Mass combat comes into play in Chapter Two, and fairly early on. I know this to be true. Just FYI to be helpful.
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I hope it doesn't get overdone though. We get it, inclusiveness is good, just don't beat me over the head with it. I'm cool with everyone loving everyone but some moderation makes it feel more organic and less forced. I hope that didn't make me sound like a hater. I'm really not.Another lesbian couple eh? I really appreciate Paizo's inclusion of LGBT characters, but come on - where are the gay men? Sigh.There's a couple in the 2nd adventure. Never fear!All I can say is that I don' think it's been overdone... but my/Paizo's take on what is and isn't "overdone" will vary wildly when compared to the customers' takes.
In the end, it's up to each GM how to handle things like relationships in their games, or how those relationships are organized.
But being inclusive is a big deal for us at Paizo, and including GLBT characters in adventures is important, since that helps raise awareness and promotes inclusivity. And it's something we're going to keep doing as we head into the future!
It looks like the GLBT has become the central focus of this AP. It's a current hot topic that not everyone can agree on, in and outside of this forum. I have no problem with the GLBT war for equality. However, I question the time and place of this battle.
Everyone loves Paizo's creations, that's why many like myself have spent well over a thousand dollars on their product. Its fun to turn off reality and step into a good story every now and again. That's why it saddens me to see this game turned into a bandstand for the current GLBT social movement. If this topic is one that will cause discord within the Paizo family and distract from the product so many love paying for, why force it.
With that being said, I love and accept you all for who you are... great game designers!
Maybe a little discord is necessary. Maybe Anevia and Irabeth are interesting characters with slightly unusual backstories (except maybe their backstories, in a world that we already know is fairly accepting of same-sex relationships, that's filled with magic that can change someone's sex, aren't really THAT unusual - the potion that Anevia used to transform herself wasn't called out as being unheard-of or experimental, just expensive). Certain Japanese lit theories aside, drama requires conflict - and effective dramas create conflict with the reader as well as within themselves.
I support Paizo's desire to write characters who don't fit into the hetero white male conqueror mold (who have very seldom in history been as hetero, as white, or as male as the hagiographies we've written about them). Maybe - just maybe - tabletop gaming is ready to turn over the rock of what it is that gender exactly means, anyway, and explore what's on the bottom.
Ultimately, as James Jacobs said in this very thread, the way to end the idea that characters who aren't straight white males are pushing an Issue is not to avoid creating them, but to keep writing characters who aren't, so that they're seen as nothing other than another valid character option.
Definitely agree with that.
The NPCs in question don't take up as much of the forefront as the other NPCs, especially the tragic story of the nobleman that you are stuck with. Now THAT is an interesting NPC that your players will love to hate, while simultaneously feeling bad for him if they learn of his past.
The Riftwarden is probably, to me, the least interesting. But certainly cool.
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Maybe a little discord is necessary. Maybe Anevia and Irabeth are interesting characters with slightly unusual backstories (except maybe their backstories, in a world that we already know is fairly accepting of same-sex relationships, that's filled with magic that can change someone's sex, aren't really THAT unusual - the potion that Anevia used to transform herself wasn't called out as being unheard-of or experimental, just expensive). Certain Japanese lit theories aside, drama requires conflict - and effective dramas create conflict with the reader as well as within themselves.
I support Paizo's desire to write characters who don't fit into the hetero white male conqueror mold (who have very seldom in history been as hetero, as white, or as male as the hagiographies we've written about them). Maybe - just maybe - tabletop gaming is ready to turn over the rock of what it is that gender exactly means, anyway, and explore what's on the bottom.
Ultimately, as James Jacobs said in this very thread, the way to end the idea that characters who aren't straight white males are pushing an Issue is not to avoid creating them, but to keep writing characters who aren't, so that they're seen as nothing other than another valid character option.
I personally thought it would have been pretty cool to play up the Half-Orc aspect more, as well as the Human & Half-Orc relationship. There are a few other things about Irabeth's backstory (father and the price of the potion), I am pretty interested in learning more about, but at the same time I don't want to spoiler things to much. At the same time, I can pretty easily see some potential conflict coming (unneeded), for example if a character is a follower of Erastil might have some issues (and probably be right to do so within the context of the setting).
I'm also a bit curious
One other issue I did sort of have is that (once again, this is not something new at all with Paizo), it seems that they have taken most of the "best" characters and filled their roles with the "non-hetero males". We have a handful of major NPC's.
1.) Anevia: strong female(ish)
2.) Aravashnial: weak, handicapped male, might be able to aid later in a peripheral way. is supposed to be convinced to sit this one out, and kind of a feminized male character.
3.) Horgus Gwerm: designed to be annoying, undesirable, and obtuse, your only other hetero male common and obviously not a role model.
4.) Irabeth: again strong female, baggage but sort of the true hero and ideal individual as well as noted for being the spiritual guide and heart for the part if they have any moral issues.
5.) Queen Galfrey: one of the noted "another woman warrior to show the setting is gender indiscriminate", but lacks any real contrasts.
6.) Sosiel Vaenic: last priest of Shelyn in the area, not entirely sure why Shelyn is even prominent in the area, as she doesn't seem to fit?
7.) Aron Kir: construction worker of sorts, seems like a tertiary, background character role?
8.) Arueshalae: risen succubus, probably extremely powerful and cool
10.) Desna/Shelyn: not sure what (or how important) role they will play, but neither really seem to fit here. I do sort of question why other powers wouldn't be mentioned though, particularly Ragathiel, but also others such as Erastil, and to lesser extents Sarenrae, Torag, Apsu, Groetus, Milani (maybe), Jaidz, Dalenydra, and Arqueros would all seem to have more of a calling and following in the area, and interest in crusading.
Now, that being said, I am pretty interested in seeing how things play out and where it goes down the way. All in all, I DO think it is pretty cool, and I DO plan on continuing to buy and running the AP.
I didn't see Aravashnial as weak...
as for strong male characters, IIRC there is also the potential that the mongrelman Lann will join your party, who is depicted as a pretty capable male NPC
How is discussing homosexuality in regards to this specific product any less "on topic" than, for example, discussing mass combat or downtime in relation to this product? Now granted, a few people earlier had taken it off the topic of this product into a more general outlook, but really, for the most part it is really about this product and pretty much the definition of "on topic".
The intent is more or less to not let it get derailed into a general discussion that goes outside the realm of discussing the product, not to discourage discussion. :)
I actually found Horgus Gwerm to be an interesting and compelling character beyond his initial annoyance, especially after reading his tragic back story. He has some room for growth that I think could be done well.
I also don't see Aravashnial as weak. Disabled, yes, but he's still using his strength as a Riftwarden to aid the PCs in escaping the underground area.
And while there is certainly a large concentration of different strong NPCs that maybe aren't hetero or male, there are certain a large amount of NPCs in previous adventure paths that run both the "fantasy standard" as well as different kinds of people. Which to me is fine. I like having all kinds of people as NPCs, both heroes and villains. That's why I'm alright with inclusion of all types.
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I wish I knew anything about these characers...
As a SWM who has, for the most part up until now played more on the martial side of the martial/caster divide, I don't particularly find Aravashnial either 'weakened' or 'feminized' by the events. He's blind, yes & that hinders his casting ability but not nearly as much as if the blow had done some neural damage ala Feeblemind or such-like. I'm not even going to respond to the 'feminized' statement because that is going to go nowhere good & that fast.
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err...
As far as being weak goes, he is probably more useful to the PC's than Anevia, who can maybe use here bow, and that is about it. She certainly won't be sneak attacking, or scouting for the party, all useful rogue things. In contrast, the wizard has several spells memorized that could be of use to the PC's and which are beyond their casting level as starting PCs
And honestly they should all be pretty weakened. If Anevia and Aravashnial are weakened, it's because a level 3 and level 6 PC classed characters are pretty much going to render the level 1 characters pointless
And again...think about how this character was weakened. He took a frigging balor whip, a whip wielded by the Storm King himself, to the face. The fact he is even alive after that, or conscious, is pretty amazing. Sounds pretty "manly" to me
We're starting to veer a little off a bit here.
I understand that the topic can be uncomfortable, but I have largely said my piece and I think everyone in the last series of exchanges, including Mead, has been civil. But I agree with "Devil's Advocate" that this is no less off-topic than discussing mass combat and other things in this AP.
For GMs who want to explore this territory, I think the gender identity of the two NPCs here is an interesting potential source of conflict in the story:
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Well people have opinions.. if they make you feel nauseous, you maybe need to have a doctor check you out. There could be a real problem there.
In the interest of civility on these boards, I have to point out that this is not cool. You should consider that my feeling nauseous might POSSIBLY have been because of what was implied in certain posts, which I did point out in my post, and not just conclude that I have a mental sickness that needs treatment.
You should have actually countered the point I made -- that the first inclusion of a transgender character is viewed as "forced" when the inclusion of heterosexual characters is not -- instead of dismissed everything I said because I was being emotional.
It's perfectly normal and fine to get emotional about social topics such as this one, on both sides, so long as we try to maintain some civility. To pretend otherwise would be to not be completely honest.
Feeling nauseous over people's opinions is usually not normal. There was nothing wrong with any opinions on either side of the discussion. But you had to go the "it makes me feel nauseous' route.
I apologize if I made you feel even worse. But the hypocritical stuff pisses me off, and as a paying customer I am allowed to post my opinion. More to the point, I was even told by someone on your side of the discussion that if a person has a right to say something, he has a right to confront it. Well guess what? So do I.
You may not think it feels forced. That is your right. But to others it does. That is our right. It didn't seem to me like it was an organic, natural background... and other than the actually switching gender, which was glossed over... wasn't even very unique.. And was a bit boring. It felt like it was thrown in there for one reason...
I would have had less issues if it had been done right. Just as I have had no issues with any other LGBT characters Paizo has done.
We're starting to veer a little off a bit here.I understand that the topic can be uncomfortable, but I have largely said my piece and I think everyone in the last series of exchanges, including Mead, has been civil. But I agree with "Devil's Advocate" that this is no less off-topic than discussing mass combat and other things in this AP.
For GMs who want to explore this territory, I think the gender identity of the two NPCs here is an interesting potential source of conflict in the story:
** spoiler omitted **
As I said, I do apologize if I made you feel bad with my earlier reply.
I'm confused... why was my post deleted when I was the one agreeing with Lambertz? O.o
Ah well that makes sense, no prob. :D
I like seeing the mongrelmen here as mole people. When I read the adventure, I got a real Futurama mutations vibe from them. Maybe if I run, I'll have a certain one-eyed, violet-haired female monk mongrelman meet the party ;)
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Littlestump,
Rather than poking the bag, could you perhaps produce your evidence for the rather strange assertion that "these themes" are central to the AP? I mean, clearly you see something in there that I don't.I did poke the bag, his post was intolerant toward others and appears it has been removed. It was also a perfect example of the discord this topic has produced.
Now lets produce some evidence...two main NPCs which should be kept alive and will help you throughout the AP.
It appears that Paizo sells to many who would champion the GLBT cause, and that's just fine. However including this topic that not all agree on seems to have overshadowed a great piece of work. Again I'm not against the topic just the time and place.
Which begs the question: when is the time and place?
I'm interested as well to know if you are against the civil treatment of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people?
Which begs the question: when is the time and place?
I'm interested as well to know if you are against the civil treatment of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people?
That's quite a stretch to even think he is implying he isn't for civil treatment of LGBT.
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Wow to some of the comments here. Speaking from the perspective of a gay man, I find it completely "forced" to see so many heterosexual characters predominating in fantasy fiction. That just doesn't reflect the reality that exists!
How many transgendered characters can we point to in the Adventure Paths that have appeared before? I cannot remember any. I wonder how I would feel if I were transgendered myself, to see this AP and think "Wow, there is an acknowledgment I exist!", and then to come on these boards and see others in the RPG gaming community say that the mere inclusion (the first!) of a person like me is "forced."
I literally feel somewhat nauseous reading some of these comments.
Well said. We finally get a bit of representation in Fantasy RPGs and there are those here acting like it's some sort of affrontery, or offensive.
Thanks for making me feel like I don't belong in a community.
Well said. We finally get a bit of representation in Fantasy RPGs and there are those here acting like it's some sort of affrontery, or offensive.Thanks for making me feel like I don't belong in a community.
You certainly belong to the community, the same as the rest of us. Are we to keep quiet about our concerns just to make you feel better? That doesn't make me feel like part of the community, ya know? So I can certainly buy the AP, but I'm not allowed to comment on what I may not like in it without upsetting people... that sort of thing....
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Well said. We finally get a bit of representation in Fantasy RPGs and there are those here acting like it's some sort of affrontery, or offensive.Thanks for making me feel like I don't belong in a community.
You certainly belong to the community, the same as the rest of us. Are we to keep quiet about our concerns just to make you feel better? That doesn't make me feel like part of the community, ya know? So I can certainly buy the AP, but I'm not allowed to comment on what I may not like in it without upsetting people... that sort of thing....
*checks Mead's profile*
I'm sure if Paizo would put a pagan (as in Odin and Loki and stuff) character (Earth exists in Golarionverse, remember? There are guys cheering to Thor and Freya out there) you wouldn't feel all that great about people saying "this doesn't belong here, please remove it, this is promoting Pagan agenda! It's bad enough that I have to endure the fact that Pagans exist, why do you rub it in my face?".
*checks Mead's profile*
I'm sure if Paizo would put a pagan (as in Odin and Loki and stuff) character you wouldn't feel all that great about people saying "this doesn't belong here, please remove it, this is promoting Pagan agenda!".
That's an odd attempt at a comparison.
1. I wouldn't care, but that would be wierd to cut out the game's gods. Though in my homebrew world I build for fun.. there are no true gods... which is why I am happy for Mythic Adventures to be out. They are all powerful humanoids. Divine Source FTW!
Edit: OK, not entirely true. The ultimate "villains" are the Great Old Ones.
2. It isn't even close to paganism/heathenism. I know the difference between fantasy and reality.
3. I play games that have nothing "pagan" in them. I play characters that have nothing to do with "paganism".
In fact, I have played in a single Pathfinder game... and my character was basically atheist.
I should also point out. I never said remove it. I stated that I didn't like this particular implementation. It just didn't work. It seemed tacked on.
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*checks Mead's profile*
I'm sure if Paizo would put a pagan (as in Odin and Loki and stuff) character you wouldn't feel all that great about people saying "this doesn't belong here, please remove it, this is promoting Pagan agenda!".
That's an odd attempt at a comparison.
1. I wouldn't care, but that would be wierd to cut out the game's gods. Though in my homebrew world I build for fun.. there are no true gods... which is why I am happy for Mythic Adventures to be out. They are all powerful humanoids. Divine Source FTW!
Edit: OK, not entirely true. The ultimate "villains" are the Great Old Ones.
2. It isn't even close to paganism/heathenism. I know the difference between fantasy and reality.
3. I play games that have nothing "pagan" in them. I play characters that have nothing to do with "paganism".
In fact, I have played in a single Pathfinder game... and my character was basically atheist.
I should also point out. I never said remove it. I stated that I didn't like this particular implementation. It just didn't work. It seemed tacked on.
My comparison was abstract, so maybe I should keep it abstract:
If there was some defining element of your identity that could be translated to a fantasy world, would you enjoy people telling you to keep it played down?
If you're white, would you think the question "why are even any people presented as white in the books unless there are special reasons for that?" holds any water? Or perhaps do you consider the point "having most NPCs white is promoting white supremacist agenda?" as valid? (I'm not assuming anything, just asking what you think).
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I would like to see Paizo's internal notes on how LGBTQ+ characters fit into Golarion, sometime and somehow... not that I ever expect to see them published in a formal book anywhere (a girl can dream, though...), but we've seen enticing hints here and there.
I've written up a for-personal-use list of the deities of Golarion I think would be particularly trans friendly and I sometimes wonder how it matches up to Paizo's.
(If Anevia's devotions are any indicator, though, I bet there's a fairly close confluence between my list and Paizo's)
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My comparison was abstract, so maybe I should keep it abstract:
If there was some defining element of your identity that could be translated to a fantasy world, would you enjoy people telling you to keep it played down?
If you're white, would you think the question "why are even any people presented as white in the books unless there are special reasons for that?" holds any water? Or perhaps do you consider the point "having most NPCs white is promoting white supremacist agenda?" as valid? (I'm not assuming anything, just asking what you think).
I have played Legend of the 5 Rings. A character being White is not necessary either. So no. I really wouldn't care. There is no part of my life or existence that I feel needs to be translated into every game. Nor would I jump on a person for stating that they feel it wasn't the best implementation of it regardless. Using Legend of the 5 Rings above. If I saw that they were trying to put Gaijin in every single book... I would think it is just as forced. If the Gaijin in particular looked tacked on to make White people happy... I would feel the same was as I do this.
That being said... no I don't think having most NPCs White promotes "white supremacist" agenda. It depends on the game... and on the story.
Take Hellfrost.... except in the new Lands of Fire expansion, the humans are all white. Does that make it a "white supremacist" game?
My issue in this case is less the LGBT aspect, and more of the implementation. I didn't like the characters themselves.
Of course, I said really early on that is easily changed... and that I would still give the issue at least a 3. Not everyone has to enjoy every aspect of every product. And people are allowed to voice why they feel what they do about a product.
The problem is in this day and age, if you don't tow the PC party line entirely, you get jumped on by those that claim they are better because they are more tolerant.
Right now, the tolerance is at such a low level, that I am starting to regret my purchase. I'd actually lower my stars in a review to 2, just based on the community surrounding the product.
I look forward to see the implementation in issue 2. But right now I am wondering if buying it would be a complete waste of money.
I've only given it a once over myself; I'm waiting for a more in-depth examination until my delivery comes (hopefully early this week), but I liked it.
As I mentioned earlier, I really liked some of the artwork in the adventure, especially the Mongrelman female, which was very well done.
I also thought the Mythic empowerment scene- that was pretty dramatic and well done; it definitely gives an epic sense to the climax of the adventure. When I first saw the CR for that final encounter, I was like- "huh? Even with 1 tier of mythic, that seems really high," but the way it gets pulled off actually really works.
Subscribed :)
I can't wait to read this!!
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Is this how people who 'don't champion' LGBT stuff try to keep LGBT out of sight? By kicking up a fuss when they see it?
It seems to me like Sandpoint has a retired paladin who provides a potential NPC mentor and lends an air of respectability to Sandpoint's trade.
He is the kind of person who is ageing and well-liked so when he tries (badly) to conceal a relationship everyone just plays along indulgently.
That's how I read it.
Other people read the entry and went ZOMG-terribad-GAY character! Shock! Panic!
I'm concerned that those people are forgetting the most important rule.