deal more damage.


Super Specific Monster Hunter's Handbook

1/5

I think the best way to describe this book is "too focused". Not focused in the good way, where there's a strong thematic link between options and everything has a strong idea of what it’s supposed to accomplish, but focused in the same way Weapon Focus or Skill Focus is focused. Far too much of this book only applies against very specific creature types or situations (some of which you can even choose). Almost all the spells are either extremely situational or require you to specify a specific type of creature for the spell to work against, about half of the magic items and mundane equipment only functions against specific creatures chosen at the time of creation, and half of the archetypes become ineffective when not in a campaign that lets them fight very specific enemies. Even some of the options that aren’t super focused aren’t particularly great, like the Disciple of the Pike Cavalier which trades out their mount but for some reason still focuses super hard on charging with a lance/spear, and the vast majority of the feats which are either straight-up bad or just boring and not worth spending a feat on. Even the feats that SHOULD have been cool, like Dimensional Step-Up, completely falls flat outside of very specific circumstances. Tons of them function only if the monster attacking has a specific ability or uses a very specific tactic. Ironically, probably the best feats are the Focused Expertise feats which grant bonuses in every circumstance and grants an IMPROVED bonus against the chosen favored enemy type. Which is really how most of the options in the book should have functioned: grant a bonus that improves under a specific circumstance, not grant a bonus that only exists under a specific circumstance.

And speaking of bonuses that only exist under a specific circumstance, let’s talk about the trophy rules. The basic gist is that, after killing a creature, you can take its parts and create items (that fit into magic item slots) that grant you bonuses to a number of stats, and the bonuses increase based on the CR of the killed creature. Sounds pretty great, right? I agree. Oh, also it’s two feats deep into a chain, the first feat of which is really useless unless you’re an Alchemist or can otherwise craft things at super speed before the parts you collect rot into worthlessness. And the trophies themselves only last for a number of days, with a scaling DC which means having something last for a week is high-end skill focus. And the trophies themselves only grant a bonus against creatures of the same type. And if you didn’t craft them yourself (such as killing the creature, giving the bits to the party Wizard to craft, and then putting them on) you gain a reduced bonus and the trophies rot after 24 hours. And, again, they take magic item slots, which means you’re going to have to fight to fit them plus your other gear. Thankfully Monstrous Crafter exists, which can combine trophies with existing magic items and even makes the trophies last forever, right? Wrong. Unlike before the trophy benefits now become 1/day for one minute instead of constant, and it’s 4-5 feats deep since you require Monstrous Crafter, Grisly Ornament, Harvest Parts, Craft Wondrous Item, and (if you’re a non-caster type which is the kind of character that would MOST BENEFIT from the trophies) you also need to take Master Craftsman. At that point it’s half of your feats (or 1/4 of your feats for a Fighter), which is a huge investment for a character to make.

There are a few alright options, but it’s the minority in the book. Probably the most worthwhile thing is the Psychodermist, an Occultist archetype that can actually effectively use the incredibly underwhelming new trophy rules, but an entire book isn’t worth one archetype. Avoid this book.


Truly Terrible

1/5

I wish I could speak a word of praise about this book. There is none to be said. It is filled cover to cover with terrible, niche rules text that amounts of even more specialized versions of Favored Enemy.

If you thought there would be anything groundbreaking, instead of "+1/2/3/4 to X at levels A/B/C/D", "Knowledge Check Untrained, +1/2 level", or "Lose generally useful abilitiy, gain ability that functions only vs X/Y/Z thing or kind of thing", then you will walk away disappointed.

The much praised Cavlier Archetype is perhaps the worst offender, as it takes away your mount and forces you to engage in the same gameplay pattern (Übercharger), except without any of the benefits that make mounted charging good to begin with.

I am glad I got the PDF copy, because the softcover would have only been useable as very expensive toilet paper.


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Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Not much to it:

Harvest Parts:
You have to have a recently slain dead body, make a skill check.
You gain usable (but rotting) resources from that creature that you can use for crafting. Can't be sold.

Grisly Ornament:
Similar and building on Harvest Parts, you gain one or more temporary (rotting) ornaments (depending on body size) that gives a small morale bonus (depending on the CR of the dead body) to a statistic you can select during the crafting.

Monstrous Crafter:
You can make those ornaments be part of a wondrous item (and make them last as long as they are part of the item).

The Psychodermist has some of these baked into the Archetype as class features.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Anyone else here a little underwhelmed by the Order of the Hero? I like the edicts and the theme but the abilities by and large feel a little underpowered or underwhelming for the time you're getting them.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm the opposite, I think Hero is one of the best Orders I've seen.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Rysky wrote:
Disciple of the Pike is utterly Badass,

Definitely gonna make me one of these suckers, for sure.

Hmm, to Nodachi or not?


Rysky wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Disciple of the Pike is utterly Badass,

Definitely gonna make me one of these suckers, for sure.

Hmm, to Nodachi or not?

Pretty sure that if you're not fighting with a longspear made out of carnivorous fish you're doing it wrong.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jokey the Unfunny Comedian wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Disciple of the Pike is utterly Badass,

Definitely gonna make me one of these suckers, for sure.

Hmm, to Nodachi or not?

Pretty sure that if you're not fighting with a longspear made out of carnivorous fish you're doing it wrong.

*rolls eyes*

It's a lamprey, thank you very much.

Contributor

Rysky wrote:


It's a lamprey, thank you very much.

A 2nd level wizard spell that does bludgeoning damage instead of fire?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Andrew Mullen wrote:
Rysky wrote:


It's a lamprey, thank you very much.
A 2nd level wizard spell that does bludgeoning damage instead of fire?

???


Rysky wrote:
Jokey the Unfunny Comedian wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Disciple of the Pike is utterly Badass,

Definitely gonna make me one of these suckers, for sure.

Hmm, to Nodachi or not?

Pretty sure that if you're not fighting with a longspear made out of carnivorous fish you're doing it wrong.

*rolls eyes*

It's a lamprey, thank you very much.

What's wrong with fighting using a pike pike?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jokey the Unfunny Comedian wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Jokey the Unfunny Comedian wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Disciple of the Pike is utterly Badass,

Definitely gonna make me one of these suckers, for sure.

Hmm, to Nodachi or not?

Pretty sure that if you're not fighting with a longspear made out of carnivorous fish you're doing it wrong.

*rolls eyes*

It's a lamprey, thank you very much.

What's wrong with fighting using a pike pike?

Nothing.


Rysky wrote:
Jokey the Unfunny Comedian wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Jokey the Unfunny Comedian wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Disciple of the Pike is utterly Badass,

Definitely gonna make me one of these suckers, for sure.

Hmm, to Nodachi or not?

Pretty sure that if you're not fighting with a longspear made out of carnivorous fish you're doing it wrong.

*rolls eyes*

It's a lamprey, thank you very much.

What's wrong with fighting using a pike pike?
Nothing.

I suppose it could be difficult if one doesn't know Pike, or is in a pike position. And it could be crowded if you try to use it on a busy pike.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Andrew Mullen wrote:
Rysky wrote:


It's a lamprey, thank you very much.
A 2nd level wizard spell that does bludgeoning damage instead of fire?
???

I believe he's making a scorching ray vs. lamp-ray/lamprey joke.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I feel like the Trophies bit is a decent start. It is intriguing especially for the Psychodermist...just needs more possibilities other than general morale bonus. Would love to see things like a dragon fang short sword and so much more that smacks of MH series.

Absolutely LOVE the Green Scourge Druid! Way to make Shillelagh and Flame Blade relevant for....well, ever I guess!
Creature Focus...nice. Add some ranger-ness to any character?! Wow!
The traits are not just useful but such a thematic contribution to a character's backstory.

Revealing Light is a nice light spell...Guarding Knowledge is really cool.

Loved the content of this book, folks! The art is pretty good too--my favorite is the one of Adowyn and her wolf tracking...and a nice second is the surprise Ezren and Liselle are about to get...

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
I'm the opposite, I think Hero is one of the best Orders I've seen.

Care to explain? Like, I love the idea it presents of this monster hunter/defender of the people from godzilla but I feel like mechanically it kind of fails to uphold that as an order.

Like, the challenge, skills, and skill buff feel solidly built to facilitate that. Monster Expert seems really limited to a small pool of encounters that might not matter at all to a Hero cavalier that isn't fighting something with an AoE attack or trap dependent like say a fey or or magical beasts, Resist energy feels REALLY underpowered for both an 8th level power and the other limitations it gives (single energy resist 5 for one minute 1/day as a move action isn't that strong when I could run a barbarian and get effectively the same thing from say a scroll by 2nd), and Counterstriking Challenge is an interesting idea but its limited use, large+ target dependency, and Cha based Will save make it feel like something that will rarely get a chance to matter much outside of offering of a new AoO that you only get 1/day.

I end up feeling like all the abilities could use a little bit of an uptick to keep them comparable to power and thematic umph of other options presented by the other orders within the games mechanical context.

But again, I really do want to hear what gets you interested in it. Maybe there's some concept and game that it really shines with its own unique mechanics that I'm not seeing and can't be better handled by other orders and team aid.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Fourshadow wrote:

I feel like the Trophies bit is a decent start. It is intriguing especially for the Psychodermist...just needs more possibilities other than general morale bonus. Would love to see things like a dragon fang short sword and so much more that smacks of MH series.

Same. I kind of wish the power to harvest them and craft gear out of them was less a feat and more an expansion of some of the other rules as presented. Like just have it so that harvesting "materials for the purpose of your craft skill" was just the check that's presented here rather than a whole feat.

That said. The whole trophy's = mundane morale slot items is a really cool concept I would love to see in the future. Like having mundane items that grant morale bonuses because they are so famous for something like cutting through armor or protecting you from drowning that you get a morale bonus from the placebo effect. Be an awesome way to introduce magic item like feats that aid players but not as well as magic and further drive home a difference in quality distinction. And also keep more mundane gear viable as PCs increase levels.

Ooh... I'd love to see feats or something built around this concept! Like a combat feat that gives you morale bonuses on attack rolls with a specific weapon every time you make a crit but you lose them all (and maybe get a temporary penalty) if you nat 1. That could be cool.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And I've got my copy, so! A list of rules elements.

Monster Hunter's Handbook Rules Elements:
Archetypes: Abolisher (Inquisitor), Banishing Warden (Paladin), Defender of the True World (Druid), Disciple of the Pike (Cavalier), Green Scourge (Druid), Luring Piper (Bard), Oozemaster (Alchemist), Psychodermist (Occultist)

Alchemist Discoveries: Flesh-Eating Bomb*, Ooze Blight*, Splitting Mutagen

Cavalier Order: Order of the Hero

Equipment: beast-hunter whistle (5 gp), bottled musk (25 gp), chemical ward (25 gp), display stand (40 gp), hunter's manual (90 gp), monster bait (60 gp), monster dummy (10 gp), monster hunter's kit (202 gp), odor stalk (70 gp), poison sponge (150 gp), static wool (100 gp), taxidermy tools (80 gp), venomblock (60 gp), wrangler's gloves (20 gp)

Feats: Anatomical Savant (Combat), Baneful Judgment (Combat), Bull-Catcher Style (Combat, Style), Bull-Catcher Toss (Combat), Bull-Catcher Wrangle (Combat), Claw Wrench (Combat), Creature Focus, Dimensional Step Up, Expanded Hunter Tactics (Combat), Focused Aberration Expertise (Combat), Focused Animal Expertise (Combat), Focused Construct Expertise (Combat), Focused Dragon Expertise (Combat), Focused Fey Expertise (Combat), Focused Magical Beast Expertise (Combat), Focused Ooze Expertise (Combat), Focused Outsider Expertise (Combat), Focused Plant (Expertise), Focused Target (Combat), Focused Undead Expertise (Combat), Focused Vermin Expertise (Combat), Grisly Ornament, Harvest Parts, Improved Punishing Step (Combat), Knowledgeable Spellcaster, Maze Expert, Monster Spotter, Monstrous Crafter, Monstrous Disguise, Monstrous Masquerade, Needle in a Haystack, Pacify Animal, Punishing Step, Resisting Grappler (Combat), Shared Quarry (Combat), Stone to Flesh Savant

Magic Items: bone bearer's cutter (21,802 gp; none), detecting dart (2,000 gp; none), melding cloak (25,000 gp; shoulders), monstrous dye (2,250 gp; none), necklace of beast's might (varies, 6,000 gp to 12,000 gp; neck), nest revealer (500 gp, none), penetrating whetstone (2,000 gp; none), pocket prey (6000 gp; none)

Rogue Talents: Ambuscading Grapple, Armor Piercer*

Spells: diminish resistance (bard 2, cleric 2, inquisitor 2, magus 2, mesmerist 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2), guarding knowledge (alchemist 3, bard 3, cleric 3, inquisitor 2, occultist 3, psychic 3, sorcerer/wizard 3), huntmaster's spear (antipaladin 1, bloodrager 2, druid 2, inquisitor 2, magus 2, occultist 2, paladin 1, ranger 1, shaman 2), protection from natural attacks (alchemist 3, druid 4, psychic 4, ranger 2, shaman 4, spiritualist 3, summoner 3), repugnant taste (alchemist 3, bard 3, druid 4, mesmerist 3, ranger 3, shaman 4, witch 4), revealing light (bard 1, cleric 2, inquisitor 2, medium 1, psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 2), slick walls (bard 2, magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, summoner 2), solidify earth (cleric 2, druid 2, shaman 2, sorcerer/wizard 2), telepathic silence (medium 4, mesmerist 4, occultist 4, psychic 4, spiritualist 4)

Traits: Monster Challenger (Combat), Monster Scholar (Social), Monster Stalker (Social), Monster Survivor (Combat)

Some repeat information, but hopefully people will be intrigued regardless.

Sovereign Court

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Luthorne wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Andrew Mullen wrote:
Rysky wrote:


It's a lamprey, thank you very much.
A 2nd level wizard spell that does bludgeoning damage instead of fire?
???
I believe he's making a scorching ray vs. lamp-ray/lamprey joke.

I think we've all had enough of lampreys; I know I have.


Thank you Luthorne!

*looks over the feats* Wow. That's a lot feats for a 32 page book...


Franz Lunzer wrote:

Not much to it:

Harvest Parts:
You have to have a recently slain dead body, make a skill check.
You gain usable (but rotting) resources from that creature that you can use for crafting. Can't be sold.

Grisly Ornament:
Similar and building on Harvest Parts, you gain one or more temporary (rotting) ornaments (depending on body size) that gives a small morale bonus (depending on the CR of the dead body) to a statistic you can select during the crafting.

Monstrous Crafter:
You can make those ornaments be part of a wondrous item (and make them last as long as they are part of the item).

The Psychodermist has some of these baked into the Archetype as class features.

Neato thanks.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thomas Seitz wrote:

Thank you Luthorne!

*looks over the feats* Wow. That's a lot feats for a 32 page book...

Indeed! Three dozen feats, if I counted correctly.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:
Raisse wrote:

Best thing: Druid archetype that gets to add higher enhancements and bonus special abilities on shillelagh and flame blade at the cost of spell level increases.

Worst thing: Another published reference to an item that breaks the rules.

** spoiler omitted **

What's wrong with Potions of See Invisibility?
You can't make potions of personal or self-only spells.

Huh. Completely missed that. I wish a restriction that major wasn't in only a single sentence of the CRB.


Luthorne wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:

Thank you Luthorne!

*looks over the feats* Wow. That's a lot feats for a 32 page book...

Indeed! Three dozen feats, if I counted correctly.

Wow. That's more than some 64 page books.

Paizo Employee Starfinder Society Developer

9 people marked this as a favorite.

Glad to see a lot of you are enjoying the book! It was my first attempt at developing a Player Companion, and I probably couldn't have asked for a better team of freelancers whose work I could build upon. Also, having John Compton do a 2nd check over my work (not to mention all the help during my dev pass) really helped make this product turn into something pretty rad.

Anywho, just excited to see people enjoying the content!


You and the crew did excellent work Thurston. :) Major props.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It's awesome, Thursty :3

@Doc,

Monster Expert isn't limited to any specific abilities or creatures, pretty much any AOE that isn't a Will save you get the bonus on. Blaster Wizard? Bonus. Dragon with breath and spells? Bonus.

I can see why they set Resist Energy at 5 since it goes to 20, but the fact that you can select a different energy each time is nice (I never look at Class abilities, or really any ability, with the mindset of "Well if my caster buddy knows that exact spell and is nearby or if I have invested in UMD and have that exact spell in wand/scroll format handy then this ability doesn't do me any good",) which as a Cavalier with 2 friggin skill points ain't bad. Definitely see this as more of a movement ability or when you have chance to plan.

The large size requirement of Counterstrike Challenge isn't that bad since at level 15 you're probably fighting a bunch of stuff that size or bigger. The CHA based save isn't that bad since the rest of the Order's abilities are also CHA based (and 3 extra AoOs are even nicer if you don't have the DEX to really benefit from Combat Reflexes).


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Thurston Hillman wrote:

Glad to see a lot of you are enjoying the book! It was my first attempt at developing a Player Companion, and I probably couldn't have asked for a better team of freelancers whose work I could build upon. Also, having John Compton do a 2nd check over my work (not to mention all the help during my dev pass) really helped make this product turn into something pretty rad.

Anywho, just excited to see people enjoying the content!

Thanks for all your work Thursty!


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Aww man, cheap new mundane tools and gear! Yes please!

Also we haven't had any new rogue talents for a while, so I'm looking forward to taking a look at what they're all about.

Oozemaster sounds awesome too. I wasn't super excited about this book, but seeing the whole list of crunch suddenly has me fired up :>


What is splitting mutagen, and how badly should I want it?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rysky wrote:

It's awesome, Thursty :3

@Doc,

*excellent replies*

Dude thanks for the reply! I was worried that came off more catty than academically critical. Now, to responses!

Rysky wrote:
Monster Expert isn't limited to any specific abilities or creatures, pretty much any AOE that isn't a Will save you get the bonus on. Blaster Wizard? Bonus. Dragon with breath and spells? Bonus.

1.) The problem is again that what happens when your primary targets are things like Bullettes, Wyverns, Cockatrices, or other monsters that lack AOE abilities or trap filled lairs so to speak but still act as big monsters to hunt and can often be the center of a big monster hunt campaign? I think it's interesting but AOE focus makes it feel more like it's aimed at good vs. wizards/dragons than good vs. monsters, which seems to be what this order is designed to do. I feel like removing the AOE restriction or expanding the coverage to be based on subtype, size, or even Int score might make it a bit more thematic to an order who, "must fulfill any pledge he makes to slay a beast". Maybe say like animal, magical beast, dragon, Monstrous Humaniod, and creatures with say 6 Int or less or something like that. It also gives room for orders that get more specific and hunt say dragons, undead, or outsiders to exist rather than Hero having to fill all those rolls exclusively.

Second, the Cha dependency feels a bit misplaced here. I know it's something other orders have used but with many but here it feels less thematically appropriate than with many of the previous. This is a guy who's trained to hunt down monsters and works more like say a Knight trained ranger or the guy from even Dragonheart than someone who's powers stem from his force of personality like say, The Order of the Star or the Order of the Cockatrice.

The question becomes essentially do you believe that every Order of the Hero Cavalier must be Charismatic in order to do this job? Because by requiring Cha it locks Hero Cavaliers into some Cha at least in order to use even their very first ability. If they were to keep with the AOE only coverage maybe swap it for CON which seems more practical for the expectations of all the Order of the Hero cavaliers.

Rysky wrote:
I can see why they set Resist Energy at 5 since it goes to 20, but the fact that you can select a different energy each time is nice (I never look at Class abilities, or really any ability, with the mindset of "Well if my caster buddy knows that exact spell and is nearby or if I have invested in UMD and have that exact spell in wand/scroll format handy then this ability doesn't do me any good",) which as a Cavalier with 2 friggin skill points ain't bad. Definitely see this as more of a movement ability or when you have chance to plan.

2.) The problem is that the resistance 5 for 1 minute once a day, which for an 8th level power is incredibly low. Tieflings, Aasimar, all the geniekin, and goblin alchemists can all get this same amount by 5th at least for at most 1 favored points and classes like the Abjurer get nearly this exact same buff at 1st but lasts all day and can be changed each morning and on top of their spellcasting.

I think the problem is that the buff is good, and the restriction is good, but together they aren't. If we keep the buff make it all day and have it be selectable in the morning it would be solid. If you keep the restrictions and buff the bonus to make it like 10-20 so that, even though it only last a minute (and a full, unparsable one at that) Heroes now get one hell of a minute. 10 rounds of crazy unaided epic that gives your Cavalier a chance to shine while his party stands limp jawed. Cap it with immunity and you've got something.

Rysky wrote:
The large size requirement of Counterstrike Challenge isn't that bad since at level 15 you're probably fighting a bunch of stuff that size or bigger. The CHA based save isn't that bad since the rest of the Order's abilities are also CHA based (and 3 extra AoOs are even nicer if you don't have the DEX to really benefit from Combat Reflexes).

3.) This is one that I feel like is the closest to where it should be but is a bit under powered for what it's doing. The Cha for Will Save again limits this ability that's about being such a good monster slayer that you can interrupt and stifle monster special attacks to being something that is about force of personality rather than one that's about say, skill and martial training, which seems to be what it's aiming for thematically. It seems weird that my cavalier is stabbing the dragon so hard and then smiling with such charisma that it loses it's breath weapon. Switching it to be just flat full Cav lvl dependent, Str or Dex, or even 10+dmg from attack feels like a more accurate way to represent this and who would be at a greater advantage in stifling monster abilities for the Order as discussed.

Second, I think the Large+ distinction might do better as at least 1 size category larger instead. The challenge follows that logic and it feels right to have it be about over coming physically bigger challenges rather than ones that are locked to large+ and gives small characters some interesting advantages along with pushing the conversation of their difference in perspective based on being, ya know, less than 3ft. tall.

Finally maybe just make it a new action they can make with an AoO rather than something locked to a 1/day timer. As it stands they don't give you Combat Reflexes so it can't throttle everyone within reach into the ground on it's own and since there are no other AoO dependent abilities in the build PCs have to decide when to pick up the feat in order to really wring the most use out of it. From there, take the challenge buff and change it into something like they can use it up to 3 times a round against the challenge target. That gives the steroid a bit more power but still requires them to stay really on top of the enemy since they need to be in melee to get the AoO, drawing more attention from the enemy and much higher chance of being focused down.

Damn! Apparently my mousepad found it funny to throw up my post while I was typing it a few times. Excuse me while I get those lol.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
jedi8187 wrote:
What is splitting mutagen, and how badly should I want it?

If you like the split power of oozes than probably alot. Basically you make it so that you can prep your mutagen so that, on command, when you are hit by a piercing or slashing weapon you split into 2 people.

Now, you each have 1/2 your current hp and any finite items one of you uses is taken from your overall inventory and killing both of them kills you but, you get all your gear copied amongst the 2 of you save artifacts and you can at any time dissolve one of them and expose which one is you (your choice as to who).

This has a lot of really cool out of combat implications like say mutagening, splitting, and then using you and your clone to break into a castle from 2 different entry points; using the clone to make distractions, or say faking your death or foiling an assassination attempt by having your would be assassin kill your slimy clone rather than you. Some of this might be a little tricky due to the limited time power of mutagens and the fact that you have a "slimy appearance" but all feel completely plausible with the right skill checks and forethought.

Hope that helps man.

Ohh, you also do have to be 12th but for what you're getting that seems like a fair tradeoff.


doc the grey wrote:
jedi8187 wrote:
What is splitting mutagen, and how badly should I want it?

If you like the split power of oozes than probably alot. Basically you make it so that you can prep your mutagen so that, on command, when you are hit by a piercing or slashing weapon you split into 2 people.

Now, you each have 1/2 your current hp and any finite items one of you uses is taken from your overall inventory and killing both of them kills you but, you get all your gear copied amongst the 2 of you save artifacts and you can at any time dissolve one of them and expose which one is you (your choice as to who).

This has a lot of really cool out of combat implications like say mutagening, splitting, and then using you and your clone to break into a castle from 2 different entry points; using the clone to make distractions, or say faking your death or foiling an assassination attempt by having your would be assassin kill your slimy clone rather than you. Some of this might be a little tricky due to the limited time power of mutagens and the fact that you have a "slimy appearance" but all feel completely plausible with the right skill checks and forethought.

Hope that helps man.

Ohh, you also do have to be 12th but for what you're getting that seems like a fair tradeoff.

Thanks.That sounds awesome. Can your clones make clones?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
jedi8187 wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
jedi8187 wrote:
What is splitting mutagen, and how badly should I want it?

If you like the split power of oozes than probably alot. Basically you make it so that you can prep your mutagen so that, on command, when you are hit by a piercing or slashing weapon you split into 2 people.

Now, you each have 1/2 your current hp and any finite items one of you uses is taken from your overall inventory and killing both of them kills you but, you get all your gear copied amongst the 2 of you save artifacts and you can at any time dissolve one of them and expose which one is you (your choice as to who).

This has a lot of really cool out of combat implications like say mutagening, splitting, and then using you and your clone to break into a castle from 2 different entry points; using the clone to make distractions, or say faking your death or foiling an assassination attempt by having your would be assassin kill your slimy clone rather than you. Some of this might be a little tricky due to the limited time power of mutagens and the fact that you have a "slimy appearance" but all feel completely plausible with the right skill checks and forethought.

Hope that helps man.

Ohh, you also do have to be 12th but for what you're getting that seems like a fair tradeoff.

Thanks.That sounds awesome. Can your clones make clones?

Nope just the one. Still awesome though.


Splitting Mutagen sounds infinitely better than the similar but terrible Bilocation spell.


What's up with disciple of the pike and why is it awesome?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
doc the grey wrote:
jedi8187 wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
jedi8187 wrote:
What is splitting mutagen, and how badly should I want it?

If you like the split power of oozes than probably alot. Basically you make it so that you can prep your mutagen so that, on command, when you are hit by a piercing or slashing weapon you split into 2 people.

Now, you each have 1/2 your current hp and any finite items one of you uses is taken from your overall inventory and killing both of them kills you but, you get all your gear copied amongst the 2 of you save artifacts and you can at any time dissolve one of them and expose which one is you (your choice as to who).

This has a lot of really cool out of combat implications like say mutagening, splitting, and then using you and your clone to break into a castle from 2 different entry points; using the clone to make distractions, or say faking your death or foiling an assassination attempt by having your would be assassin kill your slimy clone rather than you. Some of this might be a little tricky due to the limited time power of mutagens and the fact that you have a "slimy appearance" but all feel completely plausible with the right skill checks and forethought.

Hope that helps man.

Ohh, you also do have to be 12th but for what you're getting that seems like a fair tradeoff.

Thanks.That sounds awesome. Can your clones make clones?
Nope just the one. Still awesome though.

It is awesome.

Though I think the duration is a little short.

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Alex Mack wrote:
What's up with disciple of the pike and why is it awesome?

Gets rid of mount dependency. Gets better at charging by itself and can charge through difficult terrain. Gets better at dodging bigger stuff and gets really good with spears and/or polearms, like, really good.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

@Doc, no worries ^w^

Will respond in a bit, on my way to work right now.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
Alex Mack wrote:
What's up with disciple of the pike and why is it awesome?
Gets rid of mount dependency. Gets better at charging by itself and can charge through difficult terrain. Gets better at dodging bigger stuff and gets really good with spears and/or polearms, like, really good.

Eww sounds like my Kind of Thing...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

@Doc,

1.a) While those three examples don't have AOEs I think there's enough monsters that do to justify the effect, especially given that it isn't restricted, as long as the ability is an AOE with a Fortitude or Reflex save. Would it be used all the time? No, of course not. But it would be nice when it does come up, especially against casters and dragons, which for True Dragons also tend to be casters. Giants also tend to be casters too.

1.b) I think it is justified going off the edicts which, while not requiring the Cavalier to be Good aligned, heavily lean towards it and them having a presence among the people. It is called Order of the Hero, not Order of the Hunter/Stalker.

1.c) Yes, at least for a little bit, they are Heroes after all. Not just good guys or even good guys at all, Heroes. Going off CON instead would be way too strong, given that you usually have a bunch being a frontliner.

2) Yes those things you mentioned have it at the beginning or better, but they can't change it on the fly, or at all, and for the races it doesn't increase at all. The Cavalier can plan on what they use it on and choose when they activate it, which in my eyes makes up for the slower progression.

3.a) You still get 3 AoOs regardless of your CHA, which pays for itself since you're getting them on things you normally wouldn't be getting them on. And I very much do think it is about force of personality (going off the smiling example, you don't have to do that or be good looking or whatnot, Killing Intent would also go off force of personality) since it's made for the Cavalier.

The Fighter has the martial Training, the Rogue has skill, the Ranger has a mix of both, but the Cavalier to me is at it's base the martial class that isn't Divine that goes off force of personality. Look at it's Challenge, Banner, Tactician, and Teamwork abilities.

3.b) Eh, I can see why they kept it at large to go off "Monsters" rather than let small races and Mediums with access to shrink person get up to some odd shenanigans against other Medium sized creatures.

3.c) Um, I don't quite understand what you were talking about/suggesting here. I like the ability as is since you get AoOs on things you would never otherwise get AoOs on. If the AoO manages to drop them then the secondary effect is kinda pointless anyway, and you're gonna surprise a bunch of creatures with being able to hit them when they thought they were safe. That's the real draw for me, the chance at snuffing out the ability they were trying to do? Eh.

Silver Crusade

Alex Mack wrote:
What's up with disciple of the pike and why is it awesome?

Allows you to roleplay Monty Python Arthurian knights.


Luthorne wrote:

And I've got my copy, so! A list of rules elements.

** spoiler omitted **...

Looks like there is some serious crunch in this book and a lot of it. Lore vs crunch estimate anyone?

The following is very interesting: Oozemaster (Alchemist)
Alchemist Discoveries: Flesh-Eating Bomb*, Ooze Blight*, Splitting Mutagen

Time for a jacked out gas mask wearing alchemist that chucks flesh eating bombs at people then punches their rotting bodies to pieces in a steroidal rage.

Contributor

Luthorne wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Andrew Mullen wrote:
Rysky wrote:


It's a lamprey, thank you very much.
A 2nd level wizard spell that does bludgeoning damage instead of fire?
???
I believe he's making a scorching ray vs. lamp-ray/lamprey joke.

Sometimes the best jokes are the ones that no one laughs at!


What I've been hearing about the Order of the Pike, that druid archetype that improves shillelagh and flame blade, and the monster masquerade feats makes me want to get this book just for them.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

They good.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Splitting Mutagen sounds infinitely better than the similar but terrible Bilocation spell.

Splitting mutagen only lasts a round, and you gain a negative level if one dies. It's still a very cool ability that I might choose, but not crazy or game-changing.

Since it triggers on S/P damage, I see its main use as being able to withdraw from a scary enemy and full attack at the same time. Or if you're feeling bold, make a double full-attack on the thing that just hit you.

My only question is whether or not you get the clone's half of your hp back after you split. From how I read it, I don't think you do.


Any info on Bull-Catcher Style? And Dimensional Step Up?


Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:
Any info on Bull-Catcher Style? And Dimensional Step Up?

Bull-Catcher Style lets you ready an action to grapple under certain circumstances that allows you to shut down a pounce, only allowing them to make one natural attack at the end of a charge.

Dimensional Step Up allows you to combine Dimensional Agility and Step Up once a day, letting you follow someone who teleports away, though not if they're going to another plane. You don't get to know where they're actually teleporting to, though...

Edit: Bull-Catcher Toss and Bull-Catcher Wrangle are hilarious, though.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Luthorne wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Any info on Bull-Catcher Style? And Dimensional Step Up?

Bull-Catcher Style lets you ready an action to grapple under certain circumstances that allows you to shut down a pounce, only allowing them to make one natural attack at the end of a charge.

Edit: Bull-Catcher Toss and Bull-Catcher Wrangle are hilarious, though.

How hilarious are we talking here? And how super-specific is the Style feat in its use? Like, is it actually "when an enemy with pounce charges you, you can do this"? Or can you use it to grapple any charging enemy?

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